SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 2000

Vol. 3 No. 4

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised).

Vote 5 - Central Statistics Office (Revised).

Vote 13 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised).

Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised).

Vote 18 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised).

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee I wish to welcome the Taoiseach, the Minister for State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Séamus Brennan, and their officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Estimates falling with the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach, namely Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach, Vote 5 - Central Statistics Office, Vote 13 - Office of the Attorney General, Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and Vote 18 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

A proposed timetable for today's meeting has been circulated. It will allow for opening statements by the Taoiseach, the Minister of State, and Opposition spokespersons, followed by open discussion on the Votes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Taoiseach

I thank you, Chairman, and the committee for receiving the Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach for 2000. I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee to discuss the Estimates for my Department and the associated offices, the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Chief State Solicitor's Office and the Central Statistics Office.

I am accompanied by the Government Chief Whip and Minister of State at my Department, Deputy Séamus Brennan, who will deal with matters relating to the Central Statistics Office. As you are aware, Chairman, the Minister of State is also chairman of the National Millennium Committee.

The activities outlined in the Estimate for my Department reflect the central role it plays in advancing the priorities of the Government. I would like to outline to the committee the key objectives and projects which will be progressed and are progressing during this year.

The situation in Northern Ireland remains of paramount importance to us. If there are any questions on that issue I will deal with them later, rather than taking up the committee's time now. As regards the commemoration and reconciliation initiatives, my Department is involved in supporting a range of projects which aim to promote commemoration and reconciliation in the island. Under subhead C the amount of £600,000 has been allocated for grants under the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Act, 1988. Subhead E contains an allocation of £120,000 for commemoration initiatives.

Although the sums involved are relatively small, we have been able to give valuable support to a range of worthy projects in recent years. These have included projects to commemorate the Insurrection of 1798, the Great Famine and the Irish dead of World War I, as well as projects that have a more modern focus, such as the Irish studies programme in the University of Liverpool.

As regards the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, £80,000 is allocated in subhead D, which is primarily intended to allow for the contingency of meeting and printing requirements of the forum. All of our focus is wholly concentrated on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The question of future meetings of the forum will be kept under review.

A new subhead O is being introduced to allow for the costs associated with the Independent Commission of Inquiry under the chairmanship of the former Chief Justice, Mr. Liam Hamilton, into the 1974 bombings in Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk and their sequel.

Turning to economic and social policy, my Department plays a lead role, principally through the social partnership process. Officials from my Department chaired and serviced the negotiations on the new partnership agreement, the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness. This programme, the fifth in a series going back to 1987, is the most ambitious agreement yet. Working alongside the Government's own programme and the national development plan, it sets out to build on the highly impressive progress of recent years, identifies the key challenges facing our economy and society and provides mechanisms through which such challenges might most effectively be met.

The social partnership process has made an enormous contribution to the country's transformation. This is particularly evident in the areas of employment creation and unemployment reduction. For example, in the two years to the fourth quarter of 1999, the numbers at work increased by just over 175,000, an average of 6% per annum. The vast bulk of this increase has been in private sector employment. With regard to unemployment, the downward trend has continued. In the 12 month period to the fourth quarter of 1999, unemployment fell by nearly 16,000 - of which 90% was accounted for by a fall in long-term unemployment. At the end of March this year, the standardised unemployment rate had declined to 4.7%, well ahead of the 5% target for end-year 2000 set out in last year's employment action plan.

Social partnership was crucial in enabling such positive developments to happen. The stability engendered by the process, especially with regard to incomes, fiscal and monetary policies, set the context for many of the impressive achievements in recent years. As with any process, an inbuilt dynamic to respond flexibly to new challenges is a key requirement. The Programme for Prosperity and Fairness has such a dynamic. In particular, many of its provisions are intended to deal with emerging supply-side constraints. Success in that regard will be fundamentally contingent on adherence to the terms of the programme and on the continued pursuit of stability-oriented policies, which are all the more necessary because of our EMU membership and the increasingly globalised economy. Through the partnership process, there is every reason to contend that further significant progress can be made over the lifetime of the new programme.

A key function of my Department is the development of national economic and social strategy. Subhead B provides funding of £470,000 for the National Economic and Social Council. The NESC has, since its foundation in 1973, played a key role in this process, including, most recently, helping to lay the foundations for the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness.

In subhead I, there is an allocation of £514,000 for the National Economic and Social Forum. Since its foundation in 1993, the NESF has made a significant contribution to the formation of a wider national consensus on economic and social policy issues. Since the middle of last year, both the NESF and NESC have been located in the same offices. My Department is currently preparing a Bill to establish an Office for Economic and Social Development to co-ordinate their activities.

Subhead H provides funding of £480,000 for the National Centre for Partnership this year. Since it was established in May 1997, the centre has worked to foster partnership arrangements in the workplace. The centre's work programme is being actively pursued with assistance from IBEC, ICTU and other relevant organisations. The Programme for Prosperity and Fairness proposes to place the centre within the new Office for Economic and Social Development. It will be called the National Centre for Partnership and Performance and will have an enhanced role in supporting the deepening of partnership. Following consultations with IBEC and ICTU, proposals will be made to Government on the detailed arrangements to be put in place to give effect to the strengthened institutional structures required.

Good progress continues to be made under the Strategic Management Initiative, the programme of change in the public service. As set out in Delivering Better Government, the key objective is the achievement of an excellent service for the Government and the public as customers and clients at all levels, building on the good service that is already being provided. The all-party committee on SMI, chaired by Deputy Roche, continues to monitor progress. It is funded from subhead M of the Vote and has an allocation of £225,000 for this year.

The Estimate for my Department includes significant amounts in respect of the McCracken and Moriarty tribunals. As Deputies will be aware, the McCracken tribunal completed its work in 1997. Funds are provided in the 2000 Estimates, however, for the payment of costs awarded by Mr. Justice McCracken to parties who appeared before the tribunal. To date, claims from 22 parties have been received. However, there are still a number of parties who were granted representation at the tribunal who have not yet claimed their costs. Provision is made for this in the current year. It is not possible to say with any certainty when all claims and costs in relation to this tribunal will be received, given the previous experience of the beef and hepatitis C tribunals. The cost of the McCracken tribunal to date is £5 million.

The Moriarty tribunal, which was established in September 1997, is continuing its work. Legal challenges to the tribunal in the High Court and Supreme Court in 1998 inevitably delayed its work. The tribunal has had 69 public sittings to date. In addition it is engaged in extensive research and investigative work. The cost of the Moriarty tribunal to date is £4 million.

