Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Tuesday, 3 Dec 1996

SECTION 20.

Mr. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 12, subsection (1), line 10, before "except" to insert "or any other document placed in the custody of the Clerk of the Dáil under this Act".

This amendment refers to what I said earlier about the access to confidential documents. There is no restriction on access to non-confidential documents. The Bill proposes that: "the production in the High Court by or on behalf of the Clerk of the Dáil of certain documents relating to a European election should be sufficient evidence to prove that the document relates to the specified election".

The Minister has tabled amendment No. 6 which states that it shall not be necessary for the Clerk or his agent to attend in court for this purpose. A further amendment is required because the Minister's amendment deals specifically with certain confidential documents. There are other non-confidential documents relating to elections. For instance, the Minister's amendment relates to the production of ballot papers forwarded to the Clerk by the returning officers after the count. The Bill provides for the transmission to the Clerk of other documents at different times and it is necessary that the provision under amendment No. 6 should be extended to cover all documents relating to European elections. I do not mind if the Minister wants to take this away and look at it on Report Stage.

Mr. Allen

This amendment proposes that no election documents sent to the Clerk of the Dáil for retention and disposal after six months can be inspected except under an order from the High Court. The present provision requires a High Court order only in the case of the most confidential documents, such as ballot papers where the secrecy of the ballot is paramount.

I oppose this amendment because it would mean that documents in which members of the public have a legitimate interest, such as replacement candidates' lists, could only be inspected on foot of a court order. I do not see why we should be so secretive about routine election documents. This amendment seems to fly in the face of the modern approach to making information available unless there is a good reason not to.

Mr. Dempsey

That is not the intention of the amendment. The intention is that the Clerk of the Dáil or the chief returning officer would not need staff sitting around for six months responding to queries from the public for documents. The Clerk can receive many requests from different people even for a nuisance value over a six month period. The idea is not to keep them secret but to ensure that the Clerk is not plagued by requests. I accept that the wording is not perfect but if someone wanted to cause disruption in the House they could do so. Perhaps the answer is that they would have to make a written request for these documents but the wording is too open as it stands.

Mr. Allen

The Bill is silent on the conditions under which non-confidential documents can be made available for inspection. The amendment is in contrast to the Dáil election code which provides that such documents shall be open to public inspection at such times and under such conditions that may be specified by the Clerk of the Dáil. I presume that the same conditions would be imposed on the availability of these documents. I see no justification for prohibiting access to any European election documents except under a court order.

Mr. Dempsey

Is there any way that this can be amended to make it clear that there can be regulation?

Mr. Allen

We will look at that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 12, lines 33 to 40, to delete subsection (5) and substitute the following:

"(5) Where an order pursuant to this section is made for the production by the Clerk of the Dáil of any document in that officer's possession relating to a European election, the production of that document accompanied by the certificate of the Clerk that the document related to the specified election shall be prima facie evidence of the fact so certified and it shall not be necessary to prove the signature of the Clerk or the official position of the person signing the certificate. Unless the court so orders, it shall not be necessary for the Clerk to attend in person to attest to any matter relating to the document or certificate.

(6) Any endorsement appearing on any packet produced pursuant to subsection (5)shall be, until the contrary is shown, sufficient evidence that the contents of the packet are as stated in the endorsement.”.

The purpose of this amendment is to substitute two subsections for subsection (5). It provides for the evidential value of documents produced under a certificate of the Clerk of the Dáil without the necessity for the Clerk to appear in person unless the court so directs.

The amendment was sought by the Clerk because he is generally required to be in attendance while the Dáil is sitting and attendance at court can present problems for him in certain circumstances. He has indicated that under the provisions as drafted he is unsure that the production of an election document on his behalf will be acceptable to the courts.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9 not moved.

Section 20, as amended, agreed to.

Amendment No. 10 not moved.

Sections 21 and 22 agreed to.

