SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 9 Dec 1997

Vol. 1 No. 1

Estimates for Public Services, 1997:

Vote 25 - Environment and Local Government (Supplementary).

Chairman

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, together with his officials to this first meeting of the select committee.

This meeting will consider a Supplementary Estimate in the amount of £17.65 million. I remind Members that we are considering this Supplementary Estimate only; Members may not suggest increases or decreases and the debate should be confined to the specific subheads referred to in the brief on the Supplementary Estimate. A copy of this brief was circulated with the agenda. Additional copies together with copies of the Supplementary Estimate are available on request.

I suggest that before proceeding to consideration of the Supplementary Estimate we agree a timetable, namely, the Minister to address the committee for ten minutes, followed by a ten minute contribution from each of the Opposition spokespersons. I suggest this will be followed by an open discussion on the individual subheads. To ensure that we avoid any repetition of debate the Minister may reply to a group of related questions together. The Minister and the Opposition spokespersons will then have an opportunity to make a brief concluding statement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment. I am here to represent the Minister who is attending an international conference in Kyoto. The total amount involved in the Environment and Local Government Supplementary Estimate is £17.65 million, an increase of 1.8 per cent on the original 1997 Estimate of some £968 million. The bulk of the supplementary arises from increased expenditure on road maintenance and on improvements to the overall quality, reliability and efficiency of rural drinking water supplies. Additional provisions are required for the library programme and An Bord Pleanála. Also, a new subhead is being opened for expenditure this year on the Tribunal of Inquiry into planning matters. Finally, the supplementary identifies both a surplus on appropriations-in-aid as well as savings on two spending programmes; these offset, in part, the additional expenditure sought.

The committee will be aware of the commitment in the Action Programme for the Millennium to accelerate the upgrading of national primary and secondary routes. The additional £5 million this year, made available to the National Roads Authority for maintenance works on the national road network, is the first step in honouring this commitment. The additional funding is for use exclusively on national secondary roads as lack of funding over the years had given rise to deficiencies which needed to be addressed urgently. I understand from the NRA this extra funding has been allocated to 25 local authorities in respect of 20 national secondary routes, with particular emphasis on routes along the western seaboard. Provision of the additional £5 million demonstrates the determination of the Government to upgrade the national network, and to put in place a proper maintenance programme.

The Abridged Estimates for 1998 provide more than £291 million for the improvement and maintenance of national roads, an increase of nearly 11 per cent on projected expenditure of £263 million this year. This is further evidence of the Government's commitment to providing the resources necessary for a road infrastructure which will permit economic progress to be sustained and built upon.

The Action Programme for the Millennium pledges increased funding for regional and county roads. Against this background, an additional £5 million was made available shortly after the Government took office for maintenance works on class 3 county roads. This funding was provided for class 3 roads only, and it is restricted to the following works: surface dressing, surface restoration and road reconstruction. In providing this additional allocation, the Government is taking account of the needs of rural communities living along relatively isolated roads - roads which would normally be a low priority for road maintenance. It is also an acknowledgment of the disadvantages suffered by people in these areas, and it will generate confidence in the Government's commitment to upgrade all regional and local roads requiring attention.

Use of the additional £5 million is being monitored closely by my Department. I expect that more than 600 schemes will be carried out, resulting in the maintenance or improvement of nearly 500 kilometres of this road type. More recently, the 1998 Abridged Estimates provided a sum of some £199 million for non-national roads, an increase of more than £26 million, or 15 per cent, on the original 1997 allocation. This is further evidence of our determination to restore the network of county roads. On top of this, the Minister for Finance announced, in the context of the budget, the provision of a further £5 million for the special restoration programme for county roads. This brings total non-national roads grants for 1998 to a record level of almost £204 million, an increase of £31 million, or 18 per cent, on the original 1997 allocation.

Ten million pounds is required to meet the additional cost of measures introduced earlier this year to improve the overall quality of rural drinking water supplies, and to achieve equity in the provision of water supplies to all households - urban and rural.

The committee will recall that domestic water charges were abolished earlier this year, as part of the strategy of reform of local government introduced by the previous Government. While abolition of the charges benefited urban households and a significant number of rural households, large numbers of rural households derived no direct benefit from these arrangements and continued to be fully responsible for the capital and operating costs of private group and individual water supply systems, many of which were unreliable and subject to pollution. Clearly, the position of householders dependent on poor quality group scheme or private individual supplies needed further consideration. A number of new measures were introduced and are now operational in all local authority areas. These include the takeover by county councils of existing group water schemes, a subsidy towards the operational cost of group water schemes, and a new grant scheme for the provision of new or improved individual water supplies to households.

I am confident these measures will not only achieve equity in the approach to the provision of water supplies to all houses but will also secure a long-term improvement in the quality, reliability and efficiency of rural water supplies.

I am also seeking an increase of £400,000 for capital grants for the public library programme; this will permit construction of a branch library in Dungarvan. When constructed, this library will be a valuable part of the infrastructure of Waterford. While the construction of a library is an investment in bricks and mortar, it is also an investment in information and in people. The Dungarvan project is such an investment. It involves the construction of a library of 760 m2 which will serve a population of 15,000 and replace a library of 159 m2, located in the old Market House in the town. It will be open to everyone. The overall cost of the project is estimated at just over £1 million, and it will attract a grant of more than £800,000 from my Department's capital programme. The balance of the grant has been provided for in my Department's 1998 Estimate.

The additional provision of £360,000 is needed primarily to finance the pay and related costs arising from the recruitment of additional staff to meet the large increase in the number of planning appeals received by An Bord Pleanála. The increased activity has generated additional income for the board through planning appeal fees. However, this has not been sufficient to offset the increase in costs. There has been a steady escalation in the number of appeals coming before the board since mid-1995, and this reflects the growth in the economy generally. This year, it is expected that 4,000 appeals will be received; this compares to 3,424 in 1996 and 2,778 in 1995, a 44 per cent increase over a two year period. The Department and the board have been concerned about this trend, particularly in the context of the statutory four month objective which applies to appeals determined by the board. A number of measures have been taken to deal with the situation. The most significant of these is the extra temporary staffing that has been approved, and to which this aspect of the supplementary estimate relates. The approved staffing level, excluding the board, is now 85 compared to 71 at the end of 1996.

