SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 3 Apr 2007

2007 Annual Output Statement for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Noel Ahern and Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. I also welcome the officials from the Department.

The purpose of the meeting is to consider Vote 25, the Estimate for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The clerk has circulated a proposed timetable. It will allow for opening statements by the Minister and Ministers of State and Opposition spokespersons, followed by an open discussion on individual subheads by way of a question and answer session. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. Roche)

I welcome the opportunity to present and discuss the Department's Revised Estimate for 2007 with the committee. A briefing note has been made available. I am joined by the Ministers of State, Deputies Noel Ahern and Batt O'Keeffe, who will also make statements on aspects of the Vote.

Members will be aware that Departments are required from this year to prepare an annual output statement to be submitted to the select committee in tandem with the annual Estimates for each Department. The annual output statement for my Department for 2007 has been circulated to committee members. The preparation of the annual output statement is an initiative introduced by Government to ensure greater parliamentary involvement in the budget and Estimates process and a greater focus on outputs to be achieved from investment. From next year, in addition to projecting output for the year under review, each Department will be required to report on actual output achieved the previous year. This is one of the most important and far-reaching innovations in terms of public finance and administration. For years there have been arguments about the need for public finance to be output related as opposed to purely input measured.

Before I set out the priorities for 2007, it is worth recalling how we have reached this starting point. In the space of ten years we have built a new robust and successful economy, underpinned by the sound policies of the Government which have ensured the fruits of our success have been cultivated carefully, used wisely and distributed fairly. We have developed an economy that is the envy of many and a model that others seek to follow. We have seen truly historic achievements such as the ending of high unemployment and mass emigration and the achievement of living standards unimagined not so long ago. At the root of this exceptional performance is a deeply embedded commitment to pursue policies across Government that will sustain our economic progress.

Under the policies of this Government we are well prepared for the future. The new national development plan has set out a major seven-year investment programme which has at its core investment and other policies to provide for a better quality of life for all the population, urban and rural. Sound management of our public finances will ensure that we have the resources to deliver on the economic and social programme set out in the plan.

The Estimate before the committee today is for gross spending of €2.926 billion by the Department this year, the first year of the new national development plan. This is the largest ever State investment on services provided through the local government system, up by 8% on the outturn for 2006. It is important that there is increased provision of financial resources to meet demands arising from economic growth and demographic change. Key performance indicators and delivery of outputs are the only real measure of how well my Department, the local authorities and other agencies within my remit are doing. I place the strongest possible emphasis on monitoring performance and promoting best practice to maximise the benefits of the considerable resources being made available.

The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will deal in detail with housing. However, I will make some opening comments. There have been major advances in housing over the past decade with ten years of record output and increased options open to people seeking to avail of social and affordable housing. The backdrop to the 2007 Estimate from a housing perspective is the new policy statement, Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities, which my colleague and I launched in February. Under this policy statement and the terms of Towards 2016, the Government is committed to the commencement or acquisition of 27,000 new units of social housing over the period 2007-2009; full implementation of the rental accommodation scheme; and the delivery of 17,000 affordable homes in the period 2007 to 2009. The resources provided for housing in the 2007 Estimates of €1.5 billion will enable year one of this ambitious programme to be progressed and key outputs to be achieved in this regard are set out. The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will deal with this in detail.

The Estimate provides some €427 million for investment in water infrastructure this year. In addition the €20 million capital carryover from 2006 will be applied to this sector, giving an overall provision of €447 million.

As set out on page 12 of the annual output statement, it is envisaged that 40 major water and sewerage schemes will be brought to completion this year and that work will start on a further 80 schemes. I am reviewing the current water services investment programme with a view to rolling it forward to cover the period 2007-2009. I expect to make announcements on this shortly.

The Government's commitment to sustained improvement and expansion of national water services infrastructure is reflected in the €4.7 billion provision in the national development plan. This is an increase of 27% on the €3.7 billion spent under its predecessor. The €3.7 billion spent between 2000 and 2006 has resulted in major progress in preserving and improving environmental standards, as well as supporting unprecedented social and economic growth and development in every part of the country. Some of the more significant achievements have included increased compliance with the requirements of the EU Urban Wastewater Treatment Directive from 25% in 2000 to 90% at the end of 2006 — all the remaining schemes necessary for full compliance with the directive are included in my Department's Water Services Investment Programme 2005-2007. The provision between 2000 and 2006 of additional wastewater treatment capacity equivalent to the needs of a population of 3.1 million is a very significant achievement.

Taking the period 1998 to date, we have created additional water treatment capacity for 1.2 million people. There has also been the completion of over 350 schemes, including some major wastewater projects in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Drogheda, Dundalk and many other areas. This has resulted in massive improvement. We have seen the proof in the fact that we have more blue flag beaches than ever before. Under the national development plan, we will take the necessary steps to meet identified short and medium-term needs and undertake longer-term planning to address strategic requirements, such as the projected demand for substantial expansion of water and wastewater services in the greater Dublin and Cork areas.

Investment in the rural water programme has increased enormously in recent years in response to quality deficiencies in the group water schemes sector. At the beginning of March, I announced a record capital provision of €142 million for investment in rural water services this year. This is 12 times more than the annual amount spent in 1997. The comprehensive programme of work envisaged for 2007 involving the completion of new water treatment plants, together with upgrading works already completed and the taking in charge by local authorities of existing group schemes, will secure improved water supplies for about 60,000 rural households.

This year will see investment in our regional and local roads reach a record level once again at €607 million. This represents a very substantial increase of 9% on last year's record allocation, or an increase of almost €50 million. Our regional and local road network plays a very important economic role in Ireland; it provides mobility within and between local communities and economies as well as providing vital links to the strategic national road network. Some 94% of the country's roads are non-national roads and they carry around 60% of all road traffic.

The restoration programme continues to be a central part of the non-national roads investment programme. This year, a sum of €225 million has been allocated for this programme, representing an increase of €20 million that will allow significant progress to be made in addressing deficiencies in the network. On top of this, I am providing €81 million for restoration maintenance works to ensure that the investment made under the restoration programme will be preserved.

This year over €46 million has been allocated for new strategic non-national roads schemes. Some 24 projects are receiving allocations in 2007, which will facilitate the provision of around 44,000 housing units and open up over 900 hectares of industrial land for development.

The financial allocation to the Environmental Protection Agency has increased significantly in recent years as the responsibilities of the agency have increased. New roles and challenges under the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Directive, the Water Framework Directive, the Air Framework Directive, and to meet the reporting requirements of certain UN and EU conventions require additional resources, specialised equipment, accommodation and laboratory space. Its licensing and enforcement activities have also intensified in recent times. The Exchequer provision this year of €27.5 million represents an increase of 50% on the 2006 outturn.

Almost €4 million is being provided for payment of the 2007 grant to the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to cover the net cost of the institute's day-to-day operations. The institute plays an important role in supporting the Government's ongoing campaign against the Sellafield operations in the UK, including the provision of scientific advice to my Department and to the State's legal team.

Climate change is a top priority for the Government. Yesterday I published the revised national climate change strategy which confirms that we are on course to meet our commitments under the Kyoto Protocol in the period 2008-2012; and initiates preparations to meet more demanding emission reduction targets endorsed by Heads of State and Government in March in the period post-2012. We will deliver on our Kyoto commitments through a variety of domestic measures to reduce emissions throughout the economy, including through participation by our heaviest emitting installations in the EU emissions trading scheme. These measures will be supplemented, as necessary, by the purchase of carbon allowances which will be available to all parties through the flexible mechanisms explicitly provided for in the protocol. The Government has designated €270 million under the national development plan for such investment. This is in addition to the investment of €20 million in 2006. Some 80% of our requirements will be met from domestic measures.

Turning to performance and efficiency in local government, an area close to my heart, a total of €1.5 billion is being provided to local authorities this year through the local government fund. Efficiency in the use of funding by local authorities is essential to ensure that taxpayers get a fair return from their investment. An independent consultancy review of local government finance, published in March 2006, acknowledged that local authorities have achieved significant efficiencies in a number of areas and are focused on pursuing ongoing improvements. I am anxious to ensure that the efficiency agenda is further embedded across all local authority policies and programmes. To this end I have recently amended the Local Government Act 2001 to provide for the mandatory establishment of audit committees to ensure a more comprehensive audit function in all local authorities. These committees, to be established this year, will have an independent role in advising the council on financial reporting processes, internal control, risk management and audit matters, as part of the systematic review of the control environment and governance procedures of local authorities.

