SELECT COMMITTEE ON EUROPE DAY debate -
Monday, 9 May 2011

The European Union in 2020: Discussion with Members of the European Parliament

Chairman

Good afternoon everybody and welcome to this special meeting of the Select Committee on Europe Day in the Dáil Chamber. I congratulate the Minister of State for European Affairs, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, on her appointment as Minister of State and particularly for facilitating Europe Day this day at such short notice.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for making the Dáil Chamber available to the select committee. It is crucial that EU matters are taken from the committee rooms of the basement of LH 2000 and debated on the floor of the Dáil on a regular basis.

I compliment the Commissioner, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, for a fine address to the Dáil and for outlining the relevance and importance of her research, innovation and science portfolio towards achieving the goals of EU 2020.

I thank all the MEPs and TDs who have made a special effort to be here today to participate in the first Europe Day of the current Government.

I welcome everybody in the Gallery and also those who are looking in or listening to the proceedings from outside the Chamber.

The 9 May 1950 marked the origin of what is now the European Union, an economic and political union consisting of 500 million people in 27 member states. It was a union born from disunion and devastation. It was the determination of the founding fathers, Schumann and Monnet, to harness and channel the key industries of two world wars, coal and steel, to create peace, prosperity and solidarity for European states after the worst destruction of lives and property the world had ever experienced. It is fitting, therefore, that this important occasion be marked by our national Parliament annually.

The European Union is the largest economy in the world. It represents 60% of Ireland's exports and imports and is vital to our national economy. The current financial crisis means that now more than ever the future of our country and that of the 27 member states are fundamentally interlinked.

The programme for Government 2011 makes provision for the annual Europe Day to be the focus of a parliamentary debate to review national progress in implementing the European Union's current programme and in identifying the major issues of concern to Ireland for future programmes.

The theme of today's meeting is very much about looking forward to what Europe, and Ireland's role within Europe, will look like in 2020, including the role of the Oireachtas.

Where do we want to be in 2020 as Europeans, as Irish citizens and as Members of the Oireachtas? The European Union aims to achieve smart, sustainable and inclusive growth by 2020 and the Europe 2020 strategy seeks to deliver high levels of employment, productivity and social cohesion. Its five headline targets cover employment, research and development, climate change, education and poverty. The Commissioner, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, has already outlined to the Dáil the central role of research and innovation in achieving these goals. The emphasis on a smart economy across Europe mirrors the enduring strengths of our own small, open market economy of highly skilled workers. The kinds of jobs and investment created by Google, Intel and the pharmaceutical sector are examples of exactly the kinds of success stories that the EU as a whole aims to provide. Ireland's national reform programme under Europe 2020 sets national targets under each of these headlines.

In the wake of the Lisbon treaty a joint Sub-Committee on the Review of the Role of the Oireachtas in European Affairs examined how best the Oireachtas could maximise and implement its role and I was delighted to have been a member of that committee. The sub-committee produced a report and a number of recommendations on a cross-party basis, many of which have been included in the programme for Government. They focus on engaging with the European Union institutions, on improving accountability to the Oireachtas and on communicating Europe to our citizens. The Government is committed to implementing these recommendations as quickly as possible.

Ensuring compliance with the principle of subsidiarity forms a major plank of the future role of the Oireachtas in EU affairs. Subsidiarity is a fundamental principle of European law and requires that action should be taken at the nearest possible level to the citizen, be it at international, national or local level. The Lisbon treaty has introduced a crucial role for national parliaments. National parliaments are now the official EU watchdogs of new policy proposals emanating from the Commission to ensure that they do not intrude into matters that can best be addressed by the member states themselves.

Already the Dáil has established a select committee under Standing Order 103 specifically for the purpose of debating whether a Commission proposal to form an EU-wide common consolidated corporate tax base, CCTB, breaches the principle of subsidiarity. The outcome of this committee's deliberations may well have a significant impact on the future of Ireland's special corporation tax rate. The speedy establishment of this committee demonstrates the commitment of the new Dáil to engage fully with the EU institutions in the interests of the Irish people.

When speaking of fundamental principles it is worth recalling that the EU treaties acknowledge the fundamental values on which the EU project is based, namely, lasting peace, unity, equality, freedom, security and solidarity between members states and their peoples and respect for the rule of international law. These are values the world needs equally today in 2011 as on 9 May 1950.

We will now move on to hear contributions from Members of the European Parliament. There are ten Members of the European Parliament present and I will ask them to speak for three minutes each, beginning with the leaders of the groups. All members will have three minutes each and the first speaker is Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP, a member of the Fine Gael Party and a member of the EPP.

Mr. Jim Higgins, MEP

On a point of order, in view of the time constraints, will the Chairman indicate after two and a half minutes that a speaker has only a half minute remaining?

Chairman

I was going to indicate the time after two minutes.

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

Today let us remind ourselves that the European Union is about peace and stability on the Continent following the mayhem of the first part of the 20th century when 60 million Europeans died. That is what the project is about - peace and stability. Let us review our national progress and then some ideas.

Some people say we lost our sovereignty the day we joined the European Union but I say we were not truly sovereign until we joined the European Union. Until then the British Chancellor of the Exchequer set our interest rates and the value of our currency. Our biggest export was not cheap agricultural product but our people, 800,000 of whom still live in Britain today. Today, we have a diversified economy with a financial services sector, a pharmaceutical sector, an information technology sector and a burgeoning food sector. When I first became a Deputy in 1981, I had a petition signed by 1,000 people in Crumlin alone who were waiting for telephones. The only half-decent road in the country was the dual carriageway from Newlands Cross to Naas. EU infrastructural investment has changed all that.

Ireland now has one EU Commissioner, as does Germany, and one Minister present at the Council of Ministers, just like France. The Secretary General of the Commission is Irish, as was her predecessor. The new chief operating officer of the European Foreign Policy Unit is Irish. We have the Presidency of the European Union on a rotating basis on equal terms with other countries, large and small. We have never had such a powerful role in any international body.

The European Union is not perfect but it is certainly good for Ireland. I constantly read anti-EU headlines in the media, yet the Commission actually supports a reduction in the interest rate given to Ireland, as does the European Central Bank. They charge us 1.25% interest on the €130 to €160 billion which they currently provide in liquidity funds for our banks. I would like to see some of that provided on a longer, or at least a medium-term basis, rather than turned over every 14 days. I am very hopeful this will be rectified.

Last month at a meeting of the European Parliament's Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee, I asked the President of the European Central Bank, Mr. Jean-Claude Trichet, to consider converting funds to a shareholding. He did not comment, an interesting response in itself. My subsequent question to Mr. Trichet was if he expected Ireland could both address the public finances and recapitalise the banks. He replied his working assumption was that we could. The deal we need is that the European Central Bank recapitalises the banks and the State addresses the public finances. In time, we would both get a dividend.

The interest rate given to us on the EFSF, European Financial Stability Funds, will be reduced while there will be no change in our corporation tax rate. The EU has been a great opportunity for Ireland but we did not always make most of that opportunity. When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, per capita income was $7,023; by 2010 it was $38,816.

Many questions are being asked of the European Union. It is time the United States Department of the Treasury was also asked questions, particularly before the US President, Mr. Obama, comes to visit Ireland. Is it true the Secretary of the Treasury vetoed International Monetary Fund proposals to give a €20 billion haircut to unguaranteed bonds? If so, we are due an explanation. We need to be skilful in our approach to the European Union, not dropping nuclear bombs as some of our more reckless commentators have suggested.

Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

The European Union, I regret, is in trouble. Jürgen Habermas is correct that some of the decisions being made, and more particularly the manner in which they are made, are threatening a creeping death of the European Union, sinking nearly 50 years of one of the most important political, economic and social innovations in Europe's history. A 2010 European Parliament survey, carried out by Eurobarometer, on attitudes to the handling of the financial crisis by Europe shows we are losing the confidence of the people across Europe, including in Ireland.

