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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Thursday, 25 Jun 2009

Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009: Committee Stage.

The meeting has been convened for the purpose of considering Committee Stage of the Companies (Amendment) 2009. I welcome the Minister of State and his officials, Mr. Vincent Madigan and Ms Claire Gordon, and I thank them for their attendance.

Item No. 2.1 is correspondence that was circulated prior to the meeting. It relates to the deferral of the compliance legislation until September.

It is proposed that Committee Stage of this Bill be considered until 3 p.m. If we have not completed it by then, a further meeting will be arranged. Is that agreed? Agreed.

SECTION 1.

Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 are related to amendment No. 1 and all may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 36 and 37, to insert the following:

" "Act of 2008" means the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008;

"Director" means the Director of Corporate Enforcement established under the Corporate Law Enforcement Act 2001;

"Minister" means the Minister for Finance;".

Currently, the Director of Corporate Enforcement only has the power to investigate breaches of company law in registered companies. This does not include credit unions and building societies, including the Irish Nationwide Building Society, INBS. Responsibility for the investigation into INBS lies with IFSRA and the Financial Regulator. Most of us have been dissatisfied with the performance of the regulator to date and we have more confidence in the Office of Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, to investigate breaches of the law in building societies and credit unions. The amendments would extend the remit of the ODCE to conduct such investigations.

We have discussed this issue on a number of occasions and it was also raised in the Seanad and on Second Stage in the Dáil. I understand the intent of the series of amendments. The primary intent is the insertion of a new section 9 in the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008 to allow the Minister for Finance to request the ODCE to undertake an investigation into a matter of urgent public importance arising from the affairs of a relevant credit institution.

In this regard, the Deputy's amendment seeks to provide that a relevant credit institution means a body, which is not a company incorporated under the Companies Acts but which has been specified by order made by the Minister for Finance under section 6(1) of the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008. To date, seven bodies and associated entities have been specified under this provision in three separate orders, at least two of which appear not to be companies. Others may be specified by future ministerial order made under the relevant section. In so far as the proposed new section 9 would enable the Minister to request the ODCE to undertake an investigation into a body specified under section 6(1) of the 2008 Act that is not a company, it follows that a similar power would not be available to seek an appointment in respect of a specified body in a company. This seems to implicitly accept that in respect of other companies, which are companies registered in Ireland, the ODCE already has a role in regard to them.

The Minister has indicated a full review of the financial regulatory authorities in the State is under way. He announced the establishment of a Central Bank commission recently and said this area is under ongoing review. The ODCE is in place to detect breaches of company law. The Financial Regulator and IFSRA have the authority to investigate breaches by building societies, credit unions and so on in line with the Acts governing them. The amendments are not necessary and it would not benefit anybody to transfer the powers of inspection from one agency to another, given the ODCE is specifically set up for investigations into breaches of company law. I do not see merit in the amendments for the reasons I outlined in the Seanad and on Second Stage in the House. I cannot accept them.

When a full review has been completed of financial regulation, the regulator and so on and the Central Bank commission has been established, it will provide the necessary confidence to ensure that building societies and credit unions that cannot be investigated by the ODCE will be covered if the Deputy has concerns about powers of enforcement.

I recognise both sides of the argument and it would be cleaner and make more sense if the ODCE dealt solely with breaches of the Companies Acts. A Pandora's box could be opened if the office was given the authority to carry out investigations into bodies that are not companies and that are covered by other legislation.

The intent of the amendments is to highlight the dissatisfaction and lack of confidence of my party and I in the work of the Financial Regulator to date and the way that body carried out its functions. I am dissatisfied that this body will be responsible for investigating breaches of the law in building societies and other credit institutions. However, the Minister for Finance informed the committee that a full review is under way.

He announced a review of financial regulatory enforcement some time ago.

I hope that comes to similar conclusions to mine on replacing certain people in that office and strengthening its powers. On that basis, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.

I fully understand the point behind Deputy Varadkar's amendments. I share his concern. I appreciate the Minister of State's reply and wanted to hear it before I commented. The mess that has been created through the lack of implementation of regulation is very worrying. There was a capacity for some regulation, but it was not exercised and that is a concern. On a number of occasions the Minister for Finance has stated clearly that a review of the whole regulatory regime is taking place within his Department and that it is consulting internationally on that matter. That should give us some reason for hope. Nevertheless, it was meritorious of Deputy Varadkar to invest his time and energy in producing these amendments. If nothing else, they at least mark the card.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,
Amendment No. 2 not moved.
Section 1 agreed to.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Sections 2 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 8.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 11, to delete lines 38 to 47 and in page 12, to delete lines 1 to 4.