There is a consensus that the planning appeals system must work efficiently and effectively. The decline in the rate of determining appeals within the statutory four month period from 98 per cent in 1995 to 82 per cent at the end of October is indicative of the scale of the problem to be addressed, and I believe the increased staffing sanctioned during the year will assist significantly this process. It will be appreciated there will be a time lag before increased staffing is fully reflected in output.

I am seeking £250,000 for the tribunal of inquiry into planning matters as established by an Order of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, to inquire into and report on various planning matters set out in Resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann on 7 and 8 October 1997. These funds will be used for initial set up costs of the tribunal, including the purchase of computers and general office equipment in addition to staffing costs for the current year. My Department has put in place practical arrangements for holding the tribunal. Accommodation for the tribunal has been secured in Dublin Castle - the Chester Beatty Building - and the necessary office equipment and facilities have been provided.

I hope I have outlined the need for the additional expenditure sought, and I commend this Supplementary Estimate to the committee. I will be pleased to clarify issues Members may raise in the question and answer session which will follow.

I wish this recently established committee well and, along with my colleagues, the Minister Deputy Noel Dempsey and the Minister of State Deputy Dan Wallace, look forward to working with the committee in the future. I congratulate Deputy Healy-Rae on his appointment as chairman of the committee. I know he will serve with dedication and distinction. It only remains for me to wish members the compliments of the season.

Chairman

As Deputy Dukes is not available, I now call Deputy Howlin.

Mr. Howlin

I echo the good wishes of the Minister of State to the chairman in his role and I know this will be an important committee. I welcome the Supplementary Estimate and the additional budget available to the Department of the Environment and Local Government. I am gratified the expenditure will be made available to the targeted areas outlined by the Minister of State.

I welcome the additional £5 million allocated to the national roads network. Is this amount a net sum or is it to increase additional European funding. In other words, is £5 million the total amount allocated or is it to match funding from the European Cohesion Funds or other funds? An issue that causes great concern across all parties in the House is road safety, particularly following the untimely death of a former colleague in the Seanad. Is any of this money being allocated to specific road safety initiatives? The Taoiseach made a specific commitment in the Dáil to look at the area of road safety, to call in the agencies involved including the National Safety Council, the local authorities and the Garda Síochána to work in unison on an action plan to reduce the carnage on the roads. Unfortunately, seven people were killed on our roads this week-end, one from my own county. Tragedies such as this are unfolding weekly and daily and there must be a concerted response to deal with the problem. I would welcome a comment from the Minister of State on expenditure for our national roads. Perhaps the Minister will also give details of the specific projects he mentioned and the counties that will benefit from the £5 million expenditure.

Regarding non-national roads, I welcome the additional £5 million. I note the money is for class 3 county roads and I would like further details as to how that money will be allocated. Will it be allocated in accordance with other funds under the road reconstruction system on a county by county basis in ratio to the kilometers of the type of road to be aided, or will it be ring fenced for certain counties and will some counties be excluded? There was a time when many local authorities took in charge roads that were nothing more than access routes to individual farms. Some of these are now categorised as class 3 roads. Will there be local contribution in partnership with the local authorities whereby local adjoining landowners would, either in kind or in cash, support the road restoration effort so that the money could be stretched to bring all the non-national roads up to an acceptable standard? Are the evaluations undertaken in the Department of the condition of roads complete and is there an accurate picture of the overall condition of the non-national roads network and an accurate costing of the restoration programme so that we will be aware of the full scale of the problem to be addressed and the cost of its resolution? Has the evaluation of engineering mechanisms been concluded and is there an engineering blueprint that can be given to county councils to resolve current problems?

I welcome the allocation of money in the area of drinking water. I note with satisfaction the Minister of State's list of significant improvements to water quality, all of which were initiated by his predecessor. Given that he, his party and his colleagues in Government were so critical of those initiatives when they were introduced, will the Minister of State outline the specific additional measures being taken so that we can determine the changes in the scheme proposed by the Minister of State and the Government? Will the Minister of State clarify his party leader's view on reintroducing water charges? What is the average waiting time for decisions on applications submitted to An Bord Pleanála?

On the moneys sought for the tribunal on planning, will the Minister indicate when it is expected this tribunal will begin its work, particularly in the light of the apparent contradiction between the statement of the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, and the sole member of the tribunal of inquiry, Mr. Justice Flood? The Minister for Finance is of the view that legal fees are holding up the commencement of the inquiry whereas Mr. Justice Flood apparently has indicated there are other factors involved. Perhaps the Minister of State can clarify this?

I heartily welcome the vote for Dungarvan library. There are a number of other major library projects, two of which need to serve huge population bases in the greater Dublin area. The building of Tallaght library was funded on the basis a £1 million grant which was added to the library vote over a number of years because it was a particularly costly initiative. Will the Minister of State indicate whether he would consider a similar proposal for the other two major Dublin library projects to which I refer?

I take this opportunity to wish the Minister of State well, since this is the first time he has appeared before this committee. I wish the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, well also. He is doing an important job for Ireland at the Kyoto conference.

Mr. McCormack

I will share my time with Deputy Hayes.

I welcome the supplementary estimate. The provision of an additional £5 million for national primary roads and £5 million for national secondary roads is welcome but they are small sums of money. I do not know how many miles of national primary or secondary roads can be provided with £1 million. How many extra miles of national primary and secondary road will be built on foot of this supplementary estimate?

