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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 29 Sep 1993

SECTION 34.

Amendments Nos. 50 and 54 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Agreed.

I move amendment No. 50:

In page 26, between line 23 and 24, to insert "and all speed limits shall be referred to in kilometers per hour'. . ."

It has been a source of some confusion to people in this country, and especially to visitors, that we signal the distance between towns and various destinations in kilometres and yet our speed limits are signalled in miles per hour. How much longer is the Minister going to tolerate this anomaly? Whether or not it contributes to people breaking the law through confusion, wondering whether it is actually miles per hour or kilometres per hour in cases signalled and signposted, there is an excellent case for rationalising the sign-posting on our roads. This would mean having distance signs and speed limit signs all in kilometers per hour. It appears so self-evident that the confusion in this area should be eliminated that I do not propose to waste the time of the House much longer.

I support this amendment. It is not a contentious part of the Bill but I believe there is a schizophrenic aspect to the issue in having distances in kilometres and speeds in miles per hour. It is a little like the way the metric system has been introduced where we still calculate in feet and inches. We overcame the decimal conversion of money without too much difficulty.

Perhaps for people of our generation speed limits in kilometres per hour may cause confusion. However, for those who are, say, ten years behind us in school and who have the metric system it must seem a little peculiar to have speed limit signs in miles per hour. In view of this it would be a sensible amendment to accept and introduce, perhaps over a phased basis, changes in the signs.

Members of my family are dividing by eight and multiplying by five to make me think in terms of miles instead of kilometres. The signs do cause confusion as between miles and kilometres, especially beyond one's own area. While I do not wish to see the old traditions removed under the influence of the EC, perhaps alongside the speed limits in miles per hour the signs would also indicate kilometres per hour. The old signs should be left in people's local areas but for tourists and so on the signs between towns should be clearly indicated in kilometres.

For a Deputy who represents a constituency where, from time to time——

Indeed, I agree with the Minister.

——certain claims are made about how economically people in that part of the country can run their business, the Deputy turns out to be quite an expensive public representative in terms of demands to not only——

What demands have I made? The Minister should specify any demand I have made that has been outrageous or expensive.

Deputy Doyle looked for the ideal world. I agree. It is perfectly right that we should aim to achieve this but Deputy Boylan wants the ideal world plus——

(Interruptions.)

I take it that the Deputy will be telling his local community that he wants more taxes and more taxes to be imposed on them in order to finance those demands.

Do not let him rise you.

In July 1992 I introduced a comprehensive new structure for speed limits. I did this because of the unsatisfactory nature of the observance of the existing limits. I decided that a more realistic structure, which took full account of safety and environmental considerations, should be introduced. This new structure brings us more into line with the position in the rest of the European Community. At that time I considered carefully the question of metrication. I felt, however, that to have provided for metrication in association with the introduction of new speed limits would have led to confusion for motorists. It is still my aim to achieve the more desirable and ideal end but this would have financial implications. While it is proposed to achieve this on a phased basis. Deputies will appreciate that it would be more desirable to reach the stage where considerable planning has been done and considerable resources have been provided to achieve this desirable end almost throughout the whole country at the same time. From a safety point of view, we have to aim to do this. This requires very considerable resources and planning. I wish to tell the committee that it is my aim to achieve this and, to the extent that I can move in this direction, I will do so.

Is the Minister accepting my amendment?

The principle enshrined in the amendment is perfectly acceptable but the amendment itself is not. To accept it I would have to be in a position to meet the requirements straightaway and I will not be dishonest by claiming that I can do so.

Does the Minister need any specific legislative sanction to implement what is requested in the amendment?

Perhaps the amendment will indicate to the Minister that some of us feel particularly strongly about the confusion that exists on our roads at the moment. I honestly think this is a contributory cause of accidents. When trying to calculate distance one has to switch from kilometres per hour to miles per hour. Even if one assumes the length of time it takes to travel from one town to another one looks at a sign and sees 60, one is thinking in kilometres.

Deputy Boylan knows the exact way of doing it.

One has two signs for every place.

The Boylan formula.

Deputy Boylan is using a multiplier and a divider but his contributions never have a divider but only multipliers.