How do we address the economic and social crisis, as well as the crisis in confidence, being experienced across Europe? We must do it first by having a robust debate about why we need the European Union both for large and small states. We must make it clear and insist that European decisions are made by and with us through our full participation at local, national and European levels through the European Parliament, the Commission and Council.

Europe, as a free trade area, will never win the loyalty of its citizens. Europe as a social market economy, and as a fair, open and cultural society, will retain the confidence of its citizens, even when we disagree with particular decisions. What Europe and the Oireachtas need to promote is a new social strategy for Europe with the development of social, cultural and political policies as integral to each other, not as add-ons for the Single Market. The majority of Europeans want the tackling of poverty and social exclusion to be Europe's priority, as per the Eurobarometer poll from last year.

The Europe 2020 strategy must have the full attention of all Oireachtas parties and Members. There needs to be an analysis of the impact of the economic crisis, particularly on women with children and elderly women. At 14%, Ireland has the highest level of jobless households in the European Union. Some 6% of these are in severe material deprivation. Up to 16% of the population, with 20% of our children, is at risk of poverty. Europe has a role to play in addressing these problems. The European Parliament must address these in tandem with national parliaments. I urge the Oireachtas to engage with the implementation of the Europe 2020 strategy.

Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP

Is cúis mhór áthais dom bheith sa Dáil inniu le haghaidh Lá na hEorpa. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl duit, a Chathaoirligh, agus don Cheann Comhairle as ucht cuireadh a thabhairt dom ar an lá stairiúil seo. Ó thaobh na Gaeilge de, is teanga oibre oifigiúil de chuid an Aontais Eorpaigh í. Bíonn an Ghaeilge in úsáid go rialta sa Pharlaimint agam agus ag mo chomhghleacaithe atá anseo.

Under the provisions of the agreement between the Government, the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, it is necessary to adhere to the deficit target contained in the Stability and Growth Pact. It is ironic, however, that when the pact's rules were first breached in 2002 by two member states, France and Germany, if Europe were as vigilant then as it is today, we all might not be in this current crisis. Europe must take some of the blame for it.

As the Taoiseach, the Commissioner and others have stated, corporation tax rates are a matter for each member state, as enshrined in the Lisbon treaty. Accordingly, the question of corporate tax and interest rates should be decoupled. Irish MEPS have regular access to the Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner, Mr. Olli Rehn. On umpteen times, we have impressed on him the necessity to reduce the interest rates charged for Ireland's bailout not by a token 1% but a more realistic figure. In the Icesave repayment plan, the Icelandic people rejected a 3% interest payment to the UK and 3.3% to the Netherlands. We must get real about our interest charges and reduce them to low levels.

The peripheral regions of the Union are suffering serious problems. I take no sense of pride that other member states find themselves in such a situation. The 2014-2020 budgetary negotiations between the European Parliament, Commission and the Council are critical to Irish farmers. If there is a contracting budget, we must ensure Irish farmers continue to receive the €1.7 billion available through the Common Agricultural Policy. It is a matter of the Minister working with MEPs to ensure the industry is protected.

The Taoiseach and the Commissioner for Research, Innovation and Science, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, referred to what Ireland has given to Europe. I acknowledge since 1973 there have been transfers of €60 billion from Europe to Ireland, yet fishing is the one industry that has paid too great a price for our Union membership. Along with the Minister for Agriculture, Marine and Food, Deputy Coveney, we can rectify the sharing of our fishing grounds with other countries in the review of the Common Fisheries Policy.

Donegal knows only too well of the importance of Europe and the benefits of the PEACE programme. We have benefited greatly from the removal of the economic border and we are extremely grateful for that.

Is deis iontach í seo, cé go bhfuil an t-am teoranta. Tá súil agam go mbeidh muid ábalta leanúint ar aghaidh le díospóireachtaí mar seo anseo sa Dáil agus sna coistí.

Ms Marian Harkin, MEP

Today we need to look at our relationship with Europe but we also need to re-evaluate, reappraise and, where necessary, readjust it. The long honeymoon is over and we are well into the seven-year itch. It is time to look more closely at our relationship. I am one of those Independents who supported the Nice and Lisbon treaties but I now believe circumstances have changed beyond recognition and that requires us, as the Taoiseach said, not just to take stock but to be proactive and courageous in exploring the limits of our relationship.

Last September, before it became fashionable or mainstream, I challenged Commissioner Barnier on the floor of the European Parliament about the mindless austerity being imposed on Ireland and the damage that would be done to our small, open economy. This led to the ESRI predicting a decade of lost growth for Ireland. I also challenged Commissioner Rehn in November when he spoke about the EU's strategy on growth and jobs. I asked how we could have jobs in Ireland in the current circumstances with crippling bank debt and austerity measures that condemn us to a scenario of no growth. Our GNP growth over the past four years has been less than zero.

Morgan Kelly's name is on everybody's lips and while we need to listen to him, a man we also need to listen to is George Osborne who said yesterday that he could not see the UK writing further cheques for Greece or Portugal, although he said Ireland was a special case. He said the bailout was designed in order that the countries affected could return to the bond markets by 2012 but that will not happen for Greece, Portugal or Ireland. George Osborne recognises that and, privately, on the corridors of Brussels, people recognise it. We need to bring that debate out into the open and deal with it.

Professor Patrick Honohan stated yesterday, "This is not a final solution...it is a holding operation". The effect of what is happening, however, is not neutral. This holding operation will determine the shape of the solution but it also has our economy on the floor and it presides over a usurious interest rate and a debt to GDP ratio that is ballooning out of control. I wish the Government parties well and I have no doubt they approached the EU with determination but the red herrings of corporation tax and the CCCTB were quickly used to derail their efforts.

There has been up to now no real political commitment to deal with the issues. While they are extremely difficult, Europe dithers and Ireland suffers. The ECB, in Pontius Pilate-like fashion, is washing its hands of any responsibility as if it were a mere bystander. We are shouldering our responsibility but the ECB presided over a system of reckless trading that was mind boggling. Trichet is telling us the bank is right behind us as if in some way we are lucky to be at the rock bottom of a supply chain that will guarantee the stability of European banks and bondholders who operated like casinos to protect the euro.

When all this started, I thought the euro would be our safety net but I was wrong because it has become our strait jacket. We are in a currency that is inherently fragile and not to recognise, debate and reassess our future within the Single Currency is tantamount to putting our heads in the sand and doing a disservice to our citizens.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

The hype around Europe Day appears to be a transparent attempt to repair the damage done to the image of the Union by the austerity programmes implemented in Ireland and across Europe. The attempt is doomed to failure because the image that the establishment parties try to paint of a Europe of democratic values and of a social Europe is contradicted on a daily basis by the actions of the European Commission and the ECB, which are savaging the living standards of working people in Ireland, Greece and Portugal to pay the reckless gambling debts of European banks and speculators.

I spent the past weekend meeting trade unionists and socialists in Portugal. They face a programme of savage cuts to social welfare, pensions, wages, health care and education to be implemented by the so-called troika. It seems from earlier news report that Greek workers are in line for more treatment, another dose of the Frankfurt way. We have experienced this medicine through wage cuts and cutbacks and we are set to experience even more of them under the new Government. We know these policies will not work from the point of view of ordinary people. They will further damage the economy setting off a deflationary, downward spiral in this country as well as in Portugal and Greece. The Commission and the ECB also know that but, nonetheless, they are pressing ahead because they preside over a Europe based on the interests of the millionaires and not the millions of its citizens. For them, banks and speculators securing a return on their investment comes before the needs of working people.

Under the proposals for economic governance outlined in the Europe 2020 strategy, the Commission with the support of European governments wants to make this a permanent feature of the Union. It wants a European shock doctrine to make sure cutbacks and austerity are entrenched in the very foundations of the Union. The Commission proposes to establish a scoreboard system, which will measure whether countries have implemented a sufficient number of cuts and attacks on working people. Countries that miss those targets will face fines of hundreds of millions or billions of euro. This anti-democratic measure is designed to ensure that, regardless of mass opposition, working people will pay for the economic crisis.

