Amendments Nos. 1 and 6 are related and may be discussed together.
SECTION 3.
I move amendment No. 1:
In page 6, subsection (1), lines 6 and 7, to delete the definition of "elector" and substitute the following:
"'elector', except where the context otherwise requires, means a presidential elector, or a person who was ordinarily resident in the State within the previous seven years and who would have qualified as a presidential elector if still resident within the State;".
The purpose of these two amendments is to permit recent emigrants to vote in Presidential elections. Over the past few years there has been a good deal of debate both inside and outside the House about the principle of giving voting rights to emigrants. In early 1991 we had a Private Member's Bill from the Labour Party, which was defeated by a fairly narrow majority in the House. Subsequent to that, in October 1991, when the revised programme for Government between Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats was published, there was a commitment that a comprehensive paper would be brought before Government immediately, examining the feasibility of providing voting facilities to emigrants and that a decision would be made by the Government before Christmas. That was to have been done by Christmas 1991. That did not happen and the matter remained through 1992 without any further progress being made. Then, following the 1992 general election, we had the Programme for a Partnership Government between Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party, which stated that:
Under present Constitutional provisions, there is only limited scope to grant voting rights to those temporarily absent from the country. We accept in principle that there should be constitutional change to give voting rights to emigrants and this issue will be further examined.
From responses to Dáil questions tabled by me in the course of the earlier part of this year, it is clear that the examination seems to have been put on the long finger. There is a great deal of lip service paid to the idea of granting voting rights to emigrants but when it comes to taking a hard decision on the matter, it seems to be deferred.
There is an unanswerable case to give recent emigrants voting rights in Irish elections. First, we are one of the few countries which denies its emigrants the right to vote in its own elections. That is a remarkable achievement for this country, given the level of emigration that we have, especially since the vast majority of people who leave here are forced to do so for economic reasons. Over the last ten to 15 years we have heard a great deal of talk about our young people emigrating because they were citizens of the world, etc., but the blunt truth is that the vast majority either leave because they cannot get a job here or the income they get is insufficient for them to maintain a reasonable standard of living. They go abroad for those reasons and most of them want to return. Most have every intention of returning to the country at some stage. It may well have been the case 30 or 40 years ago that people who left shipped themselves and their suitcases out of the country on the mail boat and never returned. They went to live in some part of north London or Boston or wherever and simply did not return. They were forgotten and were pandered to when a Minister went abroad on a St. Patrick's Day and spoke at some Irish centre.
There is a different situation now in that the emigrants of today are articulate and well organised. They are making a demand on this country to given them their democratic right, which is a right to a say in the way that the country is governed and a right to vote in our elections. That is a demand that is not going to go away. I am sure every Member of the House has at various times received correspondence from one or other of the emigrant groups who are now organising and demanding the right to vote in elections.
I tabled these two amendments to this Bill, first, because it is an opportunity for us to air again the question of voting rights for emigrants and to give the Minister an opportunity to state the current Government thinking on the matter. Second, various reasons were advanced at different stages as to why votes could not be granted to emigrants in general elections. Some of those reasons were political. There was a argument made that if emigrants were granted the right to vote in general elections it could have a distorting effect on the ourcome of the election. This does not seem to me a very sound democratic reason for refusing people the right to vote, that they might actually influence the election. There were also reasons advanced that because general elections are called at fairly short notice, the logistics of organising votes for emigrants might be such as to make it very difficult. That clearly would not apply in the case of a Presidential election which is held at fixed intervals and can be anticipated.
Third, there is a very good reason why emigrants should be granted a right to vote in Presidential elections, which is that the President is head of the entire Irish family. All Presidents, including the present incumbent, have gone out of their way to make it clear that they speak not just for the citizens of Ireland who live in the State at present but also for the entire Irish family, including those who had to emigrate. It seems very appropriate to me that people should be granted the right to vote in those circumstances.