In addition, these committees will assess and promote efficiency and value for money across all local authority functions. I have long believed that elected members of local authorities find themselves in a difficult position when it comes to judging efficiency and they need the type of supports that will be provided through these committees. Key outputs for 2007 in this and other areas that will strengthen local government's performance are included on page 16 of the annual output statement.

Local government has a key community development role. I introduced a new social and community facilities capital scheme last year and announced capital grants totalling €7.4 million under the scheme. Around 20 projects funded under the scheme will be completed during 2007. I will be continuing and consolidating the scheme this year and recently announced details of a further €5.1 million for capital grants during this year.

My Department has a total multi-annual funding allocation of almost €53 million for the period 2005-2009 to assist the delivery of the national disability strategy by local authorities, the Department and bodies under the aegis of my Department. Funding of €15 million is available in 2007. Local authorities will continue in 2007 to address the priority needs of people with disabilities by providing and improving access to public buildings, roads, footpaths, amenity areas and heritage sites. In addition, the funding will continue to contribute towards the training of relevant local authority personnel in order that they will be able to adequately address the needs of the disabled in the context of the strategy.

In the period 1997 to 2006 my Department has provided over €90 million towards the local authority public library service. This is one of the most important of all public services and the public has shown a great affinity for it. On foot of this expenditure, supplemented by local authorities from their own resources, 57 new library buildings were opened by the end of 2006. The 19% increase in the 2007 provision for this area reflects an ongoing commitment to the service and, as set out on page 20 of the annual output statement, will allow for the completion of six new library projects this year with a further four projects to commence.

We are progressing the e-government agenda in the local government system this year. Building on the success of the online motor tax facility which has been enthusiastically received and used by over 34% of the motoring public nationally, we now propose to complement the service with another Internet-based facility which will allow approved motor dealers to notify us of changes in ownership of vehicles purchased and sold by them. There are currently nearly 900,000 changes of ownership processed manually by my Department's staff in Shannon and this is growing at the rate of over 10% per annum. We estimate that some 600,000 transactions relate to vehicles which are either purchased or sold by motor traders, with the remainder being attributed to private sales. The project to deliver this new service is already at an advanced stage and the system should be available generally later this year, as set out on page 16 of the annual output statement. I believe that will be a phenomenal improvement and, having spoken with the personnel in Shannon, who greatly impressed me, I have no doubt that the system is robust and will be welcomed by everybody.

The investment of over €42 million in heritage conservation in 2007 confirms my Department's commitment to the conservation of our built heritage throughout the country. Regeneration of our historic buildings fosters pride in a community, it frequently acts as a catalyst for further heritage projects in an area and it makes our towns and villages more attractive places in which to live and to visit. In addition to funding for programmes operated by my Department, I have also provided €11.8 million for the Heritage Council for its excellent work in the protection and conservation of our heritage, and €5.5 million to the Heritage Trust for endowments to contribute towards the conservation, maintenance and presentation of properties it acquires.

Turning to natural heritage, a provision of €35.5 million is being made available for the programme of work undertaken by the National Parks and Wildlife Service. This represents an increase of 18% on the 2006 outturn and will provide for works and services at national parks and nature reserves, as well as strategic land acquisitions around these properties, research, species protection and the designation of special areas of conservation. The process of designating sites to meet EU obligations continues to be a priority in 2007. Key outputs for 2007 in this area are included on page 12 of the annual output statement.

Provision of nearly €23 million is being made this year in respect of the urban and village renewal measures of the regional operational programmes 2000-2006, under which local authorities receive funding for environmental improvement projects in city, town and village locations. Expenditure under this programme is expected to exceed €150 million towards more than 900 individual projects and will be completed by early 2008. Proposals are being finalised for investment in urban regeneration post 2007 in accordance with the national development plan.

I thank the committee for its attention and for the courtesy it has shown to me over the year. It is clear that my Department has at its disposal a considerable level of resources this year. We will be working in collaboration with local authorities to deliver on our mandate under this Estimate. What I have set out in my statement should be taken in conjunction with the more detailed overview and the annual output statement already circulated to Members.

The Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will now deal with the housing components of the Estimate.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. N. Ahern)

This has been a decade of unprecedented growth in the housing sector. That being said, last week we launched the national housing conference agenda. The debate was on the challenges in the future if we are to deliver on demand for the amount and quality of housing.

In February we launched a new housing policy statement, Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities, an important companion piece to the national development plan. The NDP provides resources of €18 billion and Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities sets the policy agenda to ensure best outcomes from that investment. The fundamental aim of the policy is to develop the housing sector over the next ten years by providing more and better quality housing in a very strategic way. The €18 billion will help to achieve this. Specifically we have made a number of commitments in our policy document. We are introducing new schemes to support social housing tenants seeking home ownership. That would include the incremental purchase scheme and the sale of flats scheme.

Last week we issued a guidance document to local authorities to support the building of sustainable communities and we are providing resources through a sustainable communities fund to support regeneration and tackle anti-social behaviour. We are bringing forward new legislation to support the social housing reform programme and the use of land for housing. We are stressing the importance of maintaining the quality of social housing by spending almost €2 billion a year on housing renewal. Some 27,000 new social homes will be commenced or acquired and 17,000 affordable units in the initial three-year period, 2007-2009, of the national development plan. The resources being made available under the NDP will allow us to continue that activity post-2009. It is estimated that overall under the national development plan about 140,000 households will have their needs met.

The Department has ongoing consultation with local authorities. They have developed five-year action plans covering the period to the end of 2008. This helps to identify the priority needs of each local authority. Discussions are held with local authorities on an annual basis, reviewing progress and identifying the targets. We have committed unprecedented financial resources to housing. In the nine years from 1997 to 2006, more than €8 billion in Exchequer funding has been spent on the range of housing programmes. This year the Estimate provides for almost €1.5 billion in capital and current Exchequer expenditure and that figure rises to over €2 billion when account is taken of non-voted expenditure.

The local authority housing construction programmes continue to be the main instrument for the provision of social housing. This year's figure will be €925 million, while there is a figure of over €150 million for the voluntary and co-operative housing sector. These are very significant financial commitments which are continuing to make a very significant difference. Since 1997, 41,000 new local authority houses have been completed and the voluntary sector has built about 11,000 houses. The affordable housing and shared ownership schemes, largely supported through non-voted Housing Finance Agency finance, have made an important contribution to easing the affordability problem. In the past nine years, about 15,500 transactions were completed and the contribution of Part V has grown steadily, with an estimated output of affordable units of about 1,600 last year.

Some key outputs this year include the commencement or acquisition of about 6,500 units, including regeneration ones, and the completion of about 5,500 units. There have been major advances in housing over the past decade. Overall supply has increased dramatically and the options open to people seeking to avail of social and affordable housing have improved. However, we recognise that there are still many more people to be looked after. The challenge is to build sustainable and inclusive communities. This will benefit the whole of society, but especially those households which are disadvantaged.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. B. O’Keeffe)

Last Thursday I announced the local improvement scheme for 2007. We have provided €30 million this year, a 20% increase over 2006, two and a half times the allocation for 2005 and eight times the 1997 allocation. This sends out the message to rural communities that we as a Government are committed to sustaining those communities, particularly in isolated and depopulated areas.

The vast majority of the busiest fire stations are now modern, up-to-date buildings with all the facilities required for a modern fire brigade. The fleet consists mainly of modern, purpose-built appliances. This arises from an investment of €142 million since 1998 which has greatly enhanced the capacity of the fire service. We will maintain that momentum in 2007. We have allocated €20.951 million and, as set out in the annual output statement, our target is to commence the construction of ten new fire stations in 2007 and bring to completion the 12 stations already under construction.

We will spend €85 billion on current and capital environmental programmes, all funded from the plastic bag and landfill levy. The Department provides support to a number of anti-litter initiatives aimed at raising awareness of litter pollution and energising the community at local level and local authorities to become involved in anti-litter activities. Prior to the introduction of the plastic bag levy, 1.2 billion disposable plastic bags were given away free by retailers and these accounted for 5% of all litter. Since the introduction of the levy there has been a reduction of 90% in the use of plastic bags and they now account for only a fraction of the previous level.

