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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Thursday, 1 May 1997

SECTION 62.

Amendments Nos. 225 to 227 inclusive may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 225:

In page 46, lines 31 to 34, to delete subsection (2).

These amendments are purely technical in nature. They provide for the deletion of references in other electoral codes which have already been repealed or are being rendered obsolete by the amendment provided in this section.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 226:

In page 46, lines 35 to 38, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) The Act of 1993 is hereby amended by—

(a) the deletion of paragraph (p) of subsection (3) of section 3, and

(b) the substitution in subsection (3) of section 46 of ‘necessary rest refreshment' for ‘refreshment and (except so far as he and the candidates otherwise agree) the period between 11 p.m. and 9 a.m.'.".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 227:

In page 46, after line 42, to insert the following subsection:

"(5) The Referendum Act, 1994, is hereby amended by the deletion of paragraph (x) of subsection (3) of section 2.".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 62, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 228:

In page 46, after line 42, to insert the following new section:

"63.—(1) Section 130 of the Act of 1992 is hereby amended by the deletion of subsection (5) and the substitution of the following subsections:

‘(5) Where an order of a court (including an order under subsection (1)) is made for the production by the Clerk of the Dáil of any document in that officer's possession relating to a Dáil election, the production of that document accompanied by the certificate of the Clerk that the document relates to the specified election shall be prima facie evidence of the fact so certified and it shall not be necessary to prove the signature of the Clerk or the official position of the person signing the certificate. Unless the court so orders, it shall not be necessary for the Clerk to attend in person to attest to any matter relating to the document or certificate.

(6) Any endorsement appearing on any packet produced pursuant to subsection (5) shall be, until the contrary is shown, sufficient evidence that the contents of the packet are as stated in the endorsement.'

(2) Section 20 of the Act of 1997 is hereby amended by the substitution in subsection (5) for "pursuant to this section" of "of a court (including an order under subsection (1)).".

The amendment provides for the insertion in the Electoral Act, 1992 of provisions in relation to the production by the Clerk of the Dáil of documents used in a Dáil election and retained by him under that Act and in relation to the evidential value of such documents. This provision is similar to that included in the recently enacted European Parliament Elections Act, 1994. The new subsection being inserted in section 130 provides for the evidential value of a document produced under a certificate of the Clerk of the Dáil without the necessity for the Clerk to appear in person before the court. I ask the committee to agree to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 229:

In page 46, after line 42, to insert the following new section:

"64. — The Local Elections Regulations, 1995 are hereby amended by the insertion of the following sub-article after sub-article (3) of Article 57:

‘(3A) The returning officer shall, where practicable, give public notice of all polling stations which are inaccessible to wheelchair users not later than the eighth day before polling day.'.".

This amendment provides for the insertion in the Local Elections Regulations, 1995 of a provision corresponding to that inserted in the Electoral Act, 1992 by section 3(1)(b) of the Electoral (Amendment) Act, 1996. This requires that returning officers at the election give public notice of all polling stations which are inaccessible to wheelchair users not later than the eighth day before polling day. This provision already applies to the other electoral codes and I am simply extending it to local government elections. I hope there will be few such premises, if any.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 229a:

In page 46, after line 42, to insert the following new section:

"63.—The Act of 1992 is hereby amended by the insertion in section 110 of the following subsection after subsection (2):

(2A) After the close of the poll and prior to the sealing up in a separate packet of the marked copy of the register of Dáil electors the presiding officer may in his absolute discretion permit the personation agents duly appointed in writing for the station by or on behalf of the candidates to inspect the marked copy of the register of Dáil electors kept for the station.'.".

This amends section 110 of the 1992 Act and addresses a matter raised by the Minister when discussing the turnout at elections. We are all anxious to maximise the turnout but one problem in recent years is that political parties no longer appoint personation agents on a widespread scale to polling places in urban areas. There are few party agents at urban polling places, as distinct from the presiding officer and his or her clerk. Voting is a public act but this has meant that political parties no longer have a record of who has voted in urban areas. There has been a remarkably low turnout in some such areas in recent elections but one way to guarantee a higher turnout is to make it easier for political parties to establish who has voted. I am referring to the position after the close of the poll — I am aware of the arrangement on polling day that there can be no communication from the polling place to the outside world about who has voted.

One reason for this problem is that the cost of engaging a personation agent to attend at each polling station is becoming prohibitive. A person is asked to give 12 or 13 hours — I am not sure what arrangement the Minister envisages on this occasion.

Which occasion?

The occasion envisaged between now and next January. It is difficult to get anyone to give that amount of time. I tabled the amendment so that the presiding officer would be given the option of permitting a personation agent to come into the polling station after the close of poll to inspect the marked copy kept by the presiding officer or the polling clerk. In that way a tally could be kept of who had voted.

While I am well disposed to the concept I have a number of concerns. Some people would be disquieted at an immediate inspection of a marked register by an agent for a candidate. There is no reason for such disquiet because the practice in most urban areas, certainly in my home area, is to have a personation agent marking the register for the full period, so the political party and candidate would have a complete, marked register and would know who had voted. The amendment would not be of any particular benefit that would affect the poll, since the register would be inspected after the close of poll. However, assuming the presiding officer gave such access, there is only one copy and, there might be at least three, possibly five personation agents and there would be no practical way they could go through the register. My experience has been that people want to seal the ballot box and move it out of the building as quickly as possible, because they will have worked a 12 or 13 hour day and would not want to wait to have the marked register inspected.

The amendment is impractical and it would create difficulties. I agree with the principle of having the data available to the political system but it is available to Members of the House subsequently, because all documentation is held in the Dáil subsequent to an election and is available for inspection.

Are the packets not sealed? I do not think they can be opened without an order of the High Court.