NEW SECTIONS.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 11, 12 and 13 are related and may be taken together, by agreement.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 14, after line 47, to insert the following new section:

23.—The Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983 is hereby amended by—

(a) the substitution in paragraph (h) of subsection (3) of section 63, as inserted by paragraph (a) of section 173 of the Electoral Act, 1992, for ‘European Assembly Elections Acts, 1977 to 1992' where that expression occurs of ‘European Parliament Elections Acts, 1992 to 1996': and

(b) the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section 74, as substituted by paragraph (c) of section 173 of the Electoral Act, 1992:

‘(d) Rule 22 of the Second Schedule to the European Parliament Elections Act, 1996,'.".

These are technical amendments which will insert three new sections in the Bill updating the references to European election law in the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, the Local Government Act, 1991, and the Electoral Act, 1992.

Mr. Dempsey

May we have clarification as to its effects? Is it to include the European Parliament elections in the procedures for sending out election literature?

Mr. Allen

It changes the Title of the Act. If the Deputy wishes I will go into more detail.

Mr. Dempsey

It states "the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983 is hereby amended". Is that the section of the Act that allows for election literature to be sent through the post?

Mr. Allen

Yes. It is proposed that section 23 will update the references to the European electoral code in section 63 (h) and section 71 (d) of the Postal Telecommunications Services Act, 1983. Under the first provision referred to, it is not a breach of An Post's exclusive privilege to deliver postal packets within the State for a returning officer or a local returning officer at a European election to deliver election documents otherwise than by post where he or she is satisfied An Post is not in a position to do so.

The second provision of the Postal Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, relates to the making of free postal schemes for candidates' election literature.

Mr. Dempsey

I will not widen the discussion at this stage. As a former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the chairman will appreciate the cost of elections. We will I hope discuss election campaign bills at some stage. Most parties would appreciate if the £8 million it costs to send out election literature was divided among them for election purposes. What happens now is a waste of money and is a direct subsidy to An Post.

Mr. Nealon

A simple amendment could be introduced whereby An Post would be entitled to deliver election literature without actually needing the names on each letter. This would cut out an enormous amount of work for parties and postmen and there would be precisely the same result. It is worth considering in the context of this Bill or perhaps another one.

Mr. Allen

The law allows documentation to be delivered to the household.

Chairman

Can it be sent to the household rather than individual voters? It still requires the address.

Mr. Allen

The address and the family name.

Chairman

Deputy Nealon is asking why it has to be addressed at all. The layout requirements by An Post are out of date with modern technology. One is left with a small area on which to write an address. What can be put on the envelope defies modern presentation and is restrictive.

There is a major difficulty in Dublin, especially near the inner city for Deputies trying to communicate with those living in modern apartments. I presume An Post and fire services have some right of access but there are large parts of my constituency which cannot be accessed. Certain areas cannot be canvassed. Is there any provision for this in electoral legislation?

Mr. Allen

Property owners or tenants are entitled to close their doors to canvassers or candidates.

Chairman

There is no indication that is the case. The provisions are made for security reasons. The post and services have to be delivered and the ESB have to access meters. There also has to be some access for the fire service. I am raising the question of access to their constituents for public representatives. The clergy has also raised this issue as they cannot access their parishioners. It is a new issue the Department of the Environment should examine.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 14, after line 47, to insert the following new section:

24.—The Local Government Act, 1991 is hereby amended by the substitution in paragraph (e) (ii) of subsection (4) of section 28 for ‘section 15 (inserted by the European Assembly Elections Act, 1984) of the European Assembly Elections Act, 1977,' of ‘section 19 of the European Parliament Elections Act, 1996,"'.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 14, after line 47, to insert the following new section:

25.—The Electoral Act, 1992 is hereby amended by—

(a) the substitution in subsection (1) of section 17 for ‘or at any other election or referendum in accordance with the Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1986' of ‘, at a presidential election in accordance with the said Part XIV (as applied to a presidential election by section 41 of the Presidential Elections Act, 1993), at a referendum in accordance with the said Part XIV (as applied to a referendum by section 29 of the Referendum Act, 1994), at a European election in accordance with Part V of the Second Schedule to the European Parliament Elections Act, 1996 or at a local election in accordance with Part VIII of the Local Elections Regulations, 1995 (S.I. No. 297 of 1995)',

(b) the substitution in paragraph (d)(ii) of subsection (3) of section 164 for ‘the European Assembly Elections Acts, 1977 to 1992' of ‘the European Parliament Elections Acts, 1992 to 1996',

(c) the substitution in subsection (1)(c) of section 165 for ‘the European Assembly Elections Acts, 1977 to 1992' of ‘the European Parliament Elections Acts, 1992 to 1996', and

(d) the substitution in subsection (5) of section 165 for ‘Rule 18 of the First Schedule to the European Assembly Elections Act, 1977' of ‘Rule 22 of the Second Schedule to the European Parliament Elections Act, 1996'.".

Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule agreed to.

SECOND SCHEDULE.

Chairman

Amendments No. 31, 52, 53 and 57 are consequential on amendment No. 14 and may be taken together. Agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 24, rule 5, between lines 36 and 37, to insert the following paragraph:

"(5) A person to whom paragraph (4) applies may include in the nomination paper the name of any political group formed in accordance with the rules of procedure of the Parliament of which he or she is a member, provided that, at the time the nomination paper is delivered to the returning officer, a certificate (in this Schedule referred to as a ‘certificate of European political affiliation') is also produced to the returning officer, being a certificate signed by a member of the Secretariat of the relevant political group that the person in question is a member of the political group formed in accordance with the rules of procedure of the Parliament and named in the certificate. Where such a certificate is produced, the returning officer, provided he or she is satisfied that it is appropriate to do so in relation to the candidate, shall cause a statement of the name of such political group, in addition, where appropriate, to the expression ‘Non-Party', to be specified in relation to the candidate on all the ballot papers and on notices.".

This substantive amendment will enable a non-party candidate who is an MEP to have included on the ballot paper and in election notices a reference to a European political group formed under the Parliament's rules of procedures, of which he or she is a member. The candidate will have to provide to the returning officer, along with the nomination paper, a certificate of European political affiliation, signed by the secretariat of the political group.

This amendment is proposed to ensure equality of treatment for non-party candidates who are existing MEP's. A party candidate can include on the ballot paper the name of a European political group provided one of the party's members is an MEP and a member of that group. It seems inequitable that a non-party candidate who is a sitting MEP and a member of the European political group cannot also have the name of that group included on the ballot paper.

Mr. Dempsey

Is there likely to be a difficulty where, for instance, a person decides to stand independently who is not a Member of the Parliament and manages to convince some European group to take him under its wing before the election?

Mr. Allen

To obtain a certificate of European political affiliation, one would have to be an MEP. It would not arise that a candidate who is independent would get membership of one of the groups, as the groups relate to European Parliament membership.

Mr. Nealon

We may be running into difficulty, as pointed out by Deputy Dempsey. It could be represented as being unfair and could lead to a test case if a person who is offered membership of a European group is not entitled to put that down, while a person who is already a Member, even though an independent, is entitled to put that designation on the ballot paper. This matter needs to be looked at carefully as it may exclude people. It would be unfair if membership depended on a person being elected. This matter could lead to litigation in the Four Courts and the European Court of Justice and it needs further examination.

Mr. Allen

We will doubly check but I am confident one cannot become a member of a European parliamentary group unless one is a Member of the European Parliament. Membership of that group is conditional on election to the European Parliament.

Mr. Dempsey

Those who are non-Members of Dáil Éireann receive a certificate signed by the general secretary of whatever party they represent on the ballot paper. I appreciate the point the Minister makes but we need to examine this matter before it is finalised in this Bill. Can you only go on the European ballot paper with the official name of your party on it? Is there provision for where, as sometimes happens in this country, people change their names by deed poll? There is a famous case in Dublin and we have a case in our own constituency of a man seeking nomination under the name Pól Bánín Ó Foighill. He will now be at the top of the ballot paper, fair play to him. He is a member of my party. Deputy Ó Cuív leaves out the "Ó" for ballot paper purposes. Is there room for that type of manoeuvre here?

Chairman

It is a pertinent point. I have seen——

Mr. McCormack

You could do anything you like with your name. I could become "Pádraig Cormack" for the next election.