Members of local authorities sometimes have great difficulty with expenditure on national primary and secondary routes because this expenditure is controlled by the National Roads Authority rather than by the local authority. The decisions are not made at local level and are made contrary to local democracy. The NRA allocates the money specifically for national primary or secondary routes. In most cases one cannot beat the advice and knowledge of local authority members. They know where the money needs to be spent but when the NRA states it will allocate £10 million or £15 million for a stretch of road, there is no regard for local democracy because it is not obliged to take the advice of local authorities.

On the overall roads programme, must local authorities submit a five or ten year plan for non-national roads which are their responsibility? Local authorities should be made aware of the amount of money they will receive over the period so that they can plan their roads programme in advance and not in a piecemeal fashion. That would ensure better value for money.

There is £5 million in the supplementary estimate for non-national roads. It is indicated in the supplementary estimate that the money is for class 3 local roads in particular. Will local authorities be allowed a free hand in spending that money?

I have difficulty with the estimate for water supply, sewerage schemes, etc., which is being increased by £10 million, because many water and sewerage schemes are now financed by Cohesion funding. The Minister will be aware from experience, that every time one asks about sewerage or water schemes in Connemara one is told they are part of the Connemara environmental project which has been with the Department since 1995 and has been relayed to Brussels for EU funding, that it is a £72 million scheme and we have no say in the matter. Whether one asks a question in the Dáil or at local authority level, that is the answer one gets. Nothing has been done about this since it has been with Brussels with the exception of the sanction, which was provided by the former Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, to take the Spiddal-Rosaveal water scheme out of the Connemara environmental scheme. I am grateful to the former Minister because it was necessary to proceed with that scheme just as it is now necessary to get on with the Moycullen scheme, the Clonbur sewerage scheme and other schemes. These schemes should be addressed separately from the larger schemes which have been submitted to Brussels because sometimes the Department uses the fact that it is waiting for a reply from Brussels as an excuse. Why are we getting no reply? Will the Minister consider sanctioning those schemes?

It would be remiss of me if I let the opportunity pass without mentioning the scandal of the Galway sewage treatment plant sanctioned by the local authority, of which I have been a member for four or five years, and held up because of frivolous objections, court cases, etc. I cannot see why local democracy does not apply in this case. If a council decides by 12 votes to three to proceed with the sewage treatment plant on Mutton Island, as it did five years ago, why can it not proceed?

Deputy Hayes will deal with the libraries and other matters.

Mr. Hayes

I welcome the Minister of State Deputy Molloy and his officials to the committee, I offer him my support and extend to him best wishes for the season. I am sure those wishes are echoed by everyone in Carlow.

I will deal with the issue of libraries, an Bord Pleanála and the planning tribunal. Recently the Minister Deputy Dempsey paid a visit to South Dublin County Council, of which I am a member, and saw at first hand the great work being done by the Tallaght library which is connected directly to the offices of the local authority. It is a good example of how best to utilise public services in one building.

How many outstanding applications in the building programme are now before the Department from other local authorities? As with the schools building programme, a lists of local authorities which have applied to the Department for funding to proceed with their building programmes should be published quarterly. If we know the scale of the problem, we can deal with it. While I welcome the additional expenditure of £400,000 for Dungarvan, a number of local authorities feel they are not getting a fair share of the national cake.

On the issue of libraries, recently the Minister for Education and Science produced an excellent IT programme. Will the Minister for the Environment and Local Government ensure that, in the moneys his Department provides to local authorities, moneys are provided for information technology in libraries? At a time when the Government has announced massive expenditure for the provision of additional IT in schools, it is ironic that we do not see an equivalent increase in expenditure for the public library system. Surely unemployed and people who see the library service as their channel of information have an equivalent right to access to information technology and the internet. This is an important issue. If the Government is serious about information technology, it must follow through in that commitment not only in education at primary, second and third levels but throughout the library service because the library is the first stop shop for many people who want information.

I welcome the additional funding of £360,000 for an Bord Pleanála but is it enough? The Minister knows there has been a massive increase in the number of appeals coming before an Bord Pleanála about decisions taken primarily at local authority level, and one wonders whether it has the resources at its disposal in terms of staffing and offices. We may have to revisit this issue during the year if this £360,000 is not enough. There is a need for greater efficiency in decision making at an Bord Pleanála and decisions need to be streamlined. Deputy Howlin asked about the average time it took to make a decision. I too am interested in an answer to that question.

We must be clear about the planning tribunal. There is a view that the reason this tribunal is taking so long to get on with its work is the penny-pinching attitude of certain Ministers. A very important matter must be expedited at Dublin Castle within a short timeframe. The public and the Houses of the Oireachtas demand the truth. If progress on the establishment of the tribunal is slow because of the deliberations of the Minister for Finance or of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government we need to know about it. Why has so much time passed without progress on the tribunal? One wonders whether the £0.25 million the Minister is providing in the supplementary estimate will get to the heart of the problem of finances which need to be made available.

I look forward to debating these matters with the Minister.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I welcome the Minister and the officials of the Department. As this is my first opportunity to participate in select committee business, this is a learning process for me. There are a number of critical areas I wish to address within the range of areas outlined in the Minister's proposals.

As a member of a local authority since 1985 I welcome and support the allocation of additional moneys to reach out and fulfil the needs of people. That is very important. My questions will relate only to whether the provisions go far enough, whether they will address the range of areas of concern which I, as a Border constituency Deputy, wish to see included.

The additional allocation of £5 million in subhead C1 for national roads refers to 25 local authorities covering 20 national secondary routes exclusively. I note too that the commentary places a particular emphasis on routes along the western seaboard. As a Border counties Deputy, my only hope is that the tourism designation of counties Cavan and Monaghan might see us included in some of those schemes. I join the former Minister in requesting details with regard to Connacht-Ulster. I hope the specifics will throw some light on my concerns.

