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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Tuesday, 1 Mar 2005

Finance Bill 2005: Committee Stage.

I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, and his officials to the meeting. This is the first occasion Deputy Cowen appears before the committee as Minister for Finance. We look forward to a fruitful and productive discussion on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill 2005.

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the Finance Bill 2005. The Bill was referred to the select committee by Dáil Éireann on 9 February. The committee is required to report to the Dáil on the completion of its consideration of the Bill not later than Thursday, 3 March 2005. The times by which the committee must have completed its consideration of specified groups of sections and the amendments addressed to them are determined by an allocation of time order made by the Dáil on 24 February, a copy of which has been circulated to members. The order further provides that any division claimed in the proceedings on the Bill must be postponed until immediately before the time set for the relevant guillotine or, if proceedings conclude before the time for the guillotine is reached, on completion of those proceedings. The putting of any question contingent on a postponed division must similarly be postponed.

Before we consider the amendments, will members agree the proposed timetable which is in accordance with the guillotine order of the Dáil, showing the starting, finishing and break times of the sittings on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday? Agreed.

It would save time if members agreed to a schedule for grouping amendments, rather than having to seek agreement each time we deal with a group of amendments.

Before we proceed, will the Chairman comment on the amendments disallowed?

We will come to that immediately.

Before they agree to anything, members should know out of courtesy the extent of amendments disallowed. Heretofore they were ruled out of order because of a potential charge on the Exchequer. However, I note the severe ruling that amendments are being disallowed because they are merely declaratory in nature. I do not accept that a comprehensive review of the taxation system is declaratory in nature but is fundamental to what is required, although I acknowledge that the Minister is undertaking a review which he inherited from his predecessor of the various exemptions, particularly capital exemptions.

I tabled amendment No. 5. Other amendments of a similar type were tabled. I would like to know the number of amendments disallowed. If other Deputies are facing a similar sweeping application as was applied in my case, there will be very little business for the Opposition to perform during the three days allocated for discussion of Committee Stage of the Finance Bill 2005.

I am deeply disappointed with the ruling of the Chair which is inappropriate. It is unacceptable because the arguments in favour of the amendments are self-sustaining and appropriate.

For the information of the committee, I sent a letter before the commencement of the meeting to each individual member who had an amendment or amendments disallowed. Of 106 amendments, 16 are being ruled out of order by the Chair on the advice of officials of the House. They are amendments Nos. 2, 4, 55 and 102 in the name of Deputy Burton; amendments Nos. 5, 17 and 96 in the name of Deputy Ó Caoláin; amendments Nos. 6, 7, 8, 29, 30, 77 and 78 in the name of Deputy Boyle and amendments Nos. 34 and 36 in the name of Deputy Bruton. While specific amendments are being ruled out of order, members will be free to speak to the relevant section.

Amendment No. 2 in my name has been ruled out of order. It proposes that a report be compiled on the possibility of either capping the amount of relief people can get from the various tax avoidance schemes or alternatively introducing a minimum effective rate of 20% for high income earners after ordinary allowances and so on. The Chair's ruling on the amendment is that it involves a potential charge on the Revenue and is merely declaratory in nature. I understand the Minister has spent a fair amount of taxpayer's money advertising an inquiry into the use of tax loopholes by the very wealthy to write off——

I am stopping the Deputy now.

No, the point the Chairman made——

I will give the reasons. We will not have a debate on the amendments I have ruled out of order.

I contest the Chair's reasons. The Chair is saying my amendment would impose an additional charge on the Exchequer——

Yes, clearly.

——and is merely declaratory in nature. It would not in either case be an additional charge. The Government produces reports by the tonne but suddenly it is worried about the cost of a report. The ruling of the Chair is incorrect; so is the suggestion that it is merely declaratory in nature. Only the other night the Minister stated he would weed out from the tax system the millionaires who pay no tax. My amendment deals specifically and precisely with that issue.

I do not know whether the Chairman has taken the Minister to task for his statement of the night before but I cannot see how my amendment would have a cost factor or could be deemed to be declaratory in nature as the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister have all agreed publicly with the position pursued by me, that these tax breaks ought to be capped and we ought to receive information on them. How did the Chairman manage to arrive at this decision because my position has been endorsed several times by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and most recently in a statement by the Minister on the Department's website the night before last?

The Deputy knows full well that only the Minister or a Minister in his stead can move an amendment that involves a charge on the Exchequer.

What is the charge element?

The 20% charge could result in a reduction in income tax collected.

It would result in an increase in the collection of income tax.

Or a reduction

A very substantial increase.

The Deputy knows full well that the Minister is free under the rules of the House to make amendments.

My amendment would result in a substantial saving to the Exchequer.

There is also a cost involved.

What is it?

There could be a reduction in some cases.

Where is the reduction? No, there could not be.

There could.

Where and how?

There could be a reduction for those paying at a higher rate than 20% to reduce their tax bill to 20%. The Deputy proposed that "the Minister shall prepare ... a report on the possibility of either capping the extent to which recourse can be had to tax avoidance schemes or alternatively providing for a minimum rate of 20 per cent to be applied (after credits and personal allowances) to all persons whose income tax falls to be determined by reference to the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997". The minimum rate of 20%, if applied, would have the potential to impose a charge on Revenue and as the amendment is declaratory in nature, it must be ruled out of order. If there is a possibility or the potential to impose a charge on the Exchequer, the Opposition is not free under the rules of the Houses of the Oireachtas to propose such an amendment. We have this debate every year.

Will the Chairman read my amendment? The substantial element is "capping the extent to which recourse can be had to tax avoidance schemes" and providing for a fall-back. There would be two options, a capping mechanism or a minimum effective tax rate. It would not be one and the other but one or the other in order to ensure the State would get some tax from those currently in the happy position of paying no tax, even though they have significant incomes.

It would still involve the possibility of a potential charge on the Exchequer.

It would not.

It would, for taxpayers who would be able to reduce their tax take from the higher rate——

At present they can reduce it to zero because of Charlie McCreevy's schemes——

Correct.

——which he brought in by the tonne. At the moment we have millionaires who pay no tax while a single person earning €31,000 a year is in danger of paying tax at 42% if he or she works overtime. Where is the tax justice in that?

The Deputy is aware that under Standing Orders an amendment to a Bill which could have the effect of imposing or increasing a charge on the Revenue may not be moved by any Member, save a member of the Government or a Minister of State. Every Member is aware of that rule. This rule has always applied and nothing has changed today. If Members are not happy with Standing Orders, they are free to go elsewhere to make arrangements to have those orders changed if the House so wishes. I have ruled that amendment No. 2 is out of order. The effect of amendment No. 4 in the name of Deputy Burton would be to require the Minister to establish a new body with associated costs. This would involve a potential charge on the Exchequer and therefore this amendment is out of order.

I must repeat to the Chairman the words of his own Taoiseach and the Tánaiste both of whom referred to the situation which prevails whereby a group of very wealthy people pay no tax at all. The Taoiseach has stated to me three times that this is a scandal. The Minister said recently that he planned to weed these people out of the tax system. The Labour Party wants a mechanism whereby this could be done with some level of transparency rather than by the under-the-counter deals done continuously by this Government and particularly by the former Minister for Finance who brought in schemes for very well-off people and left ordinary taxpayers footing the bill for everything.

Be that as it may, the committee will not enter into the merits or otherwise of that debate.

That is not our objective.

The committee will not enter into that debate——

The Deputy is misrepresenting the Government.

The Minister said the other item will weed them out. He was taking up the point I made about people who pay no tax at all.

Only a member of the Government or a Minister can move an amendment which involves a charge on the Exchequer. The Standing Orders of the House are quite clear that no Member, save a Minister, can move an amendment involving a charge or a potential charge, no matter how small that potential charge may be. The amendment is therefore out of order and there can be no further discussion on that matter.

I wish to talk about the generality as I am the Deputy with the most amendments ruled out of order. I wish to put on record that I find some of these decisions bizarre. Some of these amendments have been submitted in similar form for previous Finance Bills and have been allowed; some are amendments that have been allowed in similar circumstances for different legislation. The making of reports and establishment of commissions have long been regarded as acceptable subjects for Committee and Report Stage amendments. I do not agree with the Chairman's judgment in ruling most of my amendments out of order. If the Chairman persists in his ruling, I intend raising the matter with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

The Deputy has made his point. Each Deputy concerned has received a letter about his or her amendments which have been ruled out of order.

It is inconsistent with previous rulings on this committee and it is inconsistent with practice in this House.

No, it is not. I have chaired this committee for the past few years. The establishment of any new body which involves a charge on the Exchequer has always been ruled out of order. It also depends on the scope of the Finance Bill in question. The committee has been consistent from year to year in its response to charges on the Exchequer or to the establishment of bodies with associated costs. All such amendments have been ruled out of order.

Deputy Boyle will have the opportunity to redraft an amendment on Report Stage to deal with the point he makes and which will not be in breach of Standing Orders. This is my advice to the Deputy.

As I understand it, the standard position has always been that the making of reports or the establishment of internal bodies within the Houses of the Oireachtas form part of the normal expenditure and business of this House and are not deemed to be an added expenditure. Previous amendments along those lines have always been accepted.

I can confirm that I have personally ruled out of order similar amendments on previous occasions on Committee Stage.

I propose to move on to amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Burton.

NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 11, before section 1, to insert the following new section:

"1.—The Ombudsman shall include in her annual report a special report on the overpayment of tax by PAYE taxpayers, and on the take up of credits by such taxpayers, and the branch of her office dedicated to ensuring that the take up of credits is readily available to all taxpayers, and refunds made as rapidly as possible where this arises, shall be known as the taxpayers' advocate office.".

The purpose of this amendment is to address the situation which has arisen in a particularly acute way in recent years, whereby there are significant numbers of taxpayers who do not receive their full tax credits and allowances. The people include those who have a change in circumstances in recent years or who have a change in circumstances during the tax year. This could include people who are married, widowed or divorced where there is a change in marital status. This could also include people who have retired recently and may have taken up a part-time job and self-employed people who take up full-time employment in the PAYE sector or vice versa, but in particular those moving from self-employment into paid employment under PAYE. All these categories of persons are currently at serious risk of overpaying tax because they do not receive an up-to-date certificate from the Revenue Commissioners which reflects their change of circumstances.

I have personally carried out a number of tests in respect of groups of people. I have asked them to compare their tax certificates. I will not call it error but it may be a surprise to many to see they do not have up-to-date certificates which properly reflect their change of circumstance.

In the Budget Statement and in the Finance Bill, the Minister for Finance promised to introduce an on-line Revenue service for PAYE taxpayers and this is to be welcomed. However, my amendment deals with a different matter. The Revenue simply does not take account of changes which happen all the time, considering there are approximately 1.9 million people in the tax system. People are being significantly overcharged and in many cases are not aware of this overcharging and are not receiving sufficient tax credits and allowances.

Last year the Revenue Commissioners introduced a restriction of four years for the repayment of refunds which came into effect some months ago. I do not understand why the Revenue introduced a period of four years and I regard this as very unfair.

My amendment proposes to establish within the Office of the Ombudsman an office to be called "the taxpayers' advocate office". This would allow taxpayers who have been given incorrect tax certificates to be given the proper repayments in due course. This amendment does not deal specifically with the secondary issue of the range of allowances, from tax allowances for refuse charges to allowances for medical costs, which taxpayers are not availing of. There is evidence of a serious structural problem. If the Office of the Ombudsman was used as a taxpayers' advocate office, it would advance the Revenue's activity on behalf of compliant taxpayers who are innocently significantly overtaxed.

Most people are familiar with the most common examples involving students who work or others who, at the commencement of their first employment, are put on emergency tax. In this scenario, the employers and many students would be aware that they may be due a repayment of tax. They make arrangements to recover the tax and obtain the correct certificates. I am shocked at how this problem has grown in recent years.