Chairman

Some candidates have resorted to High Court proceedings during an election to get publicity. It happened during local elections when Mr. Vincent Jackson registered as Vincent Ballyfermot Jackson, but the city manager refused to nominate him. He went to the High Court and got a huge amount of publicity which in turn elected him as Ballyfermot Jackson. We had another famous case in Dublin many years ago. Fine Gael colleagues Alice Glenn and Louis Belton were in great rivalry together. Mrs. Glenn decided to change her name by deed poll to "AGlen" so it would be ahead of Mr. Belton's name, but that was foxed when Mr. Belton changed his name to "Louis ABelton" and the whole thing was brought into disrepute. Is some control proposed about the use or misuse of names?

Mr. Allen

You can change your name any way you want to by deed poll but here we are talking about membership of a parliamentary group where a condition is that you are a member of the European Parliament. I cannot see anybody being able to legally claim membership of a parliamentary group under that condition.

Chairman

Surely if somebody registers their name as, for example, "Jim Radical Mitchell"——

Mr. McCormack

Or "Jim Conservative Mitchell".

Chairman

Is it not leaving it open to frustrate the intention of the law which is to identify clearly candidates rather than allowing people to use their name as an advertising vehicle?

Mr. Allen

This is different from the name of a candidate. The returning officer can under this legislation object to the name of a candidate in a nomination paper if such a name if not the name by which the candidate is commonly know or is misleading and likely to cause confusion or is unduly long or contains a political reference.

Mr. McCormack

Is that condition more strict than the rules for national elections?

Mr. Allen

It is the same as national elections. Anyone is entitled to go to court and contest the law.

Mr. Nealon

A person puts on his membership of a European grouping for advantage electorally. The other person who has been promised membership of a group if elected is a putative member of that particular group. That person can argue reasonably, and possibly successfully in the courts, that he or she is disadvantaged in one way or another. Is the Minister in this instance initiating something new for Ireland or is he transposing something that has already happened in Europe to Irish law?

Mr. Dempsey

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour are all members of European groups. Can a non-member of the European Parliament who is a member of a party here which is a member of a European Parliament group, not legitimately claim that because his party is a constituent organisation of this European group, he as a member of that party is a member of that wider group and is, therefore, entitled to put their name on the ballot paper? It will look funny on a ballot paper otherwise.

Chairman

There is a case.

Mr. Dempsey

In the next European elections we will have three candidates in Munster. Two of them are sitting MEPs and our European parliamentary group is opposite their names. Can our third candidate put down the European Parliament group.

Mr. Allen

A candidate running in a European election who is a member of a political party where that party is part of a European group can put the name of his party and the name of the European political group after his name. The situation in relation to an individual is that the individual does not have membership. His membership of a group is conditional on election so he or she cannot justifiably claim the membership tag after his or her name. We are trying to create equity for independent candidates who are sitting MEPs and members of European political groups.

Chairman

In doing so the Minister creates a situation where an independent member is a member of a group of which another political party is also a member and you might have great confusion. More than two parties from the State could be members of the same group in the European Parliament or an independent could be a member of a group but not a member of the party back home.

Mr. Allen

The candidate has a choice of either putting it in or leaving it out and if they fear confusion they can exclude it.

Chairman

The candidate might like the confusion but the political party might not.

Mr. Nealon

Can a Fine Gael candidate who is already a member of the Parliament put down "Fine Gael, Christian Democrat"?

Chairman

Yes, any Fine Gael candidate can do likewise. Candidates from other parties can put down the name of their party in Ireland and their grouping in Europe.

Mr. Nealon

What about the Fine Gael candidate who is not an MEP?

Chairman

He may do the same.

Mr. Nealon

Even though he is not a member? Why?

Mr. Allen

Because his party is already a member of that group. It is not conditional on his election. An individual who is already a member of a group can also put it down or choose to leave it out.

Chairman

This needs further reflection and perhaps redrafting because where two different domestic parties belong to the same group in Europe there could be confusion, or where an independent candidate is a member of a group in Europe of which another registered party here is a member there could also be confusion.

Mr. Allen

Rather than divide on this now, we will look take further advice on this and look at it again on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Chairman

Amendment No. 15 is in the name of the Minister. Amendment no. 34 is related and both may be discussed together.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment no. 15:

In page 25, rule 7(2), to delete "twenty-eighth" and substitute "seventh".