The form that the amendment takes is essentially one which would allow people who would have been entitled to vote at a various Presidential election to have the right to vote at a subsequent election. I do not have a fixed idea in relation to the length of time that an emigrant would have to be out of the country in order to qualify for a vote. Some of the groups who are campaigning for voting rights for emigrants would probably be quite unhappy with the formula I have provided here, for a seven or eight year period out of the country in order to have the right to vote. That is something that can be a matter for discussion.
I am anticipating perhaps the Minister's response, but the argument of the Constitution has been raised in recent times in responding to the case for voting rights for emigrants. The present Government, it seems to me, has hidden behind the Constitution in order to justify not taking action. I do not know where the present Government is getting the idea that the Constitution is an obstacle because there is a considerable body of legal opinion which states that there is no constitutional obstacle to providing voting rights for emigrants. In the course of exchanges I would be quite happy to discuss that with the Minister.
The question of voting rights for emigrants has been around for two to three years. This is an opportunity to do something about it. It is a modest amendment. It provides for the granting of voting rights to recent emigrants only. It is in an election which is not an election for the formation of a Government. It is not called at short notice and consequently does not carry with it all of the various reasons and excuses which have been advanced previously for denying the right to vote to emigrants. I am putting the amendment before the committee and I hope that the Minister will see merit in it and respond positively. If he is unable to do that I hope that the committee will be in a position to convince him otherwise during the course of discussion.
An interesting case has been put by Deputy Gilmore in relation to recognising the strong call by our emigrants for representation and involvement in our electoral system. Fine Gael recognises this and has given it some thought over recent years. The very least we ask of the Governemnt is to have some serious dialogue and discussion as to its intention and to let us know what it intends to do in this area, as distinct from sticking it in election manifestos. We would like to know what it will actually do.
At this point, given that we do not even allow residents in this country who are not citizens to vote in Presidential elections, this type of election would be premature in terms of suggesting voting rights for emigrants. We feel very strongly that the Seanad system offers the best hope of real representation for emigrants and real involvement by them in the voting systems for elections. I would like that pursued by the Government, notwithstanding whatever constitutional difficulties might be offered. I have no doubt that they can be got around; they are not insurmountable. If the political will is there to sort that out it can be done.
I would like an examination of the Seanad electoral system to see if we can accommodate what is a growing call by our emigrants, particularly those who have recently left our shores, to have a say in how the country is run. The advantage of the Seanad, as distinct from perhaps the Presidential election, would be that the emigrants could go further than just vote. They could look for representations in terms of their own candidate on a panel, depending on what system we would be talking about. They would then have a voice in the House of the Oireachtas. That is really what our emigrants want as distinct from just any type of tokenism there might be in coming to a formula for allowing them to vote without representation.
I know where Deputy Gilmore is coming from on this. I know he represents the views of many people. But when we analyse the system we have in this country, Fine Gael favours voting rights and representations of our emigrants in the Seanad. I hope the Government will pursue that path.
On this amendment, while one can appreciate the sincerity of what Deputy Gilmore is trying to do, we have to look at its practicalities. Deputy Doyle is correct and the mechanism to address this issue in the future is possibly through the Seanad. I have here an example of a register of electorate which operates. Anybody who canvasses in election time encounters many houses where people do not have a right to vote in Dáil elections. Many of them are resident in the country for many years, such as European citizens and citizens of other states. We should be addressing the present system in regard to people who are resident in this country. Do reciprocal arrangements operate in similar countries abroad for Irish people resident there? I am not so sure.
Many of these people are disappointed that they can be approached for a vote in a European and in a local election but cannot vote in Dáil election. Yet we have no problem taking tax from those people. This matter should be seriously considered. One can see the amount of red tape and bureaucracy attached to postal votes for special voters. Although a lot of this bureaucracy has been simplified in recent times, one can imagine how intimidating it would be if we had to cater for emigrants on a worldwide basis. While I agree with the spirit of this amendment, its implementation would be frightening. The way to address this issue in the future, if we are serious, is through the Seanad system. I appreciate the sincerity of this amendment, but I doubt its practicality.