The introduction of the tax credit system was a major job which Revenue undertook from the early 1990s onwards. Although it has worked reasonably well, the system has serious problems which the Minister needs to address. An external stimulus is required. It is not good enough for Revenue to indicate it will look after taxpayers who inadvertently overpay significant amounts of tax. An external friend of the taxpayer is required and I suggest the entity with the most appropriate experience to perform this function is the Office of the Ombudsman.

With the Freedom of Information Act having been practically closed down by the Government, there is capacity to extend the Office of the Ombudsman to include an advocate for taxpayers. While a limited advocacy system is available within the Revenue Commissioners for businesspeople who experience difficulties, no such system is available to ordinary PAYE taxpayers. The next time the Minister, his officials or their children are in the company of friends, they should invite them to compare the tax certificates issued by the Revenue Commissioners. They will be surprised to note the significant number who have been overcharged.

Compliant taxpayers, in particular, deserve the best possible service from the Revenue Commissioners. Therefore, they need an advocate such as the Ombudsman to ensure Revenue deals promptly and effectively with overpayments. The introduction of the four year cap on seeking refunds of overpayments is unfair.

On the medical expenses tax allowance, in the event that the Minister accepts my proposal regarding the role of the Ombudsman, he should request the Ombudsman to carry out a review of how many doctors' surgeries automatically give a receipt to patients who purchase medical services when visiting their general practitioner. The figure is relatively small and constitutes another area in which significant overpayments arise. I am aware that some county councils are making better efforts to ensure people claim the tax allowance for refuse charges.

Overpayments have reached €300 million in each of the past couple of years. If one rolls up the amounts for recent years, they amount to more than €1 billion. It is our job to ensure compliant taxpayers are refunded overpayments. We give enough money in tax breaks through the special schemes introduced by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy. My amendment proposes the introduction of a special scheme for compliant taxpayers who have inadvertently overpaid tax and need to obtain the correct tax allowances and credits as quickly as possible.

I have raised this issue in the Dáil. While I am sympathetic in principle with the line the Minister has taken, he should reconsider his view that the Revenue Commissioners cannot act as accountant for taxpayers by providing assistance in obtaining reliefs. Ordinary compliant taxpayers must have confidence that Revenue is not, through acts of omission, participating in what is effectively a rip-off of taxpayers.

In a recent appearance before the select committee the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners provided details on the takeup of various tax allowances. Even using calculations made on the back of an envelope, it is easy to see that they are grossly underclaimed. The Revenue Commissioners indicate that slightly more than 100,000 claim medical expenses relief which is available to anyone who spends more than €2 per week over the 52 weeks of the year. Even an examination of public information on the drugs refund scheme and other areas would show a considerable degree of underclaiming. This is also true in the case of bin charges for which 2001 figures, albeit out-of-date, suggest that only 75,000 households claimed relief. We know that approximately one million households pay the bin charge.

In the case of rent relief on private rented accommodation, the Central Statistics Office estimates that the number of units of private rented accommodation is approximately double the 89,000 people claiming the relief. The home carer allowance is another example. According to data provided by the CSO in its labour force surveys, the number providing care in the home and eligible for this tax credit is almost double the number who claim it.

The issue is clear cut. A large amount of money which is not the property of the Minister but the entitlement of others is being hoovered up by the Minister through the Revenue Commissioners. The only issue is that they must under law trigger their entitlement by means of a claim.

I have tabled amendments on this issue and propose that where the Revenue Commissioners, with reasonable ease, can gain access to information on payments made, it would figure out the relief and if an overpayment was discovered, would pay interest in the same way as any other late claim for a refund of outstanding moneys would be paid. In addition, the period in which late claims could be made would be extended beyond the four year restriction. These are reasonable proposals.

Everyone commends the Revenue Commissioners for their effective pursuit of tax abuse in recent years. Its other unfinished business is to pursue with equal care the repayment of moneys they know are due to taxpayers. If evidence indicated someone had underpaid tax, a major trawl would be carried out to identify it. If evidence indicates tax has been overpaid, a reasonable level of investigation is required. However, I do not propose imposing an unreasonable burden on the Revenue Commissioners. We could make considerable progress in this area by giving the Revenue Commissioners a mandate to do this, perhaps backed, as Deputy Burton proposed, by a role for the Ombudsman in examining Revenue's administrative structures. The amendment is worthy of support and the Minister must develop policy mechanisms to implement it.

I join in welcoming the new Minister to the select committee and support Deputy Burton's amendment. Its opening section refers to "a special report on the overpayment of tax by PAYE taxpayers". This cannot be an end in itself and must lead to major reform of the taxation system.

The Deputy is prescriptive in terms of having a "taxpayers' advocate office" as part of the overall Ombudsman service. I have no difficulty with this and would welcome it, even against the background of the chequered experience of this committee vis-à-vis the relationship between the Office of the Ombudsman and the Revenue Commissioners, a matter we discussed as recently as one week ago. What is clearly required, however, is a root and branch reform of the entire taxation system which would see an end to what I can only describe as the one-way street approach in the current system. The Revenue Commissioners adopt a take and take more approach, irrespective of fairness and equity, and make no effort to face up to their responsibility to ensure taxpayers are not paying over an above what is required.

While there is no shortage of activity on the part of the Revenue Commissioners in pursuit of underpayment, in circumstances where PAYE taxpayers pay more than required the onus is on the individual concerned. This is attributable to a complete lack of information and awareness of the tax credit system. The majority of PAYE taxpayers do not understand or appreciate the opportunities available to ensure credits accrue to their tax liabilities. There is a responsibility to inform people properly. Most PAYE taxpayers cannot afford to refer to professional advice, be it that of accountants or taxation experts. Those are the preserve of individuals in the higher income and taxation liability echelons. The ordinary taxpayer, who bears the bulk of the tax contribution to the Exchequer each year, is invariably overlooked. There is an onus on the Revenue Commissioners to inform individuals of their entitlements and carry out proper assessments for access to refunds where they apply.

Such a proposal will be rejected due to the administrative costs it will involve. The taxation system should be built on fairness and equity. As it operates, it clearly is not. Deputy Burton's amendment seeks to address this. However, the onus goes beyond what she has prescribed. Until we see a complete root and branch reform where equality and respect are shown to each contributor to the Exchequer, we will not have a system that treats all citizens equally. I recommend this amendment. I hope the Minister for Finance will wrestle and grapple with it.

Measures can be taken in the interim, such as better information provision. A proactive approach is needed to inform citizens in a legible and understandable way, not in the gobbledegook used in taxation and financial matters which is above the understanding of many citizens. It needs to be brought down to a level of language understandable to every citizen because every citizen is entitled to be properly informed. I support the amendment. However, I also recommend further action be taken if we are to see a taxation system that will have the respect and support of all the citizens.

I support the proposal regarding the role of the ombudsman in making this information more available and having it assessed. However, the information must also be made available through the annual reports of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance.

How does the Department decide on how these credits will apply in the next financial year? Is it on the basis of the maximum uptake of all these credits? That would be the prudent course. If it is, then some background information must be available to the Department. Will this be made more available to the public? If the information is available to the Department, then it also knows there are taxpayers paying money to the Exchequer who should not have to. There is value in having the uptake of these credits published in various fora on a regular basis.

I am also in favour of the Department making known its expectations of a maximum uptake of these credits on an annual basis. Deputy Bruton's party has done an exercise on the potential cost to taxpayers of not availing of these credits. There needs to be a degree of honesty within the Department in acknowledging that several hundred euro is being collected that the system allows for the taxpayers not to make available to the Exchequer. On those grounds, Deputy Burton's proposal is valuable.

The underlying sentiments in some Deputies' contributions suggested that the Revenue Commissioners have a vested interest in keeping quiet about all of this. It has been suggested there was some unstated policy or practice, allowing situations to develop where the Revenue Commissioners are not proactive in ensuring that everyone knows his or her entitlements. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is the responsibility of every taxpayer to be aware of his or her entitlements. A taxpayer would know, more than anyone else, if he or she had overpaid tax.

The Revenue is active in making people aware of their entitlements. Deputy Ó Caoláin's suggestion that it is a one way street is a grave injustice. At the beginning of each year, the determination of tax credits and standard rate cut-off points is issued to every PAYE taxpayer. This reflects the most up-to-date information the Revenue Commissioners have regarding an individual's entitlements.

Accompanying each notice is a leaflet that sets out a wide range of information on the main personal tax credits available for the year in question with comparative figures for the preceding years, tax rates and tax bands for the year in question, exemption limits for single, widowed and married persons and information on how to claim an adjustment to the tax credit certificate. Other means of communications used by the Revenue Commissioners include a wide range of general information leaflets, a nationwide network of information offices, an 1890 lo-call telephone service, a website which has received awards for its high standards, a media advertising campaign and targeted campaigns for particular issues. Public forms, leaflets and guides are provided on the website that can be downloaded or ordered on-line. Any number of forms required will be posted. There is a 24 hour telephone number for requesting forms and leaflets. A PAYE self-service mobile telephone text messaging facility has been introduced that enables customers to request PAYE forms, leaflets and certain tax credits by mobile telephone which can be accessed anywhere at anytime. Information offices are located in Dublin, Galway, Castlebar, Letterkenny, Sligo, Athlone, Dundalk, Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny, Thurles, Cork, Limerick and Tralee. There are lo-call telephone services based in the regions to cover various counties.

The Revenue Commissioners are very proactive in ensuring citizens know their entitlements. This does not shift the responsibility to the Revenue Commissioners to ensure the tax liability of every individual taxpayer is as it should be. That remains the responsibility of the taxpayer. It should not be suggested that the Revenue is not proactive in disseminating accurate and relevant information to each taxpayer when all available media mechanisms are used to make it as user-friendly as possible.

We can discuss later the latest advances with which the Revenue Commissioners are taking proactive steps to ensure people can deal with all these issues on-line and as quickly as possible. However, there is no dearth of information or a lack of effort. It is quite the contrary. It is only fair that this should be the context in which any discussion on the matter takes place. The suggestion then is the extent to which the Ombudsman can publicise it any better than what is being done already. Do we want the system to work more effectively or do we want another bureaucracy? What we must do is ensure the information is available to taxpayers in so far as it is possible to do so without taking on the responsibility of each taxpayer.

The PAYE system is not a tax system; it is an income tax collection mechanism. It is designed to collect, in so far as is possible, an employee's correct liability to income tax for a year within that year. Deputies will be aware that this intended result is achieved through a cumulative system where reliefs and liabilities are accumulated on a pay day to pay day basis. At any point during the year, the amount of tax deducted from an employee should be appropriate to his or her earnings up to that point. That is in contrast to the systems operated in other jurisdictions which operate on the basis of a non-cumulative deduction system. Under such a system periodic tax deductions are regarded as payments on account and it is necessary for all taxpayers to file returns at the end of the year to ascertain whether tax has been underpaid or overpaid. However, the PAYE system's ability to operate in the manner intended in individual cases is dependent on the taxpayer concerned supplying to Revenue correct and full information regarding his or her income and tax entitlements. Without such information, any system is prone, in the same way as a non-cumulative system, to throw up underpayments or overpayments. In the case of the majority of taxpayers, the system operates as intended.

In general, overpayments will arise because the taxpayer will not have notified Revenue of his or her full entitlements by the start of the year or notified Revenue of a change of circumstances during the course of the year — for example, entitlements to additional benefits or a cessation of employment. In some instances, the notification from the taxpayer would be received too late to allow the employer to grant the relief during the year. In a considerable number of cases, the overpayment arises from a relief that can only be claimed or fully quantified after the end of the year — for example, medical expenses. In other instances, what may be thought to be an overpayment may turn out to be an underpayment because non-PAYE sources of income have not been taken into account, or fully taken into account, in the deduction of tax under the PAYE system.