Without the detail of the proposed substantive expenditure under this heading in the coming year, I want to reflect on a national route which is not designated under this additionality, that is the N2. There is a significant concentration of effort and interest on what is commonly termed as the eastern seaboard route from Rosslare, through Dublin, to Belfast. With a western seaboard focus in this additional moneys, what of the central corridor, the N2 Dublin-Derry, and particularly the inner relief roads which have been signposted for three major population centres along its route at Carrickmacross, Castleblayney and Monaghan Town? What is the Department's intent in relation to funding for the inner relief road for Monaghan and the proposed by-passes of Castleblayney and Carrickmacross? If this information is not available immediately this afternoon, I would certainly appreciate a response which will throw light on the Minister's intention.

On the provision of £5 million under subhead C2, I hold out a little more hope. We are talking about 600 schemes covering 500 kilometres of non-national roads. In this instance, I will focus specifically and very purposely on the disastrous state of the non-national road infrastructure in County Cavan, which is not only a national disgrace but one which has been brought to international attention time and time again. It is no longer satisfactory as a butt of fun within the political life of this State. The people of County Cavan have every right to expect that this Government will deliver. The same could be said with regard to previous Administrations and people were sad not to find their expectations met.

Mr. Howlin

£0.25 billion.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

At present vast areas of this county are literally being abandoned to the ravages of nature. The roads are not being attended to and have not been maintained never mind improved for almost a quarter of a century. I have visited many of these areas. This is not only of local concern. It reflects on the lack of attention to non-national roads, particularly those in peripheral areas of this jurisdiction, that is the Border counties. No other example is comparable to the situation in County Cavan. I would like an outline of the number of schemes and the number of kilometres in the Minister's proposals which apply to that county.

I note the additional moneys for subhead D1 are geared towards the improvement of drinking water supply in rural areas. Additional money is not signposted for sewerage schemes in the proposals before us. I have a particular interest in the only small village community without a sewerage scheme, which is Tydavnet, north County Monaghan. The village has great historic and tourism interest and with the re-opening of cross-Border roads it has become a focus of interaction with the neighbouring communities in its immediate hinterland and beyond. The absence of a sewerage scheme in that community has stunted its potential, not only to meet its current needs but for future development. That community needs urgent attention.

I welcome subhead F6, which provides additional moneys for An Bord Pleanála. The Minister has indicated there will also be an increase in staff numbers. Any measure which will improve the timescale for addressing appeals is patently in the interest both of individuals and developmental works in all their manifestation. The four months currently required for the conclusion of applications should be shortened - there is no need for this period but it arises because of the serious backlog and under-resourcing of An Bord Pleanála. Additional staff are clearly needed to meet the growing demands upon the board.

I would be grateful for any specific responses the Minister can give and if some queries are not immediately answerable I would appreciate it if he could come back to me at the earliest opportunity. I thank him and his officials for coming here.

Mr. Killeen

I welcome the additional allocations for national secondary roads. In a number of counties, local authorities use their own resources and other means to provide reasonably well for regional roads, while the NRA appears to have concentrated most of its efforts and finances on national primary routes. As a result the national secondary routes in many counties have lost out, so the allocation is needed. In my constituency the N69 has suffered consistently severe turlough flooding for a number of months each year but nothing has been done to alleviate that. Once upon a time Deputies could ask Parliamentary Questions or use other avenues to get information on such matters but an advantage for the NRA - and a disadvantage for democracy - is that the Ceann Comhairle rules that such Questions are no longer a matter for the Minister. The Estimates are now the only opportunity to raise these matters. In general, national primary routes have received much more attention than national secondary roads; this became noticeable when councils made resources available to upgrade regional roads, which became superior to national secondary roads after two to three years.

The non-national roads, or class 3 county roads, have been designated "yellow" roads in the colour categorisation. One of the greatest curses that could befall a person was having the road passing one's house designated a class 3 road. In many counties, roads in that category are effectively excluded from county council's five year plans for improvement works. The community roads programme, mentioned by Deputy Howlin, has been the only hope offered to them. I welcome this extra allocation. Normally I would be loath to suggest that the Minister should give extra direction to councils but if he does, he should consider local contributions. There are cases where these are excessive - in some cases a local contribution to a road containing only one or two households can be as high as £5,000. That would clearly be beyond the means of these households and in those cases extra Departmental allocations could be used to substantially reduce the input required from residents on the road.

I disagree with Deputy Howlin about water and sewerage schemes; it is a bad idea to drop collectable charges. I disagreed when my party was responsible for doing it 20 years ago and when he did it more recently.

Mr. Howlin

Is Deputy Killeen advocating that they be restored?

Mr. Killeen

There are political realities and I am as aware of them as the Deputy - once charges are dropped they cannot be restored. In this instance, an extra £10 million is being allocated, not to improve services on a national scale but to provide finance arising from the Government decision on charges. Little progress has been made on the takeover of group water schemes and in a number of cases councils want to take over schemes but are not in a position to do so. We should revisit this issue at some point because it is of critical importance to infrastructure and water quality which, as Deputy Howlin rightly said, continues to give cause for concern. There is also considerable delay in payment of the annual subsidy, and a good deal of confusion about the level of subsidy which ought to be payable to schemes which supply water to farmers. This needs to be cleared up also.

A relatively small number of appeals to An Bord Pleanála are vexatious and frivolous and a substantial number need more attention than they get. Could a system be devised to dispose quickly of frivolous and vexatious appeals to allow the board's resources to be directed to those which raise serious planning issues? Given the board's workload, something like this needs to be done.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

There have been a number of questions and we will go through the subheads as well, so if I do not cover a point Deputies may ask me about them again.

Deputy Howlin asked if the £5 million was a net sum or if it would be matched with EU funding. It is a net sum and the EU does not provide funds for maintenance works. That matter therefore required additional funding which is why the Government concentrated the extra money there, in line with its commitment in the Programme for Government.

