I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and his officials. Yesterday we finished on section 23 and we will resume on section 24, amendment No. 48, in the name of the Minister.
SECTION 24.
Licensing of Indoor Events Bill 2001: Committee Stage (Resumed).
I move amendment No. 48:
In page 17, line 15, to delete "(£2,362.69)".
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 49 not moved.
I move amendment No. 50:
In page 17, line 18, to delete "(£102,383.32)".
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 51 not moved.
I move amendment No. 52:
In page 17, line 26, to delete "(£393.78)".
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 53:
In page 17, line 34, to delete "(£10,238.33)".
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 54:
In page 17, line 44, to delete "(£2,363.69)".
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 24, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I hope section 24 allays the fears of Deputy Allen. We have taken the opportunity to increase the fines although we cannot index link them. We have increased the fines in section 24 from €635 to €3,000 on summary conviction, and up €130,000 on conviction and indictment. We are taking on board the views of Deputy Allen.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 25 agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS.
I move amendment No. 55:
In page 18, before section 26, to insert the following new section:
26.-The Act of 1981 is amended by substituting the following for section 13:
'13.-A fire authority may advise a planning authority in relation to the functions of the planning authority under section 34 (which relates to permission for development and for the retention of structures) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000.'.".
This amendment merely updates section 13 of the Fire Services Act, 1981. The purpose of this is to reflect the passing into law of the Planning and Development Act, 2000, and it replaces references in existing sections 13, 26 and 27 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 56:
In page 18, before section 26, to insert the following new section:
27.-Section 16 of the Act of 1981 is amended in subsection (2) by inserting after paragraph (d) the following new paragraphs:
'(e) provide such general support and advice to fire authorities in relation to the performance of their functions as it considers appropriate,
(f) make an annual report to the Minister, and such other reports as it considers appropriate, on fire services and fire safety activities of fire authorities.’.”.
Section 16 of the Fire Services Act, 1981, provides for the establishment of a fire services council to provide specified services on behalf of the Minister. The Minister is taking the opportunity in this Bill to amend section 16 of the Fire Services Act, 1981, to further strengthen the existing training and advisory role of the Fire Services Council to make provision for the council to specifically undertake new roles as outlined in subsection (2) (e) and (f).
Subsection (2)(e) refers to the provision of support and advice to fire authorities in the performance of their functions, and subsection (2)(f) provides for making an annual report to the Minister, and such other reports as it considers appropriate, on fire services and fire safety activities of fire authorities. This should improve the public profile and visibility of the fire services in terms of both fire prevention and response services at local and national levels, as envisaged.
The council currently lays its annual report before both Houses under section 16(6) of the Fire Services Act, but there is no national annual report other than statistical returns compiled by the Department on the Trojan work undertaken by the full-time and retained personnel of the fire authorities, which the Minister now feels should be acknowledged by way of a separate annual report.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments No. 58 and 74 form a composite proposal. Amendments No. 57, 58 and 74 may be discussed together, by agreement.
SECTION 26.
I move amendment No. 57:
In page 18, line 15, to delete "by-" and substitute the following:
"-
(a) in subsection (1)(f) by-
(i) the substitution for 'but excluding' of 'including', and
(ii) the insertion after subparagraph (iv) of the following new subparagraph:
'(v) any workplace.',".
Amendment No. 57 is at the request of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment following receipt of a reasoned opinion from the European Commission in respect of Ireland's compliance with Workplace Directive 89/391/EEC. The Department has responsibility for the implementation of the directive and had maintained in its submissions to the Commission that the workplace fire safety requirements under the directive were met by the provisions of the Fire Services Act, 1981.
The Commission, having examined the provision of the Fire Services Act, has raised queries in respect of responsibility for workplace fire safety under that Act and has maintained that, because of the large number of workplaces excluded from the Fire Services Act, the directive is not being implemented properly here. The Commission has been pressing the Department to deal with the matter within a short time frame. If it does not deal with it, Ireland may face legal proceedings.
The amendment replaces the exclusions in section 18 (1) (f) of the Fire Services Act, 1981, in relation to dangerous substances, explosives premises and oil jetties, and the additional express inclusion in the amendment of “any workplace” should indicate clearly to the Commission that fire safety in all such places clearly comes under the provisions of the Fire Services Act. In practice, fire service inspectors are involved in carrying out fire inspections under the dangerous substances legislation and liaise with the Health and Safety Authority on an informal basis in respect of fire safety matters.