In ensuring the proper operation of the PAYE system and, indeed, of the tax system generally, the Revenue Commissioners have been proactive in advising taxpayers through various forms of media communications of their entitlements and obligations to which I have referred. To enhance the effectiveness of the PAYE system in collecting only the correct amount of tax, Revenue made a fundamental alteration in the way tax deductions are calculated in 2001. Prior to 2001, they were calculated by reference to a table allowance system. Under that system, tax was deducted at the taxpayer's marginal rate but an additional allowance, a table allowance, was given to compensate for tax overdeducted from income liable at lower rates. Since an advance estimation of income was required for the year, this system was prone to underpayments or overpayments where the estimation was not accurate enough. We now have a system where the tax is deducted at both the standard rate up to the standard rate cut off point and, where appropriate, the marginal rate. That has removed the potential for incorrect tax deductions which existed under the table allowance system.

The bottom line is that where a taxpayer has overpaid tax for a year under the PAYE system, he or she is in the best position to know and, indeed, in many instances, the taxpayer will be the only person who knows that tax has been overpaid. Therefore, bringing forward a further bureaucratic mechanism does not change those basic facts. The focus has been, and will continue to be, on ensuring the taxpayer is made aware of his or her entitlements. As I said, that is done very proactively by Revenue. Apart from anything else, it is a good way of avoiding unnecessary work. Revenue is only interested in collecting the correct liability and not the incorrect liability, whether it is overpaid or underpaid.

For that reason, I oppose the amendment. It would divert the Ombudsman's office away from doing more productive and meaningful work within its remit under statute. My attitude is that we should concentrate on making the system as effective as possible rather than inventing a new bureaucracy.

I am very disappointed by the Minister's response. The amendment is simple and straightforward and it requires the Ombudsman to include, in her annual report, a special report on the overpayment of tax by PAYE taxpayers. I do not know what the Minister or the Revenue Commissioners have to fear. I do not know why the Minister is nervous of the Revenue Commissioners being held accountable in regard to compliant PAYE taxpayers making overpayments and the extent of same being disclosed.

According to Revenue's figures, there were overpayments of €306 million in 2003, €267 million in 2002 and €193 million 2001. It is estimated that approximately €170 million is outstanding in repayments due to taxpayers. That is a significant amount of money, although in terms of the totality of PAYE tax collected, it is not that large. However, the amount outstanding is the equivalent of 170 large lotto prizes.

I invite the Minister to test how off the tax credit system is for people whose circumstances change. Of course, it is primarily the responsibility of a taxpayer to make a return or statement as to his or her entitlements. However, the Minister is very removed from reality if he believes a string of freefone numbers and Revenue offices means everybody gets what he or she are entitled to. I am afraid he is being very sanguine if he believes that is sufficient. Many people are quite frightened of Revenue and have good reason to be so. However, there are many people who are compliant but are not technically aware of their entitlements.

The self-assessment system has been in place for self-employed people for many years. Only approximately 250 random audits are carried out each year on self-employed people who are not profiled as a risk. People who are self-employed get quite a good deal and they normally have a requirement, or the wherewithal, to employ accountants. I am making a case for advocacy on behalf of the ordinary, compliant taxpayer. As I said, the system is experiencing increasing difficulty coping with changes of circumstances.

The second situation which, in a way, is separate relates to people who have unclaimed allowances. As I said, the number of medical practitioners who give receipts to patients in their surgeries varies. The new medical centres tend to give receipts because people pay at the receptionist's desk. However, many medical practitioners take the money directly from the paying patient and people must go back afterwards to get a receipt because they are friendly with the doctor and would not remember to ask for a receipt at that point. There is significant underclaiming in respect of medical expenses, refuse charges and other areas.

There is a growing private medical industry in Ireland which is tax funded. That section of the medical industry, including the private hospitals found all over the country, was significantly tax aided by the former Minister, Deputy McCreevy. The private hospitals have accounting systems in place. They advise patients of the tax implications of purchasing their treatments and services and encourage them to do so. The treatments and services offered by such hospitals are availed of by the better-off in Irish society, by and large.

My amendment proposes that the Ombudsman should produce an annual report on the overcharging of PAYE by the Revenue Commissioners. The Minister and the Revenue Commissioners have nothing to fear from this positive proposal. I urge the Minister to rethink the matter and to accept this perfectly reasonable provision, which should be a feature of our tax system. Compliant taxpayers have a duty to pay their taxes, but the Revenue Commissioners have an equal duty to give individuals a fair shake and to ensure, as far as possible, that they get their allowances and do not overpay their taxes. The evidence supplied by the Revenue Commissioners suggests that the level of overpayment is significant.

The Minister has not explained why claims for the repayment of overpayments are subject to a four-year cap. I do not understand why that provision is in place. Such administrative tidying up probably suits civil servants, but it is very unfair to taxpayers with small incomes who discover they are no longer entitled to refunds because four years have elapsed. It is difficult for people who are getting on in years, for example, to address their tax affairs on an up-to-date basis. They often find the experience frightening and are not sure of what they are doing. If the Office of the Ombudsman was ascertaining whether taxpayers are being given a fair deal, the Revenue Commissioners might smarten up their act.

If the Revenue Commissioners were to discover tomorrow that there had been an underpayment of tax of €375 million, they would move mountains to determine what had gone wrong in the system. They would engage agencies to help them to understand what had broken down, where the leakage had taken place and how their systems could be made more effective. While the Minister has not denied that there has been a leakage of the scale of €375 million, money that has not been refunded at any stage, he has argued that many things are being done, for example in respect of lo-call telephone numbers, etc. Such measures are not working, however. If one discovers that a system one uses when dealing with one's customers is not working, one changes that system. The Revenue Commissioners do not need to change their system, however, because they are not suffering — their customers are suffering.

The Minister does not have a sufficient sense of urgency in this regard. I appreciate that this problem cannot be solved in a day, but the Minister is giving the impression that he is fairly satisfied with the way things are. He is prepared to tweak certain aspects of the system, for example by providing for direct electronic returns. I accept that the Bill proposes a good amendment in this regard. There is a need for more urgency in the Minister's approach.

It has been suggested that the occurrences of overpayment and underpayment indicate that the system is not working properly. No system has been designed to ensure that the exact amount of tax that is due is properly paid in the cases of each of 1.6 million people. There is no system that caters for a change of circumstances during the year about which the Revenue Commissioners are not informed. The suggestion that the existence of an underpayment and overpayment system within the overall system is a defect within that system is totally at variance with——

That is not what I am saying.

It was suggested earlier that the Office of the Ombudsman should be given a role in this regard to ensure that compliant taxpayers were looked after. Over 270,000 individual taxpayers, from a total of 1.6 million, look after themselves at the end of the year by making arrangements with the Revenue Commissioners on the basis of changes of circumstances which can arise for a range of reasons which were mentioned on Second Stage, during many debates on finance issues and again today. I do not refer to 275,000 cowering taxpayers who are afraid to approach the Revenue Commissioners.

We should deal with the issue as it stands. It has been suggested that I am not familiar with the reality, but I do not understand the reality that has been suggested. One quarter of a million supposedly frightened taxpayers contact the Revenue Commissioners every year to discuss overpayments and underpayments. Deputy Burton's argument does not gain additional merit by being exaggerated.

I have explained the operation of the cumulative system, which works better than a non-cumulative system for taxpayers. Deputies Bruton and Burton mentioned various figures. The level of repayment so far is approximately 2.5% of the total take of €7.2 billion. Some adjustments are being made. One quarter of those who make inquiries are not entitled to repayment. When their cases are checked out, it transpires that one third of them have made an underpayment rather than an overpayment. The idea that this is a one-way street is statistically incorrect on all fronts. It is not the case that taxpayers are cowering and fearful. I am sure they are anxious to deal with the Revenue Commissioners because they have been paying less tax on their disposal income for the last eight years than they did beforehand, as a consequence of the tax reforms introduced by this Administration.

I am not convinced by the argument that another form of bureaucracy should be given an advocacy role in this regard. Over 250,000 people, of a total of 1.6 million taxpayers, assert their rights as citizens and taxpayers in their normal dealings with the Revenue Commissioners every year. I am sure the same 250,000 people do not approach the Revenue Commissioners every year.

Deputy Burton asked about the four-year limit for repayment claims, which was introduced in the Finance Act 2003 as part of a package of measures, which included a statutory right to repayment of tax overpaid and interest on repayments, subject to certain conditions. The package was introduced after the Ombudsman submitted a special report on redress for taxpayers to the Oireachtas in November 2002. The package was designed to achieve the necessary balance between establishing a fair and uniform system for taxpayers and providing the necessary protection for the Exchequer against claims for the repayment of tax going back many years. The package was welcomed by the Ombudsman.

We were here for that debate. We remember it.

I was reminding Deputies about the source of the provision.

I wish to respond to the Minister's earlier remarks. I anticipated that he would speak about the additional bureaucracy that might be needed to address the current inequities in the tax system. The introduction of an independent advocacy role for the Office of the Ombudsman, as proposed in Deputy Burton's amendment, would involve such additional bureaucracy. There is a need for real reform of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. Despite the Minister's staunch defence of the current arrangements, there is at best an apparent and often presenting mindset within that office. I continue to believe that this is a one-way street for the overwhelming body of PAYE taxpayers. We should not make any mistake in that regard.

The Minister has made a laudable defence of the current arrangements. He mentioned an extensive list of efforts which have been employed, such the circulation of information on a website and in other texts, which invariably do not reach the broad mass of ordinary taxpayers about whom I speak because they are presented in prohibitive language and a most uninviting format. Most ordinary taxpayers do not have Internet access or competency. I stated clearly in my earlier contribution that we need to ensure that the language and presentation of the texts we circulate should demonstrate an understanding of the taxpayers' lowest common denominator. Otherwise we would exclude taxpayers from access to their right to tax credits under the current system. It is a fact that it is not being met. It does not require a stoic and staunch defence on the part of the Minister but rather preparedness to acknowledge that there is a significant section of the tax-paying public that does not currently enjoy fair assessment of its overall tax obligations. That is because the tax credit system is neither understood nor properly explained. Taxpayers are missing out on entitlements to reductions in their PAYE contributions. This matter has to be addressed. It will not be addressed by denying it. It is regrettable that the Minister is not prepared to acknowledge that this is the reality in society. It would be very helpful if he accepted that it needed to be addressed by whatever means possible. I would certainly welcome his saying he will do so.

On the point regarding taxpayers who are now at the lowest level as a result of the efforts of the current and former Administrations since 1997, the reality regarding indirect taxation and the introducing of stealth taxes at several levels is that, although the Minister may be able to claim less is being paid by individual PAYE taxpayers, they are actually paying into the Exchequer, between stealth and indirect taxes, such sums as lead me to believe the overall situation does not represent an improvement but borders on being worse than it was before. We must consider the matter in a more holistic way and recognise what people have to grapple with.

Making assertions continuously does not make them true. For example, it is incorrect to assert that ordinary taxpayers are paying more through indirect taxation and local charges than was the case before tax reform.

The composite figure is arguable.

No, it is not even arguable. The average industrial wage earner now has €11,000 more in his or her pocket than when the Government took office. I believe I saw a Fine Gael document that suggested the average family was paying an extra €2,000, or some such figure, in stealth taxes. They are not stealth taxes but lawful taxes, the same as every other tax. The Deputy and others call them "stealth taxes" to whip up emotion. "Stealth" is not a word I would use in present circumstances. Even if one deducted €2,000 from €11,000, one would still be way ahead in terms of the average industrial wage. The case is not even arguable.