In subhead K an allocation of £45,000 is made for the territorial employment pacts. This will be matched by EU funding. The four pacts supported in Ireland are in Dublin, Limerick city, Westmeath, Drogheda and Dundalk.

An allocation of £250,000 has been made for the All-Party Committee on the Constitution. As Deputies will be aware, the committee, under the chairmanship of Deputy Brian Lenihan, has been active in reviewing a range of constitutional issues. The committee secretariat is provided by the Institute of Public Administration, with funding from my Department.

A total of £30 million of Exchequer funding is being made available through my Department's Vote for suitable millennium projects during the period 1999 to 2000. An allocation of £23.2 million is proposed in this year's Estimate. This represents the unspent balance of the overall allocation and relates mainly to capital projects. The National Millennium Committee, which is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Séamus Brennan, was established at the end of 1998. The work of the committee is supported by a small millennium office which has been established within my Department. This office is also responsible for the co-ordination of the Government's overall millennium programme.

My Department is centrally involved in developing the potential of the information society in Ireland. The blueprint for doing this is set out in the Government's action plan which was published last year. The action plan's measures and initiatives span the full range of the various Departments and agencies.

A policy development team in my Department assists the cross-departmental implementation group of assistant secretaries general in implementing the provisions of the action plan. It also ensures that policy in this area is co-ordinated, developed and disseminated appropriately. In order to assist the implementation of action plan initiatives, a special dedicated fund, this year amounting to £30 million, has been put in place. This fund, of which about 50% has already been allocated to projects, is administered by the Department of Finance.

Among the key developments under the action plan are e-commerce business awareness campaigns; the roll-out of broadband infrastructure to the regions; the e-commerce Bill will be enacted after Easter and other legislation in relevant areas is progressing; the technology foresight fund will invest £560 million in ICTs and biotechnology; Revenue is progressing with its "Revenue on-line" service; free public Internet access is being provided in public libraries; FÁS has put an on-line labour market service in place; guidelines for public service websites have been published; e-recruitment and e-procurement services are being developed for the public service, as are systems of on-line driving test applications and planning systems information; and a project to apply the benefits of modern technologies to the Cabinet process is about to commence.

These are just a few of the initiatives in the action plan. Full details are available in the latest progress report which was published on my Department's website last week. The ultimate objective of the action plan is the delivery, in due course, of fully integrated public services on line.

Subhead G of the Vote provides funding of £560,000 for the Information Society Commission. The commission was established in 1997 with a remit to monitor and advise the Government on the development of an information society in Ireland. It will carry out a range of activities this year which will continue to build public awareness of the information society, as well as assisting policy makers to respond to emerging challenges and to benchmark this country's progress against the highest international standards.

As part of the goal of developing Ireland as a world class centre for e-business, the Government has agreed to establish a new research and development institute in partnership with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This new institute, MediaLab Europe, will be located in a new multimedia village which will be a centre for companies operating in the emerging digital economy. Subhead P of the Vote provides funding of £31 million for multimedia developments in the current year.

In order to ensure full co-ordination, rapid implementation and the input of relevant external expertise, the Government has agreed to establish a new body to develop the multimedia village location and to provide the State's input to development of MediaLab Europe, including provision of funding in line with the agreement with MIT. Negotiations regarding acquisition of suitable property are already under way. These projects are expected to create a highly visible international presence for Ireland in the new digital economy, leading to increased investment in high value activity by multinationals and greater domestic innovation and entrepreneurship.

The 2000 Estimate provides £10 million for the initial development costs of Sports Campus Ireland. This will be a world class facility for sporting excellence which will have as its centrepiece an 80,000 all-seated national stadium capable of accommodating all field sports. This commitment by the State will provide sports organisations with a state of the art facility, superior to any facility that they could individually fund, while relieving such organisations of the burden of capital funding. It will establish Ireland as a potential location for international games, with the associated strategic, economic and tourism benefits. It will be a symbol of our social and economic success as we enter a new millennium.

The Estimate of the Office of the Attorney General is £7.169 million. This provides for the operating costs of the office and general law expenses. It includes a grant-in-aid of £906,000 for the Law Reform Commission.

The Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is £10.341 million. This is an increase of £326,000 on last year's outturn. The Director of Public Prosecutions' Vote provides for the salaries and expenses of the director and his staff, fees to counsel engaged by the director to prosecute cases in the various courts and legal costs awarded against the State arising out of judicial review and other legal proceedings.

The Estimate for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is £19.955 million. This is an increase of £1.436 million on last year's outturn. The Vote provides for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. The main elements of the increase relate to costs associated with extra staff and additional office space, increased expenses for local State solicitors and the continued increase in the volume and costs of litigation.

We can look back on enormous achievements in all areas of our national life in recent years. We are committed to continue to work to consolidate and build on those achievements, with the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness and the national development plan which are the cornerstones of our approach. My Department and its associated offices will continue to make a significant contribution to the Government's work in that regard.

I am delighted to be in a position to bring forward Revised Estimates which reflect our success as a nation and which show us building confidently for the future. I, therefore, commend the Estimates to the committee.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. S. Brennan)

The Central Statistics Office is responsible for the collecting, processing and disseminating of official statistics on economic and social conditions in Ireland. While the CSO's main focus is on the statistical requirements of Government, there is a very wide community of users nationally, such as the social partners, various public bodies, business interests, universities, research institutes and the general public. Therefore, its services are widely used. There is also a significant international dimension to the work of the CSO, particularly in relation to statutory obligations which have arisen from our membership of the EU. Net expenditure in 1999 amounted to £17.655 million. The 2000 net Estimate allocation is £22.514 million.

Apart from its regular activities such as the consumer price index, the various business statistics programmes and the quarterly national household survey, the CSO carries out a number of periodic censuses and surveys which have a cyclical impact on its expenditure. The 2000 allocation includes provision for two such surveys, the household budget survey and the census of agriculture.

The household budget survey commenced in June 1999 and will conclude in June of this year. The census of agriculture will take place in June 2000. This will be a postal survey of approximately 200,000 farms. This census will be mainly self-financing because the EU will be contributing £1.3 million towards the cost.

The CSO is currently preparing for the census of population in April 2001 and its work is well advanced. The office is engaged in recruiting a field force to carry out the census. The speed of recruitment will increase in September 2000 and continue in the spring of 2001. The number of staff currently employed by the CSO is 565. This figure includes staff recruited for the household budget survey, the census of agriculture and the census of population.

I thank the Chairman for providing me with this opportunity to explain the work of the CSO to the committee.

Mr. Noonan

I thank the Taoiseach and the Minister of State for their informative contributions and I thank the officials for the preliminary information with which we were provided in respect of the Estimate, which was quite helpful.

