Select Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 2022

Migration: Discussion with European Commissioner for Home Affairs

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputies Howlin and Calleary. Ar son an choiste, ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur, on behalf of the committee, I would like to extend a welcome to the European Commissioner for Home Affairs, Ms Ylva Johansson, and her colleagues, to our meeting today. Ms Barbara Nolan is very welcome back to the committee. Mr. Brian Synott and Ms Monika Maglione are also very welcome. We will be engaging on the topic of migration. We look forward to that. I thank the witnesses for the pre-meeting engagement we had for a few minutes upstairs as well. There is so much to discuss on this matter and we look forward to the engagement. I have no doubt the Commissioner's ministerial experience in Sweden adds value to the work she is doing.

The witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if any of their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that the witnesses comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In that regard, I ask members participating on MS Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution to the meeting. Masks should continue to be worn throughout the meeting by all present and should only be removed when speaking. I call on the Commissioner to make her opening statement.

Ms Ylva Johansson

It is a pleasure to be here in the Parliament in Dublin, Ireland, and to have the possibility to speak with members and to listen to their views. Of course, I would like to answer all their questions. There is a lot we can say about migration but I would like to update members on where we are on the path that I presented one and a half years ago and some of the challenges we are facing right now.

The previous Commissioner presented proposals for migration and asylum policy. That was blocked and it was not possible to move forward. With the new pact, we have new momentum. Member states are being constructive. They are seeing it positively. Most member states see that this is a balanced proposal. It is possible to make progress here but it still has to be done. Every day that we do not have a European agreement on migration and asylum makes us vulnerable. It destroys trust between member states. You could see this was something that Lukashenko tried to use when he said he tried to sell tickets to the European Union, but, of course, it is not for him to sell. However, he used human beings in a dangerous way.

It is important that we find an agreement and show that we can compromise on migration. It is not the only issue where the member states of the European Union have some diverging experience and views. If we treat it in a sober way, however, we may be able to find the right compromise. Without a compromise on migration and asylum, and a common policy, it is clear that those who will suffer are migrants and refugees. This is important.

I applaud Ireland for showing solidarity. Ireland is an important ally in upholding fundamental rights, humanitarian values and European values. This is important in these times we are living in.

One reason I wanted this portfolio is that it scares me when I hear political leaders or others talking about migrants as if they were not human beings. Talking about people and migration is nothing to be afraid of. Migration is something to manage, and sometimes there are challenges. Sometimes these challenges are big but, of course, they are manageable. They are nothing to scare each other with.

I have learned about Ireland's recent initiative to regularise undocumented migrants here. The committee does not know, I guess, how many that will be, but I understand it could be up to 17,000 people. This is the right step to take. We have seen it also in other member states, but I think this is a bold step. I applaud this initiative because it is a really good one.

Ireland also usually takes part in resettlement on a high level. It took part in relocation, helping vulnerable children from the Greek islands, and the search and rescue of victims from Malta and Italy. This is really great.

Another part of my pact is that I proposed to set up community sponsored resettlement schemes. That is inspired by Ireland because you already have this. This is a good way of welcoming people into local communities. This has been one of the inspirations for the proposal I have put forward in the pact.

Of course, I do not need to tell the Irish Parliament that migration is normal. It is worth repeating, however, that migration is normal. To give the committee some figures, in a normal year in the European Union, 3 million people will get residence permits. Most of them come because they are falling in love with a European citizen, to work here, do research or, of course, study. Some of them also come for international protection, but that is a smaller part. Each year, approximately 1 million or 1.5 million European citizens move to a third country, mostly because they have fallen in love with a person from such a country or to work there, study or research. This is normal, but every year the European Union is growing by 1 million people or 1.5 million people. We need that. Ours is an ageing society and we need migration.

The most part of the migration, I should say, is managed quite well by us already.

However, we do not manage the irregular arrivals well enough. We need fewer irregular arrivals and they must be better registered and have access to a fair asylum process. We also need to invest more in legal pathways both for those who come here for economic reasons, that is, to work here and also for refugees on resettlement. We have made some significant progress already. The blue card was adopted last year. It had been blocked since 2015. The new EU asylum agency was also adopted last year. Its functions began two weeks ago. That was also a file that had been blocked for many years. We have started to use the so-called "blueprint" proposal that is already ongoing when it comes to Belarus and Afghanistan, for example.

The French Presidency has really put a new momentum into negotiations on the pact. Last week we had an informal Council in Lille attended by President Macron. That was a really strong signal from the French Presidency that it would really like to move forward now. President Macron had a very inspiring speech on migration. It really showed this pragmatic approach to how we can manage migration together. The French Presidency is now putting on the table three perspectives on the pact.