We have allocated over €100 million in capital grants to assist local authorities in recycling projects. Between 1998 and 2005 the number of bring banks at 1,937 locations had risen by 130%, while amenity sites at 81 locations have risen by 170%. We will continue to give further financial support. This year €51 million will be ploughed into this area, made up of €10 from the Exchequer and €41 million from the environment fund.

The national waste report 2005 indicates that the recovery rate for packaging is 60%, which means that the mandatory EU target was exceeded by 10% and reached the 2011 target six years ahead of schedule. Ireland was one of the few members which decided to implement the weed directive in 2005. In the first year of operation, we exceeded the collection target set by the EU. That was 27,700 tonnes, the equivalent of 6.5 kilograms per head of population. We put €10 million into the Race Against Waste campaign and that three-year scheme is coming to an end. Generally speaking, there is a far greater awareness of this issue and we are now becoming a recycling society.

Water quality cannot be overlooked. The Government is committed to tackling water pollution from all sources. Compared with other EU waters, Irish waters are generally in good condition. My Department is continuing its major programme of investment in sewerage infrastructure. A broad range of activities is being carried out under the EU water framework directive, which requires that there should be no deterioration in the existing status of any waters and that at least good status is achieved in all waters by 2015. Progress in this area is evidenced by the increase in the length of unpolluted river channels from 67% for the period 1995 to 1997 to 70% for the period 2001 to 2003.

The 2005 EPA bathing water quality reports point to the positive impact of waste water treatment facilities on bathing water quality. Some 96% of the bathing areas monitored complied with the mandatory EU standards, while 91% complied with the much stricter EU guideline standards compared with 84% in 1997.

The year 2005 was a good year in terms of air quality. We complied with all the standards in force across Europe for pollutants. The main threat is increasing emissions from transport, particularly nitrogen dioxide and particulate matter levels in urban areas. Standards for road vehicles are set at European level and Ireland has strongly supported the adoption of the stringent methods set out. In December last year we agreed new standards which will further reduce tail pipe emissions from cars and light commercial vehicles from 2009.

Environmental noise is a symptom of a very active and busy lifestyle and arises from many sources, but local authorities now have significant powers to intervene to prevent or limit noise pollution from a wide range of activities. These have proved effective over the years, particularly since they have been strengthened by the environmental noise regulations which came into effect in March 2006.

Mr. O’Dowd

I have some specific questions regarding the rental allowance scheme. I understand it is not functioning very well in some areas. An increasing number of people in my constituency, because their rent allowance has been capped at what they believe to be an unacceptable level, cannot get good quality accommodation. There seems to be a policy within the Department regarding the expenditure of that money. How much was the underspend last year? What is the progress on that front to date? The issue is the regional or county cap, which is working significantly against people in urban areas like Drogheda. The scheme in principle is very good, but I would like the detail on this aspect of it.

The Minister might also comment on the progress regarding social and affordable housing. I welcome the fact that the Department is interacting with councils as to their performance. Some councils are very good, while others are very poor. What is happening to the budgetary allocation which is not drawn down by councils?

I have raised a number of times the issue of uncollected motor tax. According to one of the successful freedom of information requests to the Department, it is estimated that one in ten people was not paying motor tax in 2002. What is the anticipated uncollected motor tax for this year? What further steps are being taken to collect it?

The issue in the national mind is the situation in Galway and the Minister's comments about the funding which was apparently made available to Galway County Council but left unused regarding water and sewerage services. This is a critical issue because what has happened in Galway will probably happen elsewhere. The growth of towns and urban areas is putting tremendous pressure on existing water and sewerage systems, many of which are at or beyond their capacity. The Minister might explain why the money allocated to Galway was not taken up and what happens when money is not drawn down on a year by year basis. Have any other public health issues arisen in other areas which we do not know about?

Mr. Roche

I will start with the situation in Galway, which is very pressing. I travelled to Galway on Friday to meet both the county and city councils because I was deeply concerned that an important modern city of 90,000 people should be without water. I also looked at the two Terryland plants. I would be less than truthful if I said I was not shocked at the state of the old plant. In the water services investment programme published in April 2002, funding for replacement of the old Terryland scheme was allocated. Galway County Council was notified of the approval in the Department's circular letter of 16 April 2002. When the next phase of the water programme was published in August 2003, funding was again improved for the start of that scheme. The circular letter of August 2003 indicated specific funding for the replacement of the plant at Terryland. In October 2003 the Department agreed to the new intake for the Terryland works being separated from the main scheme and being progressed. The council was advised accordingly. The Water Services Investment Programme 2004-2006, published in May 2004, again reflected the reality that funding was available for this scheme, as did the subsequent water services investment programme which covers the period 2005-2007. It is actually referenced in four separate programmes. In addition to those programmes, the council would also have carried out two assessments of water needs during the period.

The situation in Galway requires short-term, medium-term and long-term action. The provision of clean, potable water to households who are affected by the water boiling notice is very much a matter for the local council. I indicated my surprise at the reality that householders still have to buy bottled water. The advice to boil water is adequate, as boiling will deal with the parasitic bug. I asked the council to consider how it would progress, as other councils have, when there is a breakdown in the delivery of a water service in the short term. I also indicated that while I was not prepared to write a blank cheque I would look at any expenses arising. Frankly, I am a little surprised that as we meet here today there are still discussions going on as to how to provide a short-term water supply.

The second short-term measure agreed was to take water from the existing regional scheme in County Galway — this is the Tuam scheme. Currently the Tuam scheme operates with two pumps. There is capacity to bring a third pump into operation. There is also an interconnector pipe from the Tuam plant which can be used to take clean potable water to Galway and store it in the newer Terryland plant, where there is large storage capacity. To take the water supply from Tuam to Galway would take a number of weeks — not months, as suggested in a report I heard last night on the national radio station. As the additional water comes in from Tuam, it will allow the old Terryland plant to be phased out. There has to be a delay in doing that because there must be sufficient water through the system for flushing toilets and other basic requirements.

In addition to the water coming from Tuam, demand management measures — requiring people not to use hoses, for example — would mean that these medium-term measures could be operational within a number of weeks, not months. In the medium term I have requested the councils to progress the acquisition of a package plant to provide 18 million litres of drinkable water a day. This will be in addition to the capacity of the new Terryland plant and will more than offset the loss from the closure of the old Terryland plant. This will give a full supply in Galway. That plant could be brought into operation in the autumn. I have also indicated to the council that I expect it now to fast track the basic work which still has to be done on the replacement scheme for Terryland.

Rather than the histrionics engaged in by councillors in Galway at the weekend, who said they were not aware that €21.5 million was available to their city — something I find very difficult to believe — there should be a combined focus by the county council and the city council. To be fair, the staff on both sides have indicated that they are willing to work very quickly. They have already put in a lot of effort. The two managers are willing to fast track the proposals I have outlined and my Department will be working closely with the city council to progress the long-term solution, which is the building of the new Terryland plant.

The cost of a package plant is significant. The council mentioned a cost of €3.5 million, while my Department's estimate is significantly higher. The new Terryland plant can be designed to incorporate the package plant, so that there is no waste of public resources.

Mr. O’Dowd

I find it incredible that a council could be told it was getting €20 million to augment its water supply and that it did not do it. What is the explanation?

Mr. Roche

I did not get a credible explanation.

Mr. O’Dowd

They got the letter, they knew the money was there. It is obviously a critical issue.

Mr. Roche

It is a critical issue. I went to Galway on Friday mainly to find out how to fast track a solution.

Mr. O’Dowd

I accept that.

Mr. Roche

Having done that, we have to examine where communication breakdowns occurred.

Mr. O’Dowd

A very important notice has been lost in the system. The Minister is saying there is no blame attaching to people.

Mr. Roche

I am not saying that.

Mr. O’Dowd

I cannot understand how the administrators in Galway never got the letter or, if they did receive it, they put it in the dustbin. That seems to be the import of what the Minister is saying. It does not make sense that it would not be a priority.

Mr. Roche

It is a public document. It is not the case that somebody did not get a letter or misfiled a letter. I share the Deputy's sense of mystification as to how councillors, one of whom said he had worked hard for ten years to ensure clean water, could accept what I saw in the old Terryland plant. If either Deputy O'Dowd or Deputy Gilmore—

Mr. O’Dowd

Whatever councillors say or see, it is the duty of administrators, particularly the engineering people, to augment and improve the water supply. I am talking about their actions rather than what councillors say.

Mr. Roche

It is a combined responsibility in the local authority. We elect local councils to deliver local services.