I agree with the part of the Taoiseach's speech which he did not read but which refers to the importance of the Northern Ireland issue. He remarked that significant progress continues to be made. If we consider certain elements of the Agreement, it is obvious progress continues to be made, but we all share the disappointment that the Executive has been stood down. Personally, I have doubts about the manner in which it was stood down and whether this was necessary at the time. We are hopeful that agreement can be reached between now and 22 May.

My party believes that a new basis will have to be found for providing cross-community assurances that the war is over. We have advocated, by way of Dáil motion, that the paramilitary organisations should be requested to sign on to the Mitchell principles. The political parties associated with the paramilitary organisations have subscribed to the Mitchell principles. Rather than trying to introduce a new formula at this point, if the Provisional IRA and the loyalist paramilitary organisations were to subscribe to the Mitchell principles, this might be a way forward and a formula for cross-community agreement. We also believe the British Government should make a commitment that if the Executive is reinstated, it will not unilaterally set it aside. It is important that such a commitment be given because we cannot have, in what many of us would regard as an international agreement, one side taking unilateral action, regardless of the benevolence of the principles involved. I know the Taoiseach will probably come back to this issue after Easter in the Dáil and that he will keep us all informed of it. In putting forward proposals along the lines of the Fine Gael proposal in the Dáil motion, we are not departing from the principle of bilateralism in regard to either the Good Friday Agreement or in Anglo-Irish relations.

I have one criticism. Since Deputy David Andrews left the Department of Foreign Affairs, the relationship with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State is not as good as it had been, and the Taoiseach might pay some attention to that matter. There are comments in the public domain, both from the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and the Secretary of State, Mr. Mandelson, which have not helped the relationship. The strength and closeness of the relationship between the sovereign Governments is a prerequisite to progress. That is a matter that should receive ongoing attention from both the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

To move on to the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department, while the Taoiseach has the most important job in the country, one would not always think that on reading the Estimate, that it is, ultimately, a small enough Department. On the staff and salaries section, perhaps later the Taoiseach might take us through the number of staff he introduced from outside the Department when he took up office in terms of advisers, helpers, assistants, press and constituency people. There seems to have been quite a good deal of movement in and out of the Taoiseach's Department - certainly out - in terms of personal helpers, if I could give them a kind of generic title. Will the Taoiseach indicate if they have been replaced, and by whom? Were they replaced by civilians or by public servants in the Department?

The Taoiseach referred to the importance of social partnership, something with which we would agree. The budget did not contribute to a sound foundation for a new social partnership agreement. The tax relief given to the low paid was too meagre and we will all live to regret it, especially as the inflation figures now suggest that the first instalment of the wage increase in the year 2000 will be eroded by the increase in the cost of living. The 4.6% annual figure for March, together with the 5% increase, if we measure it by way of the European harmonised index, is a significant increase and if it were to continue throughout the year, a 5.5% wage increase subject to income tax would be more than cancelled out by a cost of living increase of 5%, especially when it is central items that have increased in price. Clothing, footwear, transport and mortgages are unavoidable expenses in most homes. If the position of the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance is that which was communicated in recent comments, they are not taking the issue of inflation seriously enough.

Inflation will decrease as the year goes on but the likelihood is that by mid-summer, inflation will still be at 4% or slightly more and annually inflation will be around the 4% figure. That will tend to erode the wage agreement and the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and all the members of the Cabinet are well aware of the demands that are coming along the track, particularly from public service workers who feel they are not sharing in the full benefits of the prosperous economy and that the only way they can share in those benefits is by pressing for more wages, since low income workers did not get that much of an increase in the wage agreement.

The Central Statistics Office does a good job. How much information will be accessible on its website? Also, increasingly we seem to be looking at two sets of figures - CSO and European figures. This applies to national accounting systems and to inflation and labour force figures. We are trying to come into line with European labour force figures but there seems to be an Irish way of measuring economic progress; one is by gathering statistics and the other is the European way but there is confusion when one set of numbers is compared to another set of numbers. Is there an ongoing programme of harmonisation between the two, and will we move to the European base for most of the vital statistics?

I do not agree with the Taoiseach on the strategic management initiative. I know he has nominated a day in May for a full roll-out but it appears to me that the initiative has not worked. Key people in the Government and in the public service are not enthusiastic about it and a great deal needs to be done in the area of the Civil Service and the wider public service. If we compare the private sector to the public sector and the public service, the gap continues to widen. I thought the strategic management initiative would make more improvements than it has done. I would like the Taoiseach to say more about that because it appears not to be delivering in the manner in which one would have thought it would have delivered.

The Taoiseach referred to a number of matters to which I would like him to return in the question and answer session. I will indicate them now so that briefing notes can be prepared. What progress is being made in the inquiry by the former Chief Justice into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? Is the Taoiseach waiting for a full report at the end of the inquiry or is he being briefed on an ongoing basis on this matter? It has implications for the Good Friday Agreement, in its wider sense, and a full resolution of the matter is part of the conciliation process which is necessary, both North and South.

In that context, I do not know whether the commission headed by the former Tánaiste, John Wilson, set up to locate the bodies of the disappeared, is within the Taoiseach's Department but it was a less successful initiative than we had hoped. Is the commission extant or will it return to activity at some stage in the near future?

By way of question and answer I will deal with the offices of the Attorney General, the Chief State Solicitor and the Director of Public Prosecutions because my time is exhausted.

Chairman

Before calling on Deputy McDowell to make his contribution, I would comment that perhaps the relationship changed when Mo Mowlam left rather than when Deputy David Andrews left.

Mr. McDowell

I join Deputy Noonan in thanking the Taoiseach and the Minister of State for coming to the meeting. It is an annual opportunity for me and Deputy Noonan to pretend that we are party leaders and to stray beyond what would normally be our brief, in the privacy of the committee room.

On occasion the Taoiseach has been criticised for using something called "Bertie speak" and speaking in a language which can mean many things to many people. Reading the section on multimedia developments, and listening to the Taoiseach, I wonder whether we are speaking the same language at all. I have not got the remotest idea what this means and what this multimedia village is supposed to be. Is this a real cluster of industries or a cyberspace notion? What is it? What does it do? Who is involved in it? How are we funding it? What is this money being spent on? What is the digital economy? Are we talking about broadcasting? It is one of those things perhaps one should not admit to not understanding. This paragraph is beyond me. If the Taoiseach can shed any light on it, I will be happy to hear what he has to say. It seems to involve a fair measure of funding.