Finally, the Government and the European Council have agreed an amendment to the Lisbon treaty, which is designed to facilitate the so-called stability mechanism - in other words, more bank bailouts at the expense of ordinary people. It appears from statements by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade that the Government's intention is not to hold a referendum and give the people a say on the future of Europe and Ireland, which is a vital matter. Perhaps the Government parties have learned from the experience of their predecessors and instead of holding two referenda to ensure they get the right decision from their point of view, they will not hold a referendum and ask the people. I call for a referendum to be held in order that people can pass judgment on the bank bailouts and the austerity policies being pushed by the Union.

Ms Bairbre de Brún, MEP

Cé go bhfuil muid go hiomlán in éadan an socrú atá déanta le Banc Ceannais na hÉireann leis an gCoimisiún agus leis an gcoiste airgeadais idirnáisiúnta, táimid ag iarraidh go mbeidh ról lárnach ag Éire i gcroílár na hEorpa. Is í ár aidhm go gcluinfear guth na hEorpa go hidirnáisiúnta. Táimid tiomanta le bheith ag obair leis na Feisirí Eorpacha, an t-Oireachtas agus an gComhthionól ó Thuaidh chun todhcaí níos fearr a bhaint amach dár bpobal uile. Le chéile, caomhnóimid agus cosnóimid leasanna na hÉireann san Eoraip. Oibreoimid le chéile chun tacú le feirmeoirí agus le pobal tuaithe, le gnóthaí áitiúla agus le heagraíochtaí pobail ag cosaint cearta na n-oibrithe agus ag cur chun tosaigh cearta níos daingne do dhaoine faoi mhíchumas.

Teastaíonn Aontas Eorpach uainn a chuidíonn leis an comhionnanas agus ina bhfuil cealú na bochtaineachta, cruthú na fostaíochta agus cosaint na seirbhísí poiblí mar thosaíocht aige. Fáiltím roimh an deis amach anseo díospóireachtí níos daingne a bheith againn anseo sa choiste seo agus san Oireachtas i gcoitinne faoi conas sin a chur chun tosaigh. Is iomaí dúshlán atá romhainn, poist agus geilleagar, seirbhísí áitiúil, an comhshaol agus athrú aeráide, agus dúshláin dár bpobal áitiúil, dár dtionscadal talmhaíochta agus dár dteaghlaigh feirme.

Tá fís againn - d'Éireann comhionann i Eoraip comhionann. Ach ar an drochuair, ní shin atá i ndán dúinn faoi láthair. In ionad sin tá daoine buartha faoina bpoist, a dtithe agus a dtodhchaí. Feiceann muid laigeacht san eacnamaíocht faoi láthair, laigeacht atá le haimhleas na ndaoine, laigeacht eacnamaíochta ina bhfuil ciorruithe riachtanach agus a bhaineann dínn an cumas chun fás a chur chun cinn. Níl ualach fiachais na hÉireann inbhuanaithe. Is léir go mainneoidh Éire amach anseo. Tá a fhios ag gach éinne gur sin atá i ndán dúinn amach anseo. Dúirt mé sin go hoscailte leis an Coimisinéir Rehn ar na mallaibh. Ciallaíonn na beartais atá i bhfochair ag Éire, ag an Aontas Eorpach agus ag an gcoiste airgeadais idirnáisiúnta ciorruithe fiachmhara, cailliúint poist agus laghdú suntasach ar sheirbhísí poiblí. Ní shin an fís atá ag muintir na hÉireann don Eoraip ná do ról na hÉireann san Eoraip. Caithfimid tabhairt faoi sin.

Mr. Jim Higgins, MEP

Dúirt an t-Uachtarán Charles de Gaulle, blianta fada ó shin, go raibh brionglóid agus aisling aige don lá a rachadh an Aontas Eorpach ón t-Aigéan Atlantach go dtí sléibhte na hUrals. Cheap a lán daoine ag an am go raibh sé seafóideach agus nach raibh ann ach spaisteoireacht intinne de shaghas ó shean ceannaire creacáilte. Ní féídir aon locht ar éinne a cheap sin, mar nuair a rinne de Gaulle an ráiteas sin, ní raibh ach sé ballstáit san Aontas Eorpach. Bhí an mór-roinn scoilte - na tíortha san oirthear faoi ghreim oidhreachta Moscó , an cuirtín iarainn, agus balla Berlin, NATO ar thaobh amháin agus fórsaí an comhaontas USSR ar an taobh eile. Ach, tá brionglóid de Gaulle ag tarlú - an balla agus an cuirtín bainte as a chéile. Tá baill tíortha an oirthir saor, neamhspleách, daonlathach agus bródúil a bheith páirteach sa tionscnamh polaitiúil is rathúla sa domhan. Sin an duais mór atá againn síochán daingean

Ní féidir linn géilleadh do bogás. Féach cad a tharla sa tír seo sa chéad reifreann Nice agus i céad reifreann Lisbon. Caithfimid an gaol idir an saoránach agus an t-Aontas a neartú. Caithfimid taispeáint níos fearr an tionchar deimhneach atá ag an Aontas Eorpach ar ghnáth saol na baillstáit éagsúla. Caithfimid taispeáint gur buíochas dár ballraíocht san Aontas Eorpach nach tír beag ar imeall na hEorpa agus ar imeall an domhain atá ionainn ach go bhfuilimid anois i gcroílár na hEorpa agus in ár imreoir tábhachtach ar an árdán idirnáisiúnta. Tá Coimisinéir againn agus an cumhacht céanna aici agus atá ag na Coimisinéirí eile ón Gearmáin, ón Iodáil agus mar sin de. Tá an méid cumhachta céanna ag ár Feisirí agus atá ag Feisirí eile sa Ghearmáin agus sa Fhrainc. Buíochas do Lisbon a haon, is féidir linn aon moladh a thagann ón gCoimisiún a leasú agus déanann muid é seo go rialta.

Maidir leis an ceangal idir an Eoraip agus an Oireachtas, caithfimid breathnú siar. Thosaigh 66% de na Billí a chuaigh tríd an Oireachtas san Eoraip. Is é Eoraip a chur tús leo. Tá mé an-bhródúil ar fad a bheith mar comhleacaí agus a bheith ag obair le comhleacaithe eile na tíre seo. Tá an deis againn chuile rud a neartú agus a leasú. Chomh maith le sin, tá deis againn leas na tíre seo a chur os comhair na Parlaiminte chuile seachtain. Sin atá le déanamh againn agus déanfaimid sin an tseachtain seo chomh maith.

Ms Phil Prendergast, MEP

I thank the select committee for inviting me to speak at this event. It is a great honour and privilege to speak on the floor of this House, especially as an MEP. It is a tribute to the imagination of this Government that we mark Europe Day in the heart of our democracy with an exceptional event such as this. It sends a message to our fellow citizens in the EU that Ireland remains committed to the EU project. Having MEPs speak from the floor of the House serves to remind everyone that the Irish people are participants in the European Union and that our voice is as relevant as anyone else's.

The founding principle of the European Union is freedom - freedom from intolerance, freedom from exploitation and the freedom to travel and trade across borders. To achieve this, we emphasise what makes us the same and we respect what makes us different. This gives us strength in the global village we would never have had in isolation. This strength allows us to shape our destiny. Today we celebrate that in the place where our public representatives gather to express the will of the people but we cannot pretend this event exists in a vacuum. An air of gloom hangs over the celebration. The Irish people's confidence in the European Union has been sorely tested. The values that shape our Union have been undermined and it threatens what we have achieved and what we can achieve in the future. Ireland faces that threat head-on. We are shouldering responsibilities in the EU in the clearest way. Part of the responsibility is to defend the foundation of our Union. Responsibility is a two-way street and there is a growing sense, here and abroad, that this has been forgotten in some quarters. This has led to a rise in support for isolationists across many parts of the EU but the way of solidarity must prevail. Therefore, we must continue with engagement with European Parliaments and act as a persuader for better, wiser policies from our institutions. That is not just for our sake but for the sake of all European citizens.