The amendment reduces to seven days after the election the expiry of the period during which declarations by Irish citizens standing for election in other member states must be available for public inspection in the offices of the returning officer. This will bring the expiry of the inspection period in line with the period of seven days after the election when a person may seek leave of the High Court to present a petition questioning the election result. Under existing law a person has 28 days to lodge a petition questioning a European election result.

Amendment No. 34 is a tidying up measure which inserts a new paragraph into rule 93 of the Second Schedule providing that on expiry of the inspection period referred to in amendment No. 15 the local returning officer must forward to the Clerk of the Dáil any statutory declarations by Irish citizens standing for election in other member states. Under rule 93 (3) these declarations will be retained by the Clerk for six months prior to disposal in the same way as all other electoral documents.

Amendment agreed to.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 16 and 17 and 41 to 50, inclusive, form a composite proposal and all may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dempsey

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 32, rule 19(7), line 43, to delete "Clerk of the Dáil" and substitute "Central Returning Officer".

The function of the Clerk of the Dáil in notifying the filling of a casual vacancy in circumstances where it falls to be filled by resolutions of the Dáil does not worry me and could be retained by the Clerk. However, the Clerk is a public servant as well as a civil servant. He is independent but must work within the political environment of the Houses of the Oireachtas. In such circumstances, a problem may arise as to who fills a vacancy from the list. Approximately four or five years ago a member of a political party was placed on a list but was no longer deemed a member when he ceased being a member of the European Parliament. Is it appropriate that the Clerk should be dragged into an internal political row in these circumstances? It may also be inappropriate for the chief officer of a sovereign Parliament to have any role in filling vacancies in another Parliament, including the European Parliament.

Mr. Allen

These 12 amendments propose to transfer the existing functions of the Clerk of the Dáil regarding the filling of casual vacancies to the Central Returning Officer, functions which have not previously been carried out by that officer. The Clerk of the Dáil has had a role in the filling of casual vacancies in the Parliament since the present system was introduced in 1984. There were no objections to assigning this role to him, either in 1984 or when the system was refined by the European Parliament Elections Act, 1993.

The Clerk's role in this matter is not onerous because the need to fill casual vacancies seldom arises. The last casual vacancy arose in 1994. I am not aware of any major developments since the 1993 Act was debated by the Dáil which would necessitate amendments in the matter. Difficulties have not arisen vis-�-vis the Clerk’s role. On the contrary, it makes sense for the Clerk to fill this role because in the event of it not being possible to fill a vacancy in the Parliament under the normal procedure it falls back on the Dáil to decide whether to select a replacement from among one of the replacement candidate lists presented for the constituency concerned.

I oppose these amendments because the discharge by the Clerk of his functions in filling casual vacancies has worked on a satisfactory basis. Nothing has arisen since the matter was debated in 1993 to change the position.

Mr. Dempsey

What about pre 1993?

Mr. Allen

That was taken care of in the case of party lists where the member was still a member of that party.

Mr. Nealon

The Clerk of the Dáil handles by-elections by virtue of his status. Equally, the Clerk of the Seanad rightly deals with Seanad by-elections. They are ex-officio functions as such. When a vacancy arises in the European Parliament there is merit in the view that the function of replacement should be given to the person responsible in the original stages for declaring these people elected. This is the Chief Returning Officer. It cannot be given to the most appropriate person, the Clerk or Chief Executive of the European Parliament.

The Chief Returning Officer handles all returns. He is responsible for resolving difficulties about voting or the location of votes. Deputy Dempsey makes a valid point about embroiling the Clerk in what may be a controversial issue. On one occasion the Clerk of the Seanad was embroiled in a difficult and delicate political situation by virtue of his office. He would have lost, no matter what way he moved. It exposed the danger of bringing the office into the political arena. The authority and prestige of the office over the years has been built up because of the exemplary way in which various Clerks have addressed these issues. If we impose on the Clerk functions which, of their nature, could create difficulties, we are putting the standing of the office at risk through no fault of the person involved but because of the powers this Bill may invest in him.