The Deputy also asked about road safety and inquired whether moneys would be devoted to that end. He referred to the initiative announced at the meeting between the Taoiseach and the high-level group on road safety, which was attended by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, and me. We committed ourselves to prepare a national strategy for road safety. That will take some time because it is a critically important initiative. I join the Deputy in expressing sorrow and horror at the continuing level of road deaths. In recent days people from our areas have lost lives and it is necessary to continue to urge people who use roads to do so as safely as possible. A combination of conditions can sometimes lead to dreadful accidents with terrible consequences, as has happened again recently. I extend my sympathy, and I am sure that of the committee, to the relatives and friends of those who have lost their lives in this terrible ongoing tragedy of road deaths.

Extra money was provided some weeks ago to the National Safety Council in addition to funds it received under the 1997 Estimates for the promotion of road safety. On the basis of the concentrated initiative being taken by the Government, the Deputy can expect that a higher profile will be given to road safety not only in terms of promotion by the National Safety Council but also in other areas where measures can be introduced or changes made. The Government is conscious of the need to prioritise road safety and this will be done. I hope the results of this will be seen in the years ahead.

The Deputy wanted to know how the money for Class 3 roads will be allocated. He also wanted specific projects to benefit under the national road grant allocation. I have a long list.

Mr. Howlin

Could it be circulated?

Mr. Molloy

Yes. Regarding county roads, money was allocated on that occasion on the basis of road length.

Mr. Howlin

To every county?

Mr. Molloy

Yes. I wish to express a preference in relation to future allocations. Consideration should be given to ensuring that money is directed to areas of greatest need. Using road length is not necessarily the best barometer in terms of deciding how to allocate critical funds. For example, the subsurface conditions of roads in some counties are good and do not deteriorate as rapidly as others. Some roads deteriorate much more quickly due to weather conditions. Therefore, if money is allocated on the basis of the length of the road, the bad ones will always remain bad and the good ones will get better.

Mr. Howlin

One of the problems is that some counties do not use their own money and others have maintained a high standard of roads by spending their money on them. The virtuous should be rewarded.

Mr. Molloy

I complimented the former Minister, Deputy Howlin, on taking an initiative with regard to carrying out a survey of the county roads system. However, having looked at the results, I was not impressed regarding the identification of areas of real need. The survey was a record of the situation county by county rather than within each engineering area, which would have been more specific and important. There can be big differences within large counties in terms of where problems might arise. When figures are provided for each county, the real needs are not identified. However, the figures requested by the Deputy will be circulated.

Regarding the point about requiring a local contribution, there is a provision where such contributions can be made. However, it was not made mandatory on this occasion. Local groups can participate in local schemes with the local authority. They pay a certain amount and benefit from the grants available.

Some Deputies may have missed a point I made earlier that the restoration programme lasts for ten years. It is the Government's intention to seek to bring the condition of the roads up to a reasonable standard during the lifetime of that programme. The extra money provided for 1997 and the large funds made available for 1998 indicate the Government's commitment to achieving that objective.

There are no current proposals to introduce water charges for domestic dwellings. Perhaps we should get this matter out of the way now and not waste time on it. Regarding the other points made about water, the operational devolved programme for rural water schemes by local authorities is currently under examination in the Department. The programme is in place for less than a year and it is recognised that the pace of implementation has been uneven across the country. Matters appear to be improving but it needs to be carefully considered. It is the Government's objective to ensure an efficient and effective delivery of services to the private group schemes sector and individual houses supplying their own water. The Minister met the National Federation of Group Water Schemes and the farming organisations recently to discuss the ongoing operation of the programme. They made a number of specific proposals to the Minister on the conditions governing the schemes and how they are administered. These are still under consideration and the Minister will deal with the matter when he returns.

Deputy Howlin raised the planning tribunal. Regarding the issues, true or false, which have appeared in newspaper reports, the Attorney General and the judge appointed by the Oireachtas to take charge of the tribunal are in discussion about certain aspects of its establishment. I hope those matters will be resolved in the near future. There was an initial delay regarding the selection of a judge. Since his appointment other matters have arisen, some of which have not yet been resolved. Members are aware of criticism in the past in relation to the fees paid to counsel, particularly at the beef tribunal. All Governments must be careful about what levels they approve in this area.

However, genuine factors which are a major part of decisions on these matters must also be taken into account. I am aware of the ongoing discussions between the Attorney General and the judge. I expect that the matters will be resolved amicably and satisfactorily in the near future to enable the work of the tribunal to proceed. It is not the wish of Members of the House who voted to establish the tribunal that there should be any undue delay regarding it setting about its important work.

A point was raised about libraries. There is a substantial list of proposals from local authorities of which the former Minister may be aware. I was not aware of it until recently but it is lengthy. Does the committee wish to have the list of applications circulated? The proposals are in alphabetical order. Commitments were made and work has commenced on some proposals. Some projects are not yet complete and others are awaiting approval to enable work to proceed.

The matter which is the subject of the Supplementary Estimate was a commitment made during the recent election by a certain Government representative. We are happy to help him fulfil that commitment by providing £400,000. I am not sure who gained from it, but I do not think the gentleman is present. Such matters are recognised in the changeover of Governments.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Minister of State circulate the list?

Mr. Molloy

Yes. Deputy McCormack asked what mileage of road would be improved from the extra money provided for national roads. I understand the figure is 53 kilometres of national secondary routes. Deputy McCormack also raised a local issue. Coming from the same constituency I suppose we have a clear interest in seeing that these matters are advanced. I agree with the point he makes that when we inquired - through Parliamentary Questions and other queries to the Department - about many of the water schemes in the Connemara area we were told that they were part of the Connemara environmental scheme that was submitted to Europe and that when the EU approved it the work would proceed. From the knowledge I have gained since coming into the Department, it seems over-optimistic to expect that we can get approval for the Connemara environmental scheme on its own. The Department's view, which is the same as the Deputy's, is that if we will not get overall approval for the whole scheme because of the enormous cost involved, we need to proceed with individual parts of it. That would be the best way of achieving it. In that way, over a period of years, we might achieve the objective of having a good quality water supply scheme for the whole region.