I feel strongly about this important amendment. One of the advances in the legislation before us is that loans made on preferential terms to directors must now be published. We are all familiar with the Seán FitzPatrick case where the loan was effectively taken off the books for a day so it would not have to be published. This legislation will stop that happening again. However, it only operates in the case of loans made to directors and not for preferential loans made to persons connected with directors. I understand this group is tightly defined in company law and covers spouses and immediate family. That is a smaller group than the group covered by the ethics in public office legislation which applies to us and gifts or donations to our family and friends. I believe preferential loans made to connected persons should be published, not just to the shareholders, but in the annual account.

Under the proposed legislation this will only be done in aggregate. We will get details of loans that are made to directors. However, if loans are made to five wives, four husbands and two sons of directors, we will only be told the loans were made to 11 connected persons for a total aggregate amount. This opens a huge loophole whereby people who concealed loans to directors in the past can continue to do so by means of preferential loans to connected persons such as wives, husbands, sons and daughters. That should be published.

Let us take Anglo Irish Bank as an example. We can now have a situation where a loan could be made to the wife, husband, son or daughter of a current director, but the only person who would be made aware of that would be the shareholder, Deputy Brian Lenihan. Everybody else would be forbidden that information. It is for that reason this amendment should be accepted.

I appreciate that in view of the example to which he referred, the Deputy wants to press this amendment to ensure the greater disclosure of loans and other similar types of transactions to persons connected with directors of licensed banks that fall within the scope of section 31 of the Companies Act 1990. I am also very conscious of the need to respect how ordinary business is conducted in the everyday world.

In this regard, given that the making of loans is part and parcel of the ordinary business of banking, I would be reluctant to require in company law disclosure through the accounts of companies that are licensed banks, particulars of individual loans to such parties. I believe the body best placed to make a judgment as to what would be appropriate best practice and most appropriate disclosure requirements is the Financial Regulator. It already has a power to insist on disclosure of the type of loans to which the Deputy referred if it deems that necessary. I am satisfied this is a call that should be left to the regulator.

That said, I would like to explain that the principal reason the special provisions applying to companies which are licensed banks were included in the first instance in the Companies Act 1990 was the necessity at the time of introduction of these provisions, which were essentially introducing restrictions, to also include what were considered at the time to be appropriate reliefs. Since the enactment of those provisions in the Companies Act 1990, there have been significant regulatory developments including, in particular, the establishment of the Financial Regulator through the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Acts 2003 and 2004, the remit of which is to focus specifically on the supervision and regulation of financial entities. The grounding legislation enables the Financial Regulator to attach conditions to licences. I understand the Financial Regulator is considering the imposition of requirements with regard to disclosure of relevant details of loans provided for persons connected with directors of licensed banks.

In addition, there have been significant developments with regard to the regulatory framework relating to the preparation of annual accounts of financial entities such that they are now dedicated requirements with a basis in EU directives specifically for these financial entities. These regulations relating to accounting matters of financial entities are made by the Minister for Finance. It would be my intention to have the specific requirements relating to licensed banks contained in Part 3 of the Companies Act 1990 migrated to the relevant Finance Acts and regulations at the earliest possible opportunity.

I accept that in the meantime the provisions cannot simply be repealed. Accordingly, they must be maintained in the Companies Act, but in a manner that addresses the shortcomings that were identified earlier this year. That is the purpose of the amendments to sections 41 and 43 of the Companies Act 1990 contained in section 8 of the Bill before us. I would like to emphasise two particular points relating to these amendments in so far as they apply to persons connected with directors of licensed banks which are companies. The first point is that the aggregate amounts to be disclosed will now include the aggregate maximum amount outstanding during the relevant reporting period, as well as the number of persons for whom relevant transactions were made. Section 8(2) of this Bill will now insert new subsections in the Companies Act 1990 to accommodate this.

The second point is that section 44 of the Companies Act 1990, as amended by section 9 of the Bill before us, will require disclosure on an individual basis in respect of loans to connected persons of directors of licensed banks which are made on "favourable terms". This disclosure will be made through the statement which is required to be prepared under section 43(3) and must be made available 15 days prior to, and also at, the AGM of the licensed bank in question.