Mr. Allen

The Clerk of the Dáil has been doing this job for the past 12 years without difficulty. He has no discretion regarding what happens because his role is governed by the legislation. Furthermore, in view of amendment No. 1, the position of Chief Returning Officer does not exist.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 17 to 19, inclusive, not moved.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 40, rule 30(2), line 23, after "voter" to insert "and a statement of the offences and penalties relating to postal voting contained in Part XIV".

This amendment provides that forms of receipts sent to postal voters must also contain a statement of the offences and penalties relating to postal voting. A similar amendment will be incorporated into other electoral codes by the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1996, which will provide postal voting for people with physical disabilities living at home. As the act of voting by postal voters is unsupervised, the amendment will highlight the penalties for abusing the facility to deter those who may be tempted to abuse it.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments No. 21 to 23, inclusive, not moved.

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 25, 27 and 28 are related to amendment No. 24 and all may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 50, rule 56, between lines 43 and 44, to insert the following paragraph:

"(2) The local returning officer shall, where practicable, provide polling stations which are accessible to wheelchair users.".

These amendments are similar to provisions being made to other electoral codes within the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1996, which is a Private Members' Bill in the name of Deputy Mary Wallace. This Bill will also introduce postal voting for people with disabilities living at home who cannot or do not wish to go to a polling station to vote.

Amendment No. 24 will place a duty on returning officers to provide, where practicable, polling stations which are accessible to wheelchair users. It does this by inserting a new paragraph to rule 56. The words "where practicable" have been included because of the difficulty of getting suitable polling stations in some areas at election time, particularly in rural areas. If there was no flexibility in the amendment, there could only be polling stations in areas — probably urban areas — with suitable modern buildings. This would present difficulties for rural dwellers who might have to travel long distances to vote.

In relation to amendment No. 25, the new paragraph (i) will require the local returning officer to provide facilities in the polling station to help wheelchair users to vote. It will strengthen the existing administrative arrangements whereby presiding officers are instructed to provide a table and chair in polling stations to facilitate voting by electors with disabilities and elderly electors. Presiding officers are instructed to advise electors that, if they wish, they may sit at a table when marking the ballot paper. These arrangements must enable electors to mark the ballot paper in secret.

The new paragraph (j) proposes an enabling provision to permit the Minister by regulations to prescribe arrangements to facilitate voters with visual impairments to mark their ballot papers without assistance. This follows a recommendation by the committee in April in the interim report on procedures for the registration of voters and conduct of elections. The Select Committee recommended that Braille ballot papers or templates should be made available at all polling stations or, at a minimum, at polling stations at which it is known that voters wish to avail of the facility.

This complex question needs detailed consideration. For example, we need to consider the feasibility of using Braille ballot papers and templates in the electoral system where up to 20 candidates' names may appear on a ballot paper and an elector may record as many preferences as he or she chooses. Likewise, the availability of the necessary technical facilities must be explored, as must the ability of a returning officer to control what appears on the ballot paper or template, whatever form it takes. However, I assure the committee that this matter is being examined.

I am proposing an enabling rather than mandatory provision in the new paragraph (j) because it would not be feasible to provide further facilities for voters with visual impairments until all technical aspects have been fully examined and the necessary logistical arrangements put in place to comply with the requirement. Pending the introduction of new facilities, voters with visual impairments can continue to avail of the existing arrangements whereby they can be helped to vote by either a companion or the presiding officer.

Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 place a duty on local returning officers to ensure, where practicable, that the places appointed for verifying ballot paper accounts and the counting of votes are accessible to wheelchair users. The words "where practicable" are included to ensure that the verification of ballot paper accounts and vote counting can proceed in cases where no building accessible to wheelchair users is available. I ask the committee to accept the amendments.

Mr. Dempsey

I welcome the amendments WHICH echo the contents of the Fianna Fáil Private Members' Bill put forward by Deputy Mary Wallace, to which the committee gave its full support. I note the Minister's comments in relation to the new paragraph (j). However, regardless of the arrangements put in place, the option for visually impaired people to have assistance should not be removed even after all the technical details have been examined. Some people would prefer this option and they should have it. I welcome the Minister's commitment to the matter and to wheelchair users.