Like other Members, I sympathise with this amendment. Although the issue of votes for emigrants received a lot of attention in the past, it is unfortunate that it has been placed on the back burner and this sends a bad signal to emigrants. Others have mentioned the contacts we have had with various groups who believe we, as legislators, should show responsibility towards emigrants, and this would be one way a system could be devised where they would be allowed to vote in elections.
A good point was made about presidential elections. These are never snap elections, unless the incumbent dies or resigns from office; I know it has happened, but it is unusual. At a time when a great deal of attention rests on the Presidency it would give a strong signal to our emigrants that our thoughts are with them, particularly if we were to go along the road suggested by Deputy Gilmore. I am unsure about the device he would put in place to ensure its efficient operation, but I support the spirit of what he is trying to do.
While canvassing during various campaigns it became clear that people were distressed because they were disqualified from participating in elections, although they were resident in this country for many years. Whether there are reciprocal arrangements are not, we should look at this matter of people being allowed to vote if they are resident for a certain period of time. Given the way this amendment is couched, I am not sure whether it can be supported, but the spirit of it should be supported. I ask the Minister to take the issue of votes for emigrants off the back boiler so as to send the right signal to emigrants.
I sympathise with the ideas contained in the amendment. During the debate on the Electoral Bills in the Seanad one or two years ago, I spoke in favour of votes for emigrants and I have not changed my view on that. There is a strong case to be made for giving votes to emigrants. During that debate a number of issues were raised in relation to the practical difficulties attached to that. In the amendment before us it is specified that a person should be resident outside the State for a period of eight years or less. Why could it not specify ten years, or people born in this country no matter how long since they have emigrated? For those reasons we cannot proceed with this amendment, but I accept the points made by a number of speakers that this matter should be seriously examined. We should produce a position paper on this issue so that the options and the difficulties attached to giving emigrants votes could be addressed in a serious manner. There are many models available; a number of countries have facilities for their emigrants. We should look at them and pick one which is appropriate for us. We should examine the constitutional difficulties and, if necessary, I would be in favour of constitutional change. We cannot proceed with this amendment without considering the various difficulties which might be attached to it.
In the past some people have raised the question of the emigrant vote having a profound affect on the nature of Irish politics. I do not share that view. I believe that the voting pattern of emigrants would be similar to the one seen in this country and, as I said in the Seanad debates, if anybody was to benefit from this it would at the end of the day be Fianna Fáil.
That would be our suspicion.
Indications from emigrant organisations lead me to that conclusion, but one does not know about these things until they are tested. I would not agree with the conclusions reached by others that this would profoundly change the nature of Irish politics. There is a certain logic in relation to the rhetoric which has continued over the years regarding our concern for emigrants and our attachment to them. If that rhetoric is to mean anything it should be transformed into something practical by way of giving emigrants a voice where it counts. I have an open mind as to how that could be done. There is merit in the suggestion made by Fine Gael, but there are one thousand and one other suggestions which should be considered. I would welcome Government initiative in producing a paper on this question.
As chairman of Cavan County Council, I visited emigrant associations on a number of occasions in Birmingham, London and New York. The one thing which struck me time and time gain was the number of elderly people who had emigrated over 20 or 30 years ago and who still clung to the ambition of coming home. They were disillusioned that they had to leave the country, but they still aspired to the belief that if they saved sufficient money they could come back home. They kept in touch with what was happening here by reading the national and parochial newspapers in detail. If we can give a lifeline to those people in some shape or form, we must be serious about it. The Government is not serious about giving emigrants a voice. After all, they are our people and they had to leave the country through no fault of their own. We have failed them.