With regard to Northern Ireland, I agree with Deputy Noonan that there is a problem in the relationship between the Secretary of State and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and their respective Departments. They have spent the past two or three weeks trying to adopt a joint approach to matters. I wish them well in that. There is a perception among the parties in Northern Ireland other than Sinn Féin that the Department of Foreign Affairs has become softer on Sinn Féin. Some of them worry out loud whether the Department is not so concerned to keep Sinn Féin on board that it is effectively, to borrow a phrase, allowing the train to travel at the speed of the slowest passenger. Regrettably sooner or later we will have to face up to the likelihood that Sinn Féin cannot bring each and every member of its organisation or of the IRA with it. It is a matter of fine judgment as to when that point is reached. The Taoiseach and others are privy to more information and intelligence on that matter than I am, but nonetheless we have to acknowledge explicitly that sooner or later that judgment call will have to be made.

I was in Belfast with my party Leader on Monday. I sense that many of the parties are beginning to feel excluded from the loop. They told us they do not feel they are being kept sufficiently informed not only by the Irish Government but by both Governments. The more the focus is on Sinn Féin and the Ulster Unionists as the two parties that have to be brought together, the more other parties are excluded from the process and inevitably suffer because of it. We all have a vested interest in maintaining the position of the SDLP within the Nationalist community as the party which largely devised the Good Friday Agreement.

I gather the Governments are trying to deal with the normalisation agenda with a view to allowing the provisional IRA to make some statement, which in turn might make it possible for David Trimble and the UUP to move closer to reinstating the institutions. The Taoiseach might be able confirm that. If that is what is happening, I wish everybody involved in that process luck. The Taoiseach might want to say more on that, although he spoke on that matter when replying to questions in the Dáil in recent days.

I do not share the Taoiseach's optimism about the SMI. We are facing serious trouble on that issue. The Civil Service is facing a challenge it has not faced in my lifetime. It is becoming a less attractive place for people to work. It is becoming more difficult to get people to join the Civil Service and more difficult to retain people within in. There are some excellent people within the Civil Service who have given years of public service. Some of them are critical of the way the service works and others are wed to it. We are finding it increasingly difficult to retain what has been a good civil and public service over the years because the attractions in terms of work conditions and the flexibility of input in the private sector are beginning to outweigh the conditions in the Civil Service in a serious way.

The SMI is important in terms of dealing with this in that it should allow flexibility in terms of entry to the service both in terms of age, qualification, experience and allowing people to take a career break for two or three years. We need that flexibility and it should be introduced soon, otherwise we will not be able to fill positions and retain staff in the service. That is a critical part of the SMI.

When I became finance spokesperson of the Labour Party two and a half years ago, the Minister for Finance told us he expected to have agreement within months on performance initiatives in terms of the programme about which the Taoiseach spoke. There have been difficulties with the Association of Higher Civil Servants in particular and I understand the reasons for that, but it requires a direct and a personal input from the Taoiseach to move forward this process because without such input that will not happen. There is perhaps an understandable distrust of the Department of Finance. That was one of the reasons the Taoiseach's Department took something of a lead role on the issue in the first place, but it is necessary, even at this late stage, for the Taoiseach to take a grip on this issue and to deal with it because it is becoming critical. When responding to that, he might give us some indication beyond what is in the text of the programme as to how he envisages the benchmarking process set out in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, working in practice.

On the NESC and the various advice bodies in place, as the Chairman will recall, we had an opportunity recently to speak with some people working in the NESC. I put a question to them about the value of their work and the way in which it impacted on what the Government decided to do. None of us over-estimates, least of all the people who work in the NESC, the impact they expect to have, but I am not clear that the two meet in any reasonable way. As the Taoiseach will be aware, the NESC produced a report some weeks before the budget, which recommended a particular approach to taxation matters. The content of the budget did not suggest that any attention had been paid to that. I do not have a difficulty with the fact that the Government appears to have rejected the advice of the NESC, but this was not apparent on the face of it from the input from the civil servants representing the Departments of the Taoiseach, Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Finance and Social Community and Family Affairs during the course of the formulation of the NESC report. This is reflected more and more in the way the Government is working, particularly within the Department of Finance, where there is a discursive process into which the Minister does not appear to have an input and when a decision is finally made it does not appear to have been informed by the decisions-making process that took place previously. That is a problem. The process differs substantially from the way previous Governments have gone about their business.

I do not understand why the Estimate for Sports Campus Ireland should come under the Taoiseach's Department rather than under the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. The Taoiseach might explain that. That it comes under his Department gives us an opportunity to explore the present position. The Taoiseach might indicate whether he has had further dealings with the FAI and whether this matter has been decided. Does he consider Eircom Park is a guaranteed reality? I asked the Minister for Finance about its costing recently, but I did not get very far. The explicit committed figure is in the region of £280 million with an admitted £80 million plus to be provided for the relocation of existing services from the campus. As the Taoiseach will be aware, it is acknowledged in the report recommending the setting of the stadium that there is a typical overrun of anything up to 70% in terms of these figures, so we are talking about up to £0.5 billion. I agree with the Taoiseach that this country needs a national stadium and given the state of our national finances, this is the time to provide one. I wonder whether the necessary degree of consultation on it took place in advance and whether a cost of £0.5 billion represents value for money even within the context of the current finances available.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputies Noonan and McDowell for their supportive comments on Northern Ireland matters. I hope to have another meeting tomorrow and then there will a break over the Easter period and the process will resume after it. The two Governments are close to what we would see as a way of making progress. This is an inclusive process and it is not only an issue for us to agree if we cannot bring everyone involved along with us. The effort is to try to bring all the parties along with us.

The main protagonists in the difficulties over the past 12 months are Sinn Féin and the UUP. While we achieved success as a result of the Mitchell review, that progress slipped back after 11 February. While it may be perceived that those protagonists get more attention, that is where the difficulties lie on one side and on the other. The Prime Minister Mr. Blair and I have endeavoured all the way through to keep in touch with all the parties. The Prime Minister met all the parties yesterday. Over the last fortnight, I have met them all except the UDP. Not many weeks go by in which I do not meet members of the SDLP. I am in touch with them on a regular basis. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs are in touch with them as well. With regard to who we would meet most often, there is no doubt that it is members of the SDLP.

Sometimes when I meet the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, and people are not at the meeting, they think there is something afoot or that there is a new initiative. Many times I have wished they were right but often they are meetings to report progress, to review matters and to keep things moving. It is often suggested that we hold round table meetings but, frankly, it takes several days, if not weeks, to pick up after them. They are not as conducive to harmony as is sometimes suggested.