The fire authorities, fire inspectors and Health and Safety Authority have been consulted regarding this amendment and are satisfied that it will clarify the position for all concerned. Amendment No. 58, which is coupled with amendment No. 57, is a technical amendment and arises from the insertion of a new paragraph.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 58:
In page 18, paragraph (a), line 16, before “the”, where it firstly occurs, to insert “by”.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 60 and 62 to 66, inclusive, are related. Amendments Nos. 59, 60, and 62 to 66, inclusive, may be discussed together by agreement.
I move amendment No. 59:
In page 18, line 41, after "by" to insert "a Chief Fire Officer or by".
I tabled this amendment because I would like to know if a fire chief acting on behalf of the authority is protected by the terms of the Act. Could that individual be open to litigation subsequently if found not to have the power to represent the authority? Will the Minister of State advise me on that issue?
The fire chief is an authorised officer appointed by the manager of the local authority. An authorised person authorised by the fire authority would include the chief fire officer and other senior fire officers. A number of assistant chief fire officers and other senior officers could be authorised.
That is covered.
The authority is the local authority and the chief fire officer is appointed as an authorised officer.
What happens when there is a contract? Suppose, for example, a chief fire officer decides a premises is unsafe in terms of fire safety and should be closed down but the county manager overrides that decision, or, perhaps, the county manager may override the decision with the authority and support of an elected council. Where stands the chief fire officer in such a case? Does the chief fire officer have the authority to insist that his decision holds or must he comply with a direction given by the county manager or county council? Can the chief fire officer act independently of the county manager and county council?
The chief fire officer makes a recommendation but the manager will sign and make the order. It is a matter for the manager to decide.
Suppose a chief fire officer is of the opinion that a building should be closed and serves a closure notice on it but is overruled by the county manager——
If a decision is to be taken on the spot, the authorised officer may issue the notice. Amendment No. 67 deals with this. Where an authorised officer - probably a chief fire officer - on inspecting a premises discovers a grave and immediate risk is posed to the safety of people, he or she is empowered to serve a closure notice on the spot on the person in control of the premises.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 60:
In page 18, paragraph (b), line 43, after “authority” to insert “in accordance with subsection (11) of this section”.
The purpose of this amendment is to make it clear that the authorised person, that is the inspecting fire officer, acts for the fire authority in undertaking the described function on behalf of the authority. The inclusion of these subsections is consequential on previous amendments. The new subsection (11) is an authorisation provision and provides the fire authority with the mechanism of a county manager's order, by which the county manager authorises individuals to be authorised persons.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 61:
In page 18, after line 46, to insert the following:
"(d) may include, if the owner or occupier declines to accept recommendations, an improvement notice served on the spot by the Inspecting Fire Officer or authorised Officer.”.
What happens if an authorised person gives advice on behalf of the authority and if the owner or occupier declines to accept it? The authorised officer has to get a manager's order. That takes time and the dangerous circumstances could continue to exist. For example, if there were chairs blocking an important exit or doors were chained and the authorised officer opined that the dangerous spot should be immediately eliminated, the Bill does not allow its immediate elimination. This amendment would allow an improvement notice to be served on the spot by the inspecting fire officer or an authorised officer. This would strengthen the position of an authorised officer.
This power is already covered under section 26. It is considered that the recommendation given in writing by the authorised person covering fire safety measures, together with the strengthened powers available to them under the Act, will enable him or her to issue the equivalent to an improvement notice. Section 26 (b) (c) reads, “may include recommendations, orally or in writing, to such persons concerning fire safety measures and procedures.”
Does the section indicate that the notice can be served on the spot? Can this be done as the problem is discovered?
It was somewhat cumbersome prior to this; an official had to either get the manager's order or leave it to the courts. Under this section, it will be a matter for the authorised officer to do so immediately, "orally or in writing".
This could mean the directive would be given orally or in writing subsequent to the manager's order. My proposal is more clear-cut.
We are giving the authorised officer a whole range of options for dealing with various levels of risk. It can be done on the spot.
I understand that in cases where the fire officer withdraws his approval, insurance cover comes into play. No one will keep a premises open if it is not covered by insurance.
This Bill seeks to ensure that insurance is not just available on the day. We have included the maintenance of insurance. I understand what Deputy Allen is saying. If there is a problem the power must be given to an authorised officer to close it on the spot if he deems it to be in the interest of public safety.
That is as I understood it. If there was a more than one-day event and the fire officer was not satisfied within a few hours of the opening of the event, he could withdraw his approval and the insurance cover would automatically cease. No one will continue with an event if insurance cover is not in order, is that right?
We would hope not.
The approval for insurance goes hand in hand with the fire officer's approval and the other necessary approvals.