All these provisions are without prejudice to any more detailed or stringent requirements the Financial Regulator might impose. For those reasons, I regret I cannot accept the amendment. I understand the Deputy's concerns, but the evolvement of the review should reassure him. Equally, as demonstrated by section 44 of the Companies Act 1990, there is a requirement to disclose where there are favourable terms.

I am disappointed with the Minister of State's response. What we are talking about are loans made on a favourable basis, sweetheart loans made to people who are connected to directors, specifically relatives. Under this legislation, we will only be told there are seven such people but not who they are or how they are connected. We will be told how much they have borrowed altogether, but that is not real information. The Minister of State's response was misleading because the disclosure he mentioned is disclosure to the shareholders, but not in the public accounts. For example, the only shareholder in Anglo Irish Bank is the Minister for Finance and he would be the only person who would have the information.

I was not misleading, I was just stating the facts. The information is published at the AGM.

Who could attend the Anglo Irish Bank, apart from Deputy Brian Lenihan?

A register must be maintained and a statement must be made for shareholders.

If there were an investigation, the investigating people would be able to access it, which is the purpose of retaining the register.

Other shareholders have the right to access that.

That is the company law side of it. The Financial Regulator can also insist on disclosure as I said when I spoke to the previous amendment.

I disagree. The Minister of State is correct that the Financial Regulator has the power to require this disclosure. The Financial Regulator has decided it is not necessary. I take a different view. We are the representatives of the people in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I believe it is in the public interest that sweetheart loans made to the family members of directors should be published in the annual accounts for everyone to see. It is a matter of public interest and ethics in banking. If we do not do this, we will allow the continuation of what happened before but through a director's child instead of directly by the director. It is also a matter of clean politics. We cannot have a situation whereby the only shareholder is the Minister for Finance and he is the only person other than the Director of Corporate Enforcement who can see who is getting these loans. There is a matter of public interest here.

If favourable terms are attached to a loan, disclosure will be made through the statement that is required to be prepared under section 44(3) and must be made available 15 days prior to the annual general meeting of the licensed bank in question. A register must be maintained and statements made.

Is there public or media access to that register? It is a secret register just for the shareholder.

I wish to bring some clarity to the statements made by the Financial Regulator. It is an area it is investigating. The Financial Regulator has additional powers in this respect.

So does the Oireachtas and I believe we should use them.

I must be having a Michael Collins day because I find myself supporting Deputy Varadkar again. Michael Collins would be on my side for sure.

We will not have the Civil War fought out here again.

The Chairman sees the Civil War settling, does he not?

He might decide to participate this time.

Frank Flannery is obviously working his magic again.

As public representatives we know that family members often find themselves in the public eye. If they were not members of a family in public life, they would not find themselves in that situation. A former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform had a son who was beaten up and that unfortunate child was in the media. There are times when I would be extremely conscious of trying to protect family members even of those in financial institutions. However, we have a difficulty with recent experience. For example, Seánie FitzPatrick walked off with his €83 million loan. Under the current terms he could have arranged that for a family member rather than take it himself, thereby allowing him to circumvent the regulator's current control and there would be no outing in that instance. Therefore, I see the need for the amendment to ensure that there is some transparency. Making laws for hard cases is never the best road as others in this room probably know better than I do. However, until we have some proper regulation it is reasonable and fair to accept the amendment.

We should not point out one particular institution. We legislate for all institutions and not for individual ones. The Minister for Finance is the sole shareholder in Anglo Irish Bank. If loans are given on favourable terms, a register is required as is a statement 15 days prior to the annual general meeting of the licensed bank in question. If these provisions operate as we envisage, this issue should be disclosed.

The Minister of State is relying on the term "favourable terms".

Only shareholders attend an AGM. This does not only apply to one company; it would apply to any company in which the Minister for Finance is sole shareholder, of which there are many. All the semi-State companies would be in this category. I do not believe many of them give loans to directors, but we do not know because it is a secret. It would also apply to any banks that might be nationalised in future. I suspect other banks will be nationalised in future.

The register and statement apply to licensed banks. Other companies would not fall under this requirement and there would be full disclosure of all the facts. The Deputy is suggesting that he cannot trust the Minister for Finance of the day in the context of the particular bank to which he refers. Shareholders are members of the public and they attend the AGMs. Disclosure is made through the statement made 15 days prior to the annual general meeting.

I trust the current Minister for Finance. I have immense respect for his probity.