The first is the external dimension. I think everybody realises it is not possible to manage migration in the EU without working with third countries, be they countries of origin or countries of transit. This was very clear when we saw the situation and the attacks from Lukashenko towards the European Union where he used human beings. Only looking at how to protect our external borders will not work. The moment we started to have some progress was when we managed to reach out to the international community, third countries and airline companies to stop the inflow of people and stop people being tricked and lured into this dangerous situation. Iraq, for example, stepped up. It has voluntarily evacuated more than 5,000 people from Belarus. That was the moment when we managed a de-escalation. I do not need to tell the committee that building walls and barbed-wire fences is not the way to manage migration. It is not the way forward for the EU. Our destiny lies together with other countries, including countries of origin and transit. This is really important. That is why I put a lot of emphasis on that in my work. I can tell members more on that. I am going directly from here to Senegal and Niger because these are important countries of both origin and transit, such as for the smuggling that goes through Libya, for example, and so it is important to work together with them.

The second part is to ensure people are being properly registered at the border if they arrive irregularly. This is not working well today. Last year, around 25% of those arriving irregularly were not registered at all. That is a huge risk. We can, for example, see children go missing and we do not really know. Sometimes there are unaccompanied minors. If they are not registered they will not have a guardian. They will not be properly protected. It is the same for other vulnerable groups. It is really important people are registered. It is also important we have the screening to see what kind of people are coming. Do they have some specific needs? We also need to ensure we can have a swift process for those not in need of international protection. The return rate is, I should say, quite low. We could really step up the return of those not eligible to stay but the longer you have stayed in a country the more difficult that is because then you have part of society and it is really difficult to return. That is why it is important to have a swift process and you also need the screening for that reason and to make sure people have access to the asylum process. That are some voices now in the Council saying people arriving irregularly should not have access to the asylum process. I would be very much against that approach. We must stand up for fundamental rights and defend the Geneva Convention.

The Geneva Convention turned 70 last year. Of course the EU should uphold its values and practice.

Finally, there is solidarity. For the most part those who arrive irregularly come to certain member states. Therefore we need solidarity so that when there are many arrivals the other member states need to step up. I have proposed a mandatory solidarity mechanism and now the French Presidency is developing this. It is saying that member states should help other member states which are under pressure both with relocation and also helping with returns. Cyprus, for example, is in this situation. Belgium has helped Cyprus return people to Congo for example. They should also help by financial means to prevent people from going on these dangerous journeys across the Mediterranean or the Atlantic routes. They could, for example, invest in opportunities in Tunisia but also in better equipment for border protection in countries like that.

I am happy to answer any questions. There are two different kinds of narrative on migration. It is important to stress the narrative that migration is normal, has always been there and will always be there. Of course it can be a challenge but we can manage that. However, it is nothing to be afraid of. Do not panic; stay sober. We can manage this especially if we work together and if we work with third countries and of course we should not be afraid of migrants. We have to remember that migrants are people like all of us who have the same kinds of feelings. Even if they do not always have the right to stay in the EU they are still human beings and human beings have to be treated according to their rights and dignity.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. Before I go to the members, I ask her to return to her second point about the French Presidency. She broke the policy into three points. The first was registration and she gave a statistic on the second point which I missed; it related to registration.

Ms Ylva Johansson

Last year Frontex assessed that 25% of those arriving irregularly, 45,000 people, were not registered in the EU fingerprint database, EURODAC. That is just an estimate but it is a vulnerability that we cannot afford.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I thank the Commissioner for coming to Dublin for such a frank exchange. I have four follow-up questions. They are different but some are related. Ms Johansson concluded by speaking of the need to address the narratives. How do we tackle the misinformation and veiled xenophobia out there around migration particularly on social media? We saw it in the Brexit referendum in the UK when people were abusing misplaced fears. We see it in this country as well. Ms Johansson spoke very openly and clearly on that but others do not always do that. How can the Commission but, more important, member states and their parliamentarians of all shades, address that?

The Commissioner mentioned third-party partnerships and referred to Iraq, Senegal and Niger. She also mentioned Libya. That has been identified as a gateway for illegal migration into the EU for a long time. It has been the source of much of the piracy that we saw in the Mediterranean a couple of years ago. What progress has been made with those third countries to identify where we can address the issues?

My third question is more general. It relates to the pact on migration and asylum and how we can ensure it is flexible and weatherproof in light of shifting geopolitical patterns. Since Ms Johansson took office as European Commissioner, the Taliban has taken back control in Afghanistan, there is civil war in the Tigray region of Ethiopia and there are many conflicts. It will be ever thus. There are also escalating tensions on the eastern border of Europe, with the events in Belarus, Ukraine and beyond. How flexible is EU policy on migration to deal with these ever-changing challenges?

My final point is a political one but we are politicians. Ms Johansson repeatedly mentioned the importance of upholding European values. As European Commissioner for Home Affairs, how does she believe we should seek to uphold European values when there are consistent flagrant breaches of European values by member states, not to mention by countries where people are trying to flee persecution?