Mr. O’Dowd

I am not blaming anybody but I am trying to understand. The Oireachtas provided the money, the Department allocated it and nothing happened.

Mr. Roche

That is correct.

Mr. O’Dowd

That is my concern. What did the Department do when the money was not taken up? Did it get an explanation?

Mr. Roche

Money does not lie fallow. It is drawn down and used in the Department. If there is a carryover, as there frequently is, the money is used for alternative purposes. Management is clearly a matter for the local authorities.

Mr. O’Dowd

The Department would not have sent a letter indicating the provision of €21 million unless there was a costing and it went through the budget. Does the Department have systems in place to follow up, perhaps to contact the manager on the matter? Is there a follow-up as to progress when money has been allocated? If such a process does not exist, will the Minister put one in place?

Mr. Roche

The intriguing thing is that there were four separate notifications, as well as two water assessments done by the local council — the listing actually indicates five. Prioritisation is a matter for the local authority. Money is allocated for large capital schemes over a period of years. The extraordinary thing about the Galway issue is that somehow nobody triggered an alarm about the fact that they are still taking water into a very old plant at Terryland. I am not blaming personnel in the council, but it is inconceivable that people on the ground did not raise the alarm.

Mr. O’Dowd

The alarm I am talking about is the one which did not sound in the Department. The alarm did not sound in Galway, although the money was allocated and they were informed more than once. What alarm bells will ring in the Department from now on in such a situation? Given the unseemly nature of this problem, the public health issues and the concerns, what is the Department doing to ensure this does not happen again?

Mr. Roche

We need to be very careful that we do not further eviscerate local government. Deputy O'Dowd and I agree on this if nothing else. We elect local councils to do a job. Local democracy is about subsidiarity. If there was a breakdown, as there certainly was in this case, we will have to see how we can overcome that breakdown. That is what I did on Friday. In the national development plan there is a feedback mechanism. We will shortly make a further allocation for a water services programme for 2007. I guarantee that a copy will go to each and every councillor. If I or any of the Deputies present were on the council, we would be asking questions about Terryland. I do not want to get involved in the blame game, as I said, but I need to point out that when I was in Galway on Friday, I noted the shocking inability of the elected representatives to come to grips with this problem.

Mr. O’Dowd

I am not here to gainsay the Minister's views in that regard, as I was not in Galway on Friday. As a Member of the Oireachtas, I am responsible for questioning whether sufficient budgetary allocations were made and appropriate systems put in place.

Mr. Roche

Yes.

Mr. O’Dowd

I do not criticise the councillors in question. My experience of local government is that it comes through the manager when he or she presents an estimate. When I asked the Department for a copy of all the Minister's circular letters, I was told that they were not available. If one wants to check certain matters, one has no way of doing so. Perhaps they are issued via an internal communications system, but I cannot ask to see what has gone out. Perhaps there should be more transparency in this respect. I do not suggest the Minister is trying to hide the circulars, but they should be more easily available to those who are concerned about these issues. I would like to know how many circulars were sent out and what is going on. We will have more accountability if we have more transparency. I reject the Minister's unfair criticism of the councillors involved. I acknowledge his commitment that there will be hell to pay from now on in terms of follow-up——

Mr. Roche

I would like to take up that issue. I did not criticise what was done over a period of time. I criticised the unseemly behaviour of a number of councillors on Friday.

Mr. O’Dowd

I do not think that is fair.

Mr. Grealish

I agree with the Minister. Some of what happened when the Minister was in Galway was disgraceful.

Mr. Roche

Everybody should have been sitting around the table to look for a solution.

Mr. O’Dowd

Absolutely.

Mr. Roche

I do not think the histrionics we saw, both outside—

Mr. O’Dowd

I read in a newspaper that some people were refused entry to the meeting.

Mr. Roche

I want to make the point that—

Mr. O’Dowd

We need to move on. I would like to speak about the Department's systems.

Mr. Roche

I would prefer to respond to the fair point the Deputy has made. I said before I went to Galway that I was prepared to meet all or any of the councillors. The councillor who protested most vociferously about not being left into the meeting was present in the room when the meeting started. He then made an objection when another elected representative entered the room. That was witnessed by the media. We will not solve the problems in Galway in such a manner.

Mr. O’Dowd

I accept that.

Mr. Roche

I want to clarify what I said earlier. I am not making a global condemnation of the councillors of Galway, some of whom were very anxious to solve this problem. If Deputy O'Dowd talks to his party colleagues in Galway, they will bear out my contention that one or two councillors did not seem to share that anxiety.

Mr. Grealish

Deputy O'Dowd needs to be aware of who is trying to score political points in Galway.

Mr. Roche

We should not go there. I agree with Deputy O'Dowd that the complexity of local government necessitates the clearer preparation and publication of figures and data. I said to him previously at this forum that targets must be set and published in many areas.

Mr. O’Dowd

Absolutely.

Mr. Roche

The output arrangements about which we are talking will help to facilitate this.

Mr. O’Dowd

Yes.

Mr. Roche

If output measures are in place, councillors can easily assimilate the data. They can say "We are here, but we should be back there", and ask why there is such a difference.

Mr. O’Dowd

Yes.

Mr. Roche

I do not have details of the communications arrangements which operate in Galway, but I think more direct information should go into councillors' hands.

Mr. O’Dowd

Absolutely. The public should also be able to avail of such information.

Mr. Roche

Yes. All the data in question are published. The public cannot be expected to read everything. It is important to put relevant information into the hands of councillors.

Mr. O’Dowd

I accept that the issue of information is important. The Minister referred to a couple of circular letters which are not publicly available, as I understand it.

Mr. Roche

They are not available, but the programme is.

Mr. O’Dowd

When I tried to access and examine some of the circulars, I found that they were not available. I accept that there are hundreds of them, if not thousands.

Mr. Roche

Does the Deputy refer to circular letters?

Mr. O’Dowd

Yes. They are not available. They are available within the Department, but——

Mr. Roche

The Secretary General has informed me that there are thousands of such letters, going back many years.

Mr. O’Dowd

I understand that.

Mr. Roche

The more recent circulars are available on the Department's website. If the Deputy thinks there is a deficiency in——

Mr. O’Dowd

I would like to emphasise one point. I appreciate the Chairman's latitude in this respect. If the Minister is referring to correspondence that was properly between the Department and the council, it should be available on an ongoing basis. We do not need to go back two years, but we should put such circulars in the public domain from now on. It is simply a matter of itemising them on the Department's website.

Mr. Roche

Councillors have access to circulars.

Mr. O’Dowd

What about the public?

Mr. Roche

They are being posted on the Internet. There are thousands of them.

Mr. O’Dowd

I understand that.

Mr. Roche

If too much material is made available on the Department's website, people will not penetrate it at all.

Mr. O’Dowd

Can the website indicate the major areas to which the circular letters relate?

Chairman

Deputy Gilmore wants to ask a question.

Mr. Roche

That is a good idea because we are in danger of getting bogged down in a welter of detail without directly answering Deputy O'Dowd's question. I would be sympathetic to publishing relevant information. I am a great believer in publishing material on the Department's website because it ensures that people cannot say they did not know.

Chairman

I call Deputy Gilmore on a related issue.

Mr. Gilmore

I will keep the discussion about the specific problem in Galway going before I make some general comments on the Estimate. We need to acknowledge the gravity of the fact that the people of one of our major cities cannot drink water from the public supply. Approximately 150 people have become seriously ill as a result of drinking water, so this is not a small matter. If this were to happen in any city in mainland Europe, there would be more than token protests outside the city hall. People would be on the streets and calls would be made for the resignation of the city authorities.

Mr. Roche

The presence of cryptosporidium is one of the major universal problems associated with surface water systems throughout the world. There were some major cryptosporidium outbreaks in Australia last year. One such outbreak affected several million people. This problem is not unique to Ireland or to Galway. Problems have been caused by many outbreaks in the South, as well as in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. I accept that is cold comfort to the people of Galway, who still have to buy their water. I assure the Deputy that cryptosporidium poses a fairly universal threat to all surface water systems.

Mr. Gilmore

The people of Galway will be greatly comforted to know they do not suffer alone.

Mr. Roche

That is precisely the point I was making. I said that it is cold comfort for them.

Mr. Gilmore

This is a serious problem.

Mr. Roche

It is very serious.