The round table meeting is thought to be a good idea. Although I am in favour of meeting people, the reality is that the parties prefer the bilateral meetings and we have to keep doing that. Even though it is sometimes long and exhausting, it is necessary to do it. There are examples in the past of the consequences of people being refused meetings. I have adopted a system that whenever they look for a meeting at short notice, I meet them. Even if it is not always productive, it keeps people informed and in touch. We will continue to do that.

As I said in the House during the week, it centres on how to ensure that, if the Executive is set up again, we can generate cross-community confidence, that there will be progress on decommissioning and that there will be a resolution to that issue which is to everybody's satisfaction. Deputy Noonan outlined his concept with regard to the Mitchell principles. I have no difficulty with the Mitchell principles. Of course, as the Deputy correctly pointed out, the paramilitaries never signed up to those principles but they did not sign up to the Good Friday Agreement either. That should be remembered. They have never indicated their support for the agreement although the parties linked to them have. That has always been a difficulty.

We know what we need to do and what is required. It is a matter of getting a satisfactory resolution to those issues which is agreeable to all the parties, not just to the Governments. We will continue to work on that.

Mr. McDowell

Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the two Governments are working from the same hymn sheet?

The Taoiseach

Yes, there is no doubt about that. There were tensions around 11 February, particularly on 11 February. We did not agree with what happened on that date. There was another alternative which I do not believe got adequate consideration. However, I do not want to go back over it. I hope we will have learnt from it for the future.

Mr. McDowell

Does the Taoiseach think it is possible to get that alternative back on the table?

The Taoiseach

It is. There are two parts to this. The Secretary of State moved very quickly whereas our preferred option was a review without suspension. There had to be a review but without suspension. Although it was not my stated position, I could have understood if the review had had a time limit. If it had been a review with no suspension but with a time limit and the review had to work, I would have seen sense in it although I was not recommending it. The move that took place just collapsed everything in midstream.

On the other side, my officials and officials from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Foreign Affairs had spent 13 days, night and day, trying to get the republican movement to give a response. The response finally came at 3 a.m. on the last day in Belfast. It would have been so helpful if it had come a few days earlier so I am not putting all the blame on one person. However, we finally got something. It was not enough but it was certainly progress.

Clearly, there was tension on that day. As far as I was concerned it was no good talking about it 24 hours later. Others continued to talk about it for several weeks but I did not see much point in that. I said what I had to say in the Dáil. There have been many ups and downs about the North in recent years through successive Governments and we must keep working on it. I appreciate Deputy Noonan's comments about the consultative approach. It has proved immensely successful in bringing things forward. I practised it in government, and I am acknowledged for it, and in opposition.

With regard to former Chief Justice Hamilton's investigation, it is ongoing. I am not being kept up to date each week because he is now going through all the files from the Garda Síochána and the Department, the reports and books that were written, the recordings and so forth. He had hoped to go through all the information by the summer holidays. Maybe there is more information than he anticipated. I wish to put on record his huge commitment to this task. He is putting in long days and devoting much time and commitment to it. I appreciate that.

Mr. McDowell

Is he getting co-operation from the Northern or British authorities?

The Taoiseach

At this stage he is mainly working on our files. As always with this issue, there has been difficulty getting co-operation in the North. I am sure he will hit that again. He is a tough man. If anything has to be got, I have no doubt Liam Hamilton will get it.

Mr. McDowell

It will surely require some form of intergovernmental agreement to get access to the information.

The Taoiseach

We have asked both the NIO and the British Government to co-operate fully.

Mr. McDowell

Did you get a response?

The Taoiseach

I think they will co-operate. The Deputy knows that the British Government does not communicate any information from its intelligence service and will not comment on what is available in its intelligence service. It is a different system from ours. It will never comment on its intelligence service or anything it has or does. Previous efforts to investigate many things have come to nought in terms of receiving co-operation on these matters. However, try and try again. We co-operated on the Bloody Sunday tribunal and we continue to do so. I hope that forms a basis of receiving more co-operation. In so far as we have anything the former Chief Justice requires, we will provide it.

With regard to John Wilson's investigations, an enormous amount of work was done last year in terms of searching, digging and trying to locate the bodies of the missing people. Some were found but, unfortunately, the information on the others was either not good enough or geological circumstances have changed and the expected finds did not happen. In some cases, there had been construction in or near the sites, some sites were built on over the years and that has caused grave difficulties.

More information has been given, as I said in the House in reply to a question from Deputy Currie who has been active on this issue for many years. More digs will take place this year on the basis of what is believed to be credible information. They have received information which they have tried to firm up in order to avoid involving the Garda in time consuming digs that lead nowhere. Where they believe they have hard information, they will dig again this summer. That is due to start after Easter in some locations.

With regard to staff issues, there has been movement over the past three years among my staff. At least two of the people who would have been considered outsiders and who have departed, have been replaced by civil servants. A third has been replaced by an adviser who would be considered an outsider, but is already in another Department, having just moved. Another member of my staff who is a civil servant in my constituency offices, has also taken leave but has now left and has been replaced by a civil servant. So, by and large, they have been replaced by civil servants.

There have been many more staff movements of civil servants which is in line with what Deputies Noonan and McDowell were saying. That is a feature of business nowadays. Far more of them leave - I am glad to say, from their point of view - for substantially more lucrative jobs outside the Civil Service. I suppose that is the benefit of a booming economy. The excellent skills of staff in the Civil Service are appreciated by the private sector which can offer far higher salaries than we can give them. That applies to all levels of staff.

Overall, my personal staff levels are in line with that of my predecessors. In addition to my personal secretary, who is a civil servant, I also have the services of a programme manager, two advisers and a speech co-ordinator, who is a civil servant. There have been some changes, as I have mentioned.

Mr. McDowell

Before the Taoiseach moves away from the issue of movements in and out of his office, the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, in reply to questions a few months ago - it is certainly on the Dáil record - indicated that he was having some work done within his Department on guidelines placing constraints on what individuals who come into Departments and leave would be entitled to do. This might involve some obligations on the exchange of information or the jobs they may be entitled to do. Has that idea progressed and has the Minister for Finance kept the Taoiseach informed of it? What is the Taoiseach's own view?

The Taoiseach

I know that the Minister for Finance has undertaken work on this issue. It is a matter which, to the best of my knowledge, concerns the limits to contracts that people sign. The Minister has done some work on this and to the best of my knowledge it has been completed. He has certainly examined the contracts issue. He has also done work on the Civil Service code of conduct. The Deputy is talking about people who are not civil servants.

Mr. McDowell

I am talking about the relatively new phenomenon of people who have acted as advisers leaving before the end of the Government's term of office and taking up positions in which they are explicitly advising people how they should deal with Government. They obviously have much background information as to what the priorities of individual Ministers are or what the programme for Government requires.