Ms Ylva Johansson

They were good questions. On how to address xenophobia, we have to be honest here. Political leaders are, for populist reasons, trying to threaten citizens with the prospect of migrants. The simple answer is that the Deputy and I - politicians - have the responsibility. I would like to see more people speaking up. This narrative of migration is normal. We sometimes hear a suggestion in the debate that we can stop migration. We cannot stop migration and it would be a disaster if we did so because we need it. Rather, it is a question of how to manage migration.

I can understand the reaction of people living in Lithuania, for example, whereby when Lukashenko sends people over the border, they used to receive 40 migrants a year into their country and suddenly they are receiving 4,000. Of course, the citizens will be a bit nervous about how to handle that. The same is true of people living in Lampedusa, where boats of migrants are arriving almost daily. We need to help local communities and member states to manage the issue, but politicians will have to speak up. We are living in a time when that is important. Sometimes how we talk about people is a slippery slope, and we should always be very careful not to dehumanise people when we talk about them. That is always dangerous.

On the question related to third countries, I have spent a lot of time on this. As we saw when we reached out to work with Tunisia, the Tunisian coastguard is now conducting twice as many search-and-rescue operations in its waters. Many people, therefore, are being prevented from going out on the dangerous routes. We are also investing in the return of Tunisians and their reintegration, but still we see an increase in the number of Tunisians coming because of the pandemic and the recent collapse of tourism industry in that country. That, of course, left many young people without a job. If we are to manage migration, we have also to examine the root causes.

I recently visited Libya, which should have held elections at Christmas but did not. It is in a vulnerable position. We have been addressing the terrible conditions in the refugee camps there. Last week, a special proposal was made in respect of vulnerable people, children and families and this is a good step. The European Union is evacuating refugees, together with the UN, from Libya to a centre in Niger, which I will visit next week. From there, we resettle them to EU member states. That is one way to provide a legal pathway for refugees. In respect of non-refugee migrants who are stuck in the conflict in Libya, we are working with the African Union and the UN to return them voluntarily and reintegrate them in their countries of origin in order that they can return to their countries if they have found themselves in a dangerous position in Libya. There are different ways of working with them. Egypt, for example, is doing a lot to prevent irregular departures but it too needs investment.

Most of these countries, especially the likes of Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt, need to say to their young people that there are other, legal, ways to go to the European Union. We should be investing in talent partnerships. We need member states to step up and say, for example, that they are going to need 200 people in a certain sector. We can then offer to set up a scheme with a specific country and educate people and give them vocational training, or teach them the language if necessary, in order that they can take up these kinds of jobs. That is what the governments in these countries need to say to their young people. They need to know that there are other ways to come to the European Union besides risking their lives and spending all their money on smugglers.

If the pact is adopted we should be much better prepared. Right now we are relying very much on ad hoc solutions. One of the principles of the pact is that we should not just protect our external borders but also work with third countries. Afghanistan is one example of that. When the refugee crisis in Syria happened, the European Union started to act in 2015 when desperate people were standing on our soil. Members will remember the pictures of people coming. However, that war started in 2011. With Afghanistan, we took another approach. We reached out immediately to Afghanistan to try to help avoid a humanitarian crisis. It has still been not avoided and there are a lot of dangerous situations in Afghanistan. We also reached out to member states to tell them to step up evacuations and resettlements from Afghanistan. Member states have resettled or evacuated 22,000 Afghans in need of international protection. All member states took part in that and they have pledged for this year to take another 38,000. That is quite an impressive part of solidarity. That figure includes many women's rights defenders, fundamental rights defenders, journalists, judges and people who are in danger under the Taliban regime. We will be much more prepared now.

There are member states that are violating fundamental rights. As a Commission, we are the guardians of the treaty. We can go for infringement procedures but to be honest, when it is the practice rather than the law that is allegedly not in line, it is very difficult for the Commission because we do not have any investigative powers. What I have proposed in the pact is that all member states should have an independent monitoring mechanism on what is going on at their borders in order to ensure that pushbacks are not taking place.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I thank the Commissioner for coming here today and outlining the details of the pact on migration and asylum. I thank her for her kinds comments about Ireland and the solidarity Ireland, like many other member states, has shown. We appreciate the solidarity the European Commission and the European Union generally have shown Ireland in relation to Brexit and the Northern Ireland protocol and so forth. We are all working together on that.

"Solidarity" is the new word emerging from this pact. Are quotas off the agenda? I ask Ms Johansson to clarify the position on that. There was some pushback against that when the Commission brought forward the initial proposal. Is the Dublin regulation gone, as we speak here this morning? It will obviously be reformed in the context of this pact. I note what Ms Johansson said about the pushback in respect of Belarus. We have heard stories about the position of Greece and the pushing back of refugees and migrants and so forth. It is a big issue. Weaponising refugees in this way cannot be tolerated. That is just a comment.