Mr. Gilmore

Yes. I agree with the Minister that the problem has to be solved immediately. Clean and potable water has to be restored to the people of Galway as quickly as possible, the necessary upgrade of the Terryland plant needs to be done and the source of the pollution has to be identified and dealt with. The Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government needs to explore further some of the accountability issues that have been raised. If the committee were not in its dying days, I would propose that it should investigate what happened in Galway. I recommend that the next environment committee should conduct an investigation of recent events. Those who have responsibilities in this regard, including the elected members of Galway City Council, the council's officials and the relevant officials in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, should be called before the committee to explain what has happened.

A number of aspects of this affair do not make sense to me. The Minister has said that money has been available to Galway City Council since 2002. I have read — the Minister can correct me if I am wrong — that the council is preparing a brief for the consultants in respect of the Terryland plant. The council is not even at the starting line — it is still togging out in the dressing room. A brief is prepared for consultants at an early stage in the whole process. Was a report on the Terryland plant ever prepared for the elected members of Galway City Council? Did the members of the council ever get a report at one of their meetings from the city manager, outlining what was available at the Terryland plant and what it was proposed to do?

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has responsibilities under the water framework directive and various other EU directives. The Government has been brought to the European Court of Justice and criticised by the European Commission so many times that it must have crossed somebody's mind that nobody was taking up the big bucket of money that was available for the development of a water treatment facility in Galway city. It must have occurred to somebody in the Department that something was amiss. Did any departmental official contact someone in Galway City Council to ascertain what was causing the delay in the request to advance the scheme?

Galway is represented by a couple of the Minister's colleagues in the Cabinet and at Minister of State level. When I served in government, I occasionally asked my ministerial colleagues to outline what was happening with money that had been made available by any Department for my constituency. Did any of the Ministers and Ministers of State who have spoken in recent days about the unspent €21.5 million ask the Minister, Deputy Roche, what was causing the delay? Did they want to know where the money was, or why it was not being drawn down or spent?

Can the Minister give the committee details of the performance indicators for local authorities which applied in this instance to the sanitary services and engineering divisions of Galway City Council and Galway County Council? How did the councils fare when the performance indicators were analysed? Did they qualify for bonuses on the basis of the performance indicators? People are entitled to know what has occurred in this instance. The Minister has informed the committee that Galway City Council was told on four separate occasions in 2002, 2003 and 2004 that money was available to upgrade the Terryland plant. People are getting sick because that work has not yet been done. The people of Galway have been told not to drink water from the public supply.

Mr. O’Dowd

If we are to believe the advertisements, the tourism trade in the area has been destroyed.

Mr. Grealish

I thank the Minister for coming to Galway last Friday to meet the officials and members of Galway City Council and Galway County Council and to outline what the Department can do to solve this major problem, which is having an impact on certain parts of County Galway. I stress that many areas within the county, including vast parts of Connemara, are not affected by the current difficulties. Outbreaks of cryptosporidium are not unique to Galway — there have been similar outbreaks in Sydney and Milwaukee. This problem is rampant throughout the United States, where levels of cryptosporidium, which is constantly in the water, have increased over recent months.

The Minister correctly stated that the Terryland plant supplies approximately 10 million gallons of water to Galway every day. The filtering system in the part of the plant that has been upgraded deals every day with 7 million gallons of water, which can therefore be consumed. The parasite that is causing these problems is not removed from 3 million gallons of unfiltered water, however. Galway County Council announced this morning, on foot of the Minister's visit and his decision to make funding available, that it will divert water from Limnagh to Galway city. The council hopes that the service, which will alleviate a great deal of the pressure being felt in Galway city, will be made available within six weeks.

It is important for the committee to send a message that Galway is still open for business. If one travels to a country such as Tunisia, one always sees notices telling one not to drink the water. People continue to go to such places on holidays even though they are told while on the aeroplane that there are problems with the local water supply. It is important for the committee and the Oireachtas as a whole to make it clear that everything is being done to ensure Galway stays open for business.

I agree with Deputies O'Dowd and Gilmore that serious questions need to be asked. The officials in Galway City Council need to explain why certain work was not done. The Lord Mayor of Galway who has been most vocal about this problem is the chairman of the council's strategic environment policy committee which is supposed to oversee the spending of the moneys in question. We need to get to the root of the problem and solve it in order that the people of Galway can enjoy clean water once more. Public health is the foremost consideration in this regard. When the Minister was in Galway last Friday, he announced that he was making an additional €20 million available to try to solve the problem.

I hope some good will come from this affair. When money is allocated to local authorities from now on, they should get the finger out and start working, rather than hiding behind the issue of who is to blame. If mistakes were made — if the officials in Galway City Council did not do their jobs — we should make sure it does not happen again. I thank the Minister for what he did on Friday. We need to reiterate the message that Galway is open for business.

Chairman

I ask the Minister to respond to those questions before we continue our consideration of the Estimates.

Mr. Roche

The local authorities which are responsible for delivering more than 900 water service schemes under the current programme have to take some responsibility when they succeed or fail in that regard. It might be cheaper, or more in line with certain political philosophies, to have no local government. I do not share the view that everything should be operated from the centre. Local authorities have to take responsibility, rather than dodge their duties, after capital has been allocated. By coincidence, new regulations on the monitoring of water supplies were made last month, as the Deputies are aware. The new regulations give specific additional powers to the Environmental Protection Agency. I agree with Deputy O'Dowd on the need to require that specific information on monitoring be made available to the public, including members of local authorities, from the outset.

Deputy Gilmore has asked whether a report was submitted to Galway City Council. I do not have access to the monthly reports of every council and do not wish to have such access. Councillors are elected at local level to do such work and most of them do it, to be fair. As I said in Galway last Friday, the most important thing is not to waste time finding out who said what to whom and when, but to get clean water into households. That is the only priority that interests me in the short and medium term.

Mr. O’Dowd

We also need to ensure it does not happen again in another local authority area.

Mr. Roche

Yes. I agree with the Deputy that lessons have to be learned from what has happened in Galway. To be fair to Galway City Council, the water quality issue on which it has focused in recent years has been the development of the Mutton Island plant. Galway Bay is a much better place since the council finished that project. One has to be balanced when commenting on these matters. The regulation of the supply of drinking water has been significantly changed since the beginning of last month, long before this issue arose and became a matter of public debate.

The Environmental Protection Agency's reports on the issues of risk assessment and the testing of the public supply, some of which could be published in a more timely manner, are very good. The agency produces a report that ranks the risk associated with each outlet or intake point. The most recent report I have seen which states that the Terryland plant carries a high risk should have caused alarm bells to ring.

We must concentrate on bringing the interim arrangements which were put in place on Friday on stream. I heard overnight somebody commenting from Galway that it would take until September. That is not acceptable. The solution offered on Friday was that potable water from Tuam could be in Galway within three weeks. I will not accept somebody going back on that solution and putting it back until September unless he or she can convince me that it is the only way forward.

This is very much a matter for the council. I have asked councils, when breakdowns occur in water supplies because of cryptosporidium or other reasons, to put in place measures to deal with the problem. In my town we have had water tankers delivering water to housing estates. I was told in Galway that they had looked at that, but it is time they stopped looking and started doing. It is not fair that families have to buy five-litre drums of water, particularly families on limited means. The best lesson that can be learned is that the matter needs to be treated with more urgency. It has been going on for the best part of a month and people are still confused as to what is happening.

I agree with Deputy Grealish. The first point is that it does not affect the whole of County Galway. People in Connemara are very upset because people are not differentiating geographically. Galway has a name for having this problem at the moment. It is in the interests of everybody to get on with the job of supplying clean water. The comments were associated with the behaviour of one or two councillors, not the totality of the council over a number of years. I do not know the questions that were asked at the meetings in Galway, nor would it be right for me to inquire. Local government, if it has suffered from anything, has suffered from too much central government interference and oversight. Local government must be just that and when the funds are provided it should be expected to work to use those funds. I made the presumption going to Galway that all councillors would have read their briefs. One of the lessons from all of this is that when the water investment programme 2007 is published, it will be put into the hands of every councillor, with a note stating, "Please read this — it is important to your constituents".

The last survey on motor tax compliance was in 2001 and it estimated a persistent evasion level of 4.6%. We need a new survey to take this further.

Mr. O’Dowd

There are different figures in that survey. People whose tax was less than a year out of date were not counted. I am not quite sure how the statistic of 4.6% was arrived at. There is another statistic which indicates that one in ten vehicles did not have a current motor tax certificate.