Let us consider Deputy Ó Caoláin's idea that the Office of the Revenue Commissioners is not doing everything it can to notify PAYE earners of their entitlements. His opinion is that it is a one-way street. Obviously, I have not been able to convince him of the contrary today and probably will not be able to do so tomorrow but the objective evidence is against him. The Office of the Revenue Commissioners is bringing forward proposals. As Deputy Bruton confirmed, one proposed amendment to the Bill originated in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, the purpose of which is to further enhance and improve accessibility for ordinary taxpayers such that they will know precisely their correct liability.

The assessment of liability is based on information available to the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. It is individual taxpayers who make this information available to the Revenue Commissioners, not the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman cannot help in this situation. I am simply making the point that we should focus on the issue at hand. I am not suggesting that everything is perfect in every respect. As I stated, no system has been designed that does not require a balancing statement if there is a change of circumstances during the course of the year. The only person who can tell the Office of the Revenue Commissioners about the change of circumstances is the taxpayer. Taxpayers are doing so in their hundreds of thousands. They are having their liabilities amended. In some cases, unfortunately, they find they have to pay more in tax after the office has checked their details. It works both ways, in the same way as the four year time limit cuts both ways. The latter is a limit on pursuing under-payments. There is a limit just as there is a limit on making repayments.

I do not accept the underlying sentiment that the Office of the Revenue Commissioners is not proactive in ensuring the correct liability is paid. For good tax collection reasons, the office is doing everything to ensure it avoids unnecessary work in order that it can concentrate on those who are not being compliant. It has had much success in concentrating on the latter category in recent years and wants to continue to focus on those sectors in which it believes further investigation is required. It is a question of good management practice.

The system is providing for repayments for those who apply if they are entitled to them. As I stated, the total amount so far amounts to 2.5% of the PAYE tax collected. If one divides the €185 million due for repayment by 1.6 million, one arrives at a sum of approximately €90, the average for every taxpayer. If one believes the Ombudsman will improve on this, considering all the extra costs and labour one will impose on her, one should pursue the matter. However, although I understand the reason this amendment was tabled, namely, for the purpose of debate, I do not understand what its intrinsic benefit would be. It would be far better to ensure the individual taxpayer was fully aware of his or her entitlements. This message should be communicated in as effective a way as possible.

Many initiatives were taken by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, including, at the start of the year, showing taxpayers what they were entitled to claim when their tax allowances were determined. One can do everything possible but ultimately one cannot replace the responsibility of individual taxpayers to ensure they make the necessary claims they are entitled to make under law. We cannot do this job for them, although we will do everything we can to assist.

I want to pursue the matter further. The Minister does not show an adequate understanding of the role of the Ombudsman. I know the Government moved smartly to close down the Freedom of Information Act once it found it was effective in throwing light on its actions. The point of the Office of the Ombudsman is not to take every case but to take a sample number in which taxpayers are not afforded their full rights, for instance, because the administrative system is proving awkward in coping with the cases put forward. In the case presented to this committee to which the Minister referred there was an injustice done to a number of taxpayers. The Office of the Revenue Commissioners was extremely nervous that remedying the injustice done would result in unfair claims by many other taxpayers as a consequence of the Ombudsman's examination.

A parallel case concerns nursing homes. Anyone involved in public administration ought to be open to accepting that while public administrators operate, by and large, with the very best of motives and under the instructions of the Government, interpretations of law and administrative practice are often such that something wrong is done. It may not be intentional but the consequences for the individual taxpayers are such that they are not dealt with properly. That is where the Ombudsman could step in. It is not a question of the Ombudsman looking at every case but of introducing an additional mechanism for accountability. This would give compliant taxpayers recourse where a situation develops such that they are overpaying.

Neither the Revenue Commissioners nor the Minister ought be threatened by extra accountability in the way the Minister indicates. The Minister projects a vista of 600,000 or 700,000 taxpayers telephoning the Ombudsman's office. That will not happen.

I did not suggest that.

The Minister suggested we were gilding the lily.

I said that last year 270,000 people sought extensions.

The Minister read out a list of 70 or 80 Revenue offices, help and phone points throughout the country. That is a positive development. Nevertheless, some people do not get their full entitlement. The principle ought to be that there is a transparent and accountable mechanism for people who now go to the Ombudsman.

In his desire to slap down the amendment the Minister is perhaps reading more into it than it states. It asks the Ombudsman to issue a special report "on the overpayment of tax by PAYE taxpayers" as part of the annual report. The Minister envisaged the poor Ombudsman dealing with 250,000 taxpayers. That is not the case. Most of those taxpayers will deal effectively, we hope, with the list of offices which the Minister read out. Unfortunately, not all will and some people are nervous of dealing with the Revenue Commissioners. They are compliant but not confidently assertive about their rights vis-à-vis the Revenue Commissioners.

An extra power for the Ombudsman would help to redress that imbalance between a large and powerful institution and the individual. I commend the amendment to the committee and thank members who have supported it.

Is the amendment being put?

In accordance with the order of the Dáil on 24 February the taking of the division is postponed until 2 p.m. or until the completion of proceedings on the matters to be dealt with within this session.

Amendment No. 2 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 3 and 11 are related and will be discussed together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 11, before section 1, to insert the following new section:

"1.—The tax bands, exemption limits and tax credits relating to income tax set out in the Finance Act 2004 are hereby increased by such rate as would maintain the real value of those bands, limits and credits in terms of changes in the cost of living since 2003.".

The purpose of this amendment is to restore to taxpayers what was taken away from them in the last two budgets introduced by the previous Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy. By failing to index the tax bands he introduced the biggest stealth taxes ever imposed in the history of the State. The result is that more than half of PAYE taxpayers pay at the top rate. This amendment seeks to restore equity and justice to PAYE taxpayers.

The former Minister for Finance specialised in finance and budget specials for his legion of friends, for whom he introduced numerous tax breaks. There were so many of these tax breaks that even the Revenue Commissioners had difficulty keeping track of them. During the last two years of former Deputy McCreevy's reign the compliant PAYE taxpayer was the victim of the greatest stealth tax in our history through his failure to index credits and allowances. The Labour Party amendment seeks to restore some level of justice to these taxpayers.

The Minister will reply that many people were moved out of the tax net. By the end of the year the discussions on raising the minimum wage will result in most of those people being moved back into the tax net. A single person earning over €31,000 who works overtime pays tax at 42% on his or her overtime earnings. This contrasts with the many quite wealthy people who either pay no tax or who do so at the 20% rate.

Since former Deputy McCreevy departed from office the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance have adopted a different tone. The Taoiseach said he found it unacceptable that people earning over €200,000 a year paid no tax. He agreed with the Labour Party's position on this. I welcome the Minister's statement that he is going to weed people on high incomes who pay no tax out of the tax system.

There is another remedial job to do, namely to restore to PAYE taxpayers the effects of former Deputy McCreevy's stealth taxes. At times former Deputy McCreevy appeared to be Robin Hood in reverse, giving to the wealthy and taking plenty of tax from people who are less well off. I hope the Minister will take the opportunity today to introduce some element of tax justice for PAYE taxpayers and in particular to reverse the effect of the biggest stealth taxes of them all, the failure to index the bands and allowances in recent years.

While the words "stealth tax" seem to upset the Minister somewhat——

They are purposely dishonest.

Would the Minister allow me to develop the point? One should not be taxed on paper increases in one's income. When he starts his budget the Minister should index all the allowances and bands upwards according to the cost of living in the intervening period and then decide on taxes for the coming year. In that way he would maintain the tax code on the same basis.

Otherwise, the Minister takes money out of people's pockets by stealth because they are no better off in real terms than they were the previous year but he allows the tax code to collect more money from them. It is reasonable to describe that as a stealth tax; no one would dispute that.

The tax statistics published by the Department of Finance are revealing. In the period before 2002 there was a steady reduction year on year in the number paying at the top rate of tax. It fell from 543,000 to 487,000. After the election, when the previous Minister stopped indexing the tax code, and did not return to people through credits what they would have expected based on inflation, the reverse happened and the number soared from 487,000 to the 633,000 the Minister quoted for this year. The Minister may say that some extra people were at work but that does not account for this change. It is driven largely by failure to index bands and reliefs.

If one wants to begin a process of reform of the budget and have a more realistic debate about our tax options, if people are not better off this year than they were last year, one should not extract from them an extra tax payment. This is what the Minister is doing by not indexing taxes. He is saying that people who are no better off this year than they were last year must still pay more. This is an unfair stealth tax. We should be moving towards a system which will guarantee indexation. The Minister should say that indexation will cost a certain amount and, against that background, he will make certain decisions for future budgets. I am aware that Ministers for Finance do not want to restrict their freedom of operation in that way. However, if he wants to be fair to taxpayers, this is what he should do. The former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, was sometimes sympathetic to the idea, but when the going got rough, he completely changed his view.

It is interesting to note that since 2002 the proportion of taxpayers paying income tax at the top rate increased from 26.7% to 35.9%. There was almost a 10% increase in the number of people paying at the top rate. This is what is happening. The Minister might not like to refer to it as a stealth tax, but most people regard it as a stealth tax. It is not a fair way to deal with taxpayers. It should be rooted out and fair rules should be applied in respect of taxation. The amendments which are being proposed would begin that process.

I support the basic premise behind both amendments which seek to ensure that the rates that apply annually in respect of bands, limits, credits, etc., are changed in line with the rate of inflation. The necessary changes as mooted should be presented in the budget statement by the Minister. It is important for the reasons already articulated that people should see a real and substantive change and improvement in their circumstances, one which is not whittled away through inflation.

Amendment No. 11 is an example of the type of difficult language to which I referred earlier. It is convoluted and complex to say the least. However, I appreciate the outline of the amendment and the premise behind it, which I support.

I support the thrust of both amendments. Amendment No. 3 seeks to correct the imbalance that has taken place in failing to index link tax codes in recent budgets. Deputy Bruton's amendment No. 11 goes further. It proposes that such indexation should take place as a matter of course in each budget, which many of us would like to see happen. Indexation of tax codes is a standard feature of tax systems throughout the world. I do not understand why the Department of Finance continues to advance the argument that this cannot and should not happen. Deputy Bruton's amendment, which is relevant in this regard, should be supported.

In terms of the cost to the State, it makes a nonsense of the ruling on how amendments are or are not accepted because one cannot have a report drawn up or an internal committee established to investigate a particular item. However, one can suggest that a tax credit be established which would mean less money going into the coffers of the Exchequer. The Committee on Finance and the Public Service should make suggestions on how the committee and the House can operate effectively, particularly Opposition Members, when the rules are so out of line with any type of logic.

The total amount of tax returned by the Government through its tax policies since coming into office amounts to €6.2 billion.

Of what?

Some €6.2 billion has been returned in tax changes by this Administration since returning to office.

Is the Government collecting €6.2 billion less in tax?

No. Over all the budgets, €6.2 billion was the amount taken in terms of tax reliefs to workers.

Does this mean the stealth tax is getting bigger?

No, it is not bigger. The Deputy's problem is how to prove my predecessor favoured the rich.

The Minister should examine the evidence.

Deputy Burton was worried about people on the average industrial wage paying income tax at the marginal rates. When her party was in office it was okay for people on €19,000 to start paying tax at the higher rate of 42%.

What was the average income then?

The average industrial wage was €19,000. The other rich person my predecessor looked after was the person on the minimum wage. There was no minimum wage when the Deputy's party was in office. She spoke a lot about it but did not introduce it. Before reaching €100 per week, on just €98, one paid income tax under the socialist Nirvana of Deputy Quinn and Deputy Burton.

The Minister's party has been in office for 18 of the past 20 years. I thought the Minister's leader was now a socialist.

It appears I will be interrupted fairly regularly.

Given that the Minister wants to talk about socialism, I thought his leader was a socialist.

(Interruptions).

The Minister did not interrupt the Deputy. The Deputy must allow the Minister to speak.

The Deputy's problem is that she never knew where the real Labour Party was in Ireland.

