Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Thursday, 12 Oct 1995

SECTION 14.

Mr. E. Ryan

I move amendment No. 40:

In page 18, subsection (1) (a), line 51, to delete "immediate".

This is an area about which the public get frustrated; small plants or factories — I could give the Minister a list of people in my own constituency — are dumping everything, even car batteries, and polluting residential areas and often the powers that be are not able to take action.

I do not see why the word "immediate" has to be included in this section. If there is a risk of environmental polution, the authorised person should have the power to enter an area and take action. I have a feeling that, if it is a recurring problem, the officials could get around it by saying it was not immediate, that it was ongoing. We know the way these things can be construed when trying to get officials on the ground to work. I do not see why the word "immediate" is included, maybe the Minister could explain it. The word should be taken out and the section should read "that there may be a risk of polluting arising from the carrying out of an activity".

Mr. Howlin

I am convinced of the argument and accept the amendment.

Mr. McCormack

Does amendment No. 40 apply to pollution caused by the illegal parking of caravans? We have a cumbersome method now of getting rid of caravans that park illegally and cause pollution in certain areas. Is this covered by this section?

Mr. Howlin

I will have to reflect on that. This section deals with waste production and whether the category of waste outlined by the Deputy falls into the defintion of waste production will have to be reflected upon.

Mr. McCormack

Would not many local authorities, be interested in that definition?

Amendment agreed to.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 41 and 42 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. E. Ryan

I move amendment No. 41:

In page 19, subsection (5) (a), line 47, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

Deputies Dempsey and Sargent earlier raised the need to give a clear message and the use of the word "may" does not seem logical. We must get tough on people who are polluting. I do not see why the word "may" was included. I believe it should be deleted and we should substitute it by "shall". It is important as has already been said, that there is no way people should be able to squeeze out of their responsibility for pollution control and we must take, and we must be seen to take, through this Bill, firm action. That is what people want: they want their environment protected and the legislation to do that.

Mr. Howlin

I am anxious to help the Deputy but I want to leave as much flexibility as I can and I want as many options available to the inspector or the authorised officer as possible. The Deputy wants the section to read that the authorised person "shall direct the holder" to take certain actions, but there might be a range of options. He might hotfoot it to the High Court for an injunction; he might decide that he wants a number of specific tests to be undertaken; he might take any of a number of other actions — consult with other experts or bring in his superiors. He can certainly do what the Deputy wants — he can give that instruction — but I want him to have other options, rather than being confined to taking one particular course of action.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 42 not moved.

Chairman

Amendment Nos. 43 and 44 form a composite proposal and by agreement, may be taken together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. E. Ryan

I move amendment No. 43:

In page 20, subsection (6), between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:

"(e) The Minister shall within six months after the enactment of this Act provide for a system of on the spot fines which shall be not less than £500 in respect of a private vehicle or house and £1,000 in respect of a commercial vehicle or vehicle including farm machinery.".

This amendment comes back to the points already discussed about fines by the Minister.

Mr. Howlin

I do not see how this fits into this section. The Deputy proposes the insertion of a paragraph compelling the Minister to provide for a system of on the spot fines within six months of the enactment of this Bill. It does not relate to subsections (a), (b), (c) and (d). Section 14 (6) outlines how a person shall be guilty of an offence under this Bill and the Deputy wants to add a new paragraph (e). The proposed paragraph does not fit with the wording of the subsection.

Mr. Dempsey

The wording of the proposed new paragraph could be added at the end of the subsection, after the words "shall be guilty of an offence".

Mr. Howlin

But it cannot be inserted as paragraph (e).

Mr. Dempsey

We will delete the "(e)" and propose that the rest of the wording be added after the words "shall be guilty of an offence".

Mr. Howlin

First, the proposed amendment does not fit and, second, what are the on the spot fines for? What do the words "in respect of a private vehicle or house" mean?

Mr. E. Ryan

For people who have offended under the previous paragraphs.

Mr. Howlin

In a private house?

Mr. E. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Dempsey

In other words, if somebody refuses to allow an authorised officer into a private house. It is badly worded. We will withdraw it and resubmit it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 44 not moved.

Section 14, as amended, agreed to.

Chairman

We have now reached our agreed deadline. I want to draw the attention of Members to the fact that there are corrections to the principal list of amendments, dated 12 October 1995, which are as follows.

In amendment No. 138, the reference to "subsection (2) (b)" relates to the subsection (2) (b) proposed to be inserted in section 28 by amendments Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, and not the existing subsection (2) (b) of section 28 of the Bill. In amendment No. 163, the second paragraph proposed to be inserted should be numbered "(vi)" and not "(iv)". We will circulate a note on that to Members.

The Select Committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 1995.