I am surprised any Opposition Deputies would ask me what the current position is about the Mutton Island treatment works. Deputy McCormack is in my constituency. This matter has been held up because of the court appeal and until the Supreme Court decides on the appeal it would not be proper or appropriate for the Department to proceed. The local authority may wish to take an initiative but it is not possible for the Department to take any initiative on the matter.

Mr. McCormack

I am well aware of that. I am only asking what we should do about it.

Mr. Molloy

The matter has been listed for hearing in the Supreme Court in February. That would eliminate the doubt which was raised. There was some legal opinion that, depending on the priority given to this by the Supreme Court, it might be held up for a year or two. I am pleased to note, however, that the Supreme Court considers it a matter of great urgency and has listed it for hearing in February.

I have answered Deputy Hayes's question about the libraries. He raised a point concerning funding for information technology facilities for library services. There is provision for a 50 per cent grant for the capital cost of providing information technology. As the Deputy will see from the long list, there is quite a number of applications and it is a question of prioritising them. Where there are several applications from different counties, the counties will prioritise the applications and the Department will respect that, as far as possible. I do not know what happened in the case of Dungarvan but that has been the practice in nearly all cases. We would like to adhere to that and let the local people decide which one they want to proceed first, so that there will be some order to it.

Many questions were raised about roads in Deputy Ó Caoláin's area, in the Border area generally and in the north east. The Deputy mentioned a number of schemes on the N2, Dublin to Derry road. As all Deputies have heard since the National Roads Authority was set up, it is a function of that authority to prioritise which roads it shall fund. I cannot comment on the individual cases the Deputy listed, nor can I indicate when they are likely to proceed. However, the National Roads Authority is responsive to representations from Deputies with regard to providing whatever information it can. I am sure the Deputy will discover that, if he approaches the authority on the matter. I will ask the authority to give the Deputy as much information as it can about the matter he raised.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I appreciate that.

Mr. Molloy

I will take up any matter on national primary or secondary roads raised by any Deputy with the authority to see that a response is issued to outline the position.

The chief executive of the National Roads Authority will appear before this Committee, so Members will have an opportunity to discuss with him the authority's modus operandi for deciding upon priorities, as well as any local issues.

I understand a number of deputations have been received on the proposal concerning Tydavnet and I will consider them as part of the 1998 work programme which will be announced early in the new year. There is no commitment on that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I accept the Minister will circulate a document giving a breakdown of non-national roads in County Cavan. The C2 subhead allocation involves 600 schemes covering 500 kilometres. The area is known as Tydavnet, which means the house of Davnet.

Mr. Molloy

It is a beautiful name. Deputy Killeen said applications for national secondary roads' funding have not been receiving the same priority from the National Roads Authority as national primary roads. It is a question of prioritising and deciding where the greatest need is. One of the authority's primary responsibilities is to provide for the construction of a national roads network linking the main centres of population. Obviously, the primary routes have been designated by previous Governments. There is still a great deal of work to be done to bring our national primary routes up to international standards, while at the same time recognising the need to ensure that national secondary routes are also kept to a high standard. I accept the point the Deputy is making. I can see the difficulties the National Roads Authority is confronted with in making those decisions. The fact that is has been mentioned here will be brought to the authority's notice and may require it to have another look at the funding allocations being made for national secondary roads.

On the question of vexatious appeals, mentioned by Deputy Killeen, section 14 of the 1992 Act allows An Bord Pleanála to dismiss appeals if they are considered vexatious or without substance. In 1996, 14 appeals from a total of 3,326 were dismissed by the board using this power. It is, therefore, basically a matter for the board to decide whether an appeal is vexatious. I know there will be many appeals which the applicants would consider to be vexatious but that the board saw substance in and proceeded with.

It is interesting to note that the board only deemed 14 to be vexatious. It is a difficult one for the board to call. However, if people raise certain queries about large developments the whole development must be examined and that can take up quite an amount of time. To try to help in improving the performance of An Bord Pleanála money is being provided for staff increases. I have given the numbers involved.

The Government proposes to increase the membership of the board of An Bord Pleanála as a necessary measure to seek to expedite the decision making process within An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Howlin

By legislation?

Mr. Molloy

By legislation. The Bill, which has been approved by the Cabinet, will be circulated fairly soon. The average time taken to deal with an appeal is now running at 16 weeks. Compliance with the four months statutory period has fallen to 82 per cent from a high of 98 per cent. It is only reasonable to expect that if the number of applications received increases at a tremendous rate and the number of people dealing with them does not, there will be delays. Many applications are very complex and take a great deal of time. We had one in my area where appeals on a development of several million pounds held the project up for a year. This added tremendously to the cost of the project but the appeal was legitimate. It is essential to have more staff to process appeals as well as a greater number of people to adjudicate on appeals and to sign the orders. That is the task of the board members who work pretty hard and I intend to add another two members to it. The Bill will be circulated very soon and Deputies will see the process proposed.

The Bord, in its most recent annual report, set an objective to determine 95 per cent of all cases within four months and to set the average time taken to determine appeals at 13 weeks. The Government is committed to working with the board on these objectives and to bringing forward the legislation.

Mr. Dukes

There are three matters on which I would like to come back to the Minister. The first is the allocation for non-national roads. On 25 November we had questions to the Minister Deputy Dempsey. He was unable to tell me then the target for the length of non-national roads which would be dealt with in 1998 under the provision that has been made. This surprised me, five weeks in advance of the beginning of the year. Will the Minister Deputy Molloy tell me, three weeks from the beginning of the year, what target is in mind for next year. I note that in the first two years of the scheme introduced by Deputy Howlin when he was Minister, 17 per cent of the over all target had been reached. It was a very welcome programme and 17 per cent in the first two years of a ten year programme is rather respectable. We need to see a substantial acceleration of that pace if we are to achieve the targets within ten years. Will the Minister Deputy Molloy indicate what the broad targets are for 1998, bearing in mind that the local authorities will designate the actual stretches of road and that we will all participate in the competition within local authority areas?