Ms Mairead McGuinness, MEP

I suggest the Chairman imports a European idea into this Chamber. I refer to a digital clock. For those of us who speak off the cuff, it shortens our sentences, sharpens our minds and rips up speeches. I will stick to a speech, seeing as I must. Some 61 years ago, Robert Schuman made the observation that Europe will not be made all at once or according to a single plan but will be built through concrete achievements, which first create de facto solidarity. Perhaps we need to recall the concrete achievements, as others have, but acknowledge that the de facto solidarity is and has been sundered. That is not in the interests of any of us, or of the European Union as a whole. What do we do about that? Do we moan, which is an option, or do we work to restore it? There is an important role for small, peripheral countries to rebuild European Union solidarity for all our sakes. When we have the Presidency in 2013, we will have achieved a rebuilding of solidarity. I wish our Government every success in doing so. Some have talked about the big picture and others have written over the weekend and commented on this. I want to talk about real issues for real people on the ground.

Regarding the budget, there is a major debate about who will pay for the European Union budget beyond 2013 and who will be the beneficiaries. The sundering of solidarity is making those budget discussions very difficult and we need to engage in solidarity to deliver on a meaningful budget that will deliver on the 2020 objectives.

In respect of agriculture policy, we need a fully funded Common Agricultural Policy so that our food and agriculture industry can survive and thrive. I am happy with the work done by our Minister and civil servants in this regard but let us acknowledge that the newer member states want a greater share of the budget. If the budget is not increased, the only way the cake be can be divided out is to give each of us a smaller slice. We must be mindful of these real issues for our farmers and for the food industry.

While I am in this Chamber, I will give a warning to the farmers and the agri-food sector. Many are gambling on what they think will be the outcome of CAP reform. They are making decisions in their businesses that may turn out to be incorrect decisions. They are pushing up production costs and we need to warn them about this.

On environmental issues, we are to the fore in Europe. Sometimes we are ahead of ourselves and we need to persuade the rest of the world to do likewise or we will lose jobs and growth. As a Member of the European Parliament, I would like to talk more about European Union issues and not just Irish issues. I would like to listen more to the concerns of my fellow Members of Parliament. Maybe we should all do that and there would be increased solidarity. Thank you, Chairman for this opportunity.

Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP

Míle buíochas as ucht an díospóireacht seo a eagrú dúinn inniu, Lá na hEorpa. Tá nath sa Ghaeilge a deireann - Gaeil sinne. Is ea, agus is Eorpaigh sinn. Aontaím go hiomlán leis an nath sin. Taispeánann an díospóireacht seo fírinne an ráitis sin. Since we joined the EU in 1973, Ireland has contributed enormously to Europe and benefited enormously from it. This has been instanced by my colleague Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP, and others. Suffice to say, when we joined our GDP was 50% of the European average and today it is 125% of the European average, notwithstanding the economic recession. I have frequently heard Europeans mention two things they admire about Ireland. One is the smoking ban, which they would like to introduce in many other countries, and the second is the peace process in Northern Ireland, the success of which we saw in the elections at the weekend. I am the rapporteur in the European Parliament for the International Fund for Ireland. I recommended that the fund be continued and phased out over a period rather than brought to an end abruptly, particularly in view of the threat posed by dissidents, as we have seen in recent times with the killing of Ronan Kerr and the year previously the attempted killing of Peadar Heffron, both members of the PSNI but also Gaelic footballers.

On the European front I have also given opinions on volunteering - this is the year of the volunteer - data protection and unlocking the potential of creative and cultural industries.

Much has been said about regaining our image abroad, which is important. The Taoiseach, in particular, has received many plaudits for his efforts in that regard. There are a few things we could do in putting our own house in order. The Minister for Health and Children asked the board of the HSE to resign and it complied. It would be a good idea at national level to ask all boards of State agencies to resign and to then bring back those whom we needed and competent enough to do the job who were not in place because of cronyism. We should also bring to an end the bonus culture that is anathema to the true spirit of Irish people who like to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. We must ease off on the blame game and replace it with the reclaim game - we must reclaim opportunities in Europe, our image and, above all, the values and Christian principles which at one time made our country great. If we can do this, we can really give example to the rest of Europe. The EU 2020 strategy, as referred to by the Chairman, is an opportunity for us. If it is a success throughout Europe, it will be a success for this country. This was once known as the island of saints and scholars. It can become the island of entrepreneurs and volunteers. We would then be an example to the rest of Europe and the world.

Chairman

I have received a special request from the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Alan Kelly, who was formerly an MEP, to be allowed to make a brief intervention. With the agreement of the House, I will allow him to do so.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Teacher's pet.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Alan Kelly)

I would be very disappointed if members disagreed. I welcome all of the MEPs present. This is a great occasion. I compliment the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, on this good initiative. This is a good start in looking at the process of how we are going to engage more with the European Union and MEPs. In particular, I welcome the two new MEPs. I mention especially my successor, Ms Phil Prendergast, MEP, and wish her the best of luck.

I wish to pose some questions and make some brief comments in the short time available. While being positive about the European Union, I encourage our MEPs to pressurise the European institutions into answering questions on their role in the situation in which this country finds itself. In the main, it was a domestic crisis. However, EU regulation systems failed, a matter on which I made many contributions when I was an MEP. We must consider it in great detail. I had a couple of meetings with Commissioner Almunia, in particular on stress tests carried out in Anglo Irish Bank, within two months of which it needed further recapitalisation.

I compliment the MEPs who have consistently raised the issue of the penal interest rate this country has been charged. We must secure a considerable decrease. It is the first time this has happened in the history of Europe. We must investigate further the manner in which the rate was agreed and how it was set. One could ask why we must wait until 2013 to have the terms of the European Stability Mechanism put in place in order that there would be a structured way by which debt would be shared with lenders. It is important to address this issue. It is important to find out how a meeting could take place, as was the case recently, between six eurozone Ministers, Mr. Trichet and Mr. Rehn on the situation in Greece without this country being represented. All sides of the House should be concerned at the manner in which that meeting took place. I do not agree with it. It is important that we examine and are mindful of what is happening with Greece to ensure we can piggyback on any positive developments in the terms negotiated.

MEPs will be charged as part of an overall diplomatic offensive to wear the green jersey and restore the country's image. As a former MEP, I have no doubt they will do this to the best of their ability, on which I compliment them, as it is a major role. Members are aware that the European Union is all about relationships. There are key persons from this country working in the Union for us and they will be working closely with the Government in doing so. I look forward to working with them. It is important that we change the way in which we are seen in the Union. The Eurobarometer studies have presented a more negative view of the country. Collectively, we have a huge role to play. We must engage closely with the public in order to improve it.

Chairman

That completes all of the contributions by the MEPs and former MEP. We received apologies from a number of MEPs whom I know would have very much liked to participate, Mr. Brian Crowley, Mr. Liam Aylward and Ms Nessa Childers. We also invited Mr. Jim Nicholson, MEP, and Ms Diane Dodds, MEP, but they have not responded to date.

We will move on to the next part of the proceedings. We have a little more than half an hour for a question and answer session.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Is the Chairman serious?

Chairman

I propose to take questions from Deputies, three or four at a time, and ask the leader of the MEP delegation or a nominated individual to respond. If a question is adequately answered by the leader of a delegation, there will be no need for other MEPs to contribute in order to maximise the number of questions asked.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

On a point of order, we were meant to have 55 minutes for questions. There was a flimsy reason for the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, being allowed to speak. I ran in the 1999 European elections. May I have a chance to speak also?