The insurance would not encompass dealings between the fire authority and the insurance company.
Is not the onus on those running the event that by regulation the fire officer's certificate would have to be in order?
When an application is made, one of the criteria is that insurance is made available.
I believe the onus should be on the authority itself to ensure the safety and rights of patrons. I am not satisfied the previous section referred to by Deputy Gallagher is clear enough in relation to giving the authorised person the right to serve an improvement notice on-the-spot. I do not see a reference to on-the-spot and the previous section requires the fire officer to return and get approval from the manager before directing the owner to eliminate the problem.
This part deals with the power which fire authorities are anxious are given to them and fire officers and deals with the on-the-spot closure.
I do not know what Deputy Gallagher is referring to.
This is in relation to an improvement notice. Is that not the case?
We are saying that an on-the-spot notice, orally or in writing, may be given on behalf of the fire authority by an authorised person - authorised for the purposes of this section by a fire authority.
I am lost again. Where is that?
Subsection (5)(b). It may include recommendations, orally or in writing, to such persons concerned concerning fire safety measures and procedure. To do so, the fire officer does not have to go back to the manager as heretofore for an order, or to the courts. If the fire officer is of the firm opinion that it is in the interests of public safety to issue an on-the-spot notice - orally or in writing - it may include a warning that a fire safety notice may be served under section 20 or that the owner or occupier may be liable to prosecution by reason of a contravention of a provision of this Act.
My advice is that this does not give the inspecting officer the powers to serve a notice on-the-spot and it would strengthen the section if this was added.
My advice from our chief fire officer who is working with us and from our adviser and the fire authorities is that this is adequately covered in paragraph (c).
They are only recommendations.
In subsection (7), the fire authority may issue a warning in writing concerning any matter arising. This is page 19, section 26 (7).
My advice is that the authorised officer would still have to get a manager's order before doing that.
Referring back to page 18, section 26(5)(b), it may be given on behalf of the fire authority by an authorised person, authorised for the purposes of this section by a fire authority.
What about strengthening the section by adding my proposal? Surely it makes it clearer.
This is equivalent to an improvement notice. We dealt with this yesterday. This was given as a recommendation so as not to transfer responsibility from the owner to the inspector. The owner must move the chairs——
I am talking about a notice to move the chairs - an improvement notice.
To avoid any delay, I am prepared to hold back on this amendment if the Minister of State comes back to it again on Report Stage and satisfies me that the authorised officer has the power to serve a notice or directive on-the-spot to remove the point of danger.
If, on consultation, I believe this provision will improve the Bill, I have no difficulty discussing it at a later stage and clarifying the situation.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 62:
In page 19, paragraph (b), line 1, to delete “A fire authority” and substitute “An authorised person”.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 63:
In page 19, paragraph (b), line 10, to delete “A fire authority” and substitute “An authorised person”.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 64:
In page 19, paragraph (b), line 13, to delete “A fire authority” and substitute “An authorised person”.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 65:
In page 19, paragraph (b), line 16, to delete “A fire authority” and substitute “An authorised person”.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 66:
In page 19, line 21, to delete "subsection (6)."." and substitute the following:
"subsection (6).
"(11) A fire authority may authorise a person to be an authorised person for the purposes of this section by an order made by a city manager or a county manager as the case may be.
(12) In this section 'authorised person' means a person appointed in accordance with subsection (11) of this section.'.".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 26, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
I move amendment No. 67:
In page 19, before section 27, to insert the following new section:
"Closure notice. 27.-The Act of 1981 is amended by the insertion, after section 20, of the following new section:
'20A.-(1) If an authorised person is of the opinion that a building or premises poses or is likely to pose a serious and immediate risk, including a risk of fire, to the safety of persons on or in such building or premises notwithstanding the procedures provided for in sections 20 and 23 of this Act, the authorised person may serve a closure notice on a person who owns, occupies or is in control of that building.
(2) A closure notice shall-
(a) state the opinion, referred to in subsection (1), of the authorised person,
(b) specify the matters which in the opinion of the authorised person give or, as the case may be, are likely to give rise to the said risk,
(c) state, where in the opinion of the authorised person, any of the matters referred to in paragraph (b) involves or, as the case may be, will involve a contravention of this Act and specify the reasons for that opinion, and
(d) direct that the activities to which the notice relates shall not be continued by any person unless the matters specified in accordance with paragraph (b) and any contravention of this Act specified in accordance with paragraph (c) have been remedied.