Not just this, but any Minister for Finance.

I agree this is about any Minister for Finance. Even though technically the Minister for Finance is the sole shareholder in Anglo Irish Bank, in reality as a member of the public I am an owner. I am going to take the hit and have to pay for this bank. When a bank is nationalised, everybody becomes an owner and in reality is a shareholder. That is why we should have this information. It should not be a secret to the Minister for Finance.

The Minister for Finance has the information and he represents the public interest.

That information should be made available to the public as a matter of course.

Would the Deputy not agree that it would be less likely that loans on favourable terms would be made available now given that the bank has been nationalised and the sole shareholder is the Minister for Finance?

As a de facto shareholder in Anglo Irish Bank I would like to know. I do not see why it should be a State secret. I cannot understand how the public interest and faith in politics are served or how probity in banking is advanced by this being a secret. I do not see how the public benefits from this being a secret.

It would have further implications for ordinary business being conducted on a daily basis. It would have broader implications than for just one individual financial institution. When we legislate we legislate for all of them. We do not legislate for individual institutions.

The public has a right to know. It is now Government policy, with which I agree, that the public, whether shareholders, have the right to know when a preferential loan on sweetheart terms is made to a director. Why does that not equally apply to the director's husband, wife or first-degree relative? We are public officeholders and we are covered by the Ethics in Public Office Act. Small donations of €500 made to the Minister of State's cousin may need to be declared, but a sweetheart loan of €10 million to a director's wife does not. I cannot see the justice in that. I do not understand it. Surely the kinds of ethical standards that apply to us should also apply to members of the boards of banks. People always tell politicians to lead by example. Why should our standards not apply to bankers?

This legislation does not prevent a bank from entirely disclosing such loans on favourable terms made to relatives of directors or other interested parties. Anglo Irish Bank is nationalised and the Minister is the sole shareholder. It would be up to him to decide. Given that I do not want to discuss this issue too much for obvious reasons, I would prefer to talk in broader terms. We do not legislate for individual institutions. We are legislating for the banking system and for company law. While we can discuss it further, I cannot accept the amendment for all the reasons I outlined.

Banks can voluntarily disclose. Equally a register needs to be maintained and a statement needs to be made at an AGM. The Financial Regulator can access that register at any time. We have spoken previously about the review of financial regulatory powers. All that can be put in the melting pot at that time.

I have a final question. I agree that this applies to all banks, rather than solely to Anglo Irish Bank. By bringing this Bill before the Oireachtas, the Government has taken the view that it is in the public interest for people, regardless of whether they are shareholders in a bank, to be made aware of any preferential loans made to directors. How is it in the public interest not to do the same in the case of——

The Financial Regulator already has the power to publish——

By publishing this Bill, the Government has decided that it is not up to the Financial Regulator. Legislation has been brought before the Oireachtas so that we can decide if it is in the public interest for details of these loans to be published regardless of whether the Financial Regulator likes it. Why is the Minister of State saying that the Financial Regulator has the powers to decide on loans to connected persons? Why is he saying that it is up to the banks, or the Minister for Finance, to decide voluntarily? If the question of public interest applies here, why does it not apply there? I do not see the difference.

I suppose it comes back to the debate we have had previously. This is the Companies (Amendment) Bill 2009. It is amending the Companies Acts. The issues raised by the Deputy relate to other legislation and other regulators, such as the Financial Regulator. The power of disclosure of favourable terms is already vested in the Financial Regulator. The banks can also do that as they wish.

The Financial Regulator has that power because we provided it. I want to take it away from the regulator and give it to the public. It is a question of ethics and open government. I do not see why the Minister of State cannot agree to it.

It has broader implications, for example, in the context of ordinary business transactions, about which I spoke at the outset.

Preferential loans are not ordinary transactions — they are extraordinary.

Preferential loans have to be declared in the context of a statement in the register.

They have to be declared to the shareholders only. They do not have to be declared to the public.

They have to be declared to the regulator as well.

It would be the same thing if I were to make my declaration of interests to the House, but not to the public.

The regulator can access them all. Equally——

The Financial Regulator represents the public interest.

Yes. The regulator also has the power to make disclosures.

We know from recent experience that the regulator does not necessarily accept its responsibility to deal with the public interest. If the regulator had done so in the recent years, we would not be in the mess we are in now.

The regulator has changed.

We do not have a regulator. We have to wait for that too.

Things have changed. Times have changed now. The regulator will be under much more scrutiny than it was before now.