I have a question about security and climate change.

When Ireland held the presidency of the United Nations Security Council for a month in November we pushed the issue of linking climate change to security given how extreme weather events and the scarcity of resources caused by climate change can result in a refugee crisis. Is that something the Commission is conscious that we would need to consider and deal with in the future? Is there an understanding of the concern that climate change will very much add to the problem of refugees?

I know it is very difficult to predict what will happen in the future. If the pact on migration and asylum is implemented, we hope that the numbers will go down, but I have a statistic here from 2020 which indicates that there were 26.4 million externally displaced people in the world. It is quite daunting when you think about it. In the Commissioner's view, will the situation get worse rather than better? We hope not, but looking at the facts of the situation it appears that it will be a difficult challenge going forward.

The final issue I wish to raise concerns Frontex. What is the Commissioner's understanding of it? What is its role and what is it doing? Ireland always brings a humanitarian perspective to this issue and, judging by her contribution, so does the Commissioner. Should Frontex be investigated further? What does the Commissioner see as its role and function? Does it have a humanitarian role or is it purely to keep refugees and migrants out of fortress Europe?

Ms Ylva Johansson

First, we should not have a fortress Europe. That is what I am fighting for. I think we are on the same side.

In my proposal, there are no quotas. My proposal for solidarity says that member states should contribute according to their size and strength, but not based on quotas. Relocation is one part, but it could also be by helping other countries with returns or by financial means, especially to help third countries to prevent the departures. As to why I do not have any quotas in my proposal, first, it did not fly, but the more pragmatic reason is that in 2015 we had more or less 2 million refugees coming. Of course, quota was the most important answer to that. Today, the majority of those arriving irregularly are not refugees, they are coming for other reasons. This means that quotas are not always the proper answer. It might be a contradiction to that. That is why we also need to invest in legal pathways to prevent it and to fight smugglers responsible for the arrival of people not in need of international protection.

There is a quota to say member states should contribute to solidarity according to their size and strength but not quotas for relocation. We do not know the position of Parliament yet, but it might come from that point, but there are very few member states arguing for quotas. There are member states arguing in line with my proposal that we need to have a pre-committed pool for relocation. Those member states that do relocation do not necessarily need to do other kinds of solidarity, but those members states that do not do relocation have to do other kinds of solidarity, like paying in proportion to that so that there will be a fair sharing of the burden among member states when it comes to solidarity.

The Dublin Convention is still there. It has not been working very well during the pandemic because many member states said there was a need to have a PCR test and if people did not want to have a PCR test then we could not do the returns.

The Dublin Protocol is not a good system for today. I propose to reform it. For instance, not all those arriving in Italy should be processed by Italy if they have a link to another member state. If they have relatives or had, say, been studying in Dublin, then that member state should be responsible for the processing of their asylum application. I also have proposed the solidarity mechanism so that if large numbers of people arrive, then we would distribute them.

Greece has been a concern. There are reliable reports not only about push-back but also on deportation of people. That is something I have raised nearly monthly with the Greek Government. It has responded by giving a transparency authority the special task of investigating these allegations. I will follow this very closely. I think it is necessary for member states to clean up what they are doing to ensure they comply with the fundamental rights and their own legislation. I will continue to follow that.

Climate change is a huge challenge for many reasons. That is why it is at the top of the agenda. It will cause a lot of migration and internally displaced people. It is like the figures that were mentioned. A huge majority of refugees are in neighbouring countries. They are not coming to Europe. That is why our solidarity is so important with countries that are hosting a lot of refugees. We should be a role model in how we do resettlement and how we act at our external border to uphold the right to apply for asylum and to uphold the Geneva Convention. If the rich European Union cannot do that, how can we ask poorer countries to do that for refugees who are coming to their country? We should look at ourselves in the mirror and show some global leadership here in how we treat migrants.

There were accusations that Frontex was taking part in push-backs. I was really upset about that. It has been thoroughly investigated and there is no proof of Frontex taking part in any push-back. That should be the normal thing because an EU agency can never, ever take part in illegal activities. I was a bit disappointed that Frontex itself could not answer this properly quickly enough. Parliament set up a management board and others have to act. Now, Frontex finally has in place a fundamental rights officer and fundamental rights monitors and there is much more focus on these issues. We recently recruited three deputy executive directors to Frontex. I will go there in two weeks to meet with its governance and management. I feel more comfortable that Frontex is better equipped to protect our borders in line with our values of fundamental rights.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I thank the Commissioner for coming here. I think we are all agreed that migration is a way of life. It is a necessity. A significant proportion of refugees are not necessarily asylum seekers who are coming into Ireland. To an extent, migration is our living with the disaster of geopolitical decisions made by large powers, particularly the USA and Britain, such as in Libya and Afghanistan. Deputy Haughey is right. Will Ms Johansson give us more of a profile of those who are coming in and how much of a factor climate change is becoming?