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. McDowell

This is an almost entirely new phenomenon. We have had people doing that sort of work in the past but the move over has been slower and usually happens when the Government has ceased to hold power. We have now seen people leaving during the Government's term of office.

The Taoiseach

Yes. I do not think that is covered by this code of conduct. However, the Minister for Finance has certainly tightened up the matter of staff contracts. I am not sure whether it fully covers the Deputy's point as regards restricting people from working in areas they previously worked in.

Mr. McDowell

The Minister for Finance indicated that he was examining this matter.

The Taoiseach

This morning, as the Deputy knows, I stated that I am in agreement with looking at the entire area of what lobbyists do and the idea of establishing a register for them. That is an area where we could also tie down the details. Personally, I feel it is in the interests of politicians to have all these matters tied down.

Mr. McDowell

In other jurisdictions there is a prohibition on people acting as lobbyists for a three or four year period after they cease to be directly employed by Government.

The Taoiseach

I am not too sure about that. In other countries they certainly move very rapidly from one job to another. I am thinking about the results of the last British general election, when many of them turned up in new incarnations not too long afterwards.

Mr. McDowell

That is true.

The Taoiseach

I have no problem in examining this area because there is a protection for Ministers and other politicians in having the issue defined, if it can be defined. The problem in other jurisdictions is how to define it. We should, however, make an effort to do so.

I would like to say a few words about multimedia issues. I do not claim to be the country's number one expert in e-commerce, although I spend much time dealing with the issue because the work of the Information Society Commission was based in my Department when I took office. The commission co-ordinates the relevant activities across Government Departments and agencies. I have spent a few years getting a good education on all these matters, covering all kinds of areas from connectivity to the global cross, and farming that around the country, as well as all the initiatives I mentioned in the action plan. The latest one is the foresight technology report and £2 billion will be spent on research and development. In addition, £560 million - an enormous amount of money - has been earmarked in that area. That has arisen from a position where we used to spend nothing. Not too many years ago the spending figure for this entire area was zero.

MediaLab Europe is a research and development institute specialising in all forms of Internet and digital applications for industry. The project is being developed by the Government in partnership with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It is modelled on the institute's world famous media laboratory, led by Mr. Nicholas Negroponte. The fact that they are coming here is seen internationally as a huge coup for this country.

Many countries wanted to attract the MediaLab but for particular reasons Mr. Negroponte and his senior people wanted to become involved here, mainly because they saw that so much is happening. Ireland is now the biggest software exporter in the world. An enormous amount of information technology is produced locally and all the big multinational companies are based here. This development concerns what is happening in our universities and the relationship between industry and the State. For all those reasons, Mr. Negroponte wanted to be located here. He is familiar with this country and has come here as a guest speaker at international conferences on many occasions.

MediaLab Europe will be a third level institution with undergraduate and postgraduate students. They will study there and work on their projects in the hope of graduating and also producing successful ventures.

Mr. McDowell

Where will it be based?

The Taoiseach

The site has not yet been chosen. I do not wish to mislead the committee, however, because they are focusing in on one particular location in Dublin.

Mr. McDowell

It is not in the Taoiseach's constituency or mine by any chance?

The Taoiseach

No, unfortunately, although it is not too far away. Once it has been established, the bulk of its operating revenue will come from industry sponsorship of its activities. Under the agreement with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the State will make a premises available for MediaLab Europe, and will provide £28 million in funding over the first four years of its operation. MediaLab Europe's overall revenue for the first ten years is projected as of now at £130 million. The bulk of that will come from industry sponsors. Annual revenues are projected to grow to about £18.5 million by year ten. The plan fits into thess overall technology foresight project, aimed at trying to broaden and build up quality research in areas such as information and communication technology.

I think it would be useful to go into a bit more detail. MediaLab Europe will model exactly the approach by MediaLab at the MIT. Interested parties typically join pools of consortia of sponsors, rather than having exclusive rights over an item of research. Groups of three, four, five or six companies work together to try to follow up on one item of research. The value of this is that each sponsor obtains access to a level of activity relative to the investment it makes. Therefore, it is more attractive for sponsors to become involved if they are not obliged to provide funding. In addition, the type of research carried out is exploratory, involving a variety of academic disciplines. Sponsors derive benefits or ideas they would not have contemplated in advance, by providing support for intelligent students who will, we hope, develop new ideas, etc.

Some of the technologies explored and developed at Massachusetts which are world famous include new means of producing and distributing sound digitally, new ways of gathering and distributing news and information and new ways of developing miniature robotics. One of the items developed recently by MIT is a sound system which would allow Deputy Noonan, if this room was full to capacity, to speak to everyone without using a microphone. This system is revolutionary and enormously valuable and it is believed it will have the same impact as the telephone or electricity. MIT is involved in many other projects and I will provide the Deputy with information on them if he so desires.

As stated earlier, MediaLab Europe will be an institute and it will form part of a major expansion in the area of research and development. It is hoped to attract to the project people with academic backgrounds, not just backgrounds in computing. The Deputy referred to music, an area in which those involved in the project perceive enormous potential. We are already moving away from the age where people buy CDs, into one where they can download their favourite songs from the Internet via their television sets.

The researchers involved include architects, musicians and computer specialists. The project has an international appeal and some of the staff and students will come from Europe and elsewhere because it will be the centre of excellence for Europe.

If we are serious in our attempts to promote research and development, expansion is required across the entire sector. There is enormous interest in this area and if we attract the right people the project will be a success.

Mr. McDowell

The Taoiseach's comments are very encouraging. Everyone will acknowledge that our record in research and development is not great, particularly in terms of providing public funding for it. It must be noted that the private sector does not have a wonderful record in this area either.

The Taoiseach

I am not Ireland's No. 1 expert in this area but I will arrange for a briefing for Members in respect of it if they so desire.

Mr. Noonan

Does the Taoiseach have information regarding the intake of undergraduates, the number of places on offer, the type of selection process that will be used and the number of places which will be set aside for Irish students? Is he in a position to indicate whether the institute will be linked to the universities for postgraduate work or whether students will be in a position to pursue a PhD at MIT when they have finished their courses?

The Taoiseach

The selection process will be aptitude-based. People will be able to pursue a degree in the university they are attending while working in the village at the same time or vice versa. These people may pursue masters degrees, PhDs or BScs in a university while also working in the multimedia village on a research project in which they are engaged. The system will be flexible.

In terms of numbers, it will depend on how the village grows and the interest it attracts. At present, the level of interest is phenomenal.