It is because times have changed that the public has a right to access this information. It should not matter whether the regulator, or Dermot Gleeson, thinks otherwise.

It should be up to the Minister for Finance.

I have been quite tolerant. This amendment has received a fair airing.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 7.

  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • English, Damien.
  • Morgan, Martin.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Varadkar, Leo.

Níl

  • Andrews, Chris.
  • Brady, Cyprian.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • White, Mary Alexandra.

Does the Minister of State have a vote? I have attended other select committee meetings where the Minister present did not have a vote.

If that is the case, the committees in question were in breach of Standing Orders.

Does that mean the results of divisions taken in the meetings in question were invalid?

One could argue the same point with regard to the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Calleary, who may not be an officeholder. I wonder whether his membership of the committee is affected by his appointment as Minister.

The matter needs to be clarified. While I am not an expert in this area, it is peculiar to have a substitute for a person whose membership of the committee is vacant. Clearly, it is a matter for the powers that be in the Fianna Fáil Party to nominate someone to replace the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, who was a fine member of the committee, as quickly as possible.

Is it correct that a Minister of State may not be a member of a committee?

I understand one cannot be an officeholder — the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, was Vice Chairman of this committee — and a member of the Government. How does allowing his participation in our proceedings differ from having the Minister of State, Deputy Billy Kelleher, participate in them given that he, too, is an ex officio member of the committee?

I am sure the Fianna Fáil Party will rectify the issue, which is not referred to in Standing Orders. Having identified this matter, someone will no doubt have to root through the relevant material for an answer. I will ask the clerk to the committee to contact the legal adviser to clarify the matter.

Amendment declared lost.
Section 8 agreed to.
Sections 9 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Title be the Title to the Bill."

On the use of the extended search powers, I ask the Minister of State to ensure that the Director of Corporate Enforcement, in his annual report, refers to his or her use of this provision. These powers are wide and draconian and infringe the rights of citizens. For this reason, I would like them to be used sparingly and ask that a report on their use be made available to the Oireachtas. Deputy Varadkar seeks to have this information made available to members of the public. Information on the frequency with which the relevant provision is applied should also be furnished to the Oireachtas. Perhaps the Minister of State is in a position to give some assurance in that regard.

When the Chairman raised this issue in his Second Stage speech we agreed to examine the issue. The Department contacted the Director of Corporate Enforcement asking that he consider providing information of this type to the Oireachtas. In reply, the director indicated that he will not have any difficulty in providing statistical information of this nature in his annual report. Where he decides to avoid identifying companies or persons against whom his search and seizure powers are used, he will do so in compliance with his legal duties under section 16(2) of the Company Law Enforcement Act 2001, which necessarily requires him, for example, to avoid prejudice to ongoing investigations and possible future enforcement action. Members will appreciate that it is not in the public interest that any such prejudice should occur. The broad terms will be included in the annual report of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

I accept the Minister of State's assurance.

I will clarify the position regarding Minister of State, Deputy Dara Calleary. As the Minister of State has not been formally discharged by the Dáil from this committee, he may be substituted. I thank the adviser, Mr. Padraic Donlon, for giving us the benefit of his advice. I must bow to his long-standing experience. The advice probably makes sense when spelled out in that format because the Minister of State has not actually been discharged by the Dáil. If I may be permitted to do something that has nothing to do with me, I will ask Deputy Cyprian Brady, the Vice Chairman, or Deputy Fitzpatrick, the Whip on the Fianna Fáil side, to progress matters.

I will certainly do that.

I thank the members for their assistance and co-operation in trying to move this Bill through its various Stages. I thank them for their courtesy, which they extended at all times.

To correct the record, Deputy Timmy Dooley did say "Níl" and did stand in for——

The record will be amended to that effect.

I just wanted to clarify that. The vote result will read: "Tá, 5; Níl, 7".

I thank Mr. Padraig Donlon for attending. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, and his officials. I thank Deputy Varadkar who went to the considerable bother of preparing amendments, which I know from experience is not an easy task. It is especially difficult for a complex Bill. We had a very useful discussion and, although there were only four amendments, there was good toing and froing. I refer to the fourth in particular, which did not so much bring us into conflict but informed us of procedures. I thank all the members for attending. This is probably one of the busiest Oireachtas committees. We will be sitting until 29 July and there is a lot of work to be done. The joint committee will be sitting next week to continue its work. I thank everybody.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
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