The migrant crisis goes out of people's minds in Ireland from time to time until something happens like what Lukashenko did recently in Belarus or like those really brutal scenes at various border crossings that we witnessed back in 2015. Beyond that, there has been uneasiness around Frontex because some of the stories we have heard are worrying. I am glad that the Commissioner is engaging directly with them.

The Commissioner referred to the necessity of dealing with third countries in the context of trying to get to a better place, which makes sense. If conditions are better in third countries and we are not dealing with disasters, then all of this can be regulated to a greater degree. However, there are serious concerns in respect of Libya, migrant prisons and what appear to be serious breaches of human rights. Where does the European Commission stand on that? I accept that sometimes we are dealing with regimes that do not necessarily adhere to the same rules and regulations, but we must use our leverage to the best of our ability in order to make sure that there are no human rights abuses.

My colleague referred to the rule-of-law issues that we have in this country and breaches of same. I would probably go beyond that, but perhaps that is a discussion for a different day. Across the entirety of Europe, there have been failings and they have not necessarily been called out at EU level.

The Commissioner spoke about a new pact for migration and asylum. What does mandatory solidarity actually look like? What could it look like, given that we are not talking about quotas? I accept that different times, places and conditions will need different answers, but are we in a situation where we will be able to improve screening, speed up processing and so on? The Commissioner stated that there is an issue with registration and that the return rate in some cases is not particularly high. We have had issues here with direct provision whereby people are living here for years in really bad conditions. They have built a life, albeit imperfect, within this State. What are the conditions under which someone would be sent back? I accept that people will come in from time to time who are not being honest, and we want people to be absolutely truthful. Sometimes we are dealing with those who are incredibly frightened and who are fleeing really dangerous situations.

Ms Ylva Johansson

We have not yet seen any effect from climate change on the movement of migrants or refugees towards the EU. It could come, but it is mainly affecting other parts of the world so far.

I do not have the figures in front of me on irregular arrivals to the EU but I know that we have a lot of Bangladeshis, Syrians, Tunisians, Moroccans, people from Sahel and some from the Horn of Africa, although not as many as expected. We also have some Afghans. Afghans who are already in the EU and who had negative asylum decisions are applying again because of the change in circumstances and the 22,000 that were evacuated have also applied for asylum. We have a high number of asylum applications from Afghanistan but not so many irregular arrivals. Many of them are already here or are coming to the EU legally. We have quite a high number of asylum applications from Venezuela and Latin America and those people are coming on flights. They are not coming irregularly. We also have quite a high number of Georgian people who have a low recognition rate. Some people come legally into the EU and then apply for asylum. We have many more asylum applications than we have irregular arrivals.

On the returns, it is important that if we want to have a functioning return system we have to have a swift decision. It is not fair to have people stay for years, in limbo, and then have a return decision, because it will not work. It would not be fair to do that. That is why I propose a swifter reaction. Almost 2,000 people died in the Mediterranean last year, many of them have been leaving from Tunisia. Just to take Tunisia as an example, almost none of them are refugees. They are people, especially young people, trying to find a better life. If they manage to get to the Italian coast, because that is where most of them go, and if they are returned quickly, that would have the effect of fewer people going on these trips. Therefore, a swift return could be a good answer. We have the same with people from Morocco crossing the Atlantic route towards the Canary Islands. Most Moroccans will not be given international protection. A huge majority will have a negative result. If they were returned more quickly, that would have an effect of fewer people paying smugglers and going out on these dangerous routes. That, of course, has to be combined with reintegration measures and other opportunities. Swift returns could also be a good signal that this is not the way to come to the European Union, but it has to go hand in hand with legal pathways.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

You would need to put a huge effort into legal pathways. Some of that is about training options. It is something that needs serious conversations with third countries.

Ms Ylva Johansson

Yes, and serious conversations with member states. It is down to the sovereignty of member states to decide how many people they would like to welcome. We have been focusing on quotas and resettlement and it is still extremely important the European Union plays its part. However, it is also important, especially with the demographic situation we have, that we welcome people to come and work here. I need member states to step up and to say, yes, they are going to need 2,000 people in an particular area. For example, in the care sector, we have shortages of labour and it is not highly skilled labour.

In regard to mandatory solidarity, in my proposal there is, first, voluntary solidarity where member states should step up and help the member state that is under pressure. If that is not enough, it is a possibility in my legislation to make it mandatory. Then there will be decisions for each member state in regard to how much it needs to contribute. Member states can choose what kind of baskets they will contribute to, whether it is relocation, returns or money for capacity-building. Capacity-building could be in a member state for reception facilities but it could also be in a third country for capacity to manage migration there. A country could contribute in all three also. That is how we put it at the end of the day, say, if members states are not doing enough. The French now are trying to start with the solidarity and see how far they can come with the practice, without the legislation in place.