Chairman

The Deputy will have a chance to contribute. He should resume his seat and put up his hand.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

My hand was up. I ran in the European elections in 1999. Is that not a flimsy enough reason? The Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, was an MEP.

Chairman

The Deputy indicated that he wished to raise a point of order.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

I travelled up from my county today on the assumption there would be 55 minutes for questions which the Chairman has reduced by 50%.

Chairman

I am sorry, but the Deputy is wasting time.

Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP

Ming will have to run again.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

It is a disgrace.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The focus of the debate is Europe 2020. Will we still have the euro in 2020 and, if so, what will it take for it to be stable? Will it be a two-speed European Union? If the euro fails, will that spell the demise of the entire European project?

Deputy Pat Breen

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP, indicated why the European Union had been founded after two world wars. It stands for peace and reconciliation. Today, we are living in a very different world. There is much conflict and many changes are taking place, especially in the Middle East. People are striving for democracy and trying to deal with conflict. This country has a great reputation in conflict resolution. How can we make the European Union much more effective on the world stage? Conflict resolution is extremely important, especially in the Middle East. What role can the Union play in the future in that regard?

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh chuile dhuine atá tagtha anseo ó Pharlaimint na hEorpa. Is mór an trua é nach raibh an Coimisinéir in ann fanacht chun déileáil le ceisteanna uainn.

In the context of the economic crisis, Ms Marian Harkin, MEP, spoke about the European Union dithering. Deputy Micheál Martin inquired, not for the first time in the House, about the lack of broad-based leadership at EU level. He contrasted the approach of President Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel with the more expansive and generous approach of people such as Helmut Kohl in the past. Do our MEPs agree that at present, as well as having an economic crisis and a crisis around the euro, we also have a leadership crisis at the heart of Europe? An Taoiseach spoke of the growth potential of the European Union, but I wonder how the current economic situation is impacting on the whole accession programme? Would MEPs care to comment on that?

Given that Food Harvest 2020 has, rightly, returned the issue of agriculture and food to the central role it should always have occupied at the heart of our economic policy, what do MEPs have to say about the challenges now facing us concerning reform of the Common Agricultural Policy?

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

I thank Deputies for their questions. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked whether there will still be a euro currency in 2020, and I believe there will. EU member states do not want the eurozone to break up. The objective of the European Central Bank has been to control inflation. In controlling price inflation, the ECB has contributed to assist house-price inflation. For two and a half years, I questioned the president of the ECB about that and when I remind him of it now he gets a bit shirty and is not too pleased.

By controlling price inflation in the first ten years of the euro, some 16 million jobs were created within the eurozone - many more jobs than were created in America in the same period. The euro will remain with us because it is the flagship currency. By 2050, the world's population will have increased by 2 billion with Europe accounting for 6% of the total. We cannot go back to a disintegrated Europe, which a break-up of the euro would lead us towards, involving a two or three-speed Europe.

Deputy Pat Breen asked about the effectiveness of the EU on the world stage. People campaigned for and against the Lisbon treaty, but in terms of treaties, small member states are lucky when all the rules are written down because the big boys cannot then say that they did not agree to them. The rules include having a semi-permanent head of the European Council for the past two and half years, as well as a new Vice-President of the Commission. The latter person, Baroness Ashton, sits in the Council of Ministers and is therefore accountable to the European Parliament. She is the voice of our external action policy and, although new to the job, is working harder and has been more effective than she gets credit for. Recently, Baroness Ashton has appointed a team, which includes Mr. David O'Sullivan, the former Secretary General of the European Commission, who is Baroness Ashton's chief operating officer. While the new arrangement is in an embryonic stage, I believe the EU will in turn play a more effective part in this regard.

As regards Deputy Ó Feaghaíl's questions, I am not an expert on agriculture, although I did work for the Irish Farmers Association at one time. We are in a different game now because one cannot sit outside the Agriculture Council meetings any longer and hope to pressurise Ministers into taking decisions. The European Parliament co-decides the budget and, therefore, even the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has started to network more with MEPs in the European Parliament.

We do not have problems with the EU institutions, but with some Heads of Government. President Sarkozy has been extremely unhelpful and I will go no further than to say that not many people in his own country are pleased with him. Much of what he has been saying is for domestic consumption because at one stage he was third in the opinion polls behind Marine Le Pen. Chancellor Merkel has had her own domestic problems and people are asking if she has the authority to pay all this money into the EU budget. There is also the question of the recent Finnish elections. All those are national issues, however, not European ones, although they constantly translate into newspaper headlines as being about the EU. President Sarkozy is Head of the French State, but is not head of any EU institution. It is inevitable, however, that in the run-up to elections in member states, one will see such game-playing. We all know that happens.

Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

As regards Deputy Catherine Murphy's question on the euro, there is no doubt that if we are complacent the euro will go down. It is linked to the other question about whether there is a leadership crisis in Europe. There is such a crisis in the sense that, up to quite recently, many member states sat back and allowed others to make decisions. There is an increasing degree of intergovernmentalism taking place which does not suit Ireland, or small states in general, because the bigger states tend to dominate intergovernmental decisions. It is extremely important to defend the balance between the European Council - where intergovernmental decisions are made - and the European Parliament, which has representation from citizens as a whole. That balance will counter the intergovernmental nature of decisions that are being made during the current crisis. If we are complacent and do not reassert the role of the European Parliament and the importance of citizens to the project, it will fail.

Where can we find solutions to these matters? It is not enough for us to debate these issues once a year on Europe Day. It is an important initiative, but next year we should look at having a more elaborate event that would include the public in the process. It should move beyond Parliament into other venues in cities and towns around the country. We need an in-depth debate, which should not be left until next year; it should begin now. Arising from today's discussions there should be some way of finding a forum whereby the public can engage in this debate. Their future depends on the success of the European Union and the euro.

Chairman

I do not really want to go through all the leaders. Perhaps we can take another group and I will then call on another group of leaders.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We should try to get as many to contribute as possible.

Chairman

We can get the TDs in first and then people can address points if they have not already been covered by previous speakers.

Mr. Pat The Cope Gallagher, MEP

I would like to make a contribution.

Chairman

I call Deputy Joe O'Reilly.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly

I welcome our MEPs to the House. This is a wonderful exercise that deserves to be repeated. I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, on her initiative in putting this together. She has been persistent in doing so and it is a great success.

The IMF and the EU have been urging this Government to take action domestically to deal with professions that are closed to competition. A notable example of this is the legal profession. Do our MEPs think competition legislation is needed within Europe to deal with the fact that successive reports have established that in most EU countries there is no competition within the legal profession? How do MEPs suggest we could pursue the reform agenda, given that it has become an economic mantra to make ourselves cost competitive? We have professions that are not open to competition - the notable example being the legal profession, with costs accelerating there - which merit action at both domestic and European level. I would like a response to these points.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

I wonder what our MEPs think about the following. I am someone who absolutely and utterly loves Europe. I love croissants, the Eiffel Tower, pizza and Juventus football club. I love the canals of Holland and I love their beautiful strains of sativa and indica. I love weiss bier, Volkswagen, Queen's Park Rangers and Tony Benn, but there is one thing for sure - I despise the European Union. I do not like it in the slightest. If one were to conduct a poll in County Roscommon or south Leitrim, one would discover that I have quite a lot of friends when it comes to this matter. The EU has destroyed our fishing industry. Ireland has 44% of the EU's fishing grounds, yet gets less than 10% of the catch. The EU is destroying the fishing grounds and has driven people off the land. One cannot buy a head of cabbage or a carrot on the street in Roscommon anymore - one must go to a multinational.

Chairman

Can we have a question, please?

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

The question is coming.

Chairman

Could the Deputy come to it a bit more quickly?