(3) A closure notice shall take effect-
(a) if the notice so declares immediately the notice is received by the person on whom it is served,
(b) in any other case-
(i) if no appeal is taken against the notice, on the expiration of the period during which such an appeal may be taken or the day specified in the notice as that on which it is to come into effect, whichever is the later, or
(ii) in case such an appeal is taken, on the day next following the day on which the notice is confirmed on appeal or the appeal is withdrawn or the day specified in the notice as that on which it is to come into effect, whichever is the later.
(4) The bringing of an appeal against a closure notice which is to take effect in accordance with subsection (3)(a) shall not have the effect of suspending the operation of the notice: provided, however, that the appellant may apply to the Court to have the operation of the notice suspended until the appeal is disposed of and, on such application, the Court may, if it thinks proper to do so, direct that the operation of the notice be suspended until the appeal is disposed of.
(5)(a) A person who is aggrieved by a closure notice may, within the period of 7 days beginning on the day on which the notice is served on him, appeal to a judge of the District Court in the District Court District in which the notice was served in the prescribed manner against the notice and in determining the appeal the judge may-
(i) if the judge is satisfied that in the circumstances of the case it is reasonable to do so, confirm the notice, with or without modification, or
(ii) cancel the notice.
(b) Where at the hearing of an appeal under this section a closure notice is confirmed, notwithstanding subsection (3) the court may, on the application of the appellant, suspend the operation of the notice for such period as in the circumstances of the case the court considers appropriate.
(6) A person who appeals against a closure notice or who applies for a direction suspending the application of the notice under subsection (4) shall at the same time notify the fire authority, as appropriate, of the appeal or the application and the grounds for the appeal or the application and the fire authority shall be entitled to appear, be heard and adduce evidence on the hearing of the appeal or the application.
(7) An authorised person may revoke a closure notice.
(8) (a) Where a closure notice has been served and activities are carried on in contravention of the notice, the High Court may, on the application of an authorised person, by order prohibit the continuance of the activities.
(b) An application to the High Court for an order under this subsection shall be by motion and the Court when considering the matter, may make such interim or interlocutory order (if any) as it considers appropriate and the order by which an application under this subsection is determined may contain such terms and conditions (if any) as to the payment of costs as the Court considers appropriate.
(9) Where a person on whom a closure notice has been served is of the opinion that the matters referred to in the closure notice have been rectified satisfactorily by the date specified in the closure notice, he or she may apply in writing to the authorised person for confirmation that the closure notice no longer has effect and the authorised person may so confirm if he or she is satisfied that such matters have been rectified.
(10) An authorised person may at any time seek confirmation in writing from the person on whom a closure notice has been served that the matters specified in the notice have been complied with.
(11) An authorised person may revoke a closure notice, by writing to the person on whom it was served if-
(a) the authorised person has sought confirmation from the person on whom the notice was served that the matters specified in the closure notice have been complied with,
(b) the authorised person is of the opinion that the matters specified in the closure notice have been complied with or the authorised person is no longer concerned that the activities referred to in subsection (2)(d) no longer pose a risk of fire.
(12) A fire authority may authorise a person to be an authorised person for the purposes of this section by an order made by a city manager or a county manager as the case may be.
(13) In this section "authorised person" means a person appointed in accordance with subsection (12) of this section.'.".
This amendment has been included to deal with the long-standing difficulty in the fire services legislative code in providing immediate powers to fire inspectors in carrying out their duties under the 1981 Act. The amendment will ensure that, on the occasion an authorised officer finds on inspection that, in his or her view, a grave and immediate risk is posed to the safety of people on the premises that he or she is empowered to serve a closure notice on-the-spot on the person in control of the premises.
The notice will enable the officer to close the premises there and then on the night in question. The options currently available are the serving of fire notices by the fire authority under section 20 or an application by the fire authority for a High Court order under section 23, which was designed for immediate closure based on a grave and immediate risk to the safety of persons on a premises. However, the complexity of seeking a court order is problematic. This provides an additional option which we envisage being used by an authorised officer only if and where warranted by both gravity and immediacy of the threat or risk posed to persons on or in a premises.
This is a major amendment of the Fire Services Act, 1981, and I wish to clarify what it means. Elsewhere in the Bill, we have amended the definition of "building" to mean "any building, structure or erection (whether permanent or temporary) of any kind or of any materials, or of any part of such building, structure or erection." We have also amended section 21 so that authorised officers are no longer necessarily fire officers. It can now be any officer of a local authority or a health board. For example, an environmental health officer could be appointed as an authorised officer for the purposes of this legislation.
