Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 1995

SECTION 33.

Mr. Sargent

I move amendment No. 157a.:

In page 42, lines 28 to 40, to delete subsections (2) and (3).

There is a growing trend toward privatisation in the local authorities. This means we have to be careful that the controls or conditions that local authorities operate under are not forgotten about or weakened when the same tasks are done by other operators. Subsections (2) and (3) are to some extent superfluous because section 33 (1) states each local authority shall collect or arrange for the collection of household waste within its functional area.

When it comes to 33 (2) it says: "subsection (1) (a) shall not apply to household waste in any part of the local authority's functional area to the extent that any of the conditions mentioned in subsection (3) applies to that part or, as appropriate, to that household waste." Then it refers to the conditions in subsection (2) being that

there is an adequate waste collection services available in the part concerned of the local authority's functional area,

(b) the estimated costs of the collection of the waste concerned by the local authority would, in the opinion of the authority, be unreasonably high,

(c) the local authority is satisfied that adequate arrangements for the disposal of the waste concerned can reasonably be made by the holder of the waste.

Those of us used to dealing with public transport can see a parallel here because when handing over an operation to a private company which has to earn a profit in the ordinary course of events, the tendency is for the less economical parts of the function to be sidelined or forgotten. Where there is isolated housing, for instance, and where the local authority hands over a function, if the private operator is not constrained to the same extent it can talk about an unreasonably high cost so the area will be devoid of a service and there is no accountability. I fear that problem will grow even though it could also be serious at the moment in certain areas. Has that been taken into account in this section? I am proposing that it be deleted until we can properly face up to that. Subsection (1) does seem to allow the local authority to make the rules and retain some accountability.

Mr. Howlin

My difficulty is that the Deputy proposes to delete the qualification provisions outlined in subsection (2). This would leave subsection (1) bald. Subsection (1) states that "Each local authority shall collect, or arrange for the collection of, household waste within its functional area". The effect of leaving this bald and unqualified would be to require each local authority to collect or arrange for the collection of household waste from every household. This would be unworkable and would be an unreasonable imposition on local authorities. For this reason I ask the Deputy not to press the amendment. The Deputy has amplified other issues which we can debate but which are not served by this amendment.

Mr. Sargent

What is bald to one person is succinct and to the point to somebody else. Subsection (1) means that local authorities are accountable. I do not think the Minister has addressed the fear I expressed and which is shared by many people. My fear is related to the fact that, whereas local authorities provide services which would be considered uneconomical from a normal commercial point of view, social costs do not become a factor when private operators do the job. This should be considered because I believe that under this section private operators will be able to axe quite an amount of the service which local authorities have provided up to now.

Mr. Howlin

There is no requirement to prevent local authorities from providing this service if they choose to do so. If they choose to provide it in partnership with a private operator, this is permissible. If they opt not to provide the service and allow for a private contractor to do so, there will be isolated areas where nobody will collect refuse because it will not be economically viable to do so.

Notwithstanding any of this, there is a general duty of care imposed by section 32 on every holder of waste, which applies to every householder. The provision or otherwise of a refuse collection system will not affect this basic responsibility. Every householder will have to ensure that his or her waste does not cause environmental pollution of any kind. Irrespective of the fact that a person's waste is collected by a local authority, a private waste management system, or by a combination of a public authority and the private sector acting in consort, people who generate and hold waste will have a duty of care imposed on them by law.

Mr. Sargent

Given that the amendment is unacceptable to the Minister would he give some thought to the word "any" being replaced by "all" in line 29? All the conditions outlined in subsection (3) should apply. These conditions relate to an adequate waste collection service, unreasonably high costs of collection and local authorities having to be satisfied that adequate arrangements are being made for the disposal of waste. All these conditions rather than any of them should apply. There is a case to be made for some accountability and control.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy's suggestion should be the subject of an amendment.

Mr. Sargent

We are discussing it in the context of my amendment. I am not asking the Minister to say yes but I would be happy if he says he will think about taking on board the idea, as he has done in the past.

Mr. Howlin

I hope Deputies will agree that I have been as flexible as I can on this. I do not think the Deputy's suggestion provides a solution. Local authorities do not currently have a statutory obligation to make a collection; this provision is new. The qualifications I have inserted are necessary. The onus of care is also new. A variety of new impositions will flow from this enactment. This covers adequately and well the points the Deputy wants covered.

Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

Mr. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 157b:

In page 43, lines 9 and 10, to delete subsection (7) and substitute the following:

"(7) Waste collected by a local authority or other authorised person shall become the property of the authority or other authorised person.".

The purpose of this amendment is to cover private operators, that is, people other than local authorities who handle waste. I am not sure if it is necessary and I would like the Minister's view.

Mr. Howlin

I do not think it is necessary and I ask the Deputy not to press it. It does not address the issue of recovered waste. Local authority involvement in waste collection and recovery is a statutory function. There is some doubt as to whether normal contractual rules of transfer of ownership would apply to acceptance of responsibility for waste. Subsection (7) will put this matter beyond doubt and protect any retrospective claim against public funds for the value of recovered goods or their energy equivalent. Such provision is not necessary in relation to a private sector collection or recovery operation. Transfer of ownership would be a matter for contractual agreement between agents and their clients at the outset of any waste collection service. This would be worked out in advance and we should facilitate this. On this basis I ask the Deputy not to push the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed: "That section 33 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Howlin

A matter has been brought to my attention which is directly germane to Deputy Dempsey's amendment and I am sure he will welcome this. I wish to give notice to the committee of my intention to bring forward a new amendment on Report Stage to section 33 (8). Currently this subsection prohibits the unlawful disturbance, interference with or removal of waste deposited in a local authority facility. I am considering the need to extend the prohibition to apply to waste collection facilities provided by persons other than local authorities, for example, Kerbside, Rehab and others involved in recycling would have the same protection as local authorities.

Question put and agreed to.