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

The EU has attempted to destroy our postal services. The grandson of one of our great heroes, Éamon de Valera, told this House that we did not have any choice when it came to Europe. Now the EU is attempting to prevent people from cutting turf. Last week, I read in The Tuam Herald that a new directive is on the way which will drive up diesel costs. On Friday, something happened which, if it took place in the schoolyard, would be called bullying. If any of my kids were excluded from a conversation about them, I would call it bullying. How do the MEPs deem this acceptable? Are they Irish people or Europeans first? I know what the people want them to be first, namely, Irish people. They may be proud to be European but they should not go for it hook, line and sinker. Which are they?

Deputy Michael McNamara

Will the MEPs outline how the changes agreed at the last summit at the end of March with regard to the introduction of a permanent bailout mechanism differ in any meaningful way from the mechanism agreed for Ireland, of which the House is almost unanimously critical? Does the pact for the euro differ in any way from it or allow for any burden sharing? It appears that it does not.

I ask for the Chairman's indulgence to put two brief supplementary questions with regard to the Common Agricultural Policy. Will it be reformed in 2013 or will the reform be deferred into the future? How can Gay Mitchell, MEP, state that Catherine Ashton is a success as the High Representative, especially in view of the changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty such that foreign policy would be guided by human rights? I refer in particular to the last elections in Ethiopia in the course of which a European mission was sent there. Shortly before the mission was sent, they were sending reports that food aid sent by the European Union, in particular this State, was being used for political ends.

Chairman

We have the question.

Deputy Michael McNamara

A new development agreement was agreed just before that election.

Deputy John Browne

I join with the words of welcome for our MEP friends. Their contributions were interesting and informative. Mr. Gallagher, MEP, referred to the Common Fisheries Policy review. Many fishermen throughout the country believe this is no more than window dressing and that it will not benefit them whatsoever. Will Mr. Gallagher and his colleagues outline the greater role they could play under the new co-decision rules to ensure Irish fishermen get a fair deal?

Deputy Tom Fleming

I welcome the MEPs here today. It is a good exercise for them to attend the Dáil and it is important for us to liaise with them. I will be a little parochial in my address to the MEPs, especially to my fellow countyman, Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP. The matter relates to our local Kerry Airport. My colleague, Deputy Brendan Griffin, has brought the matter before the House, as have I, during the past month. This is a vital matter for our county, a peripheral county. The delay with regard to the public service obligation at the moment is rather concerning for the tourism industry and businesses in general. It means our connectivity is affected as is access to our county in general. It was alarming to hear that it will take six months from a given date one month ago. The matter is with the EU Commission. Discussions are still under way between Kerry Airport and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. I trust the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, will help out along with his former MEP colleagues and that this matter will be taken up at the highest level to be expedited. We know this will be successful eventually but six months is a long period. The tourism industry will be gone for this year and our businesses will be greatly affected in these straitened times.

Another matter close to Seán Kelly's heart is the aspect of our culture and tourism and the potential for our great Gaelic games. I am pleased to see that the GAA is prepared to consider the potential of promoting our Gaelic games throughout Europe and the world. It has probably the two best field games and hurling in particular is a spectacular game. It will be a significant attraction for visitors to the country and it will help to get our teams out into the world as well.

Chairman

Before I bring in the MEPs to answer, I welcome the Irish Honorary Consul in Kolkata, formerly Calcutta, in India, Mr. Jalan, who is in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. You are very welcome.

Mr. Pat The Cope Gallagher, MEP

I will begin with the last question from Deputy Fleming with regard to public service obligation, PSO, routes. Coming from west Donegal, where we have our own regional airport, I realise more than most the importance of regional airports. If we examine the regulations, we find Europe does not decide on PSOs. Europe has given an indication about distance from Dublin and the improvement in the road infrastructure during recent years. There is flexibility and it is a matter for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, who is coming into the House now, whether it is to be reviewed. I realise how vital the matter is but we must take into consideration the improvement in the roads. The matter affects people in my constituency in Sligo, Knock and Galway and across the Border in areas of Derry. It is a matter at national level rather than European level.

I refer to the question of the Common Fisheries Policy. We, the fishing industry, paid too great a price for membership. The most prolific fishing grounds in Europe are off the west of Ireland. However, it is easy to be critical now but those who negotiated entry on our behalf and the Government which signed up in 1983 never foresaw the developments that took place. However, there has been an important development during recent months on boarfish. It might not be known to many but Ireland secured an arrangement. The Irish representative at that meeting happens to be sitting beside me, the former Minister, Deputy Brendan Smith. He secured 67%, the largest percentage of any total allowable catch in Europe.

This is a turnaround but it does not help all of the pelagic or demersal fleet. We have an opportunity with the review of the Common Fisheries Policy to bring in more regionalisation because the one-size-fits-all approach is not good enough from the south of Greece to the north of Ireland, to the north-west of Ireland or the north-west of Scotland. Hopefully, regionalisation will be part of the new Common Fisheries Policy. The Commission's views will be made known to us in July. Fortunately, as a result of co-decision, it is not the final document. The fisheries committee will have an opportunity to make our views known and to add to or amend it. Hopefully it will improve.

Europe is providing substantial millions of euro to us at the moment. To those prepared to criticise this, I point out that we need the funding for the day-to-day running of the country this year. We have the European stability fund and the European facility mechanism on a temporary basis but in 2013 this will be converted into a permanent arrangement as a result of the foresight of those who drew up the Lisbon treaty. I understand Article 48 deals with this matter. A minor amendment will ensure it is there for the future and I am confident that in 2020 the euro will be in place.

In the area of agriculture we are concerned about Mercosur. We are keen to ensure we have sufficient funds because it is not simply about taking off or adding on a percentage. It is about proper and adequate resourcing, the increase in the population of the world and food security.

There may be other issues. Reference was made to the peace process. We are keen to ensure we can continue PEACE III to provide funds for the necklace of counties along the Border which have benefited greatly as a result of our membership of the European Union.

Ms Marian Harkin, MEP

I will respond to the two questions on agriculture from my Independent colleagues since I am a substitute on the committee. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked if we will have a euro, if it will be stable, if it will be two-speed and if the euro fails what it would mean for Europe. We probably will have a euro in 2020 but whether it will be a two-speed euro remains to be seen. I stated earlier that the euro is an inherently fragile currency, a view I genuinely believe. Let us consider the state of California or Florida. Both are bankrupt at the moment but the Federal Reserve has a transfer union in place that keeps them going. This does not happen at European level. For Ireland to survive within the euro it would have to run a surplus all the time. No country is politically able to do this. It is an inherent difficulty with the euro. Interest rates will now increase when we want them to remain low. That presents a real difficulty for peripheral countries. All of the good economic governance procedures now being put in place amount to closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. They will help, but there are still crucial issues at the heart of the currency that must be dealt with before we can have a stable currency. That is why we must have a debate on the euro, whether Ireland can remain in the eurozone and what sort of currency will serve the economy well.

As for as my colleague, Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan, and his love-hate relationship with the European Union, I agree with some of what he says. I do not, however, agree that people have been driven off the land. The truth is that on the first day 75% of the European budget was given to agriculture, although that figure has now fallen to 40%. While many farmers have left the land, if we were not part of the European Union, the numbers would be much greater. The European Union might not have it all right in agricultural terms, but many farmers in County Roscommon will be looking carefully at the single farm payment and might not despise the Union as much as the Deputy thinks.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

They do not like being prostitutes.

Ms Marion Harkin, MEP

I do not think they are.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

They are being forced to be.

Ms Marion Harkin, MEP

There is a universal service obligation for the postal service. There is a five-day delivery system and it depends on how member states deal with the issue.

On the CAP, I highlight the size of the budget, how much agriculture receives and the single farm payment.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I welcome this debate. Ireland should never be an unquestioning member of the European Union. As we must have dissenting voices, I encourage our MEPs to be such.

There is a widespread public belief tax harmonisation is the long-term EU plan. Is that perception correct? Are members of the European Parliament aware that the European Union has been losing the confidence of the public in recent months, particularly regarding our economic problems? There is a perception that the European banks are ripping people off. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly's comments earlier, but where in his view did regulation go wrong?