Is that a "yes" to socialism?

We looked after working men and women in this country much better than her party. All the facts and figures prove it. The Deputy can talk all she likes about the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, who is now in Europe, as being a friend of the rich man. However, the fact is that 600,000 extra people are now at work. The reality is that these people are paying less tax and getting more wages. The Deputy can table amendments to try and change the picture all she likes but over three budgets her party decreased income tax rates by 1% for ordinary people.

I am pleased the Minister said "rates".

The people remember that, which is why she is where she is and I am where I am. People vote for those who look after them, which is why my party is in Government.

Will the Minister address the issue?

I will deal with the issue. Deputy Burton decided to introduce pejorative terms, which is becoming boring. The European Commissioner is in Europe. I am here as Minister for Finance. Therefore, she must deal with me as she finds me. She was not able for my predecessor, so perhaps she will do better with me.

I did okay.

All the opinion polls say so.

We saw off the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy. The leader had to let him go.

The Minister should be allowed to conclude without interruption. He listened to four Opposition spokespersons without interruption.

This is the first defence we heard of the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, who was dumped by Fianna Fáil.

(Interruptions).

The Deputy must allow the Minister to proceed.

The Deputy should try to figure out where the Labour Party is going; she should not worry about Fianna Fáil, which will look after its own affairs. She should try to find out where the Labour Party is going, because currently it is going nowhere.

I should speak to the amendments because people opposite are getting very excited. Both amendments propose indexation. They aim to increase the tax bands, exemption limits and tax credits for the projected increase in CPI for 2005 over 2003 by an estimated 4.75%. We never had an amendment proposing to stick to the CPI in previous budgets when we went way beyond indexing by CPI. I suppose that is politics.

The Government could not accept an approach which seeks to impose indexation across a range of personal credits, credit bands or exemption limits in order to target available resources in these areas where the greatest priority for attention has been identified. That is a matter for the Government. In budget 2005, priority for attention was identified as the removal of the current national minimum wage from the tax net.

Regarding Deputy Bruton's amendment, the Government could not accept an approach involving a kind of mandatory ear-marked tax expenditure which could limit the Government's flexibility in determining budgetary priorities having regard to economic realities in any given year. Again, this is a matter for the Government and no Minister for Finance would wish to be so constrained.

Regarding Deputy Burton's amendment, the percentage increases provided from the budget personal tax package were considerably more than indexation in many instances. The employee tax credit was increased by 22%. The health levy threshold was increased by more than 12%. The age exemption limits were increased by 6.5%. The incapacitated child tax credit was doubled in value from €500 to €1,000. The blind person's tax credit was increased by 25%. The widowed person's tax credit was increased by 33%.

Available resources in budget 2005 were employed primarily with the lower paid and the elderly in mind. Accordingly, the basic personal credit and employee PAYE credit were increased to fully exempt the minimum waged from taxation. The health levy threshold was increased significantly, and the age exemption limits for those aged 65 and over were increased for the fourth year in a row. To the extent that money was available for other measures, it was used to widen the standard rate band which has the effect of taking income earners off the top rate of tax.

The approach in budget 2005 was fully in line with the commitment contained in An Agreed Programme for Government to deliver further real improvements to pensioners and to people on low incomes and to try to achieve a position where all those on the national minimum wage would be removed from the tax net. The Government is committed to sustaining growth, strengthening and maintaining the competitive position of the economy, and maintaining full employment. Responsible and targeted fiscal policies are central to the achievement of those aims and the proposal as outlined by the Deputies would be inconsistent with this approach. Therefore, I cannot accept these amendments.

I am sorry the Minister should display such extraordinary sensitivity regarding stealth tax. The greatest con job ever pulled on the Irish electorate was the failure to properly increase personal credits and allowances, particularly in the last two budgets introduced by the former Minister for Finance.

In his first budget the current Minister went some way to at least reflect what has happened over the past year. The Minister has gone out of his way, since the former Minister was dumped so unceremoniously by Fianna Fáil, to seek to attend to some of the very bad things Mr. McCreevy did during his eight years as Minister for Finance. He did some good things, but in the context of equity and fairness in the tax system, he created an enviable scenario for very wealthy people to avail of tax breaks, unparalleled in the history of this State.

The Minister may respond that this resulted in additional investment. Certainly some of it did. Every party in this House has been a party to creating tax incentives for particular types of activity. However, what Mr. McCreevy did was on an entirely different scale. Much of it was unnecessary and unwarranted. Side by side with this bonanza of tax avoidance he created for particularly well-off people, he failed to index tax bands and tax allowance and credits for ordinary taxpayers. This is a nettle the Taoiseach agreed in principle to grasp at Inchydoney following confession time with Fr. Healy. In his budget the Minister attempted to address some of that. However, there is a long way to go to make up for the great stealth tax robbery by former Minister McCreevy of PAYE taxpayers in terms of tax credits and allowances.

The purpose of the Labour Party amendment is to seek to effect some redress and justice for PAYE taxpayers. Many of us are familiar with the scenario in the byways of Meath and Kildare where developers have made tens of millions of euro. People spend four and a half hours commuting from these areas to Dublin. They pay tax and for child care.

The Minister spoke about all the wonderful things he did in the budget. Child care did not merit a mention in the budget. These people are paying and paying. They are paying a lot of money for houses many miles from Dublin where many of them work. They cannot get their children into a primary school. If they get sick or have to attend a doctor or a hospital, they face a difficult scenario. They may be lying on a trolley for days.

Ordinary PAYE taxpayers are not getting a good deal from the Government. There is one deal for the very well off and another for the ordinary person. Fianna Fáil's propaganda defending the indefensible is often so good that it takes people some time to wake up and smell the coffee, but they may be doing that at the moment.

I am not surprised by the view the Minister is taking. It shows how deep is the sense of acceptance that he can rip people off in this way when we see the Minister getting notes from his officials stating that the Government gave back €6,000 million. The truth is that the tax take under this Government has increased from €23 million to €48 million, for all sorts of reasons.

The economy has expanded.

The economy has, of course, expanded but, if am allowed, I will develop this. I do not dispute the success of the country's economic policy. That is down to a number of Governments. I do not dispute that Fianna Fáil made a considerable contribution. What I dispute is the pretence that by taxing inflationary gain the Government is giving something away. It is not giving something away. The Minister said it would be impossible for the Government to consider accepting this amendment because it would pre-empt its priorities. In other words, he is saying that he, the Minister for Finance, is entitled to take more each year, year on year from people whose income standard has not changed without going to the Dáil for permission. That is what the Minister is saying is acceptable and that it would be impossible to consider a scenario in which that would not be acceptable. I do not agree with the Minister.

To take up the point made by Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, tax as a proportion of GNP has also increased under this Government. The difficulty is that when the Minister is calculating how much tax the Government takes, he does not count PRSI, health levies, commercial rates paid by businesses, motor tax or bin tax. There are many taxes that ordinary people pay that are not counted because the Minister chooses not to count them. His officials are presenting him with bogus information, for example, that the Government gave away €6,000 million. The Government gave away nothing. It is complete nonsense to say the Government gave away anything.

We are content to have automatic indexation in respect of capital acquisitions tax. That is part of the process. Every year the thresholds and bands are indexed. People agree that is reasonable. The Minister would agree it is reasonable. I agree it is reasonable. I understand the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, said it was reasonable. Why is it not reasonable in terms of the income tax paid by ordinary workers, the people the Minister says Fianna Fáil stands up for much better than Labour or anyone else? Why do the rules that apply to some taxes which are not paid by most workers not apply to taxes which are paid by all workers?

The Minister's line of argument does not stand up. We need to rethink the way we present our economic choices and not pretend the Government is entitled to take phoney gains and cream them off in tax. That is what it is doing by not indexing each year. We ought to change the way in which we put together our budgets. This is one of the changes I would like to see implemented as it would give a more realistic appraisal of our tax choices and prevent Ministers from assuming they could pocket the inflationary increases in this way.

I do not accept the Deputy's premise. It is for the Government to retain flexibility, make political choices and allocate resources, either through taxation savings or public expenditure.

This would not stop the Government from doing that. It would mean that on budget day the Minister for Finance would firstly be required to provide for indexation and then decide on other details.

I know that. However, we have seen circumstances in recessions, even during the period of office of Fine Gael-led Governments, when Ministers understood the reason they could not consider doing this.

The decision would be transparent, whereas the Minister is trying to make phoney——

That is not true.

The €6,000 million was an example of phoney accountancy.

It is not so, as I will explain. It is very simple. A worker on the average industrial wage pays €220 less in tax, even though he or she is paying——

The Minister is not facing the issue but getting into polemics.

I am not. The Deputy does not want to listen because it defeats his argument.

I heard the Minister say it ten, 20 or 100 times.

A worker on the average industrial wage today compared with when the Deputy was Minister for Enterprise and Employment pays €220 less in income tax, despite——

Is that the amount per year?

Yes. This is despite his or her income having risen by €11,000. That is the reality.

He or she is paying €4 per week less in income tax. What about VAT and bin charges?

As he or she is earning €11,000 more, it is more than €4.

The Minister wants to take credit for reducing his or her income tax by €4 per week. What about VAT and bin charges? Bin charges alone would absorb that amount.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to speak.

The Deputy will still not listen to the argument which still remains. He or she earns €11,000 more in wages and pays €220 less in tax.

What has that got to do with it?

We have been in government for the past eight years. I heard Deputy Burton asking what I would do for child care. The political progressives such as Deputies Bruton and Burton were in government for three years and introduced a €1 million pilot scheme.

The Government has had eight years. Has the Minister looked at his Government's pilot scheme?

(Interruptions).

The Minister cannot talk about engaging in polemics. He is not facing up to the issue.

The Minister has the floor.

He made a specific comment.

The tone and political slanging was started by Deputy Burton. If that is what she wants, she has come to the right place. I would have no problem spending the next three days doing this.

Why does the Minister not read the child care report?

I have no problem with it; I have a doctorate in it.

How much has been spent on administration and how little has gone on children?

The Minister has the floor.

I believe the increase in child benefit since we took office has been 278% at a time when the CPI has increased by 32% or 33%.

Does the Minister know what it costs to put a child in a crèche?

The Deputy should not interrupt. The Minister did not interrupt her.

Does he know what it costs to leave a baby in a crèche?

I ask the Deputy not to speak while the Chair is speaking.

The Minister was the last person to interrupt.

The Deputy may not speak while the Chair is speaking.

The Minister was allowed to interrupt.

I am in the Chair.

The Chairman will only rule for him, not for us.

The Deputy is attempting to speak over the Chair. She should allow business to be done in an orderly manner.

The Chairman allowed the Minister to interrupt Deputy Bruton. Will he restore some order?

The Deputy is the disorderly one.

No, I am not.

Any member who interrupts when the Chair is speaking is being disorderly.

Has the Chairman finished?

The Minister has the floor.

On a point of order, the practice in this committee up to now has been that Opposition spokespersons move amendments and that the Minister replies at the end.

That has happened today.

Deputy Bruton was speaking. Deputy Ó Caoláin had his hand up to speak and the Chairman allowed the Minister to come back in for a second time. That is a complete departure.

It is not.

It allowed the Minister to engage in some knockabout fun. Two Carmelites are sitting at the table who have not yet opened their mouths.

They are also entitled to speak.

Will the Deputy support them?

(Interruptions).

I do not know if they even had their hands up.

Perhaps they have made more sense than some of the contributions so far.

On the Opposition amendments to date, I have allowed the four Opposition members to speak before calling the Minister.

No, the Chairman allowed the Minister back in.

This is the second round.

While it is not very often that I defend Sinn Féin, Deputy Ó Caoláin had his hand up forlornly and the Chairman allowed the Minister back in.