Mr. Deenihan

How will the multimedia village affect existing technology parks? It appears the work carried out at the parks will be replicated by the village.

The Taoiseach

Those responsible for the village do not wish to become involved in a battle with the existing universities, they want to work with them. However, they also want to ensure that more detailed research is carried out in respect of some of the projects already in train at the universities. I am not stating that excellent research is not carried out at our universities but those involved in the village believe they can attract interest from many high profile companies with an interest in research and development. The technology parks will not be excluded or closed down.

Mr. Deenihan

It strikes me that the activities carried out at existing technology parks - I am familiar with the park which is located at the University of Limerick - could be expanded and the services to which the Taoiseach refers provided on a regional basis, rather than establishing the village in Dublin.

The Taoiseach

I assure the Deputy that it is complimentary to the work carried out at the Plassey Technology Park. Many of those involved with the village will also be involved with Plassey Technology Park.

Mr. Noonan

This is a welcome initiative. However, the Taoiseach should reflect on the fact that there is a misunderstanding abroad that because an industry produces a high tech product it is a high tech industry. While many of the products which emanate from our information technology industry are high tech in nature, the jobs in the industry are not high tech - they are low level assembly line jobs. We would not want to fool ourselves into believing that we possess a massive high tech workforce when we do not.

The Taoiseach

It depends on what companies are involved in producing. I recently read an IBEC report on a number of industries in which wage levels are high. On the other hand, there are industries where the wages on offer are not as good. I recently visited an area of Cork which does not produce a high number of third level graduates. A new computer factory has been opened there and most of the jobs on offer will be ideally suitable for those who live in the area. It is good that these jobs are not merely aimed at college graduates or qualified technicians but that people educated to second level can obtain them.

Mr. Noonan

My point is that because these jobs are frequently low tech in nature, the industries in question do not become bedded into our economy. A person with a screwdriver and a lorry could open a similar operation in Puerto Rico in about three weeks. We need to ensure that these industries become bedded in by encouraging their involvement in research and development.

Mr. Deenihan

Does the Taoiseach believe that the village will lead to major companies locating their research and development operations in Ireland?

The Taoiseach

That is our hope. As time progresses, the companies in question will establish and fund research and development operations at these locations. Exchequer funding will mainly go on establishing the locations at the outset. The project involves the creation of skills and products which will form part of the next wave of high value added economic activity. The chairman of Siemens recently informed me that 70% of the products the company is selling this year were not on the drawing board six years ago. If we are to keep pace with industrial change, we must put in place research and development facilities and encourage the invention and construction of new products here. Many of the products we would have thought would last forever are already obsolete. Those involved in the village will be responsible for driving new industrial and business development.

Mr. Dennehy

There is a danger that we could become overly negative in respect of this matter. It must be remembered that, 20 years ago, five or six companies involved in the computer industry in Taiwan came together in the way to which the Taoiseach refers to achieve common benefits. That Ireland has limited resources supports the argument that they should be pooled. The multimedia village is a welcome and innovative development and it is a pity it will not be located at the microelectronics centre in Cork. It should be welcomed as a mechanism which will enable us to use the expertise and finance on offer.

The Taoiseach

The first areas in which the village will become involved will be technology, education, electronic commerce and digital expression. It is through research that they move on.

One of the recent successes has been with a sensor to measure musicians' hand movements and the research unexpectedly led to a car manufacturer developing technology to detect whether a baby is in a car seat before an air bag deploys, thus potentially saving thousands of lives. I do not think I will ever get a job in this field, but there are those who are very good at it.

Deputies McDowell and Noonan mentioned inflation. The increase in inflation reflects a number of factors, such as the impact of the budget increase in excise on tobacco and oil price increases, which we hope are already diminishing, the impact on the euro of sterling, which we also hope will improve. I remain of the view that the average for the period of the programme will be 2.5%. I have not changed my view.

Deputy Noonan and I spent many years talking about these matters, but price stability is an important part of policy and we should not take our eyes off it, whether in good times or bad. There are many things we can do in this regard. I take this matter seriously - we cannot ignore it and I would never be flippant about it.

Chairman

In 1992 Moorepark Technology was set up with by all the co-operatives and Teagasc for research and development. Kerry Co-op was the only one that did not participate, but it has been very successful.

Mr. McDowell

With regard to the sports campus, can the Taoiseach say whether the FAI's decision is final and why is the issue being dealt with in his Department?

The Taoiseach

It is because we were involved in the co-ordination of activities at the start. Similarly, the multimedia activity I referred to involves all Departments and that is why it is with us. I was driving the initial elements, but I do not see the matter staying with it. It is the same with the sports campus. There is £10 million provided in our Estimate this year and that will move on when matters are set up. When the board and the staff are set up the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation will take over. The money for this year is for processing planning, traffic surveys, environmental impact surveys and preliminary work, such as architectural work on the plan.

I met the FAI recently. I have a strong view on this, having a personal interest in sport, but if I cannot convince the FAI, then I cannot. My argument is based on the fact that the FAI is badly strapped for money, as sport is generally. I recently met the Dublin Schoolboy Leagues, which is trying to provide £40,000 for 50,000 young people to play junior and schoolboy soccer next season - Deputy McDowell will be familiar with this. Most League of Ireland clubs have been funded by Government grants in recent years - Shamrock Rovers have applied for a new grant while Bohemians, Shelbourne, St. Patrick's Athletic, Cork City, Galway City and others have received grants in the past. They cannot get much money from the League of Ireland.

It seems to me that if the capital cost of a national stadium is paid for by the State and if the IRFU or FAI can sell boxes and seats for their events they will gain revenue immediately and can put it back into their sport with no capital costs to them. I have not moved from that position and it is beyond me to understand the argument——

Mr. McDowell

On that issue, the Taoiseach has not commented on the statement by the former President of the GAA, Mr. Quinn, at the weekend, when he suggested that the GAA should be talking to the Government about a national stadium.

The Taoiseach

The GAA has made a very clear statement since then, which the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation put on the record in the House yesterday and which seems to be in conflict with that. The Deputy reminded me of questions as to whether we spent long enough in planning, but since January 1988 I have been involved, in one form or another, with the national sports bodies on the issue of sports facilities. I was Minister for Finance and Mr. Quinn was President of the GAA during these discussions and I was taken aback by his comments, although they have probably been clarified in subsequent statements. He told me he could see the day when rugby, perhaps, would be played in Croke Park, because it is an all-Ireland game - I do not think he saw it in the distant future. He did not see soccer being played there because it is a partitioned sport. The chances of getting a national stadium under those circumstances were unlikely in my lifetime.