Deputy Doyle's proposal is solid. Not only would it give them an opportunity to vote for somebody, but they would have a person to represent them. That is vitally important and it would continue the lifeline that they cling to. I believe Deputy Gilmore spoke about a period of time, seven or eight years, after which people lost their affinity with the home country. I do not agree with that because I found that after 20 or 30 years people still clung to the ambition of returning home. We should not give up on them; they have not given up on us. Many of those people through their associations and organisations are doing marvellous work for this country, organising funding, establishing contacts and trying to bring business to this country. We should recognise that. Deputy Doyle's proposal of representation in the Seanad would be a step in the right direction, but it should not be the only representation.
(Wexford): The extension of voting rights to our emigrants has been discussed by both Houses of the Oireachtas on different occasions in the past few years. We have had many valuable contributions to the debate and there has been a keen and informed understanding of the very complex issue involved. In general, all political parties desire an appropriate link between the Oireachtas and the emigrants.
The legal advice available to the Government is that under the relevant provision of the Constitution it would not be possible to extend voting rights to citizens who are not part of the population of the State except in very limited circumstances, such as to those who are abroad for only a relatively short period of time. Members will be aware that the Programme for a Partnership Government accepts in principle that there should be constitutional change to give voting rights to emigrants and the programme indicates that this issue should be further examined. Examination is a matter initially for the Minister for the Environment and I am confident that within a reasonably short period of time the Minister will bring forward proposals for an appropriate amendment of the Constitution.
Deputy Doyle raised the issue of representation in the Seanad. While there is no specific deadline for completion of this examination in the Programme for Government, it really relates to the period up to 1997, the period of this partnership Government. It may be taken that the intention is to have all elements in place to enable those arrangements which have been decided on to be in operation before the next general election. However, the examination must of necessity be carried out in the context of the substantial programme of electoral measures now in train and Fine Gael's and Deputy Doyle's suggestion that this area that should be seriously examined should be seen within the wider context of the examinations which will take place. There is no question of putting it on the back burner as some Deputies may be saying this morning. There is a commitment, and I can assure Members that that commitment will be carried through.
In reply to Deputy Gilmore, even if we were to accept these amendments it is doubtful that they would have an effect because under Article 12.2.2th of the Constitution the persons entitled to vote at Presidential elections are citizens of Ireland who have the right to vote at Dáil elections. As the Constitution stands, it seems that a person must have the right to vote for the Dáil before he or she can vote at a Presidential election. Therefore it is important that the Minister bring forward the review as quickly as possible and put the arrangements into place, as promised in the Government programme.
The Minister referred to the time period for the completion of any examination of the whole matter of voting rights for our emigrants and he said really we have up to 1997. I wish the Minister to tell us what exactly the Government has put in place in terms of investigating this whole area. Is there a ministerial group considering it? Whose responsibility is it in Government? What action will be taken to set up a proper examination, publish a discussion document and point out the legal and constitutional diffculties and the relative merits of Seanad or Dáil voting rights and all the other issues that have been brought forward, including Presidential election voting rights? Are we likely to see any real effort from this Government to examine the issue thoroughly? None of us can pretend we have all the answers, it is a very complex area, but I would at least like to see evidence that this Government intends to take this whole question of voting rights for emigrants seriously.
Todate, we have absolutely no indication that there is any commitment from this Government to answer the call of the millions of Irish people who, as others have said, have gone abroad mainly against their will. Some have gone by choice but for whatever reason they all want to come home. They will not all come home but they all leave with the ambition of coming home after a period of time. Can we answer the call of these emigrants for recognition of what they see as their electoral rights in this country where they were born, where they grew up and were educated?
I ask the Minister whether he will take on board the Eleventh Amendment to the Constitution Bill, Fine Gael's Bill in relation to voting rights in the Seanad, and bring it to whomever is charged with examining the whole area. Quite a lot of work has been done. Much more needs to be done before the Bill could be enacted, even we recognise that, but the concept of using the Seanad to extend voting rights to our emigrants also has the advantage of being a nine, ten or 11 week election. Sufficient notice is given by virtue of the fact that election to the Seanad occur after a general election. A general election can be called and we could have one within three weeks.