The last point on the rule of law was really important. This is core issue for the European Union right now. The rule of law is the basis for everything. It is the basis for trust between member states. Without upholding the rule of law everything else will be vulnerable and difficult to make progress on. This is the core thing. We now have these cases in Poland and in Hungary. It is in Poland that we must be strong enough to make them comply. I refer to the opposition in Poland. It is really difficult if there is no trust and if the law can be changed and if the judges are not independent. How can we manage to set up a system that can be trusted in the European Union and which is core to our values? That is the basis.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

One of the questions I asked was on the difficulties of dealing with third parties. I used the example of the migrant prisons in Libya.

We are dealing with regimes. There are some solutions that might suit the European Union in some sense with regard to stopping the inflow. What is going on is absolutely abhorrent. How can we use leverage to deal with this?

Ms Ylva Johansson

It is difficult but we can do so. We work together with UN organisations, especially with the UNHCR but also the International Organization for Migration. As I have said, we are evacuating refugees from the camps, for example to Niger, and we are doing resettlement in member states. We need member states to be willing to resettle people. Together with the African Union we are evacuating migrants voluntarily to their countries of origin. We are trying to set up more standards for the refugee camps. People are being tortured and raped there. This is what needs to be stopped. We need access for the international Red Cross and the UNHCR. These are the issues I raised with the Prime Minister when I was in Libya. We have been making some progress but the overall issue with Libya is, of course, to have a proper government in place and avoid the conflict blowing up again. Otherwise it will be extremely difficult.

Chairman

As Deputy Richmond said, I thank the Commissioner for her openness and frankness and her comprehensive overview of an area that is very difficult and challenging but is not new. When we speak about registration and going through a proper process as an Irish citizen it is hard at times not to think of Irish migration to the United States. We still have a lot of people in the United States who are undocumented. I can totally understand what the Commissioner is saying. If a proper process is not there at the beginning people can get locked into a very difficult situation. A few people from my county have been undocumented in the United States for two decades. They have missed out on family funerals. They have not been home. Their children have been home and met their grandparents in Ireland. When they returned to the United States they started asking their parents questions as to why they do not go home. They asked them whether they have done something wrong or if there is something they have not told them about why they have not returned to Ireland in 20 years. The point the Commissioner made about the process and people getting trapped is something with which we are very familiar with regard to Irish citizens. It is a small percentage but there are people who have not been regularised in the United States. It is a very interesting conversation.

I am interested to hear the Commissioner's opinion on the challenge in Africa, particularly in the Horn of Africa. I remember going to a refugee camp in Uganda back in 2016. In the camp I went to there were 500,000 refugees, primarily women and children from South Sudan. The number of refugees in Uganda is now 1.4 million. The Commissioner spoke about proximity and the countries closest to refugee camps. Sudan has many refugees but many of the South Sudanese refugees are in Uganda. With regard to the magnitude of the challenge and the capacity that needs to be built in the Horn of Africa there has been a great move by the French Presidency, which the Commissioner referenced, that this is not an issue that needs to be dealt with within the EU but that it is wider than this.

With regard to the capacity building, enabling process and signposting that needs to be done, a representative of the UNHCR will come before the committee after this meeting. It has been doing a lot of work since 1950. In terms of the scale and the magnitude of the numbers in refugee camps throughout Africa, I would like to hear the Commissioner's opinion specifically on education. In a previous life she was a teacher before she got into politics. Within the camps there is a big focus on education. I remember being in a camp in Jordan of mainly Syrian refugees. I met a number of great people working very much on education.

However, they did not have the resources that they really needed in that regard. I would be interested in hearing the Commissioner's opinion on education, empowerment and the population increase in Africa.

Ms Ylva Johansson

I thank the Chair. Regularisation is important. That is why I praise the leadership and solidarity that is shown in the initiative from Ireland right now to regularise people who have been living undocumented. This is the right step to take. I think it was last year when we saw the same from Italy, where there is quite a high number. This is important, because people cannot live like that, namely, being undocumented. They are very vulnerable. They are being used by employers and are operating in terrible working conditions, etc.

I have a good relationship with the United States Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, who is from a refugee background. He is now in charge and is dealing with this issue in the US. There, migration is cause of political tension and there are difficulties in getting it through the Congress. However, this is high up on their agenda, especially when it comes to young people. This is important. The regularising of migrants is, to it make clear, a totally national competence and not an EU competence. As a result, while I can say that this is good and while I can encourage it, I have no real power in that area.