I note in the first subsection that an authorised officer can order the closure of a building or premises where it is likely to pose a serious or immediate risk, including risk of fire. Am I to understand from this that a building can be ordered closed for risks other than fire risks? In that case, for example, could this legislation authorise an environmental health officer who inspects a private flat and considers it unsuitable for habitation to order its immediate closure? Could, for example, an officer of a local authority who happens upon a Travellers' caravan parked on the side of the road, take the view that that building, which is now defined to include temporary structures, poses a serious risk to persons - it does not have to be a risk of fire - and order its immediate closure?
Many primary schools are sited in temporary buildings, prefabs and so on, waiting for the Department of Education and Science to deliver on the promises that were made before the election to build new school extensions. Could somebody ask for an inspection of the building to be carried out, resulting in the authorised officer's concluding that the building is unsafe and ordering its closure? We tend to assume that we are dealing exclusively with fire risks, but my reading of what is proposed in this amendment is that it is not confined to fire. A serious or immediate risk to safety need not necessarily relate to fire.
We are talking about an indoor event. How can Mr. Gilmore make a comparison with somebody's private flat being inspected and closed down by a health board officer? Does this Bill not deal with the licensing of indoor events?
As I understand it, the Bill is amending the Fire Services Act, 1981. We are finished with indoor events.
Will the Minister clarify this?
Private dwellings are not covered by the Fire Services Act. When we refer to an authorised officer having a warrant from the fire authority, that is only in relation to indoor events as far as the Fire Services Act is concerned. It is a fire officer or chief fire officer who fully understands the implications of this. Environmental health legislation already empowers the environmental health officers to carry out their functions. This year we are only using this Bill as a vehicle for introducing changes to the Fire Services Act and therefore the impression is given that Part 3 of this Bill is relevant to Parts 1 and 2, but they are quite distinct.
Does the Fire Services Act, 1981, apply to apartment blocks?
It does apply to apartment blocks, but not to private dwellings.
Private dwellings in apartment blocks?
It applies to an apartment block, which is a commercial activity. In the Fire Services Act, 1981, section 18 states that it "applies to premises or any part thereof put to any of the following uses . . . use as, or for any purpose involving the provision of, sleeping accommodation, excluding premises consisting of a dwelling house occupied as a single dwelling." The Deputies may not have a copy of the Act.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 27 agreed to.
SECTION 28.
I move amendment No. 68:
In page 20, line 16, to delete "give the reasons" and substitute "state the reasons in writing".
This is merely a drafting amendment, included primarily for clarification of language.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 69 not moved.
I move amendment No. 70:
In page 20, lines 38 and 39, to delete "the particulars of the District Court order" and substitute "the relevant particulars".
This is a technical amendment, necessary because subsection (7) refers to a process under subsection (3) and subsection (6)(b) but only puts in place a mechanism for dealing with the process under subsection (6)(b).
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 71 not moved.
Section 28, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
I move amendment No. 72:
In page 20, before section 29, to insert the following new section:
"29.-The references in section 24 of the Act of 1981 to one month's notice are hereby amended to 21 days' notice.".
I understand that where, for example, an application is being made to the court for a pub licence or the renewal of a pub licence, 21 days' notice is required to the District Court and Circuit Court and to other notice parties, with the exception of the fire authority, for which a month's notice is required. I am proposing here to bring all of the lengths of notice into line. I do not know whether there is any reason that notice to the fire authority should be earlier than to other parties. That is the purpose of the amendment.
Licensing court hearings usually occur in September, including dance hall licensing and club licensing. At this time the authorities carry out between 3,500 and 4,000 inspections on such premises around the country within a very limited time. To limit the notice to fire authorities to 21 days instead of one month would condense the period for inspections. We do not consider it in anyone's best interests to do that. Even though it might only be seven days it is at a time when there is a lot of pressure. It is also required that a month's notice be made to the gardaí for such licences. That is a standard part of District Court procedure. There is already provision in section 24 of the Fire Services Act for the fire authority to agree to accept a shorter period should a particular case warrant it. My experience of local authorities leads me to believe that fire authorities are quite flexible in such instances.
I accept the Minister of State's explanation and withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 29.
I move amendment No. 73:
In page 21, line 23, to delete "1999" and substitute "2001".
This amendment was already discussed with amendment No. 46.
I think the Minister of State accepted it.
As I indicated yesterday, I accept the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 29, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
I move amendment No. 74:
In page 21, after line 36, to insert the following new section:
"30.-Section 19 of the Act of 1981 is amended in subsection (2) by the deletion of paragraphs (c), (d) and (e).”.
Amendment agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.