There is a lot of talk about peace, human rights and equality in the European Union, but many will ask about those EU member state governments involved in ambitious militarisation projects in Africa. Why, when we talk about the slaughter which occurred on 11 September 2001, is there never any talk from the European Union about the 2,000 innocent Pakistani and Afghani civilians killed in US drone attacks in the last three years? There are contradictions on human rights issues.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Given the tendency for bureaucracy to grow at the expense of democracy, how can we curb the enthusiasm of the bureaucrats in the European institutions? Jean Dominique Giuliani is an example. He issued a report in November that was very critical of this country, divisive in the European Union and little short of racist. Can means be found to control the tendency of some leaders in the European Union to express their opinions in a manner that might not give an indication of their being familiar with issues being dealt with in individual member states? I am referring to the emphatic way we sought ratification of the Lisbon treaty, when we clearly indicated that the President of the Commission and the President of the Council were to lead in major European policy initiatives.

Deputy Robert Dowds

To what extent does the European Union recognise the need for greater burden sharing in the banking crisis and the crises in Portugal and Greece? As someone who strongly supports European unity, how do the MEPs see us being best able to promote a greater sense of purpose? This is particularly important, given the changing nature of the world and the fact that Europe will not be economically or culturally as significant in the future.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I agree with the notion of European unity and I am fond of the European Union. I am not so sure, however, that we are being treated as fairly as we would like by it. We could be forgiven for suspecting the major powers in Europe have pulled in their horns and are looking to the own interests much more than to those of peripheral countries such as Ireland. The latest increase in interest rates is a perfect example. Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, told us we needed access to this money to run the country. That is true, but it does not change the fact that it is immoral that the taxpayer is being asked to pick up the tab for badly run financial institutions.

We signed many things away under the Lisbon and Nice treaties that might not be in our interests now. The three biggest employers in Wexford, Cow & Gate, Irish Pride bakery and Celtic Linen, cannot get natural gas because Bord Gáis is not allowed to run a pipe from the Dublin to Cork pipeline to Wexford because it would not be profitable enough in the short term. That is completely anti-social and pro-profit.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

On a point of order, can I move that we extend the question and answer session for another 20 minutes? Many of us have travelled here today on a non-sitting day to attend and ask questions. Curtailing the debate to half an hour is not acceptable.

Chairman

I wish I could do so, but the order was made by the Dáil and the MEPs have to leave. I cannot change the order at this stage.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

That is a pity.

Chairman

It is.

Ms Bairbre de Brún, MEP

Given that the questions were asked in English, I will respond in English.

There are some within the European Union for whom tax harmonisation is a long-term goal. Equally, it is clear that they are trying to use the current difficulties of some member states to push that agenda. On the permanent stability mechanism and the pact for the euro, some member states are trying to use the difficulties of Ireland, Greece and Portugal as a back door to impose the measures forced through for this country in their own countries under the guise of prevention.

Do we know the European Union is losing the confidence of the public? Yes, we do. We must be cognisant of this and have said time and again that while people want to be part of the European Union, they do not want the austerity measures that have been forced on us through this pact, measures that are taking away the possibility of economic growth in the future. How can we repay and rebuild if economic growth is not possible in the future? Equality needs to be at the heart of Europe. If action is not taken when Israel breaks the human rights part of that trade agreement with the European Union and we do not suspend that arrangement, how can we expect other countries in that arena to take seriously that kind of human rights clause in trade agreements?

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

I refer to a question raised by Deputy Finian McGrath about the contradiction within the European Union, in particular with regard to militarisation. It is the same in every aspect of European Union policy that the European Union says one thing, has fine words and lofty goals about peace and social security and workers' rights but it does something else. The European Union is an agent of militarisation around the world. The European-based arms companies are among the largest in the world and have an institutional basis within the European Union. The European Union talks about workers' rights but legislation and directives are designed to drive down the rights of workers. The European Union talks about public services such as the postal services but it is driving the liberalisation and privatisation of postal services right across Europe.

With regard to the question raised by Deputy Kelly about the interest rate, I can see the press releases being written by this Government heralding what a wonderful success for the new Government it is when we get a 1% reduction in the interest rate. Some reality is required in this discussion. It will not make a jot of difference to the sustainability of debt in Ireland because the debt will go higher than 100% of GDP and the average rate of interest being paid on the debt will be higher than our annual growth rate and the economy will simply sink under the debt. The proposal in Ireland and across Europe is for workers to refuse to pay that debt. Deputy Flanagan asked what kind of Europe we want. We need to draw a distinction between the current European Union, big business, neoliberal, militarised Union and the kind of Europe the Left stands for and the kind of Europe that workers across Europe stand for. We stand for a socialist Europe where the dictatorship of the financial markets is broken, a Europe based on solidarity rather than on militarisation and where the massive resources that exist in Europe are used not to bail out the banks but to raise the living standards of all.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

On a point of order, on a positive note, my colleague, Deputy Ó Caoláin advises me that Ms de Brún's comments in response to questions may be the first time that an elected representative from the Six Counties has addressed this House, even if it is in committee. We should mark this historic occasion.

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

That is a terrible attack on Deputy Gerry Adams.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

He was elected as a representative of the people of County Louth.

Mr. Proinsias De Rossa, MEP

On a point of order, it would be important that in response to very key questions that this session does not end with the rather bizarre contributions from Mr. Murphy.

Chairman

The Minister of State will reply to the debate.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Mr. De Rossa has some neck representing European speculators and bankers.

(Interruptions).

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Lucinda Creighton)

I am very conscious that the MEPs must leave to attend the plenary session in Strasbourg and their flight leaves at 4 p.m. I join other speakers in welcoming our MEPs from North and South of the Border, in particular, from north of the Border, to this sitting. I acknowledge and thank the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste for supporting this initiative. This will not be a once-off event but rather it is a first-off, so to speak. While diverse opinions exist on both sides of the House it is important to have an opportunity to express those opinions and to debate them and this is the first step in that process.

I also thank Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn for her participation in this debate on Europe Day.

Deputy Mick Wallace

It is her job.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

This commitment and contribution is not for just one day a year. Our engagement with Europe is of necessity constant because we need engagement now more than ever. The Taoiseach in his address to the House expressed his concern that the recent course of events has taken the shine off Europe in so far as the Irish people are concerned. Very often, in seeking to address this issue, we use the mantra that we must communicate more with our citizens on EU issues and I would be the first to agree. However, we should consider carefully the nature and quality of this communication. It should not be simply a provision of information on EU policies, although that is important; it should also keep sight of what Europe is and what it stands for. Too often, it seems to me, and I do not know if it is deliberate, we lose sight of why the European Union was created and why we joined it. Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP, defined his view of the European Union and I subscribe to that vision.

The European Union of today has evolved and adapted to contemporary circumstances, but the Coal and Steel Community and later the EEC, were created to ensure that never again would Europe be destroyed and ravaged by war. This was the simple message of Robert Schuman in the declaration made 61 years ago and which we recall and celebrate today. This year, too, marks the fiftieth anniversary of the submission by Ireland of its application to join what was the European Economic Community. In 1961, Seán Lemass clearly expressed that Ireland's application to join was driven by vision, rather than materialism. He wrote, "My Government fully share the ideals which inspired the parties to the Treaty and accept the aims of the Community as set out therein, as well as the action proposed to achieve those aims". Even prior to this, some far-sighted politicians attempted to advance Ireland's place in the European project. As early as 1957, John A. Costello proposed a fact-finding committee to educate TDs and Senators on the difference between the EEC and the European Free Trade Area and the benefits for Ireland of joining the EEC. Today, Europe is built on strong foundations of shared values and common purpose, rooted in freedom and democracy. Despite Deputy Boyd-Barrett's cynical claim that holding this special debate today is something of a sick joke, we have every right to celebrate the power, strength and importance of these ideas. The Berlin wall could not withstand their force and they provided the basis on which our divided continent was reunited willingly and peacefully. Who here can forget the celebrations on 1 May 2004, when we welcomed our new partners from central and eastern Europe into the European Union?