My second question has to do with An Bord Pleanála. I am interested that the Minister has told us he will shortly introduce a Bill to increase the membership of the board. I would like to know if the Government has anything else in mind in the context of the over all review of planning legislation which is taking place. It is now 22 years since An Bord Pleanála was set up and we all appreciate the reasons for setting it up. It is, however, no insult to say that the very diligent people who constitute An Bord Pleanála are no more endowed with wisdom than the rest of us. No one will take it amiss when I say that An Bord Pleanála can make decisions that are every bit as spectacularly stupid as local authorities'. A number of decisions made by An Bord Pleanála have been unfathomable. I give only one instance which is the approval for a dump in Kill, County Kildare. There are others. Has the time come for the Government to think again about the structure of An Bord Pleanála. I recognise that when it was set up it was a major innovation which responded to very legitimate fears at the time but I wonder if it is still appropriate if we are to have a root and branch review of the planning process. All the members of An Bord Pleanála are appointed directly by the Minister. I do not criticise any of them. There may now be a need to take a different view of how we should constitute such a board. It is sometimes difficult to explain to the public why there is no way of looking behind decisions of An Bord Pleanála. The case was different in 1975. The structure was a major innovation at the time. In a better informed society and one which has a greater taste for participation in decisions it may be time to take a different view given that it is, as currently constituted, a court of final appeal except in the rare cases where a point of law arises. Does the Minister have any thoughts on that?

My third question relates to the Flood Tribunal and the delays in setting it up. I do not know if news management is going on. We were told, initially, that delays were due to difficulties between the Minister for Finance and barristers about the level of fees. More recently it was indicated there was difficulty in getting staff. Could the Minister be a little more forthcoming on these difficulties? If the difficulties relate to staff I have some questions for the Minister. It seems to me that if an inquiry is to be carried out in conformity with the terms of reference - although that seems to be rather an heroic assumption - the tribunal will need the support of staff familiar with the day-to-day process of decision making on various planning applications and so on. The tribunal could not employ staff from any of the Dublin local authorities nor could it employ staff who, at the material time, had been employed by any of the Dublin local authorities. It will have to look elsewhere. I can see no obvious reason why local authorities, who did not invent this thing, should cause themselves difficulty by giving up staff to a tribunal which has nothing to do with any of the local authorities outside of Dublin. Does the Minister have any wisdom to offer us on where the tribunal will get staff who have the familiarity with the planning process that is needed to carry out the work?

Mr. McCormack

My question concerns the deficiencies in the allocation of money to national secondary roads. The Minister said, in answer to my earlier question, that 23 extra kilometres will be addressed. Given that there are 25 local authorities this allows for an average of approximately two kilometres for each local authority. My question concerns the Galway Oughterard road which is a national secondary road and is in urgent need of attention. I ask this question here because I understand a representative of the National Roads Authority is present today. I am also concerned about the Galway Headford road where a tragic accident occurred last weekend. That accident did not occur on the bad stretch of the Galway Headford road. I know the three families involved and I would like to express my sympathy to them. Two of those lost in that tragic accident on the Galway-Headford road were teenagers and another was only out of his teens, a young man of 22. It is necessary to spend money on this road.

I welcome the Minister's announcement of the new found responsibility of the National Roads Authority for responding to public representatives. I was seriously critical of the authority in the past because of the almost contemptuous manner in which it treated public representatives. Less than two years ago it did not reply to any correspondence from public representatives. That has greatly improved and I acknowledge that. However, I raised the issue in the first place because it seems to be a body which is not answerable to public representatives. I take any opportunity to bring matters to its attention and that is why I raise these matters now.

Mr. Howlin

What is the take up rate and the total payments to date under the new grants scheme for the provision of new or improved individual water supplies to households? In my part of the world, it is very difficult to get that process to payment stage. What is the total income under the local government equalisation fund for this year to date and what is the total distribution to date to local authorities in accordance with the Act? As regards subhead D.1, expenditure on waste management grants, will the Minister of State confirm there is a difficulty surrounding a grant to South Dublin County Council relating to a baling station which is well under way? Is it an indication that this payment from the Cohesion Fund may be in jeopardy, and what are the intentions of the Department as regards providing this much needed facility?

Mr. Molloy

As regards Deputy Howlin's question about applications for grants for individual water supplies to houses, 4,000 applications were received, 1,400 were deemed eligible and 2,400 are being processed. My officials and I do not have the information on the equalisation fund with us but we will supply it to the Deputy. As regards South Dublin County Council, I will try to have the information sent on to the Deputy. We do not have such information on specific projects with us.

The Government intends providing the required funding for non-national roads over the remaining eight years of the programme. Following last week's budget, the total non-national road grants for 1998 will be at an all-time high of almost £204 million, an increase of £31 million or 18 per cent on the 1997 allocation. Vital work has been done under the restoration programme since its inception. By the end of 1997, more than £186 million will have been paid in grants and more than 15,600 kilometres or 18 per cent of the entire network will have been improved or maintained. While the 1998 allocations under the various grant categories have not yet been determined, it is anticipated that restoration programme grants will be substantially increased. This will result in further significant progress being made in 1998. The physical progress anticipated for 1998 cannot be quantified exactly until the detailed mix of works to be assisted under the restoration programme has been determined. Road reconstruction works per square metre cost two to three times more than surface restoration works.

Mr. Dukes

When will that be done?