Mr. Roche

We have taken measures since and we are confident that there is a significant improvement. I have already mentioned — I think in reply to a parliamentary question from Deputy O'Dowd — that the way ahead is to have the same continuous requirement as exists elsewhere.

Mr. O’Dowd

Surveys in the North of Ireland indicate a figure of around 10%, similar to the figure here.

Mr. Roche

I remember the figure the Deputy mentions. I will outline some of the measures that have been taken. There has been a reduction in the periods of grace. In the past a period up to a month after the expiry of a tax disc was tolerated. People used to claim the new disc was in the post. The Department now issues advance notice and final reminders. The Garda is also less benevolent than previously. The vehicle registration unit in Shannon is operating to identify continuous gappers — people whose car is off the road for three months and who do not register it for the fourth month. Effectively, they get five months tax free. They are now being followed up by the Garda. Reminder notices are being issued to owners of new vehicles which remain untaxed for a period after their registration.

This is one of the famous in-built gaps. People bought a new car at the end of November but did not register it until January for a variety of reasons. The format has changed in respect of the non-use declaration in support of a period in which motor tax is not being paid to include a reason for non-use. The local tax office will have discretion to seek further evidence from the vehicle owner to support the non-use statement. This never applied previously.

These constitute four specific measures, in addition to less benevolence on the part of the Garda.

Mr. O’Dowd

I refer to uncollected revenue and, depending on the statistics one uses, the estimate of 4.6%. Last year approximately 2 million vehicles were registered. What is the estimated loss of revenue to the Department for the past year?

Mr. Roche

My understanding of the Deputy's question is that were the figure of 4.6% to be continuous, this would be significant. However, the gaps are being reduced as a result of the other measures mentioned.

Mr. O’Dowd

I simply seek the figures.

Mr. Roche

I will revert to the Deputy in this regard. As I do not have a specific figure to hand, there is no point in delaying the meeting.

Mr. O’Dowd

Will the figures be available tomorrow?

Mr. Roche

I will revert to the Deputy as soon as possible.

Mr. N. Ahern

Deputy O'Dowd asked a question on the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. By the end of last year approximately 2,800 units had been transferred to the RAS. In addition, approximately 2,300 eligible persons in receipt of rent allowance were catered for with local authority accommodation. Of those who had been included in the original estimate of persons in receipt of rent allowance for more than 18 months, approximately 5,000 were looked after. The target is approximately 5,000 per annum.

Mr. O’Dowd

Of the money available, how much remains unspent? I understand the sum of €30 million was available last year.

Mr. N. Ahern

No, I understand €19 million was available last year, of which only €6.2 million was used.

Mr. O’Dowd

That constitutes a massive underspend.

Mr. N. Ahern

The Estimate for this year is €25 million. As the Deputy is aware, there were many teething problems. However, many local authorities are becoming involved to a greater extent. In the early days much of the accommodation was substandard and simply unfit to be taken over. Some landlords——

Mr. O’Dowd

What are the Minister of State's end of year projections?

Mr. N. Ahern

Another 5,000 at best. However, this may be somewhat ambitious.

Mr. O’Dowd

I refer to the money allocated. Last year €19 million was allocated but only €6 million was spent.

Mr. N. Ahern

Yes.

Mr. O’Dowd

That constitutes approximately one third.

Mr. N. Ahern

The Estimate allocated—

Mr. O’Dowd

Two thirds of the money allocated last year was not spent.

Mr. N. Ahern

Yes. The Estimate for this year is €25 million.

Mr. O’Dowd

My main problem with the scheme is that it is highly attractive for those who need accommodation immediately, many of whom live in appalling, disgraceful and shameful apartments and flats. However, if the Department will not allow councils to spend the available money, such persons will be in a bad way.

Mr. N. Ahern

There has been no refusal to allow councils to spend the money.

Mr. O’Dowd

However, expenditure caps are being placed on them.

Mr. N. Ahern

The caps are placed by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, not by this Department. However, this is taxpayer's money and one cannot simply give landlords what they seek.

Mr. O’Dowd

Of course not.

Mr. N. Ahern

Some consider that rent allowance is having too great an effect on the overall private rental market because approximately 40% of units in that market are rent allowance assisted. One cannot simply give the asking price to a landlord.

Mr. O’Dowd

My point is that the local authorities conduct the negotiations rather than either the Department or the individual who seeks the accommodation. The councils have informed me that they want more people to take up the RAS rent allowance scheme. Although the money has been allocated, they are unable to access it because the Department has stated there is a ceiling on what they can pay.

Mr. N. Ahern

As I stated, one cannot simply give landlords what they want. This battle is ongoing. What we give is based on——

Mr. O’Dowd

I have been informed by councils that this issue pertains to collective knowledge. It is not simply a question of me fighting with Johnny Murphy or whoever. The market value in the community for rented accommodation is whatever it is. If the Department does not recognise this, councils will be unable to give sufficient money to the applicant to access such accommodation.

Mr. N. Ahern

I have just stated that we cannot—

Mr. O’Dowd

I refer to the average in this regard.

Mr. N. Ahern

— give landlords what they seek.

Mr. O’Dowd

I am not saying the Department should do so.

Mr. N. Ahern

The State spends approximately €350 million per year on rent allowance, which is an ongoing battle.

Mr. O’Dowd

I have no problem with that.

Mr. N. Ahern

The figures in question are adjusted every year. However, councils are becoming more proactive in this regard.

Mr. O’Dowd

No, they are not.

Mr. N. Ahern

I agree with Deputy O'Dowd that this constitutes a good option. A number of clients, particularly those who have been in receipt of rent allowance and who wish to re-enter employment wish to be assessed and to avail of the scheme.

Mr. O’Dowd

The number of people who wish to take up the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, is growing continually in my community, particularly when they are informed of the existence of a special rental allowance section based in the local authority. However, when I make queries on the RAS for particular families, I am informed that while they are on the list, there is nothing for them despite the existence of unrented property of which they could avail. I acknowledge the Minister of State is not Santa Claus and no one suggests he should be. However, he must recognise the presence of market pressures and forces within some communities in close proximity to Dublin in which people are unable to secure decent accommodation. A new mechanism is required whereby the Department can intervene in a more successful fashion with the moneys available to it that it is not spending at present.

Mr. N. Ahern

In addition to transferring many of the clients to whom the Deputy refers and ascertaining whether their landlords will do business, we are also procuring some other accommodation. There is talk of taking over 1,000 newly-built or existing separate units that are not in the market at present.

Mr. O’Dowd

The Minister of State proposes to take X number of houses from a development for this purpose.

Mr. N. Ahern

Such units could be newly built or could be houses or units in existing apartment blocks.

Mr. O’Dowd

The point I am trying to make, which probably should be directed to the Minister of State's officials——

Mr. N. Ahern

As for the price limit, the Department cannot simply give builders or landlords what they seek.

Mr. O’Dowd

I will not labour the point. I wish to make it clear that I completely agree with the Minister of State in this regard. However, when local authorities that embrace the scheme fully want to work it and have landlords who wish to operate within it assert that it is insufficient, the problem is not being resolved.

Mr. Gilmore

As time is moving on I will try to combine my comments on the Estimates with a couple of questions. I welcome the new annual output statement, which is extremely helpful in respect of the format of the Estimates. It is a pity that members did not have longer to deal with it. A feature of the Minister's opening statement that struck me was the absence of a reference to decentralisation. Under the plan announced by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, this Department should be located in Wexford by now. While I would be glad to hear the Department is to remain in Dublin, what is the present status of the decentralisation proposals? Is Wexford dead as a location for the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? I was curious about the absence of references to it in the opening statement.

The annual output statement is somewhat like an end of term report for the Government and, as such, much of it is delusory. When one considers the aggregate indicators, members are informed of progress towards ensuring that Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions will be met. However, Ireland is at twice the limit, which does not constitute "progress towards". The statement also refers to the expansion and improvement of national water and waste water facilities. This is somewhat unfortunate, given the problem that has arisen in Galway.

Reference is also made to progress towards a fully integrated waste management structure. The Government has put a high premium on incineration which constitutes one of the waste management strategy's cornerstones. However, this statement comes a couple of days after one of the principal operators has revealed either that it intends to pull out or is trying to twist the Minister's arm to increase the charges and levies for landfill.

