On behalf of the committee I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Seamus Brennan, and his officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider Supplementary Estimates falling within the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach, namely Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach (Supplementary), Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Supplementary). I propose the taking of opening statements by the Minister of State and Opposition spokespersons followed by a question and answer session. We are also taking Supplementary Estimates from the Department Finance.
Estimates for Public Services, 2001.
Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach (Supplementary).
Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Supplementary).
I do not require time to make a statement, unless Deputy Mitchell turns up, in which case I will make one.
We will take questions following the Minister of State's presentation.
I request that the committee approves a Supplementary Estimate in the amount of £650,000 for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions for the payment of general law expenses. A sum of £680,000 was originally voted for this purpose for the current year and we are seeking a Supplementary Estimate of £650,000. As the committee will be aware, the general law expense subhead is used principally to pay costs which are awarded against the State in legal proceedings which arise, directly or indirectly, out of prosecutions of criminal offences.
The two reasons the Supplementary Estimate is being sought are the general level of increase of awards and the greater than normal number of unusually expensive cases. The level of expenditure on costs is greater than was anticipated and is double the corresponding figure for 2000. An increased number of cases cost more than £50,000, which accounted for £480,000 of the total, whereas the original budget amounted to a maximum of £320,000 in such cases.
The second reason is the level of the basic cost awards. In the previous five years, 1996-2000, 80% of all awards that were settled were under £10,000. The average cost of these settlements, excluding those costing more than £50,000, was £6,7000 whereas in 2001 only 32% of awards that were settled were under £10,000 and the average award, excluding those costing more than £50,000, had risen to £17,474. These increases in costs are outside the control of the office. These are the main reasons for the Supplementary Estimate being sought: an increase in the number of expensive cases and an increase in the level of the basic costs awarded. That relates to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
The Forum on Europe has commenced its work programme in St. Patrick's Hall in Dublin Castle. It has terms of reference and is well structured. Seats have been allocated to the participants, both political parties in the forum and the special observer pillar, a unique addition. A large number of organisations have been invited to participate in the pillar, including the social partners, the main Christian churches, religious groups, groups active in the Nice referendum campaign and organisations involved in European affairs generally. A full list of all those participants is available if members require it.
Apart from the forum and the special observer pillar, interested groups and individuals have been invited by way of advertisements to make submissions to the forum. Its business is managed around a steering committee. There is a forum secretariat staffed by officials from the Departments of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs. The secretariat is headed by an assistant secretary from the Department of the Taoiseach who formerly acted as secretary general to the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. The Forum on Europe is largely structured along the same lines as the earlier forum.
To date the body has held five plenary sessions and has covered important themes. It is especially conscious of the importance of bringing the debate to the public. In that regard, it has ordered a plenary session for Cork, which will be held in early December, and a series of mini-fora at seven regional centres throughout the country. Costs were involved initially and we therefore seek a token Estimate to deal with the initial expenses of the forum. The main Estimate for 2002 is already in the published Book of Estimates.
These are the two items on my agenda, namely, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Forum on Europe.
In regard to the Supplementary Estimate for the DPP, I have read the Minister's briefing note and have heard what he said in elaborating on it. The figures are surprising. They suggest a major shift in a relatively short period in terms of the number of major cases. Does that represent any tactical or policy shift within the DPP's office? Are more cases being pursued through the courts or is there another more obvious explanation for it? What is the nature of those cases going to court? There appears to be a surprising shift within a relatively shortperiod.
Will the Minister tell us something about staffing within the DPP's office? I know that is not specifically part of the Supplementary Estimate but we did deal with it, if the Minister recalls, when he was here previously seeking an Estimate for the office. There were a number of vacancies at that stage. We would like to be assured the vacancies have been filled and that any industrial relations difficulties within that office have been resolved.
On the broader issue of the Forum on Europe, my party supports it and is happy with the way it is going. It was necessary in the first instance to come to terms with the major reasons people voted against the Nice referendum. This will be the priority for the forum in the next few months. Is it intended to produce an interim report when that phase of the forum's work is completed or does the forum intend to complete all its work before producing a report?
While I accept it is important this work be brought to the public and I endorse the idea of having meetings in the regions, I was a little concerned when I saw specific mention of the need to produce publicity which is obviously intended to impact on the public. I hope this does not mean we will have yet another Minister or Minister of State appearing on television advertisements saying how wonderful Europe is and that we should come and talk to him in Dublin Castle.
I understand the referendum will be after the election.
Yes, that is why I ask the question.