Ireland has achieved much through its membership of the European Union and it is right and fitting to celebrate today. The European Union continues to offer hope of a better future to the millions of our fellow Europeans and, through the enlargement process, strengthens the stability of our continent and advances its prosperity. Since our accession in 1973, we have experienced the transformative power of the European Union which not only brought us from poverty to relative wealth - even today in the midst of crisis we remain among the richest nations on this planet - but also helped to radically alter the historically difficult relationship between Ireland and our closest neighbour. That change in the Anglo-Irish relationship was a major contribution to the negotiating environment which culminated in the Good Friday Agreement. I am glad to recall on Europe Day the part the European Union and its ideals played in the process of delivering peace on this island and the very practical support for the agreement given by the PEACE programmes of the EU. It is fitting that we welcome in particular Ms de Brún, MEP and that we recognise the significant progress made on this island so willingly supported by our European partners.

I refer to the role of the Oireachtas in European affairs which is at the core of the programme for Government and in which I take a personal interest, having been involved in work to advance the role of the Oireachtas during the lifetime of the previous Dáil. We need to hold a meaningful and open examination of the reason EU policies are being proposed and how they are implemented. These policies, after all, affect the daily lives of each and every one of us, from switching on a light bulb to buying food that is safe to eat in the supermarket. We cannot forget that as representatives of the Irish people, the Members of the Dáil and the Seanad and our national MEPs have a pivotal part to play in this respect. That is why the Government has laid great emphasis on ensuring the voice of the Oireachtas is heard through the scrutiny of EU business. The programme for Government sets out specific commitments with regard to the role of Oireachtas committees, including a much enhanced role for sectoral committees in examining EU proposals of relevance to them. This will be done by the new Dáil in a new and rigorous fashion.

We have delivered on our commitment that the Taoiseach will brief the Oireachtas before European Council meetings to facilitate proper debate on significant EU issues in advance of decisions being taken. That is a significant advance. I remind the committee that we are empowered by the EU treaties in this regard. Under the Lisbon treaty, the Oireachtas is entitled to receive all draft legislative acts at the same time as EU institutions and the Government. Furthermore, the treaty has accorded new powers to national parliaments to enhance the democratic legitimacy of the Union. The voices of our MEPs at EU level have never been stronger. The extension of the European Parliament's legislative role to a wider range of EU policies has ensured the Parliament has significantly more muscle in representing the views of EU citizens, including Irish citizens, at the European decision making table. That is another hugely important development.

During this debate, we have examined the Europe 2020 strategy and considered where Europe will be in that year. The heads of state and government undertook a similar exercise in June 2010. We are engaging with a forward-looking strategy based on an analysis of what the EU and its member states need to do to ensure Europe becomes stronger, internally and on the international stage. We want a Europe that, having weathered the world economic and financial crisis, can introduce medium-term and long-term reforms that promote growth and employment. That is in the interests of everybody. One of the key features of the Europe 2020 strategy is its sharp focus on five EU headline areas: employment, which is of major significance in this country at this time; research and development, including innovation; climate change and energy; education; and social inclusion, particularly poverty.

Ten days ago, Ireland and other member states submitted their national reform programmes under the strategy. Ireland's programme identifies ambitious national targets in each of the five headline areas and sets out the steps the Government must take to achieve them. We are committed to introducing these measures. It is not simply a case of engaging in rhetoric and allowing reports to gather dust on the shelf. We are absolutely determined to implement what is necessary to meet our targets. When the Minister for Finance unveils his jobs initiative on behalf of the Government later this week, it will be clear that further steps are being taken to ensure we achieve our targets, particularly in relation to stimulating job creation and growth in the small and medium sized enterprise sector. Now that we have put the building blocks in place, implementation and action are essential to improve our competitiveness, foster employment and contribute to the sustainability of our finances.

Ireland has an substantial role to play in innovation, which is at the heart of the programme for Government. It is fitting and appropriate and that the EU Commissioner for Research, Innovation and Science, Mrs. Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, joined us for part of today's debate. Her directorate general is tasked with the establishment of the European research area and the creation of a genuine single market for knowledge, research and innovation. This is ad idem with the Government’s agenda. If the EU is to succeed in its agenda, Ireland has to be at the heart of it. I thank Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn for her enthusiasm and the work she has done to try to rebuild and repair Ireland’s reputation at European level. There is broad public understanding and awareness of the funding Ireland receives from the EU in sectors like agriculture and - until recently - roads and infrastructure. There is much less consciousness of the extent to which Ireland benefits from EU research and development funding through its participation in a variety of framework programmes. A significant amount of EU funding has been made available for innovation, research and development in this State. The Government will continue to participate actively in such programmes because they are critical for our national development and the development of our economy.

As I am conscious that the MEPs are anxious to get going-----

Mr. Gay Mitchell, MEP

Perhaps we can be given a loan of the Government jet.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

-----I will make one or two concluding points. It is important that I respond to the leaders of the other groups in the Oireachtas. The leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Martin, said he was disappointed about the timing of today's event and made the point that we should have a week-long debate. I note that he disappeared after the first part of the debate.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Where is the Taoiseach?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I do not know how he would have managed if the debate had lasted a week.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Has he gone back to Europe?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Deputy Martin said he would like to see greater Opposition engagement with and participation in the framing of plans for the future. That will be the case. I ask the Deputies opposite for some leniency. We have been in office for just eight weeks. I have held this portfolio for less than eight weeks. We have made progress by holding a special sitting of the Dáil to mark Europe Day, which has never happened before.

I would like to respond to a point made by Deputy Higgins and Paul Murphy, MEP. They spoke about neoliberal conspiracy theories and claimed that the EU has done down the working people of Europe. It would be remiss of us to ignore the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, Article 23 of which assures equality between men and women in the workplace and Article 30 of which refers to protection in the event of unjustified dismissal. The EU has introduced more than 400 legislative measures to protect workers' rights. They would not have been introduced in this State if they had not been required by the EU.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

That says a great deal about the State.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is essential to note that legislation-----

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Why could we not do it ourselves?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

-----covering areas such as collective redundancy, working hours, consultation of workers, equal treatment, equal pay, parental leave, part-time work and the position and security of agency workers emanated from the European institutions.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan

Why do we need someone to tell us to do these things?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

We should not lose sight of the benefits this country has seen as a result of its membership of the European Union.

Deputy Joe Higgins

What was Fine Gael doing when it was in government over the years?

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

If the Chair will indulge me, I will conclude by quoting from a speech made in the Dáil in 1972 by the Taoiseach of the day as he reflected on the events of the preceding years:

It is a salutary exercise to reflect on the kind of Europe - even the kind of world - we would have today if the European statesmen in the seats of power at the beginning of this century had been endowed with the same vision, the same dedication to peace and the same sense of Community as were Schuman, Spaak, Adenauer and de Gasperi. It is conceivable that Europe and the world would have been spared two devastating wars, that we would not have had the division of Europe into two blocs and that we would be nearer to a solution of the problems of the developing world.

He continued:

Today we stand at a most important crossroads in our history. The road we take will determine not only the future of our country for generations to come, but also the contribution we make to the creation of a Europe that will measure up to the high ideals of the founders of the Community. I am confident that the decision we take will reflect our people's faith in their capacity to help fashion for themselves and for future generations of Irish men and women a better Ireland in a better Europe.

We have fashioned a better future for ourselves in Europe and through Europe. It is our responsibility to continue to strive for peace and prosperity on this island and on the Continent of Europe for the generations that will follow.

Mr. Seán Kelly, MEP

Well done.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. That concludes today's proceedings. I thank everyone for attending and contributing to our valuable discussion.

The select committee adjourned at 2.20 p.m. sine die.