On what to do with this broader aspect, I like the Chair's approach to seeing this broader picture, which is how we have to deal with it. I will give the Chair a few examples of what we can do. For example, in the new multi-annual financial framework, MFF, budget for the seven-year period, of all of the money that goes to a third country under the neighbourhood, development and international co-operation instrument, NDICI - it is impossible to say that word - at least 10% of the overall financial envelope that we have for each country must go towards managing migration. This is a huge step forward in making migration normal and in realising that almost all of our partner countries are dealing with migration in one way or another. This is part of the programming that we are now setting up in each of our partner countries.

Commissioner Jutta Urpilainen, who is responsible for Africa and for development aid, is committed to education. This is the way forward. I visited a school in Ethiopia that was funded by EU funds for refugee children. It is important. The Chair spoke about UNHCR, and he will be hearing from it about all of that. This is so that we have this global view and so that we do not only look at the European Union and focus on our external border. That is not the way to manage migration and, truly, it is not the European way to manage migration. We have to do it together. We have to realise that migration is ongoing everywhere and we have to be part of that. It is also important that we look ourselves in the mirror and show some leadership on how we act on migration. Of course, we cannot solve everything, but we can help. Empowerment and education are particularly a part of that, as is making sure that children who grow up as refugees, or those who are internally displaced, will have the best possible way forward, so that this generation will not be lost, just because their parents had to flee to another country.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. If members want to come back in, we still have a few minutes. I have one final question, and I encourage the Commissioner not to be shy about it when she is grappling for an answer. What can we, as a committee, do to help the Commissioner in her work, to help the pact and to help to progress the ambitious plan of the French Presidency under President Macron? What can we do to help this good work?

Ms Ylva Johansson

The committee should brag about what it is doing. It should show that Ireland can manage. Ireland is taking a bold step with this regularisation and it should be proud of that. It should make it visible. It should argue that, of course, this is the Irish decision.

Ireland can manage to do it. It is already involved in resettlement and relocation. It has been a role model in regard to community-sponsored resettlement. There are a lot of positive stories from local communities all over Ireland where people are being welcomed and are part of society. For the balance of the discussion on migration in Europe, there is too much of the "They're coming", "We should be afraid" and "We have to protect ourselves." We are talking about human beings. We need to manage it but panic will not help us. We need a sober approach. Ireland should brag a little.

Chairman

I am not sure where the word "brag" originated. It may be Scandinavian or, perhaps, it is Irish, dating back 3,000 years, but following on from Ms Johansson's use of the word, there has been a large positive response from members wanting to come back in again.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I thank the Commissioner for her remarks. Ireland is geographically removed from many of these issues and that is why solidarity is so important. I am pleased with the Commissioner's compliments about the Irish situation and the new programme for regularisation.

The Commissioner mentioned that we need migration and that it is a good thing. As our economy and our society is opening up following the pandemic, as in many other economies and societies it is becoming apparent that we cannot get sufficient employees in many sectors. In the past ten days or so, this has materialised in the hospitality and elder care sectors. Is this something the Commissioner is conscious of? The lack of availability of workers in various sectors is going to become a big issue. We need to be proactive. This is, perhaps, a matter for the nation states individually, but is it something that is on the Commissioner's radar specifically in the context of the pandemic? Many people have left these sectors to retrain in other sectors. We are going to face a serious issue in tourism and so forth. Is this something the Commissioner is conscious of throughout the European Union?

Ms Ylva Johansson

Yes, it is. I am preparing legislative proposal initiatives on legal migration, which will be ready at the end of April, to make it easier for people to apply for a single permit or a long-term residence permit in the European Union. I am also working on a proposal on what is called the "talent partnership". It is about setting up a talent pool to help people to come to the European Union to work. We can use some of the EU funds to help to prepare people to come, to ensure they have the proper training before they come, or after, to facilitate this in a smooth way. We cannot overestimate how much it means to partner countries when there are possibilities for young people to come if they invest in a special education such for work in elderly care or the hospitality sector. The training necessary is not that lengthy. It is doable to do that and to select the right people to come.

This year is the European Year of Youth. Globally, young people have suffered the most from the pandemic. You are only 20 once, but you are 50 forever. Young people have really suffered, not only in Ireland but across partner countries. We need an exchange programme for youth, which would provide opportunities for them to have new experiences such as to learn a new language and to see new places. That is what people like to do when they are young. We should not leave them with the only opportunity being to gather money to pay to the smugglers and risk their lives.

We should offer these kind of opportunities. It will mean a lot, for young people in particular, in many of our partner countries to have another opportunity to come to the European Union in a safe and legal way.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

I would agree with the previous point that as many legal roadmaps as possible would be good. We all have to have a straight conversation around where demographics sit at present in Europe. Conversations are happening even on pensions and whatever and it is not funny. I was going to say earlier that it was funny that Ms Johansson mentioned the home care scenario because the Committee on Health is dealing the issue at the moment. In this State, you cannot get not enough people to work and there are families that are missing out on weekend care, in particular, just because the people are not there to do the job. The fact is that this is the way of the world. Migration is just a fact of life. It is a necessity, if we get serious about it. We all need to do an expansive piece of work on that.