There could be difficulties in a Dáil election in sorting out voting rights, gathering votes, counting them and bringing them back to a centre. Could we see some real effort by the Government to examine the issue and if, having examined it, they are not going to extend voting rights to emigrants, let them say so? The cruellest option of all is to drag this issue out in the vain hope that something might happen in terms of extending voting rights when perhaps the Government really has no intention at all of extending any voting rights or representation to our emigrants. I ask the Minister to let us know what the Government thinks — what type of examination is in train, who will be responsible and when we can expect to have something in writing, even a discussion document, so we can have a frank exchange of views on this. Let us be honest with our emigrants rather than hold out a carrot which perhaps at the end of the day may disappoint them.
I wish to respond to the discussion we have had on this issue up to now, but before doing so I wish to ask the Minister some questions arising from his own contribution because it might help us to clarify the Government's exact position on this issue. The question of voting rights for emigrants has now been under consideration by both the Government and its predecessor since October 1991. That is the official position. I expect that within the Minister's Department there is now a fairly advanced body of thinking as to what is to be done about this issue. There is a commitment in the Programme for Government which accepts in principle that there should be constitutional change to give voting rights to emigrants and states that the issue will be further examined. My interpretation of that is that at some stage the Government will present a constitutional amendment to give voting rights to emigrants. When I questioned the Minister, Deputy Smith, about this some months ago, he stated that it was not his intention to include such a provision in the electoral Bill that is to be presented to us shortly and that at that stage he was unable to state when exactly such a constitutional amendment would be presented to us.
I have some questions for the Minister. The first is whether there will be a constitutional amendment to give voting rights for emigrants during the lifetime of this Dáil and of the Government? Will there be a constitutional amendment to give voting rights for emigrants in the lifetime of this Dáil or would he consider using the opportunity of the constitutional referendum that will have to be held on the question of divorce, which we are told will be held sometime next year, as an opportunity to run the two together? If he is not able to confirm that, can he give us a firm time scale within which the Government will be presenting its proposal for constitutional amendment to give voting rights for emigrants?
(Wexford): It is quite clear in the Programme for a Partnership Government that the Government accepts that there should be constitutional change to give voting rights to emigrants. It is the intention of this Government to put this into effect during the lifetime of this Dáil. Obviously there are constitutional problems and the Government is advised that under present constitutional provisions there is only limited scope to grant voting rights to those temporarily absent from the country. To give any meaningful extension of the right to vote would therefore involve an appropriate amendment to the Constitution. This would be the case in relation to voting in Dáil elections, presidential elections, Seanad elections or referenda.
Deputy Gilmore said that he had received different legal advice, and that is fine in itself but it must be appreciated that the advice given to the Government comes from the Attorney General, who, under the Constitution, is the adviser to the Government in matters of law and legal opinion. The Government clearly must have regard to that advice. The Government cannot support a proposal for legislation which, in the opinion of the constitutional legal adviser, would be unconstitutional.
Deputy Doyle asked who is responsible or who is in the driving seat——
You are.
(Wexford): ——and the Minister for the Environment is the person who will be examining this in a comprehensive way.
Has he started yet?
(Wexford): He has, and he is examining the full range of possibilities, including the detailed technical arrangements that would be required to give effect to each and the nature of the constitutional amendment required. It may be expected that he will then invite the Government to decide between the different options. While no timescale is envisaged, the timescale really is that the Government is committed during the lifetime of this Dáil, under the Programme for a Partnership Government, to have constitutional change to entitle emigrants to have the right to vote. As regards the lifetime of this Government, I suppose we are talking about 1997, and everything will be——
It is the first time I have heard that, and a caveat.
(Wexford): ——put in place for that situation.