I accept the Minister's reasoning in amendment No. 24 in relation to the words "where practicable", but returning officers should not be let off the hook regarding the count. Most counts take place in public buildings and there should be access. I am not aware of many buildings which do not have wheelchair access for counts but returning officers should be mandatorily obliged to have counts in places which are accessible to wheelchair users. I ask the Minister to consider this point with a view to removing the words "where practicable" on Report Stage.

Mr. Nealon

The Minister deserves congratulations for the introduction of facilities for wheelchair users. I am sure they and their organisations would wish the committee to express our thanks to the Minister.

I understand the Minister's reasoning for the words "where practicable" in the amendments relating to polling stations and the marking of ballot papers for wheelchair users. Will he consider adding after the words "where practicable", the phrase "inside or within the immediate environs of the polling station"? It would be helpful in rural areas where wheelchair users cannot get into buildings if the presiding officer could mark the ballot paper inside or within the immediate environs of the polling station. A specified period of the day might be necessary but it is worth considering.

Mr. McCormack

I support the Deputy's suggestion. There is no reason why it cannot be done. I am aware of a case in the recent referendum where a wheelchair user had to be carried into the hall. He was one of the few people who turned up to vote. There is nothing wrong with the excellent practical idea of a presiding officer or a polling clerk going to the door and giving wheelchair users a ballot paper to mark.

Chairman

I agree with the suggestion, provided it is not used as an excuse not to provide proper facilities if at all feasible. In the deputations the committee received I was impressed by the point that people with disabilities want to be treated equally and to have the same access. The points made by Deputies Dempsey, Nealon and McCormack are valid and I hope the Minister will consider them for Report Stage.

Mr. Allen

I understand the Deputies' concerns. However, regarding Deputy Nealon's point, it would be dangerous to allow ballot papers to be marked outside the polling station. It would be open to abuse and there could be many variations in the procedures. In addition, if the presiding officer had to leave the polling station, he or she would have to halt the proceedings inside.

Mr. Nealon

There are difficulties but they are not insurmountable. A certain time, perhaps 15 minutes, could be specified during the day for wheelchair users to vote. It may be possible and I ask the Minister to consider it.

Mr. Allen

I will examine it but I have serious reservations. It would be open to abuse and disabled people might object to their voting being confined to 15 minutes.

With regard to Deputy Dempsey's reservations about count centres, counts should not take place in buildings which are inaccessible to wheelchairs and that view will be made known to returning officers. However, I would like to retain the term "where practicable" because there may be places where buildings are not available. We will look at the matter and come back to it on Report Stage.

Mr. Dempsey

It has been the intention for many years to make all buildings wheelchair accessible. Most counts are held in public buildings and until the Department for the Environment instructs returning officers to carry out counts in wheelchair accessible buildings nothing will be done. This may mean returning officer will have to go to the Department or the local authority and request that the building to be used be made wheelchair accessible. I appeal to the Minister of State to make the regulation.

Mr. Allen

I understand the strength of the Deputy's argument and I will examine the matter for Report Stage.

Chairman

I heard appeals over many years for wheelchair access to Leinster House. When Brian Crowley was nominated to the Seanad those things which we had been told were impossible to do were done. The building we are in now, Kildare House, needs to be made wheelchair accessible. The point being made is valid.

Mr. Nealon

I take the point that the returning officers, with the authority from the Minister, can answer many of these problems dealing with count centres. In addition to catering for those who are disabled or are in wheelchairs, the Minister should insist on count centres being large enough for the numbers who turn up. Many people cannot gain access to count centres. Attending a count is a good exercise in democracy and the Minister should arrange for a compulsory inspection by Department officials in advance of the counting date to ensure the likely demand for spaces will be met. Funding for inadequate facilities should not be sanctioned. It is outrageous that people who wish to see the democratic system working cannot gain access.