I would like to go back to the community-sponsored resettlement scenario. As was noted earlier, we are sometimes well removed from where the major migration pressure points are. I get the idea that there have been a number of very impressive projects that have been carried out and a huge amount of community engagement. On some level, that fear factor is lessened with pre-engagement. It is nearly always better if it comes from the community because it can sometimes be more trusted than when coming from the State. However, it is how one would propose it. The Commissioner talked about places with numbers far more significant than what we are dealing with, probably even on a per capita basis. What exactly will that look like and how will that be facilitated and implemented? I accept that it is a very good idea.

Ms Ylva Johansson

From the EU and European Commission side, we can help with funding and can facilitate. As it is a member state competence, it is still necessary for the member states to say how many people they will welcome and I cannot do that. We do this ordinary resettlement, where we are co-ordinating, funding and facilitating, and now I would also include that kind of community-sponsored resettlement scheme.

It is also important to show because not all member states have so much experience. Some of the member states have been transit countries. They really need to step up. For example, Greece needs to step up on integration and how to do that. Countries such as Ireland have experience and so can help with how to do that and welcome people. A person never integrates into a state; a person integrates into a local community. That is the way it is.

I set up an expert group that gives me advice with migrants. They are people who migrant backgrounds who I talk to regularly. They always stress that while it is important that people have the right to apply for asylum and have the possibility to come, one should not forget integration. The kind of life people are being welcomed to is also important. Being part of society and being part of "us" and not being "them" is important.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú

It is absolutely vital. What sort of numbers or percentages or whatever are we looking at? Would this be aimed specifically at dealing with disaster situations and an influx from an Afghanistan-type scenario, or should this be built this into the regularised system? What percentage of people would be going through this? The State still has to make a determination on the numbers it is taking in. That is one thing. Beyond that, we probably need people to volunteer from within the community or whatever, even though there will be facilitation and funding, etc.

Ms Ylva Johansson

I hope I understand the Deputy's question correctly. To give him some figures, last year we had 200,000 irregular arrivals to the EU, which was a bit higher than the year before, but of course, there was the pandemic. The number of asylum seekers is much higher because people apply for it again and again or go to different countries.

This year member states pledged to do resettlement and evacuation up to almost 60,000 Afghans. I had money for 30,000 so it was a good challenge for me to try to manage that, because it is quite a number. Especially with the Afghans, you should not wait until they are outside Afghanistan because it is difficult for them to evacuate. We also need resettlement from all of the UNHCR camps. We cannot only focus on the last crisis. This is important to ongoing resettlement. We have ongoing resettlement of Syrians from Turkey. We have ongoing resettlement of refugees from Libya. It is important, and I think the UNHCR would tell members also, that we should not focus only on the last crisis. It must be ongoing because so many refugees are in camps all over the world and we need to be there and take our share in the EU.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner very much for her time, words of wisdom and advice. We are far too modest a committee to follow the bragging route but it will certainly-----

Ms Ylva Johansson

Be proud. Be vocal.

Chairman

We will certainly stay in touch and stay engaged on this issue because it is something the committee is very eager to work together on. If we manage to get over to mainland Europe and Brussels at some stage maybe there could be some follow-up suggestions with different people or colleagues of the Commissioner, as we want to have a bit of continuity on this issue. We are keeping an eye out for the EU-African summit as well. We are willing and eager. We are conscious it is a really important issue.

Emigration is part of who we are as Irish people, whether it is Irish people in the USA, Chile, Brazil, Australia or China. Once I start naming countries I must talk about all the Donegal emigrants in Stockholm in the Commissioner's own country who are being well looked-after and working hard over there as well. It is part of who we are. We are very much in touch with the dignity issue and ensuring people have that dignity. Without dignity people do not have freedom. Those are not my words but the famous words of Columbanus from a long time ago. He left Bangor in County Down and headed for Rome. He made it as far as Bobbio in Italy. If you are ever in Bobbio, there is an inscription in Latin that says that if you take away a person's dignity you take away their freedom. Those words are part of the Irish DNA. We understand and want to help. We really appreciate the Commissioner and her colleagues coming here to be with us. It is to be hoped this is the first of many steps in working on this issue. Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe agus guím gach rath orthu leis an obair dhíograiseach thábhachtach. That means their important and dedicated work. We look forward to catching up again.

Ms Ylva Johansson

I thank the Chairman. I welcome continuing the dialogue whenever the committee wants.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner.

Sitting suspended at 11.19 a.m. and resumed at 11.54 a.m.