Mr. Molloy

Grant allocations to the individual authorities, including the restoration programme, will be announced as early as possible in 1998 and it is now possible to do it as the budget has been delivered prior to Christmas.

Deputy Dukes spoke of the review of regional planning and planning legislation. A major review is being undertaken on the initiative of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey. Much work has been done including a recent conference which was well attended by local authority planning officials, elected members and others.

The Deputy queried the quality of decision making. Members are appointed to An BordPleanála using a formula introduced by a Government in which his party participated and to which my party readily agreed. It is based on the principle of named interested organisations having an entitlement to submit for consideration the names of people who represent various sectors in society, be they business, community, environmental or professional organisations. All such groups are listed and they submit the names. The selection process is not political as had previously been the case and which was the cause of much public comment. However, all matters are up for review because of the comprehensive nature of the review the Minister has initiated. The Deputy and his party can put proposals before the review by submitting them to the Department. We will have an opportunity to discuss this when the Minister introduces the Bill to enlarge the board. He will adhere to the principle of selection as laid out in the original Act whereby named bodies have the right to submit names to avoid a political selection on the part of the Minister.

The Deputy is aware this is something I sought to have introduced in every Bill I have spoken to, in the House in recent years. On some occasions, he supported me in that.

Mr. Dukes

The Minister's mind is not a virgin page on which to be written. He already has certain ideas.

Mr. Molloy

It is a principle I would like to see extended to appointments to other bodies of that nature which make important decisions having a major effect on the environment, the quality of the built environment especially, and which cause major changes in the value of properties. I sometimes wonder how in the past I undertook the responsibilities of making these decisions, when it was the Minister's task to do so. Having done it for three years, I do not recall any exocets which came at me from the past. It was a difficult responsibility for any Minister to undertake. The planning process has progressed and evolved and it is now a more sophisticated and refined instrument. I hope this review being undertaken will force us to further refine the planning process by having all aspects of legislation open for consideration, renewal and improvement.

In regard to obtaining reasons for a decision, the Deputy is aware that, under the Freedom of Information Act, one is entitled to have access to certain documents on how decisions are arrived at. I hope that area will be opened up as well.

Mr. Dukes

That is not the point. The final decision cannot be opposed afterwards.

Mr. Molloy

It can be brought to the courts if it is not satisfactory.

Mr. Dukes

Only on a point of law.

Mr. Molloy

Somewhere along the line someone must make a decision. Whatever legislation is put in place could have an effect on the quality of the people appointed under it. We cannot enter their minds and ensure they will determine a matter which comes before them for decision in a way which pleases everybody. There will still be differing views. It is subjective in terms of what decision one makes. However, I am sure the people will be professionally qualified, their integrity will be unquestionable and they will be able to make good professional judgments. In addition, their decisions will be open to public scrutiny. These factors will ensure good quality.

Mr. Howlin

There should also be short set terms.

Mr. Molloy

I agree. They should not be left too long on the board. There should be a turnover.

Mr. Dukes

That means the Minister of State would be prepared to review a 22 year old procedure.

Mr. Molloy

It is being reviewed already. The Minister has taken that initiative. He outlined the conferences which have taken place. I spoke at one held last week.

Mr. Dukes

My impression is that the Government has decided not to change very much, but we will see.

Mr. Molloy

That is not correct. I hope I did not give that impression because there is no basis for that conclusion. Every aspect is open to consideration and review. The Minister would welcome proposals from Members of the House and the public and political party submissions. I do not understand how the Deputy came to the conclusion that minds are closed on this matter. The Minister took the initiative to open up minds and I hope it will be a comprehensive review. It will only be as good as its input. There must be a good cross-sectional input, for example, from communities with strong views on planning in their areas or on decisions with which they were not happy in the past. It must also cover people who deal with planning applications at local authority level on a daily basis. Members, who are at the coal face, meet applicants but have little, if any, control over the final decision. They have control over the legislation and the procedures put in place to operate it. It will be a valuable exercise if everybody makes a contribution to it. The results should be good.

Mr. McCormack

The Minister of State mentioned that 53 kilometres of national secondary roads will be improved as a result of the extra funds and that 25 local authorities along the western seaboard will be involved. When will information be available on the decisions of the National Roads Authority in that regard?

Mr. Molloy

I stated earlier that I would circulate that document.

Mr. McCormack

Is that the document relating to national secondary roads?

Mr. Molloy

Yes. The money is 1997 expenditure.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

When can we expect to receive it?

Mr. Molloy

We will give it to the Clerk to the Committee and she can circulate it to members this evening.

Mr. Dukes

I asked the Minister of State about staffing for the Flood tribunal and any other matters he may wish to expose to the committee.

Mr. Molloy

It is dangerous for me to say too much because the Deputy would unintentionally tip off staff in a range of relevant areas.

Mr. Dukes

I did not divulge it.

Mr. Molloy

I think the Deputy did so unintentionally in relation to local authorities.

Mr. Dukes

That is a matter of judgment. I asked from where the staff will come?

Mr. Molloy

The staff are all in place.

Mr. Dukes

From where did they come?

Mr. Molloy

They came from the Department and the High Court.

Mr. Dukes

Staffing is not a problem any more?

Mr. Molloy

No.

Mr. Dukes

What is the problem?

Mr. Molloy

Accommodation is not a problem. I said matters which relate to fees were being discussed between the Attorney General and Mr. Justice Flood.

Mr. Dukes

The fees are the problem?

Mr. Molloy

Yes, but that is the only problem at this point. I think it will be resolved soon. The Government is seeking to act in the public interest on this matter to ensure there is no public disquiet about the level of fees, such as that about the beef tribunal. Some discussion still has to take place with the Attorney General on behalf of the Government on this aspect.

Mr. Dukes

I recall who walked us into the cost of the beef tribunal, but that is another day's work.

Chairman

That concludes the committee's consideration of the Supplementary Estimate. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending the meeting. I also thank Members for their valuable contributions.