Mr. Allen

I will return to the matter on Report Stage.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 51, rule 56(5), between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:

"(i) such other arrangements as may serve to facilitate the marking and placing in the ballot box of ballot papers by voters who are wheelchair users,

(j) such arrangements as the Minister may prescribe as may serve to facilitate voters with visual impairments to mark their ballot papers without assistance.".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment Nos. 26 to 33, inclusive, not moved.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 34:

In page 69, rule 93, between lines 41 and 42, to insert the following paragraph:

"(2) On the expiry of the seventh day after the results of the election have been declared the returning officer shall place in a sealed packet any statutory declarations transmitted to the returning officer in accordance with rule 7(2) and shall mark on the packet particulars of is contents, the date of the polling day at the European election and the constituency to which it relates, and shall as soon as practicable send the packet to the Clerk of the Dáil.".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 35 to 50, inclusive, not moved.

Mr. Allen

I move amendment No. 51:

In page 76, rule 107(g), line 9, after "list" to insert "or any attestation referred to in rule 6 or 19(2)".

This amendment makes it an offence to forge, fraudulently deface or destroy attestations which resident European citizens standing for election are required to obtain from their home states certifying they are not disqualified from standing for election in their home state. Forgery of other documents such as nomination papers is already an offence.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 52 to 57, inclusive, not moved.

Question proposed: "That the Second Schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

Chairman

Is there a restriction on who may be appointed a returning officer? Is it permissible that a close relative of a candidate may be the returning officer?

Mr. Allen

I am told it is the Registrar of the Circuit Courts and the sheriff who appoint all the returning officers. Section 17(i) states:

There shall for the purposes of this Act be a local returning officer for every county or county borough wholly or partly situate in a constituency and the local returning officer shall be—

(a) in the case of the counties of Cork, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin and the county boroughs of Cork and Dublin, the sheriff, and

(b) in every other case, the county registrar.

Chairman

There was a case at the last European elections where a deputy returning officer or the returning officer, I am not sure which, was a brother of one of candidates. It seemed a little odd, to say the least.

Mr. Allen

These are court officials and I am sure they are responsible.

Chairman

If a case came to court and the judge was the brother of the accused he would not hear the case.

Mr. Allen

Rule 26 of the Second Schedule, deals with officers not to act as agents of candidates and it states:

(1) A returning officer, a local returning officer or any person employed by any such officer for any purpose relating to a European election shall not act as an agent for a candidate at that election and shall not be associated in furthering the candidature of a candidate or promoting the interests of a political party at that election.

The returning officer or local returning officer shall not employ in any capacity for the purposes of a European election a person who has been employed by or on behalf of a candidate in the election or has been associated in furthering the candidature of a candidate or promoting the interests of a political party at the election.

Chairman

It is wrong that a spouse or a brother or sister of a candidate is a returning officer, which happened in the last election. No judge would hear a civil or criminal case involving a close relative. This matter should be examined.

Mr. Allen

It would be difficult to prevent a brother or sister of a candidate from taking on such a duty, particularly if they were not politically involved with the candidate.

Chairman

The same rules which apply in a court of law should apply here. Declarations of interest are now required. If there is a close affinity between a candidate and a returning officer, the returning officer should declare his or her interest and not take part in the election.

Mr. Allen

If the returning officer's brother, sister or relative runs in the election, should they be asked not to take part in it? Returning officers are officers of the court or sheriff.

Chairman

Blood is thicker than water. A close relative of a candidate should not qualify to be a returning officer.

Mr. Nealon

A problem arises if the returning officer has to adjudicate on spoiled votes, which could turn an election one way or the other. A returning officer should have to opt out of that function.

Chairman

The returning officer should not be involved if the election results are close or they must make a decision on transfers. This happened in the last election.

Mr. Allen

We are getting into a wider area which is not related to this legislation.

Chairman

In this Schedule we are laying down provisions for the appointment of a returning officer. This matter should be considered on Report Stage. We should try to get this legislation right so that it is not open to court challenges at a future date.

Mr. Allen

We will take advice on this matter.

Chairman

Will the Minister look at it for Report Stage?

Mr. Allen

Yes.

Mr. Dempsey

Will the electoral Bill be introduced in the near future?

Chairman

That Bill deals with finance.

Mr. Allen

It is still being considered by the Minister for the Environment and the Government.

Question put and agreed to.

Third and Fourth Schedules agreed to.

Title agreed to.