On the built environment, the document contains some great statements regarding the planning system. I would be happy to run them by some of my constituents who have an entirely different take on what is happening in respect of planning, as is the case in many other locations. Reference is made to increased protection of the heritage by a Government which is running a motorway through Tara. Similarly, statements regarding improvement on energy efficiency come from a Government which has delayed implementing the building energy regulations and the energy labelling of buildings. The references to local government are great coming from a Minister who, whenever anything goes wrong, tries to find a clerical officer somewhere in a local authority to clip across the ear.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy cannot have it both ways.

Mr. Gilmore

He now tells members the aggregate indicator for his time in office is effective and efficient performance of the local government sector in the delivery of its services.

As for housing, when the Minister's party took office ten years ago, local authority housing lists contained 26,000 approved applicants. Even after changing the counting methodology, the figure stands at 43,000. Moreover, an additional 60,000 people who have a defined and recognised housing need are in receipt of rent allowance. It is hard to ascertain the true figure in this regard. As for delivery, the only items of which the Government took delivery were voting machines that cannot be used and for which we are still paying a price.

I have a number of specific questions arising from some of the document's contents in which I am interested. The performance indicators in respect of water schemes refer to the number of water and wastewater infrastructure schemes to be started and completed in 2007. The output target for the number to be started is 80, while the target for the number to be completed is 40. This suggests the Department operates a monitoring system for water schemes. I wish to concentrate on this subject. Can the Minister describe the monitoring system to members? If he can inform them of the number of schemes to be started or completed, presumably there is some sort of checklist for schemes. How does it operate?

One of the document's performance indicators is "[to] continue to review performance in the local government sector". As I noted previously, some years ago the Minister or his predecessor announced a set of service indicators to be operated within this sector. My recollection is that the service indicators in question would apply to each division or department of a local authority. My understanding was that such service indicators would form the basis on which bonus payments were to be made to senior managerial staff in local authorities. Can the Minister tell members how many, if any, managerial staff in local authorities were not paid a bonus payment arising from such service indicators since their introduction?

The document states 9,000 social housing units are to be commenced or acquired this year. How many such units will be completed or acquired?

The French electoral authorities intend to use Nedap voting machines for the French presidential election. Can the Minister offload the surplus Nedap voting machines in storage somewhere to the French authorities? This seems to be an ideal opportunity to solve an embarrassing problem for him and his predecessors.

Mr. Roche

My opening comments were only a summary of the contents of the document circulated to members. The issue of decentralisation is dealt with therein. I accept one does not always have time to read everything.

Mr. Gilmore

To which document does the Minister refer?

Mr. Roche

The blue document.

On decentralisation, the Deputy inquired whether the Wexford project was dead; it is not. The site has been acquired and is located opposite the racetrack adjacent to the hospital on the outskirts of Wexford town. A planning permission application was lodged in February for the headquarters and the first transfer of advance staff to Wexford will take place in June. The Department has acquired office space in Wexford to which the 40 advance staff will move. A further 120 are ready to participate in the next move to Wexford. I am pleased that this process is far advanced. While I am unsure when the sod-turning ceremony will take place, if I perform it — I hope I will — I will invite the Deputy to ensure his presence. His colleague, Deputy Howlin, is monitoring this process closely and it is doing well.

I will leave the issue of housing statistics to the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern.

Mr. Gilmore

How much did the site cost?

Mr. Roche

It is a Wexford Town Council site and the cost is under negotiation. The council is engaging in the construction of a new building on the same campus.

Mr. Gilmore

As it is already publicy owned, no expenditure has arisen.

Mr. Roche

Obviously, a compensation package must be worked out.

Mr. Gilmore

Does it remain at the planning application stage?

Mr. Roche

Yes. The planning application was lodged on 21 February.

Mr. Gilmore

If there is no building, where will the 40 staff go?

Mr. Roche

I have mentioned to the Deputy that the Department has acquired premises for them which are located on the outskirts of the town at Ardcavan.

Mr. Gilmore

How much did they cost?

Mr. Roche

It is rented accommodation and a matter for the Office of Public Works. I can obtain the figure for the Deputy. The staff have indicated their desire to go to Wexford. As I noted, 120 are involved and they are anxious to start because of a variety of domestic concerns.

Mr. Gilmore

What will the staff do in Wexford? What units are moving there?

Mr. Roche

A variety of sectional work areas will be moved immediately.

Mr. Gilmore

What work areas are moving to Wexford in the first wave?

Mr. Roche

Wexford will be the location of the Department's new headquarters.

Mr. Gilmore

What staff——

Mr. Roche

Staff from all sections in the Department will move to Wexford.

Mr. Gilmore

The Department has a site for which it does not yet have planning permission.

Mr. Roche

Yes. I will provide the Deputy with details of the work to be performed by the 40 staff.

Mr. Gilmore

Is it a particular——

Mr. Roche

The staff are involved in a range of activities across the Department.

Mr. Gilmore

A particular division will not be moved.

Mr. Roche

No. I understand the Deputy's point. This move will involve elements from different sections rather than an individual section in its totality. As the headquarters function is being transferred to Wexford, the advance staff will carry out some elements of the work of each individual area. I will forward a list to the Deputy in this regard.

Mr. Gilmore

How will that work?

Mr. Roche

With modern communications, one does not need to be in the room next door to somebody to work with him or her. We have staff in Ballina and four or five other locations.

Mr. Gilmore

Yes, but these concern particular divisions or functions. What functions will be covered?

Mr. Roche

The headquarters functions. If the Deputy is interested in having a list of what each individual——

Mr. Gilmore

I am not interested in what each individual is doing, but in the nature of their work.

Mr. Roche

There will be staff from the housing and environment sections, among others. There will be nobody from the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Staff from the urban renewal section will be included, as will staff from part of the corporate development section.

Mr. Gilmore

A bit of everything.

Mr. Roche

Advance staff from each of the sections will go to the new location first. There will not be staff from all sections because, as the Deputy knows, some functions are performed in Ballina and Shannon. Some of the headquarters staff under the various headings I have listed will move to Wexford and these will very much comprise the staff of the advance office. Any form of decentralisation or relocation involves moving an advance team to establish the basic working relationships. More staff are moved as space becomes available. Far from being off the map, as the Deputy has suggested, Wexford is very much on it.

The Deputy misunderstands the indicators. They arise from the need to serve the customer better and are focused on service provided for customers by local authorities. They are not part of the bonus scheme for local authorities, which operated in local government long before the service indicators were introduced. Shortly after I entered the Department in 2004, the first report on the indicators was published. The indicators arise under 42 headings and I indicated when I entered office that I would not change them for a number of years. If they were changed every year, they would be of no use whatsoever in obtaining time series data on performance.

All aspects of local authority functions are covered, including the number of hours for which libraries open and the manner in which contact with the public is handled. I asked the local government customer service group which drew up the present set of indicators to review them. This review involved consultation with a range of stakeholders, including IBEC, the chambers of commerce and the Combat Poverty Agency.

The service indicators need to be expanded but they are not related to the bonus scheme.

Mr. Gilmore

I thank the Minister for that information. Has a bonus ever been withheld and, if so, when was the last time?

Mr. Roche

An annual review or report is produced on bonuses. I am not sure whether there has ever been a nil award. The bonus scheme is separate from the service indicator scheme.

Mr. Gilmore

Is it correct that a bonus has never been withheld?

Mr. Roche

Under the pay agreements, there is a committee for performance awards. It is in this context that bonus schemes arise in local government. An annual report, at an aggregate level, is produced on bonuses. As far as I recall, it does not concern itself with individual local authorities because there have been queries about recipients in individual local authorities. It is an aggregate report, just like that on the Civil Service.

Mr. Gilmore

Is the Minister telling me a bonus has never been withheld?

Mr. Roche

There may be circumstances in which individuals would not go forward for bonuses. A wide range of bonuses are paid and they are not all paid at the same level. The range is approximately from 6% to 15%.

Mr. Gilmore

That is very satisfactory.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy made a point about the—

Mr. Gilmore

I do not know why the Minister is always criticising local authorities the way he does, given what he has just told us. To be fair, one cannot have it both ways. Every time something goes wrong — the water crisis in Galway is another example — the first thing the Minister does is find some unfortunate official in a local authority to clatter around the head.

Mr. Roche

That is simply not true.