The Estimate for the forum is €2 million for the first two years. What type of expenses are involved? Do they comprise the secretarial back-up to the forum? How are such expenses incurred? Must premises be paid for? What is the breakdown on such expenditure? It appears to be very high for a body which meets once a week and which, in essence, is a talking shop. One wonders how it could accumulate such high expenses.
Can we assume expenses are contingent on attendance and that parties or individuals not present do not receive expenses?
Yes.
What is Fine Gael missing out on, as a matter of interest?
There is no policy shift in the DPP's office. These are volume changes rather than policy changes. There has been an increased number of serious cases with higher awards given.
Are they a specific class of case? Is there a pattern or is it just a coincidence?
No, there were a number of cases for which the level of costs awarded was not anticipated. There is also the level of the basic cost of awards. Some 80% of awards settled used to be less than £10,000 between 1996 and 2000. Only 32% of cases are less than £10,000 now.
That is why I asked the question. It is a major shift in a short period. Is there a reason?
It is not a shift in policy.
It is not because of policy.
It is a shift in amounts. There is no policy change in the way the DPP's office goes about these matters. There were a number of sexual offences cases which were settled and for which costs were awarded. Cases comprised sexual offences, illegal use of bus stops and fraud, as well as the McCracken inquiry and so on. Costs were awarded in a number of cases which were not anticipated by the DPP's office.
What was the figure for the McCracken inquiry?
It was £116,000. There was a fraud case costing £94,000. The illegal use of a bus stop case cost £50,000. The sexual offences case cost £71,000.
I am reluctant to become trivial about this but what in the name of all that is holy is an illegal use of a bus stop case?
Are these the legal costs?
The Garda issued directions that private bus companies should stop using certain Bus Éireann bus stops in a certain town. The applicants sought to have the Garda prohibited from taking prosecutions. The application succeeded and costs were awarded of £50,989. Cases such as that were not anticipated. In addition, one must take account of what I said about the number of cases where awards are less than £10,000.
The Deputy also asked about staff in the office. The current number is approximately 50.
Are there outstanding vacancies?
On foot of the Nally report, the criminal prosecution element of the Chief State Solicitor's office is moving to the DPP's office. That will bring an influx of another 100 or so members with it, which will bring the total complement in the office to about 155 or 160.
Did the Nally report not anticipate an increased number at an earlier stage than this?
I am advised there are some vacancies which must be negotiated.
There are vacancies.
Vacancies are being filled.
How many? I am looking for a broad number rather than the exact number.
I am advised it is about ten or 15.
At what level?
They are mainly clerical and administrative. I was also asked about the forum and the interim report. There is a tentative understanding about a possible interim report, particularly on enlargement, which could be produced early next year. Deputy McGrath asked about the €2 million, which is the figure in the Book of Estimates for 2002, published on 15 November. I am not here seeking that amount. Today I am seeking a token Estimate for 2001 so that the expenses associated with these first five sessions can be paid from existing resources. They will come to approximately - I stress the figure is approximate - £50,000. The Supplementary Estimate is about £50,000 for the five sessions and the associated costs. I was also asked about the costs of the forum. The cost of operating it in a full year is approximately €2 million, broken down between salaries, attendance allowances, travel, subsistence, secretariat, research, catering, consultancy, etc. It is along the lines of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation with the same type of structure under each of these headings.
How many full-time staff are there?
There are nine staff, all of whom have been seconded.
It is estimated that it will cost €40,000 per week next year.
The Deputy is good at his sums.
If salaries for ten people are taken out of that, it cannot come anywhere near €40,000 per week. Are premises being rented? Are there other overheads which bring it to such an amount?
The approximate breakdown is as follows: taff costs, just over €500,000; non-pay elements such as attendance allowances, travel and subsistence, approximately €380,000; secretariat and research, €127,000; consultancy fees, €152,000; catering, €152,000; transcriptions and reported records, €88,000; advertising, €50,000; stationery, €12,000; office supplies, €12,000; printing and publication, €63,000; website, €63,000; and broadcasting on radio, TV and website, €317,000, giving a total of approximately €2 million. These are estimates.
How much is the daily allowance per individual per day?
I am advised that Members of the Oireachtas do not get anything extra, at which I express disappointment. The others get——
Are you on the list?
Those who are not Members of the Oireachtas get approximately £180 per day. This relates to those who have to take time off work.
Does the Minister have a global figure for legal fees paid by the State for this year, including the additional money now being sought? What is the total pay out to the legal profession this year?
It is hard to get an overall figure. The DPP's figure this year is about £9 million for prosecution work alone. There are others items which need to be added to that.
Approximately how many lawyers is that divided between?
Approximately between 100 and 150 lawyers.