I know the Fine Gael Party and Deputy Doyle are very strong on the Seanad issue. There is a lot of merit in the case where people would not alone have the right to vote but would have representation, whether it be in the Seanad or elsewhere. That is one of the areas that will be under consideration and will be given serious examination. You can take it that the Minister has given a commitment to general reform in this area. He is examining it, will continue to examine it, and it is his intention to have all elements in place before the end of this Government's period in office. The elements are likely to include a constitutional amendment Bill, a referendum implementing legislation and administrative action, such as the drawing up of a register and putting in place appropriate voting arrangements.
I can assure Deputies from all sides of the House that there is no question of this issue being put on the back burner, it is live. The Minister has given a commitment and I will take your views back to him to ensure that we will continue to progress this to fruition as quickly as possible.
Can the Minister tell us if the Minister for the Environment will avail of the next referendum — which might be the divorce referendum — to remove the perceived constitutional difficulties? I am not talking about the legal framework or the legislation to do with this, but if that is to be the next referendum would that not be an ideal opportunity?
I have a further brief question arising from the Minister's response. Did I understand him correctly? Did he say it is the Government's intention that not only will the referendum have been held and legislation put in place, but what he described as the "administrative arrangements" will also have been put in place before the next general election? Assuming a full-term Government, or close to it, emigrants will be able to vote at the next general election; is that the bottom line of what the Minister is telling us today?
(Wexford): The Programme for a Partnership Government covers the period 1993-1997, and it is my understanding that the Minister will ensure that all sections — referendum, legislation and administration — will be put in place before the next general election. That commitment has been given.
In relation to having the referendum with the divorce referendum, my personal view is that the divorce referendum will be very important and the voting rights for emigrants will also be a very important issue. I would not like to see the two tied together. They are two very different referenda, two very important referenda—
You should get a few extra seats.
(Wexford):— and for that reason I think they should be taken separately; but that is my personal view.
Is amendment No 1. being pressed?
I would like to respond to a few points that have been made. The Minister has now put on the record a very firm commitment that emigrants will be entitled to vote at the next general election. I hope that commitment will be honoured. The only thing that causes me to be a little sceptical is that a firm commitment was given previously and that was in 1991 when a timescale was set down for the implementation of some form of voting rights for emigrants. There was to be a Government decision by the end of 1991, but that never happened. I hope we are not going to see a repeat of that.
The second point relates to whether a constitutional change is necessary. My understanding is that the advice the Government got from the Attorney General is that the right to vote constitutionally applies to those who are resident in the State, temporarily absent from the State and those who have a definite intention to return to the State. It seems to me that recent emigrants have a definite intention to return to the State. Even the Attorney General's advice to the Government is not as clear cut on this constitutional question.
There are a number of other opinions which suggest that there is not a constitutional problem. For example, Judge Hederman, speaking in New York in January this year, stated that he sees no constitutional prohibition against giving all Irish citizens the right to vote in Irish elections. I am quoting from The Echoof 27 January 1993, which reported on his visit:
During a question-and-answer session following a lecture in Fordham University School of Law, the Hon. Mr. Justice Anthony Hederman was asked about votes for Irish immigrants. The judge said he would not answer the political question, but, to answer the legal question, he said he saw no constitutional prohibition against giving all Irish citizens of Irish citizenship, wherever they be in the world, the right to vote. He added that already in the Supreme Court there is a decision that says that a person can be registered in more than one place in Ireland for the purpose of an election but they can only vote in one constituency.
I know there is always restraint in quoting the President but if you will allow me the latitude of quoting Mary Robinson, Senior Counsel——
With due respect, Deputy, you cannot refer to the President.
I am not referring to the President; I am referring to a constitutional lawyer.
If you want to get into a grey area I will have to rule you out of order, I am sorry.