On this amendment, after the four Opposition spokespersons had spoken, I called the Minister. I then went back to the two Deputes who had tabled the amendments we are discussing, amendment No. 3 in the name of Deputy Burton and amendment No. 11 in the name of Deputy Bruton, after which I called the Minister. I have indicated to Deputy Ó Caoláin that he is next in line. I ask the Minister to conclude free of interruption.

I shall conclude at this stage and allow Deputy Ó Caoláin to speak.

I thank the Minister who has indicated that some €6 billion has either been given back to or not been taken from the taxpayer. Does this indicate that the Department has costings for the property-based reliefs or exemptions for which his predecessor was unable to give figures in response to parliamentary questions I tabled some 18 months to two years ago? Do we now have costings for the net effect of the raft of exemptions which have been accessed by taxpayers, developers, property speculators, etc? While I welcome and support some of the schemes, major question marks remain over others. I await the outcome of the review. I am very interested to know if we now have figures and whether that information is available. I ask the Minister to provide a breakdown of the €6 billion he mentioned.

On the proposal to index link tax bands, limits, credits etc., nothing in what the Minister has said counters the sane and sensible arguments in favour of a direct link to adjust all these items in line with inflation to ensure equilibrium. Whatever changes are introduced thereafter should form part of the Budget Statement. The situation is undoubtedly warped and kinked as inflation is not factored into the overall statement or explanation. This proposal is worthy of support.

The Minister's response with the percentage increases over the period of the present and previous Administrations' period of tenure does not in any way diminish or dismiss the contention in the two amendments tabled by Deputies Burton and Bruton. If he has any substantive argument, he should respond to the issue addressed in the amendments. What he has said does not counter the arguments presented.

I ask the Minister to answer the questions I have posed about the figure of €6 billion and the proposal to index link the various elements of the taxation code prior to introducing changes in the Budget Statement.

The sum of €6.2 billion relates to personal tax, PRSI and levy concessions over the past eight budgets. The eight budget booklets are available and if the figures are added they come to €6.2 billion.

Is that over and above inflation or does it include inflation?

That is the cost of the packages.

It does not sum up the allowances.

Does it include the inflation provision?

The Deputy may reduce the inflation provision if he wishes. What I am saying is that this is the amount in the eight consecutive budgets for personal tax, PRSI and levy concessions.

They are bogus figures.

They are not. Deputy Bruton may continue with that nonsense as long as he likes.

That is the truth. We are debating whether the Minister should include indexation as a concession.

The sum of €6.2 billion is the value of the tax packages of eight consecutive budgets under a Fianna Fáil-led Administration.

For clarification, does it include the elements of the property-based schemes?

No. That work is only beginning as the Deputy knows and will be done during the course of this year.

Are those costings available yet?

No. Obviously I am doing a comprehensive review of that. The Deputies asked what the €6.2 billion was and I have explained what it is. With regard to the package, I have put forward substantive arguments and do not feel the Deputies have any such arguments.

As it is now 2 p.m. the postponed division on amendment No. 1 will be taken.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 7.

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.

Níl

  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • O’Keeffe, Ned.
Amendment declared lost.

I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of 24 February: "That in respect of sections 1 to 3, each section undisposed of is hereby agreed to."

Question put and declared carried.
Sitting suspended at 2.10 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 13, before section 4, to insert the following new section:

"4.—The Minister shall review tax relief arrangements for private nursing homes to determine their compatibility with health criteria and in particular health and welfare related criteria regarding the size and location of facilities.".

I presume the intention of the amendment is to ensure that where tax relief is provided for private nursing homes, it would tie in with a need for reasonable planned delivery in accordance with need. Deputy Burton has raised the concern that as many facilities are located in rural areas on the outskirts of built-up areas, they often do not meet the needs of families. The amendment seeks to ensure such facilities would meet health criteria and would be accessible to persons wishing to avail of their services.

Tax relief in the form of capital allowances for the construction and refurbishment of private nursing homes was introduced in the Finance Act 1998 and applies to capital expenditure incurred on or after 3 December 1997.

The allowances are available over seven years at the rate of 15% per annum for the first six years and at the rate of 10% in the final year. The purpose of these allowances is to increase the supply of nursing home beds by encouraging the development of additional facilities, where the construction or refurbishment costs are incurred in the private sector. In this regard, I am satisfied that the allowances have contributed to the increase in bed numbers in private nursing homes from 6,932 at the end of 1997 to the figure in December 2003 of 13,178.

On a further point of information, the nursing homes which qualify for capital allowances are nursing homes that come within section 2 of the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990, which are registered under section 4 of that Act. Section 6 of that Act provides for the making of regulations by the Minister for Health and Children on the standards of those nursing homes. Accordingly, therefore, there is a regulatory system already in place in regard to the registration and operation of these nursing homes and the standards they must meet.

Deputy Burton's amendment appears to suggest that, as Minister for Finance, I become involved in assessing whether health and welfare criteria in relation to size and location of facilities in these nursing homes have been met. As I mentioned earlier, there is already a system in place under the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990 which governs the operation of nursing homes and the standards required. In particular, the regulations provided for under that Act govern "adequate and suitable accommodation". They allow the Minister for Health and Children to, among other things, prescribe requirements as to the design, maintenance, repair, cleaning and cleanliness, ventilation, heating and lighting of nursing homes, the accommodation, including the amount of space in bedrooms and wards, the washing facilities and sanitary conveniences provided in such nursing homes and the food provided for dependent persons in nursing homes. This regulatory system was in the past administered by health boards and will in future be administered by the Health Service Executive. For these reasons, I do not find the amendment necessary.

Is the amendment being pressed?

On a point of clarification, the point being raised by Deputy Burton is that effectively this is tax expenditure — in other words, we are providing taxpayer's money. If it was 100% tax funded, one would be demanding that it fit in with a health plan for nursing home needs in different parts of the country and that it meet an unmet need. The Department would be very insistent on such an assessment. When the boot is on the other foot and it involves tax relief, there does not seem to be an assessment of whether the facilities that are coming on stream are in accord with the need. The Minister did not address that aspect. He is right that the nursing homes must comply with standards in terms of space per patient, cleanliness and care levels. However, the issue is whether there should be a signing off and that there is an unmet need in the area where it is proposed to locate the nursing home.

We do not have a surfeit of nursing home places. The extra places provided by the private sector have been very necessary in terms of ensuring that nursing home care was available to meet the demand for it. I do not buy the argument that there are empty places in nursing homes which would be full if they were in a different location. Commercial considerations facilitate locating nursing homes in areas of demand. Obviously everybody would expect a regulatory framework. However, the provision of beds by the private sector has increased the numbers whereas the provision of beds by the public sector has not increased from 6,900 to 13,000 by any manner or means.

The amendment seeks that I review the tax relief arrangements. These arrangements are incorporated in the comprehensive review of capital allowances under the tax relief schemes that is being undertaken currently. If that is the purpose of the amendment, the matter is in hand. On the other question, I believe these homes are making a contribution to the provision of nursing home care for those who require it by improving the supply of beds.

While new nursing homes are coming on stream as a result of tax relief, is the provision of public beds in public nursing homes assessed? From my experience, public beds are being run down and taken out of the system at the same time the private sector is increasing the number of beds. It was forecast that the numbers aged over 65 years would increase by a figure in the order of 75% between 1995 and 2000 and that is the reason additional beds are coming on stream. Are we giving tax relief to nursing homes that are not viable and are surviving because of the tax relief that has been granted to them? Is there an obligation to ensure that the number of public beds keeps pace with the aging population rather than having their number diminishing?

Given the Minister's past experience as Minister for Health and Children, is his preference for direct funding for public beds or tax incentives being used to create beds in nursing homes? Following on from Deputy Paul McGrath's point, there is a view that the tax incentives have not gone to providing additional bed spaces but reallocating bed spaces from the public to the private sector. Has the Minister or his counterpart in the Department of Health and Children assessed the situation and has he or the Tánaiste information to counteract that impression?

The capital allocation for public nursing home beds has been increased consistently under this Administration. The total number of publicly managed beds in the system is 12,339.

The Department was to develop ten 50 public bed units, a total of 500 beds in the Eastern Health Board region, but it looks as if the project has been put on hold, shunted into the siding and is being left to the private sector. There is a policy issue as to which is the correct way to go. Arising from the recent court judgment, there is also the issue of the cost to the Exchequer of the different options and that is another unresolved issue because the Ombudsman has taken the view that even in respect of private nursing homes, the State has an exposure which it has not faced in meeting those costs. The debate on this issue goes beyond the scope of this discussion. However, there is a serious public policy issue on how we will address this growing area of need and I do not think it can be developed entirely through private provision. We must face up to the dilemma as to what will constitute best practice for the State.

I apologise to the Minister for not being present to move this amendment. I received an urgent telephone call and was not here. I raised this issue on a number of occasions with the current Minister and his predecessor, the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy. I am concerned that the following should be addressed. Is there any linkage between the tax breaks for nursing homes that were introduced by Mr. McCreevy and our health policy? The Hanly report made an exhaustive series of recommendations on various features of the health service, including the problem of people who are left long term in public hospital beds.

My experience of how this operates raises serious questions to be answered. When I discussed this with the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, some years ago, he told me on the record at a committee meeting that in his view the creation of the tax breaks would vastly increase the supply of beds and that this would drive down the cost of nursing home care. Some years have passed since then. It is my experience and I imagine that of every other member of the committee, that the cost of nursing home care has not gone down. I do not know that the price of nursing home care — with the emphasis on care — would be that much influenced by capital-based, property-based tax breaks. Will the Minister sustain his predecessor's point that the purpose of these tax breaks for nursing homes was to drive down the cost of nursing home care? I find no evidence of this, indeed, the cost of nursing home care has escalated at an alarming rate, being highly labour-intensive and demanding work.

I wish to raise a second issue. The Minister may be familiar with this situation in the greater Dublin area and areas around towns and cities. A number of operators are becoming involved in the private nursing homes business. Some operators in this market have long experience and it has been their life's work. They offer a very good, albeit expensive, service. Some national and international companies are setting up nursing homes and in my view those companies are in the business for the long term.

However, another type of operator is to be found in the area of north Dublin where land is zoned as agricultural. Such land is diminishing in areas of north and west Dublin and the county development plan ensures it is highly restricted for development purposes, except for agricultural and agriculture-related purposes. I am aware of instances where developers either buy the agricultural land belonging to a large, old farmhouse or hold options on that land. They develop these old country houses as nursing homes. However, the Minister should be aware that these buildings are situated on country roads, probably two to three miles from the nearest village. The Minister will be aware that the rural hinterland of north Dublin is extensive and is as large as many full counties. There are no footpaths and no transport services. While the services in the nursing home may be adequate, unless the family of an old person who enters such a nursing home is available to look after him or her and bring him or her out, he or she faces a life sentence when he or she goes into a home.

This should be contrasted with nursing homes around the country, such as the nursing home in the centre of Borris in County Carlow. Like nursing homes in France and Germany, it is situated just off the main street. A person who decides to live in such a nursing home retains a high level of capacity for independent living. The post office, shops, church and pub are all within easy reach. They may not use those services very much but at least they have some level of freedom as opposed to those in the new model of nursing home being developed in areas adjacent to cities.

While the operators may be simply leasing the nursing homes, there is no restriction on the nursing home tax relief. It is given for ten years and if at the end of that period the operator quits the business of providing nursing homes, that is the end of the matter. In the old days, with which the Minister will be familiar, following his experience in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, IDA Ireland could look for a return of the money granted or seek to recover grant-aided plant and machinery. As this is tax aid, I do not know if any review has been undertaken by the Departments of Finance and Health and Children of the strategic use of this tax break.