Mr. Deenihan

Subheads C, D and E relate mostly to North-South co-operation. I am involved in one major cross-Border initiative between Downpatrick and Listowel and the funds are not there to encourage realistic North-South co-operation. Where there are bona fide projects in place there are no funds to help communities in the South to work with those in the North from the Northern Ireland Office, the Assembly or the Irish Government. There are great opportunities for joint projects and we can get meaning from the Good Friday Agreement through communities North and South working together for mutual benefit. Information, technical skills or workers could be transferred.

The Minister of State, Deputy Séamus Brennan, will be aware of a project funded through the millennium fund on railway heritage. Downpatrick has a major railway heritage project in place. While there is great interest and commitment on both sides there is no way to draw down joint funds to develop the projects.

I am sure that is just one example of several projects throughout the country which would use a fund like this and where communities could work together and put forward joint proposals to both Governments. It would be a major departure.

With regard to Sports Campus Ireland, I never had ministerial responsibility for sport, but I made a similar proposal ten years ago. I support the Taoiseach totally in what he is doing and it would be advisable for the FAI to come on board, as they will waste resources otherwise. A national rehabilitation centre for sportspersons was suggested in the past, where coaching and injury treatment facilities could be included and it should be all-embracing. It suggested that there should be a swimming pool on site and that all sporting facilities should be on site. It is a major undertaking but I would agree that it will make a major statement for this country. I hope the budget will not be as some suggest and I do not think it will be if it is closely costed and so on, but it is an important sporting initiative. It is right that we should question some aspects but its detractors do not have a proper vision for sport and are not well informed.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is right about North-South co-operation. Whether we can build that into the fund needs to be discussed. Loyalists leaders told me that, in the past five or six years, they have begun to take a different view of people in the South and they know that they do not have horns growing out of their heads. Normalisation of society will be achieved by co-operation and by people working together.

The reality is that, over the years, the communities never met and only a very limited cross-Border traffic. The economic statistic quoted is that only one third of the business is done between Dublin and Belfast that would be the case if the two cities were anywhere else on mainland Europe. I would think the figure is higher with regard to cultural activities, language, sport, active age groups and other groups. I have been highly supportive of and have attended many functions involving twinning and co-operation arrangements. The Deputy referred to one such arrangement between Listowel and Downpatrick and that is very good.

Over the past 20 years, moneys from the Ireland Fund, INTERREG, EU programmes and other initiatives went to Border counties, the majority going to the North. That is understandable because nothing was happening in the Border regions and we all know that those regions suffered during the Troubles. In more normal times, we should be trying to build co-operation across the entire island and not just in areas designated by implementation bodies and areas of co-operation. For the short time in which the Northern Ireland Executive was up and running, no one was too fussy about the areas and that is how these difficulties will be solved forever. I strongly support co-operation.

The national development plan included substantially more money for cross-Border areas over the next six years. That probably does not cover the point the Deputy is making because it refers to the Border regions. Perhaps, the Deputy could raise some of the other initiatives.

I thank the Deputy for his comments regarding sport and we have an interest in controlling the costs. This is not just a stadium. There will also be an aquatic centre on which the Australian Government is co-operating with us. Australia has spent an enormous amount of money on the new aquatic centre for the Olympic Games. Following my visit to Australia and, more importantly, the visit by John Treacy, chief executive of the Sports Council and the Secretary General of my Department, the Australians have agreed to give us their plans. They have spent millions designing this centre and there is no point in us re-doing all of that. This will cut out an enormous amount of the cost. It is a world class aquatic centre used daily by the public. There were 6,500 members of the public there when I was there paying £4 for the day. We can do the same quickly and the intention is to try to do it as the first part of the complex so it will be ready for the Special Olympics in 2003.

We are blessed to have a number of paramedical, medical and physiotherapy professors and professionals in sports injuries. They have been running conferences for years and calling for better co-ordination in the treatment of and research into sports injuries. There will also be library facilities as part of the plan. It will not just be a stadium in which to watch Gaelic, soccer or rugby matches - which I hope will happen inevitably, even when the row is over and I do not want to argue about it. Inevitably it will happen because the GAA has taken the view that night matches are likely to become a feature in the second half of this decade. It has said that it will use the stadium for premier matches. However, the stadium will also be used for other interests and will be the first headquarters for the Community Games. It is not limited and, through good fortune, the land is close to the M50 and the city.

Mr. Belton

I was interested in the design. I gather from what the Taoiseach said that this is an entirely public project and there will be no private involvement. That could be the first step towards hosting the Olympic Games, over which idea Deputy Gay Mitchell was laughed out of court not so long ago. I also presume that the Ard-Fheisanna will be held in it.

The Taoiseach

I was one of the few people who joined Deputy Gay Mitchell's committee, not just regarding the Olympic Games, but in support of the view that Ireland should have the capacity to host European events. I am interested in sport, as are a number of members of the committee, and it gives food for thought to see countries smaller than Ireland staging European events, whether track and field, soccer matches or other events. We have never been able to stage such events, except in a few smaller sports, but not in any of the more serious sports. We have the capacity to do so but we have never had and do not have the facilities. Much as I support Croke Park, if it has no space for anything other than Gaelic games it is already hamstrung. A national stadium is not a Lansdowne Road, Croke Park or Eircom Park.

Mr. S. Brennan

Deputy Noonan asked about the CSO. The harmonisation process is not complete, particularly in the inflation area, and different countries still calculate inflation in different ways. EUROSTAT is trying to harmonise these systems and is making substantial progress, particularly in the areas of GDP, GNP, quarterly national household surveys and so on. Inflation is still the major outstanding area because some countries include different items in the basket, such as house prices and so on. They are getting there and I am told that it is improving all the time.

Mr. McDowell

What is the progress on filling vacancies in the Office of the Chief State Solicitor?

The Taoiseach

Discussions are ongoing between IMPACT, the Attorney General's office and the Chief State Solicitor's office. This is the third review. The Deloitte & Touche review took place in 1996 and the Nally review took place last year. The third review is being done by CMOD and is considering the needs of the office. Additional staff resources will be required. They are up to 223 or 233 now. The volume of work has grown enormously. The office has been under enormous pressure, with Army deafness issues, many of the other tribunals and child sexual abuse cases, with civil cases taking up to three years. Apart from general litigation, there is an enormous amount of new work, including the cases relating to the issue of organ removal. Hopefully, agreement can be reached in the current discussions with staff on what they need to deal with the workload. It seems that an increase in the number of staff is inevitable.

Mr. McDowell

And also increased or improved pay scales.

The Taoiseach

That is part of the discussions. As the Deputy is aware the office has been losing staff to private practices. This is also very much the case at clerical grades.