I will abide by your ruling. There is a body of legal opinion, including a number of constitutional lawyers — at least one of whom cannot be quoted in these proceedings — which clearly states that there is not a constitutional prohibition on the granting of voting rights to emigrants.
I was a little disappointed by the tone of the discussion at this committee, particularly from some of the Fine Gael Members, and I felt that the Minister of State, in his contribution, seemed to be veering, towards the Fine Gael position. In doing so the Minister of State appeared to be signalling that what might emerge from the Gvoernment's consideration might be the granting of some kind of representation in the Seanad. This would appear to me to establish some kind of electoral reservation for emigrants. The emigrant organisations have already clearly signalled that that is not acceptable to them, that they would regard it as a sop and that it is not a substitute for full involvement in the political country. I hope when the Government presents its proposals that it will not be in the form of establishing a few seats in the Seanad or some kind of a reservation for emigrants where they can be nominally granted some kind of representation and voting rights but where it will not really affect the mainstream of Irish politically life. I do not believe that is what the emigrants are seeking.
Regarding the amendment, it is my intention to withdraw it. However, I am signalling my intention to re-enter the amendment on Report Stage or to enter an amendment which takes account of some aspects of the discussions on Committee Stage. I believe that this an issue which requires continuing debate. I am pleased that some progress has been made on Committee Stage and I hope that on Report Stage the Minister will be in a position to be more precise and definite about the timescale and exactly what measures are to be proposed.
I am not sure that Deputy Gilmore's colleague and party representative in the Seanad would like to consider himself to be in any kind of electoral reservation. As one who has spent two and a half to three fruitful and productive years in the Seanad, I would like to say to Deputy Gilmore, and indeed any Deputy who may be of the opinion that the Seanad is any type of electoral reservation, that it is anything but such a reservation.
Perhaps if one does not support the bicameral system of Parliament one can view these various opinions in different ways. However, as one who does support it and sees great benefit in a second chamber, albeit a chamber that perhaps needs some reform at this stage, I believe it ill behoves any Deputy in this House to make those kind of remarks about a chamber which has made an excellent contribution to the parliamentary system in this country, Indeed, it has the potential to contribute much more.
In this context increasing the potential of the Seanad in this respect would be to open it to far more groups which are not currently represented and to perhaps make it truly vocational. In addition I believe that rather than extend voting rights to our emigrants, we should extend the possibility of representation in our Parliament. Fine Gael is the only party that has put on paper their thoughts at this stage and has had serious discussion within the party on how to start this process of the representation of emigrants. There are five types of election in this country; the Seanad election is but one type. I have yet to hear any proposal from any other party that will stand up to any kind of critical examination. I believe that the Eleventh Amendment to the Constitution Bill, proposed by Fine Gael and suggesting a way to allow representation as well as voting rights to our emigrants in the Seanad, is a good start. It should be examined with a view to proceeding on this basis as far as possible and at that stage let us examine the feasibility of extending voting rights to our emigrants in the other elections in this country.
I believe that together we can perhaps solve what is a problem. There is no simple answer to this difficulty. Many of the emigrants have communicated with me. Indeed, Mr. Andrew Doyle, based in the USA and son of the late Councillor Andy Doyle who died last week in Enniscorthy, is one of the spokespersons for the emigrant groups. I am sure that he communicates as much with the Minister of State as with me. However, since he was a former constituency voter in Wexford, we have a particular interest in his views and we listen carefully to what he has to say. The emigrant groups do not rule out representation in the Seanad although I agree that they want more.
I wish to put on record that I believe that Deputy Gilmore's remarks referring to representation in the Seanad as any type of electoral reservation is not acceptable. Our present President came from that same electoral reservation and she is doing quite well. She did very well in the Seanad also.
On a point of clarification, I believe Deputy Gilmore made no suggestion of an electoral reservation and I believe that anyone who has been in the Seanad, including myself, has found it to be an enlightening House.
Including the President.
I call Deputy Gilmore.