Last year, the then Minister, Mr. McCreevy, further amended the Finance Bill. Most health boards, as they were then, did not permit nursing homes to be more than one or two-storey buildings, except in certain circumstances. The Finance Act was changed last year to permit multistorey nursing homes development, provided fire certificates were awarded and they met fire service regulations. I presume they would be required to have lifts and that the change was to allow for a particular case. How does this fit in with the overall health and social care policy?

All the evidence in this country suggests that the vast majority of older people wish to live in their own homes. The State should be supporting people to stay at home. Less than 6% of the population will require nursing home care. This tax break has not been costed. The former Minister took the view that this would drive down prices but I do not believe it has. The Minister may say that prices would be higher without this tax break but that is in the realm of speculation.

I am particularly concerned about these isolated homes which are situated here, there and everywhere. The residents have no freedom other than the grounds around the house. From my reading of this tax concession, it is valuable for ten years following which time the owners of these nursing homes can up sticks and walk away. I am very concerned about this situation.

I acknowledge the former Minister, Mr. McCreevy, was of the view that some of the criticisms of the tax break came from existing proprietors of nursing homes as, in the Minister's view, it was a new source of competition. There may be an element of that.

Has there been any inquiry or joined-up thinking to match this policy of tax breaks for nursing home development compared with health and social care policy? I have seen no evidence of it. Has the Minister for Health and Children, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs or the Minister for Social and Family Affairs done any studies on the impact of this tax break and how it fits with our national policy on making provision for elderly people, including the small percentage of elderly people who will eventually go into nursing home care? Has the Minister any figures available on the extra number of nursing home developments which have been built as a consequence of this tax break? Are there any reports on how this fits in with health policy? What is the cost to the State of tax foregone for each of the years since this policy was established?

The policy was further developed last year when housing development was permitted in nursing home grounds with provision for it to be included in a tax break. There has been no report in respect of this development. I am not aware of the number of such developments undertaken since last year's Finance Bill nor of the number of houses provided. Dublin City Council's sheltered developments with gates and warden services are fabulous and offer the way forward in terms of spending public money. They allow elderly people to live on their own with support, albeit having downsized to live in smaller apartments, while retaining a large measure of independence. At least those living in nursing homes in cities, towns and villages have some capacity for independent activity, even if it is only to go out to buy a stamp, attend mass or visit the pub for the odd pint.

As I stated, between December 1997 and December 2003 the number of private nursing home beds increased from 6,932 to 13,178. I presume, therefore, that this increase in the number of beds in the private nursing home sector over such a short period, as compared to the past 30 or 40 years, can be ascribed to the fact that the independent sector was incentivised to build nursing homes through tax reliefs. The scheme was introduced for a purpose, namely, to augment the 12,300 public beds in the system. The total number of beds in the system now stands at approximately 25,500.

We need to try to address this issue which demographics suggest will become more important in future. In addition, the vast majority of elderly people are either able to stay at home with family support or live with a family member for considerable periods. Unfortunately, when full-time nursing care becomes necessary but cannot be provided at home through the community nursing system or other means, elderly persons may have to move to a nursing home. Public administration subvents the private nursing sector to help families when public beds are not available.

The developments I have outlined have taken place against a background of increased capital allocations for care of the elderly in the public system. One in four tax euro is spent on the health service, with all its priorities and issues. We should take a pragmatic view if the independent sector is able to provide more nursing home beds and thereby contribute to the wider community. Why should that not be the case? The tax relief for nursing homes forms part of the comprehensive review under way.

I have given the broad outlines of developments since the introduction of the tax relief. The Deputy cited recent examples of nursing homes which are not located in close proximity to villages and towns and stated this was not ideal. Unfortunately, many public beds are in the same position because health boards had to acquire buildings which were not ideal but may have been the only facilities available given their small capital budgets. I can name two or three homes of that type in my constituency in which people are being offered the best possible care. I do not imply a criticism because of their location. As one modernises and improves the nursing bed capital allocation, I hope the provision of nursing home beds will form part of the wider provision of rehabilitative care, etc. This is already the case. Health centres are also providing this type of wider care.

There is no exact fit, level or range of services we could say is uniform throughout the country in every instance. This is not the way in which the system developed. Improvements have taken place, however, and the tax relief scheme has helped us to provide more nursing home beds. This would not have been possible if we had relied solely on public provision. There is no doubt that is the case. It also took place against a background of continuing with capital provision, not at the expense of public provision but to augment it to try to meet growing demand.

These are general observations. With regard to specific amendments, I have outlined that all nursing homes are subject to the regulatory regime one would expect in terms of adequate provision, etc. The various regulations and the Nursing Home Act 1990 apply. In addition, the review provides us with an opportunity to produce an assessment on how to proceed and identify the way in which tax relief schemes might continue to contribute to the wider community through increased nursing home bed provision.

I asked the Minister a number of specific questions which I will repeat. How many nursing homes have been created each year as a consequence of the tax break structure? Will the Minister map their locations around the country so as to determine the extent to which they are located in remote areas?

The Minister has correctly stated many old institutions are located in remote parts of all constituencies. Should we not learn from mistakes made 100 years ago when institutions were built by developing criteria to ensure we do not repeat them? For example, we have the mistake of locating a facility outside Portlaoise with the result that few people have access to it and residents are unable to walk into town and so on.

On the expenditure side, someone in the Department rides hard on the expenditure of all other Departments. On the tax break side, however, because the issue is simply one of tax forgone, it appears no review is undertaken to ascertain whether such relief is given in a joined up way in line with other areas of Government policy.

When introducing this relief and subsequent extensions to it, the then Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, emphasised that it would drive down nursing home care prices. I have no evidence that this has been the case. Has the Department checked whether its statements that the expansion of the relief would drive down prices have materialised? Will the Minister comment? It was his predecessor's contention that this would be the case.

Has there been any correspondence or discussions between the Departments of Finance and Health and Children on the introduction and expansion of this relief? Like many politicians, Mr. McCreevy was upset by the considerable budget absorbed by the health system in the past eight years during which there was not always much to show for it. The former Minster contended that the health system was like a black hole and that he did not know where the money went. My question is similar but refers to the tax expenditure side. While I do not expect the Minister to answer it now, will he give the select committee an undertaking to provide the relevant figures by the end of our discussions? Surely they are available to the Department.

I will give the Deputy the figures. There were 6,932 nursing home beds at the end of 1997 when we introduced the tax relief scheme. There are now 13,178. Members are entitled to draw some conclusions from these figures. The number of private beds has practically doubled. If the Deputy is suggesting bed numbers would have doubled without a capital allowance scheme, she is wrong. One is also entitled to draw the conclusion that increased supply as opposed to reduced supply provides some prospect of price moderation.

Has the Department examined this issue? It made the claim regarding prices.

What is the counterclaim? Is it that if we did not have a tax relief scheme, we would have it cheaper?

For an Opposition spokesperson, it is a reasonable question to ask because the Minister's predecessor said we would have evidence of——

I have given a reasonable answer.

Did the Department not check this matter?

No. Are we supposed to live in a centrally planned economy under the new Labour regime? Very few will contest that the price of a nursing home bed is cheaper by having 13,000 nursing home beds as against 7,000. When I was the Minister for Health and Children, before the extra nursing home beds, private nursing homes claimed they could not take more patients unless subventions were increased. This was a huge demand to increase the subvention on the basis that there were 7,000 beds.

With due respect to the Minister, the subvention situation has not changed at all.

Exactly.

There are large numbers of people——

The reason——

——looking for subventions but not getting them.

I was Minister for Health and Children so I know a little more about it. Deputy Burton only knows a small bit about it.

One reason they can continue to survive at the same level of subvention is that there are now 13,000 beds and not 7,000. This is an example of where eight years ago I was told if the subvention was not increased, all nursing homes would have to close down. However, when more beds were provided they did not close down, even with the same levels of subvention. If bed supply in the system is increased, people can accommodate more people at a reasonable cost to the taxpayer rather than at a higher cost. This is what I was told beforehand. As with any system, one is entitled to seek a greater level of subvention than would otherwise be available.

While I accept I was only Minister for Health and Children for two and a half years, it is my view that the increased number of private nursing home beds has moderated the demands for higher subventions. It has also moderated what the subvention would be, if the extra 6,000 beds were not available, given the background against which we were operating. There are many people who would have been in public sector homes but are now in the private sector through the subvention scheme. Approximately 8,500 of the 13,000 beds receive direct Exchequer support in one form or another. If we did not have these extra 6,000 beds, where were these people to be put? Despite an increased capital allocation, the State could not increase provision by 6,000 beds in this period.

I have a more pragmatic approach than the Deputy to these matters. If it helps solve a problem, I run with it. I do not narrow my considerations because some beds are provided by a tax relief scheme. I will run with a scheme if it helps people, from all income groups, receive nursing home care. I know in my heart and soul the public service was not able to provide to the same extent at the same rate, even though we are trying to increase and modernise public bed provision. Capital allocation for the health executive to provide for the elderly is greater now than ever. It does not mean it will solve the problem given the level of demand.

The scheme made a positive contribution to the supply of nursing home beds. If these tax relief and incentive schemes were not in place, the private sector may not have got involved in this area. One can hold a different view on this matter but what works, works. We now have more nursing home beds than would otherwise be the case if the scheme was not in place.

This issue will be reviewed in the same way as the others. We will map out the contribution to see how such a scheme may contribute positively in the future. I emphasised in my budget speech and to the Irish Taxation Institute that when I review these schemes, I check to see what is the balance between the need for targeted investment, in addition to augmenting whatever public capital can be provided in areas such as health, education and so forth. How do we balance this with the wider community benefit that derives from this increased activity? That is the balance I am seeking to attain in this review. The assessment referred to by Deputy Burton must be considered in the context of the review being undertaken.

After the nursing home has availed of the tax relief, is it required to stay in operation as such?

No, under the scheme it does not have to do so after the ten years is up.

Does the Minister believe this is risky from a public policy point of view? Is this not risky when a substantial amount of public money is forgone through the scheme at a cost to the general taxpayer who, as a consequence, must pay more tax or not receive tax reductions? Is the Minister amenable to establishing criteria for the scheme?

I know the Hanly report was the Government's policy for a period. However, it was interesting in its detail on sustainability and elderly people who must stay in hospital for a long time as step down beds are not available. It seems we are building a house of sand. A nursing home building culture has been created with only a potential ten year life and nothing more, particularly if the developer sees other development potential for the land on which the nursing home is built.

The main purpose of a capital or depreciation of assets allowance scheme is to repay the capital invested so that the business can continue after the ten years. I do not buy into the idea that those involved in nursing home work will walk away when the scheme ends. The Deputy may have a view on an individual or issue of which she is aware personally. The majority of people are involved in this business because they are competent and committed to it. The tax allowance scheme was not introduced to simply provide a tax allowance. Its whole purpose was to give the incentive of a return on capital costs so that more nursing home places could be provided.

The Department of Health and Children and other health agencies never received any information from the Department of Finance, other than by way of budget announcements on these schemes. Running parallel to this issue is the mushrooming of private hospitals. The Fianna Fáil Party ran into flak at the local elections over the Hanly report. It suggested that hospitals with under 400 beds were not viable for overall or specific services. The former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, was really the Minister for reports as he commissioned over 30 of them. One arm of the Government has a plethora of reports while the Department of Finance throws out tax breaks. There is no joined-up thinking in using these mountains of reports in the Department of Health and Children and available tax breaks, with the result that the private health care sector is going in a different direction.

It is not correct to say people do not know about tax breaks. The matter was part of a budgetary process. A budgetary process takes place at the Cabinet table. I have no problem with the provision of the tax relief scheme for nursing homes on the basis of what it has produced, namely, double the number of nursing home places in the private sector in the past eight years. I do not see why people should object to, or criticise, that, particularly since 8,500 of the 12,000 beds are being used under the subvention scheme. If people looked for the beds in the public service, they would not get them because they are not there in sufficient numbers, despite the capital programme for public beds. That is the reality. One must deal with these matters pragmatically and practically.