In what year did we go metric and convert to kilometres per hour for distance signs?

We started in 1977.

That is 16 years ago. How long more will it be before our speed limit signs display the same units as the distance signs on the same roads?

The Deputy knows that we have made fantastic improvements to our roads in the meantime and we are greatly facilitating her when travelling from Wexford to Dublin.

Very true. If the Minister completes the Arklow and Gorey bypasses he will be top of the pops down there.

We are not idle.

The Minister has a bit to do yet. This is an area of great frustration. I accept the logistical problem the Minister has. The Minister has now available to him a great deal of money from the EC Cohesion and Structural Funds. Is there any way the Minister could obtain a sum from the next three or four year EC funding programme in order to achieve the overnight change which both the Minister and I agree is needed? There would be total mayhem if speed signs on some roads were denoted in kilometres per hour and others in miles per hour. The change would have to be publicised well and a big advertising and PR campaign would have to be undertaken. Perhaps new coloured signs should be introduced which would be recognised well by everyone in advance. We should co-ordinate the signing on our roads before 20 years have passed since we have gone metric, which will be in three years time. We are the laughing stock of young generations and visitors who cannot understand our and older generations' difficulties in computing kilometres per hour. The present system is also dangerous. May I suggest, in withdrawing my amendment, that the Minister obtain a sum of money over the next three years to do this? This would be in line with the concept of cohesion which is that we should be brought into line, modernised and brought into the 21st century.

I think that would be perfectly possible if the Deputy could persuade some of her expensive colleagues to make lesser demands in other areas.

I think we can over-hype the situation and attack ourselves too much. I am not receiving huge representations——

No, the Deputy is:

—— from young people, or from people throughout the community, on this issue. I accept the principle of it and I accept that it is desirable but the situation is being hyped up out of all proportion.

Who is hyping it up out of all proportion?

The claim that we are the laughing stock of younger generations and of Europe is over-hyping the situation. To me that is not the reality and is not a factual statement. I would have reservations about allocating money from the Cohesion Fund for this purpose until I saw estimates. Every local authority has submitted projects for Structural Fund allocations for road construction which far outweigh the supply of funding. We will not receive the funds we require in Cork city and county and I would say the same applies everywhere else.

The note of dissension which has just been introduced should be replied to. Obviously in the part of the country from which the last speaker comes they do not notice the difference between miles per hour and kilometres per hour. In Wexford I have had several representations. I will not pretend I have books full of them but I had at least four over this summer alone and I have made the point that it would be discussed during the debate on the Road Traffic Bill. The logic is irrefutable. There are other priorities — God knows, Ireland will not come to a standstill if we do not do what is proposed here — but this is the Bill on which we should discuss these issues. This seems to be a rather small objective which could be achieved. If we could put the small things in place the bigger things would then come on stream. I think this is important and 20 years after metrication it is time we got our act together.

I have already said that this would be an ideal situation and is something I will work towards. I have no reason to get involved in a conflict between Wexford and Cork——

It would not be in the Minister's interest, he might not come out best.

—— except as a Munster man. I recall that Cork scored against Wexford rather recently.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 34 stand part of the Bill."

May I, for the record, ask the Minister to give us a definition of the difference between an ordinary speed limit and a general one under this section? There are five or six different types of speed limits and I am confused between the ordinary one and the general one.

It is extraordinary that the premier county can at times have problems with the people who represent it. The general speed limit is 60 miles per hour in rural areas. The built-up area speed limit is 30 miles per hour. The special speed limit is 40 miles per hour or 50 miles per hour.

Sorry, I cannot hear the Minister. The built-up area speed limit is 30 miles per hour?

Yes. The special speed limit is 40 or 50 miles per hour and the motorway speed limit is 70 miles per hour.

Would the Minister repeat the ordinary limit?

For buses or goods vehicles it is 40 or 50 miles per hour.

There is no difference between the special and ordinary limits, they just apply to different classes of vehicles?

Would the Minister repeat the general speed limit?

60 miles per hour.

Or 102 kilometres.

Ten out of ten, Deputy.

Question put and agreed to.
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