Perhaps I misheard or misunderstood what Deputy Gilmore said, but my understanding was that he used the expression that it would be confining our emigrants to some kind of electoral reservation.
I call Deputy Gilmore.
I am happy to clarify my remarks. I would never be so unkind to describe the entire Seanad as an electoral reservation. Some of my best friends are in the Seanad.
Not Mr. Seán Garland.
(Wexford): He did try.
He is not in the Seanad either. What I was describing was the idea of establishing a Seanad constituency, which is what I understand the Fine Gael proposal to be, namely, that there would be a separate Seanad constituency of, I believe, three seats for emigrants and that the involvement of emigrants in Irish politics would be corralled into this three seat arrangement in the Seanad. That is what I am describing as an electoral reservation and I believe I am accurately describing it as such. It is not in any way casting a reflection on the Seanad itself. However, it is casting a reflection on the Fine Gael proposal, because I believe there is a fundamental difference between granting some kind of limited, restricted entitlement to participate in politics to emigrants, which is contained in that kind of proposal, and granting to the individual emigrant the right to participate fully as a citizen of this State and to be able to vote in elections in this State in the same way as every other citizen. There is a fundamental difference between these aspects which I am pointing out to the committee. It is not a reflection on the Seanad, but it is a criticism of the Fine Gael proposal and I stand over that criticism.
I fully agree with the sentiment of Deputy Gilmore's amendment. I believe that not alone should voting rights be given to emigrants for Presidential elections but also for parliamentary elections. I am not in line with all Members of my party on that point. I am not convinced of the notion that such rights should be granted solely for elections to the Seanad. I believe that in this respect we should follow the French and the Portuguese and perhaps several other countries who allow emigrants and representatives of their colonies to be elected to their main Parliament. We should also follow the USA in allowing their citizens abroad to vote in Presidential elections.
However, I understand the reason for reticence by Governments over recent years. The compilation of a register of electors will create problems. Most of us here can remember back as far as 1979. In that year a postal vote was first introduced for persons other than members of the Garda Síochána and the Army. It was abused to a massive degree. There were stories that some councillors, particularly one from a Northern county, were elected primarily by postal votes which were largely bogus. There must be reservations when we talk about giving votes to people who do no not present themselves at the polling station. The compilation of that register of voters will take a great deal of hard work, research and examination because there could be manipulation if there is not proper supervision.
The present system of postal voting, which applies to people who are not members of the Defence Forces or the Garda Síochána, tends to be over restrictive. This system applies to the physically handicapped. The restrictive nature is a result of the reaction to the exploitation that occurred in 1979. A postal vote has to be renewed every year. A once-off application is not sufficient. Even though the applicant may be bedridden and severely physically disabled, the vote has to be renewed year in and year out. This creates problems and difficulties. I agree with the sentiments of Deputy Gilmore's amendment. It should be applied to all elections, particularly parliamentary elections, as it is in Parliament that the real power lies. I understand the Minister's and the Government's problems with compiling a register. It may be a national characteristic — we did invent Tammany Hall — that we have a tremendous ability to get around systems and institutions. There could be abuses and if these were on a large scale they could affect the results of elections. Therefore, the greatest care will have to be taken.
(Wexford): I thank Deputies for their views. People have their own views and ideas on the voting system we should have. I assure the committee that we will continue to work on the examination in order to comply with the undertaking contained in the Programme for a Partnership Government. The final result of this is a matter for the Minister, the Cabinet, the Houses of the Oireachtas and, ultimately, for the people. Deputy Gilmore might have taken me up slightly wrongly when he said that emigrants would have voting rights at the next general election. It has yet to be decided whether this will be for general elections, Presidential elections, European elections or whether there will be a system like the one considered by Deputy Doyle and Fine Gael. All options will be considered by the Minister during his examination and review. I wish to give an assurance that this will be done in the lifetime of this Government.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 3 agreed to.
Section 4 agreed to.