Mr. Gilmore

I make this point particularly in light of what the Minister just stated about the performance of local authority managers. I was glad to hear this statement which has confirmed what I understood to be the case. The Minister should take responsibility for his own work and duty of care and stop laying blame every time something goes wrong.

Mr. Roche

When a local authority fails to produce the number of houses sanctioned, as has been the case for a number of years in respect of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, it is right and proper to draw this to the attention of the public and the Deputy.

Mr. Gilmore

Absolutely.

Mr. Roche

I have done that but it is not the equivalent of giving a smack on the head to some clerical officer. The reality is that when the local authority fails to produce 100% of the houses sanctioned and fails even to produce 70% of them over a ten year period, some constituents suffer. This has affected some of the Deputy's constituents and some of mine. It is right and proper to drive performance but this is not the same as picking out some clerical officer and giving him or her a smack over the head.

I doubt that the 90,000 people inconvenienced and, in some cases, ill owing to what is happening in Galway would agree with the Deputy's view that everything is exemplary. I do not share that view either.

On performance, an issued raised by the Deputy, not by me, it is interesting to note that malperformance in councils in recent years has been significantly related to changes in the composition of the groups which control the councils.

Mr. Gilmore

As I suspected, this is a political matter.

Mr. Roche

We can all play politics.

Mr. Gilmore

The Minister went to Galway, therefore, not so much out of concern for the people made ill by drinking water but to deliver a political thump. Is that not correct?

Mr. Roche

No.

Mr. Gilmore

It was. It was a clever exercise in pre-election blame-laying and the Minister is very good at it — fair dues to him.

Mr. Roche

I thank the Deputy for giving me credit for something I did not even try to do. I have recently been critical of a number of councils, rightly so. A council which is not performing in the delivery of houses—

Mr. Gilmore

The Minister has remedies available to him that he does not exercise.

Chairman

Please allow the Minister to finish.

Mr. Roche

It is right and proper that the public should know and it is bizarre that a Member of the Oireachtas should suggest we hide the facts from it.

Two councils made development plans recently over which nobody could rightly stand. In such cases it is right and proper that they be struck down as the law provides. If the Deputy were sitting in my seat, I would expect him to perform in the same way, irrespective of who controlled the councils.

Since the Deputy is going down the political route, he should consider who was running the councils in the recent cases of substantial malperformance. This is a fair and reasonable point to make.

Mr. Gilmore

The point the Minister is making is a political one. A Minister who has presided over a regime under which only 1% of the housing delivered has been social and affordable, rather than the 20% sanctioned, is in no position to lecture anybody on the matter. When he took office, there were 26,000 applicants on local authority housing lists. Now there are 43,000. That is after miscounting.

Mr. Roche

If we are making political points—

Chairman

Allow Deputy Gilmore to finish.

Mr. Gilmore

If the Minister wants to talk about the performance of individual local authorities, I will be quite happy to do so, and I will also be happy to talk at a micro-level about who is responsible, who voted for what, who approved various housing schemes and who used up land, etc. However, my basic point is that every time something went wrong since the Minister entered office, he found a local authority to blame. It is manifestly clear from his statements at this committee that it is not a question of good administration of local government but of making a political statement and laying blame on someone else. We can have this kind of argument if the Minister wants, but he should not suggest some local authorities are not performing while clapping himself on the back at an Estimates meeting and telling us that local government is efficient and effective. He cannot have it both ways.

Mr. Roche

The reality is that political office carries certain responsibilities, be it at local or national level. Deputy Gilmore cannot have it both ways. He cannot duck and dodge. Many of the malfunctioning councils happen to be controlled by certain groups, including the Deputy's own, at council level.

On overall council performance, many councils are performing superbly because their councillors and staff work very hard. One problem is that superb performance is not universal across local authorities and another is that some local authorities underperform not because of the failure of council staff but largely because of the failure of councillors to pull together. I would not exonerate politicians from any side of the House in this regard. The reality is that the performance of a number of councils is sub-optimal, to put in mildly, while the performance of others is superb. This is a reality and it is delusional for Deputy Gilmore to suggest——

Mr. Gilmore

I am not suffering from a delusion at all. The Estimate is the delusion.

Mr. Roche

——that one should simply dodge, duck and ignore the reality.

Mr. Gilmore

I am not ducking from anything. I am trying to obtain some answers from the Minister but not getting them.

Chairman

Will the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, respond to the question on housing statistics?

Mr. N. Ahern

The figure of 9,000 is one third of the commitment outlined in Towards 2016. We committed to 27,000 starts in the three-year period. There has been a great expansion in the programme this year and last year and, between all the measures, there will be more than 7,000 completions. The needs of approximately 13,000 households will be met in total.

On the point about work in progress, an examination of completions in recent years will reveal that the provisional figure for the end of last year indicates that work on approximately 9,000 local authority houses is in progress. This figure seems to be increasing all the time, perhaps because builders are taking on too many contracts. There is a huge stock of houses classified as "work in progress" and this is why there might often be a gap between starts and completions.

Mr. Gilmore

What does the Minister of State expect the completion figure to be?

Mr. N. Ahern

I expect approximately 7,000 this year across all the social housing categories.

Mr. Gilmore

On the question of water schemes, I asked the Minister about the system for monitoring progress on water schemes that have not been started. Are there other water schemes, such as that in Galway, in respect of which funding has been made available but not yet drawn down?

Mr. Roche

There are up to 900 schemes and they are not all at the same stage. Some are at the very early stages, while others are under construction.

Mr. Gilmore

To take the Galway example——

Mr. Roche

I am answering the Deputy's question.

Mr. Gilmore

I would prefer if the Minister just answered my questions.

Mr. Roche

That is what I am trying to do.

Mr. Gilmore

How many of the water schemes are at the same stage as that in Galway?

Mr. Roche

We will provide the Deputy with a list outlining the stages of progress of the 900 schemes.

Mr. Gilmore

I thank the Minister.

Mr. Roche

It is obviously impossible to provide that much detail.

On monitoring, the schemes are cleared at a number of specific stages. A scheme with a value under €5 million, for example, is cleared at two stages by the Department. It receives the preliminary go-ahead and is then subject to final clearance. It is left up to the local authority.

There are four separate stages for schemes valued over €5 million. In this regard contracts and other matters must be cleared. A new set of streamlined procedures has been introduced in the past two years since I became Minister. Previously there were too many stages and they were certainly causing many difficulties in respect of local authorities. Local authorities were literally able to come back three or four times.

We have considered how to cut red tape from the system. We attend steering group meetings on a quarterly basis, at which council officials and departmental officials discuss problems either group may have. If there is a problem, it should be picked up at these meetings. We have just introduced a new Internet-based system to track schemes. It is a project control system and offers on-line information at all times on the progress of each scheme. There is a self-reporting element which allows for continuous monitoring. Deputy Gilmore is right that until a scheme comes into question, the monitoring process does not apply.

In summary, the monitoring system has changed significantly in recent times. The changes were made with a view to removing some of the red tape and bureaucracy. A small scheme valued under €2 million now has two stages as opposed to four; the largest schemes have four. A steering group meets on a quarterly basis and involves local authority personnel and the inspectorate from the Department. An Internet-based control system is just coming into operation to track progress. Owing to the sheer number of schemes, one needs to be able to track the progress of each.

Mr. Gilmore

Did the monitoring group never spot the problem in Galway?

Mr. Roche

As far as I know, the local authority in Galway never raised the issue, but I can check for the Deputy. There were recent discussions with the authority on the need for additional staff but I am not sure if the scheme was mentioned. I would have to check this also.

Chairman

Are there further questions on subheads A to G, inclusive?

Mr. Roche

When the monitoring group meets, it is the local authority which normally raises any problems it may have. Local authorities are not asked why they are having problems with certain matters because the idea is that one works on an exception basis. If a local authority is having difficulty, it mentions it at the meeting.

Chairman

That concludes the committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates for Vote 25 — Environment, Heritage and Local Government — for the year ending 31 December 2007. I thank the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, the Ministers of State at the Department, Deputies Noel Ahern and Batt O'Keeffe, as well as their officials, for attending today's meeting.

Mr. Roche

I thank members for their comments about the annual output statement. This is the first opportunity we have had to consider it. If there are any specifics that need to be included to improve the annual output statement, we would all benefit. I will respond to members in as much detail as possible on all the schemes in the water services. I will also supply Deputy O'Dowd with specific replies on the tracking system in motor vehicle registration.