The register is not, apparently, among the sealed items. It is the ballot papers which are sealed and cannot be inspected.

Could a Member of the House inspect the Register?

The Clerk of the Dáil will in serious trouble after this.

Can the Minister clarify the situation?

I am informed that section 131 of the 1992 Act provides that documents used at a polling station, other than those which may be inspected under the order of a court, are open to public inspection when they are in the custody of the Clerk of the Dáil under such conditions as may be specified by the Clerk. The documents which may be so inspected are all documents other than counted ballot papers, ballot papers rejected at the count, unused or spoiled ballot papers, counterfoils of ballot papers and various postal voting documents. Marked copies of the register are, therefore, open to public inspection without a court order.

The rule which was introduced on canvassing outside of polling stations some time ago was a very necessary and welcome one because of the harassment factor to voters. However, we have gone over the top with this rule. It is now possible to drive around urban areas on election day and be unaware of the location of polling stations. Can the Minister look at the rule which was introduced from the point of view of reducing the distance — which I think is 100 metres — which canvassers or candidates must be from polling stations? Can he also consider abolishing the rule which prevents a candidate from putting up posters outside a polling station? A poster would not intimidate anybody. There are places in rural areas where this is not a problem but in many urban areas this has given rise to arguments. I understand that in the Dublin West by-election complaints were made——

Investigations were also made.

Garda time was wasted three or four months after the election in relation to the location of posters. That is nonsense.

Those were vexatious complaints and it was ridiculous that the Garda became involved in them.

Since we are not really discussing this issue, and Deputy Dempsey is out of order, I will give my view on the matter. The rule, to which the Deputy referred, was a very welcome one as it prevented voter harassment. Some canvassers seem to measure out 100 metres and stand at that exact point. People should be left alone on election day. The notion of forcing election literature into the hands of people going to the polling station, and who have their minds made up, is counterproductive. People should be allowed to vote in a calm atmosphere. I do not agree that candidates should be allowed to put up a barrage of posters outside polling stations. Before I became a candidate, I remember ridiculous fisticuffs breaking out. People were getting up at five o'clock in the morning to get the prime location outside the polling station. It is very healthy and good to do away with that kind of behaviour.

I acknowledge that people can be unaware of the location of polling stations on election day and we need to issue very clear instructions on this matter. I was disappointed at the level of difficulty experienced in identifying polling stations in the most recent election. It was required that a sign saying "Polling Station" be put up outside the place where the voting was taking place but some of these were minuscule and unclear. I will be as explicit as I can be, that signs should be erected outside polling stations and clear directions given to indicate the way to stations which are not on main thoroughfares. It is important that people know where to vote. I confess that I am not aware of every single voting place in my county and it can be very difficult to find the location of the polling station. I will seek to have such measures in place for future elections.

I do not accept the Minister's view on posters as I do not think they would intimidate the electorate.

Primary legislation would be required to undo that rule.

I thought the rule had been implemented under regulation.

No. It is provided for in the Act.

I have had the experience, as have other people, of people sticking posters in their front gardens opposite polling stations. It is legal to do that.

It is not legal unless it is 100 metres from the polling station on private or public property.

The Garda would not touch the posters as they were on private property. This caused endless hassle.

There is no discrimination between private and public property.

Will the Minister issue clear instructions on this?

There are clear instructions on this. The problem is one of enforcement. Posters must not be located within 100 metres of the curtilage of a place of polling.

The carnival atmosphere of election day has been destroyed by this repressive legislation. This is merely a plot to allow Deputy Ruairí Quinn go to the pictures two days in a row.

One could put up some posters saying "Polling Station" to create some kind of atmosphere.

They should be put at the outer permissible limits.

Would they state that "Fianna Fáil advise you that this is a polling station" or "Noel Dempsey is pleased to advise you that this is a polling station"?

I would object to that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 230 is out of order as it involves a potential charge on the Revenue.

Amendment No. 230 not moved.
TITLE.

I move amendment No. 231:

In page 5, line 7, after "PARTIES" to insert "AND CANDIDATES".

Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.
Report of Select Committee.

I propose the following draft report:

The Select Committee of Finance and General Affairs has considered the Electoral Bill, 1994, has made amendments thereto and has amended the Title. The Bill, as amended, is reported to the Dáil.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Report agreed to.

Ordered to report to the Dáil accordingly.

I thank the Minister and members of the committee for their co-operation.

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for dealing with some of the serious reservations expressed. I found this to be one of the better Committee Stages of a Bill. The Minister has indicated that he will return to us on the major points we made on the earlier part of the Bill——

I will do that in advance of Report Stage.

——to advance the Bill through the House as quickly as possible. I remind him that he gave a commitment on the Public Offices Commission and discussions his Department is due to have with it in light of the fact that Members have a right to check the register. The Minister said he and his departmental officials would talk to the Public Offices Commission and the Clerk of the Dáil about staffing. I would like to be informed of the outcome of those discussions. Perhaps the other major area we had a long discussion on — the registration of political parties — can be discussed before Report Stage.

Chairman, I thank you for your forbearance over the many days of discussion on this Bill and Deputy Connor who took the chair in your absence. I also thank the Deputies who participated in this debate, which has been a good one. I was concerned it would be contentious and would not deal with the relevant issues. However, it has been a fruitful debate which clarified the issues involved line by line.

The Government's decision which I announced to the committee this morning will give time to address the issue of the Public Offices Commission which Deputy Dempsey was concerned about. We have several months to work out the detail of staffing and resources. It is my intention that the Public Offices Commission, given this new responsibility and others which have been devolved to it, will be an important public commission supervising the operation of politics. It will obviously have to be resourced in a manner commensurate with that responsibility.

The Select Committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m.

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