In respect of this amendment, we do not want to be diverted to a discussion on the financing of health policy but I will go into it if that is what the Deputy wants. The Deputy talked about the provision in the independent sector. Why should we not consider having the independent sector contribute to dealing with the backlog? Why not, if it deals with the problem? Is there an issue there?

The new Labour Party had a policy where the private insurance industry would fund the whole health sector, including the public sector. I am sorry but that was not its policy; it was relegated to a discussion document within three days when it got so much criticism from everybody that it was totally unworkable.

No. It was described by The Irish Times as the best policy of any party.

In fact, it was confirmed by people as a real formula for closing small hospitals by leaving it to the private insurance industry to decide where one would get one's operation. I know there are by-elections on and an effort is being made to produce sound bites for "Oireachtas Report" but let us be clear. The situation in respect of this amendment is that the tax relief scheme introduced by my predecessor has produced an extra 6,500 nursing home beds, many of which are being provided for patients who are eligible for the subvention scheme. It has ensured nursing home care for 25,500 people between public and private bed provision. I have given my views on the amendment and I do not believe I can add much more.

In respect of the 12,339 public beds, does the Minister have the figures for the past five years? If not, perhaps he will circulate them to us. Has the number of public beds increased or decreased? The Minister said capital expenditure on them has increased but I believe that is historical in that many of the buildings in which those beds were housed were the old county homes and so on and they needed to be replaced.

Is the Deputy looking for information on public beds?

I take the Deputy's point which emphasises the other point, namely, the role the independent sector could play in providing the extra beds. That is precisely the point. We could not do all this through the public sector.

Does the Minister know the tax write-off in respect of the approximately 6,000 beds provided in the private sector so that we can get a figure on the cost of a bed per tax-write off? The sheltered housing scheme was introduced last year with a tax relief but it must be associated with a nursing home. There is a strong sheltered housing sector in England which is not tied to nursing homes and where separate units are provided in buildings. They are funded mainly by pension funds and so on and they are tremendously successful. A subsidy is paid for rent but people live independently within these units. I have seen them in operation and they are very successful. Would the Minister look at how beneficial that is compared to nursing home beds and so on in his review? Would it be worthwhile?

I look forward to contributions from all sides in regard to this review. There is an open invitation to everyone. We all want an outcome where we have tax relief schemes which are focused on those priorities we want addressed. I was simply making the point that our current state of economic and social development is such that a comprehensive review is timely. That is why I have opted for that timely and comprehensive review rather than looking at this matter in piecemeal way precisely for all the reasons all the Deputies mentioned.

On the question of the tax-write off, that figure will only be available at the end of this year because of the changes and the information we now seek on the tax forms which was not available previously. Those changes came in last year. Revenue is now in position to get more accurate data as a result of the changes it has introduced which was not the case in the past.

On the question of public bed provision in the past five years, obviously we will have to contact the Department of Health and Children to see if we can get that information for the Deputy. That is not a problem. The Deputy could see if he could get that information through the parliamentary question system or I will see if we can get it in the meantime.

It is really a question of finding pragmatic solutions to difficult problems as they arise. As far as I am concerned, we should go with whatever works and not decide, ideologically, it must be one way or the other. I am interested in whatever sorts out the problem which need not, and should not, be at the expense of the public health system because we will always need a vibrant public health system regardless of what contribution any tax relief schemes might make towards dealing with some of the problems.

I asked the Minister a number of specific questions about information. I appreciate he may not have the information to hand but could we have it tomorrow? The Minister mentioned a number of different figures in regard to time periods, numbers of additional beds and numbers of beds subject to public subvention. How many additional beds have been supplied through nursing homes or something similar which have availed of the tax breaks for nursing homes? How many of those are now being used as publicly subvented beds?

I am not being ideological about this matter. It was the Minister's predecessor, if he does not mind me saying so, who was very ideological about it. I have read a number of those reports and I have quite an open mind on this, but I am concerned. In my constituency, there are perhaps more nursing homes in remote areas than in the Minister's. I reiterate that I am concerned about new nursing homes, which have received tax breaks, appearing in very remote locations. The Minister correctly said that the county homes of 100 years ago were often not located in the best locations to support the independence of the residents. I am making the same point. If we are giving tax breaks in this area, surely we should at least put on our common sense hats and ensure these nursing homes are in good quality locations to give some independence to the residents.

I also query the value of the investor in, or the developer of, the nursing home only staying in business for a ten year period. If we are providing much money through tax breaks, it is a very short period of return. We are only asking questions to which we want answers.

It was the former Minister, Charlie McCreevy, who was the most ideological about this area. His line was that if there was a tax break, all the health service problems would be solved much better than by the public sector. He was entitled to that point of view. The Minister's wing of Fianna Fáil perhaps has a different point of view, which I accept. I am asking the Minister for information.

As I know the Deputy has a jaundiced view of my party, we will have to leave that rest. It is not a question of wings. The previous Minister, Charlie McCreevy, put more money into the public health system than any of his predecessors.

Most of it disappeared.

I was Minister for Health and Children.

It was no good.

I know what he did. My predecessor in that portfolio, Deputy Noonan, had to try to run a capital health programme, even though he did not know how much money would be allocated to him in the following year. When I was Minister for Health and Children, the then Minister for Finance gave me a three year commitment. Perhaps Deputy Noonan would have been able to do a better job than he did — I do not criticise the job he did — if he had been given such a commitment. Any fool will know it is impossible for a Minister for Health to operate effectively if he or she does not have a capital programme of more than one year. Charlie McCreevy was the first Minister for Finance to give a health Minister an idea of the money he or she would be given over a three year period. While we can have political disagreements, we should try to deal with the facts.

The tax relief scheme in question offers people an option they can take up. I supplied some figures earlier. The capital allowance for the construction and refurbishment of private nursing homes which was introduced in the Finance Act 1998 applies to capital expenditure incurred on or after 3 December 1997. It is fair to assume any increase in the number of beds in the private nursing homes sector after that date attracted a tax break. I provided the figures earlier for that reason. The number of beds in private nursing homes increased from 6,932 in December 1997 to 13,178 in December 2003, the latest date for which figures are available to the Department. The answer to the question I was asked can be found by dividing the figure by five. I was also asked how many private nursing home beds attracted subvention. I have given a figure in that regard. Approximately 8,500, or approximately two thirds, of the updated total of 13,178 private nursing home beds attracted subvention.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 13, before section 4, to insert the following new section:

"4.—An approved body pursuant to section 848A of the Principal Act shall make available to the public sufficient particulars of its accounts and such other information as may be required by the Revenue Commissioners.".

The purpose of this amendment is self-evident. I propose that information on accounts should be made available. It seems reasonable that bodies which avail of significant amounts of tax relief, which comprise an important sector of activity, should be in a position to publish their accounts and provide accounting information. I do not know why the previous Minister did not accept a similar amendment that I tabled last year.

I was involved in this area a long time ago. When my party left government in 1997, the heads of a charities Bill had been agreed by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The matter has been passed like a football from one Department to another since. I think the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Noel Ahern, is holding the ball at present because he is responsible for charities. The ball has been moved all over the pitch. The Minister of State has engaged in further consultation but we are no nearer to having an actual charities Act. I am mystified by the lack of progress. I appreciate that not everything can be done in eight years but it is puzzling that the Government has failed to enact a charities Act in that time. The legislation which has been agreed by all parties is straightforward. More importantly, all the charities in this country have been involved in a series of consultative exercises, as a result of which fairly universal agreement about what should happen has been reached.

Approximately 3,500 charities avail of tax reliefs and tax recovery. The scheme was established by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, to assist those who wished to commemorate the Famine by making donations to charities involved in relief work in Africa. The scheme was subsequently extended widely by the former Minister, Charlie McCreevy. In that context, it is reasonable to demand that charities should publish accounts. Many charities publish accounts because they are companies limited by guarantee but significant numbers do not do so. If such charities are availing of tax relief and tax recovery from the Exchequer, the least we should expect of them is that they be required to publish accounts. I imagine that such accounts would be of interest only to supporters of such charities in many instances. It is desirable, in the interests of public accountability, that they should publish accounts. That is the intention of this amendment. I hope the Minister is disposed to support it.

Amendment No. 14 proposes the publication of accounts and other information on approved bodies. The Revenue Commissioners may require such information during their administration of section 848A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. That section is concerned with the scheme of income and corporation tax relief for donations to such approved bodies, including eligible charities, first and second level schools, third level institutions, including universities, as well as other named bodies.

The Revenue Commissioners impose a strict set of conditions on bodies which have been newly granted tax exemption as charities. Such bodies have to keep satisfactory financial records which must be available for inspection by the Revenue Commissioners. They are required to put in place proper controls when funds are raised by public subscription and submit their first year's financial accounts to the Revenue Commissioners within 18 months of the granting of an exemption. Failure to satisfy the conditions results in the withdrawal of the exemption.

As more than three quarters of charities and most approved bodies other than schools are incorporated, they are obliged under company law to lodge annual accounts with the Companies Office. Approved bodies receive, directly or indirectly, a substantial tax benefit paid for by the Exchequer under section 848A of the 1997 Act. In that context, I agree with Deputy Burton that there is a general need for openness and transparency in the operation of approved bodies and the application of their funds. I have no difficulty with that objective, in principle.

This issue should be considered as part of a greater review of the regulation of charities. In that context, the committee is aware that the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs recently concluded a process of public consultation on the establishment of a modern statutory framework for charities. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, will bring a series of legislative proposals for a regulatory regime for charities to the Cabinet soon. I fully expect the proposals to set out a framework of accountability and transparency for the companies' activities and in the general areas of compliance and governance. The forthcoming new regulatory regime is the more appropriate context for dealing with the issues raised by Deputy Burton, although it is too early to state definitively how it will be constituted.

I wish to inform the committee that I propose to introduce an amendment during this Committee Stage debate, under the nations relief, to reduce the reference in the section dealing with the waiting period for eligible charities from "three" to "two". Any further changes to the charities tax code would be premature, given the work being done by the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, and his Department. He will bring his proposals to the Cabinet soon.

I am disappointed by the Minister's response. Deputy Burton's amendment makes a modest request for the publication of the accounts of bodies which benefit from State assistance in the form of tax relief. I do not believe it will second-guess the legislation of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, if it ever sees the light of day. It is the fourth Department that has been given responsibility for drawing up a charities Bill in recent years. There have been a number of public consultation processes, dating back as far as 1980. The Costello recommendations were made in this regard. The Minister might even help the process by accepting this moderate amendment to the Bill. It would allow for some public accountability. Those who constantly asked for the charities Bill to be presented to the House and enacted would find it helpful.

The Minister pointed out in his response that while most charities were incorporated, as many as 25% of them are not. This means that 25% of several thousand registered charities are not accountable, to any degree, to the existing system. This is sufficient reason to accept this amendment.

I ask the Minister to rethink his position. I spent much of my working life working for charities, including NGOs and, in particular, development aid charities. Transparency in charity accounting would benefit absolutely the well-run, well-administered charities because the public would have full details on the source of the charities' money and how it was spent. It is important that we support charities in this country and that we have a strong framework that gives the public confidence in the system through which donations are allocated.

The absence of a charity law in Ireland is outrageous. The Government has had eight years to address this matter. It has passed responsibility between four different Departments, yet it is no closer to producing a charities Bill. Why is this the case? The Minister stated 25% of charities are not registered. We do not know if they publish accounts, I presume many of them do not. Has the Minister the up-to-date figure concerning the number of charities registered with the Revenue Commissioners for the purpose of availing of the various reliefs and exemptions? It would be interesting if he could give it to us.

Using the Finance Bill to require charities to publish data on their income and accounts would be enormously beneficial to the many charities in Ireland, which do an extraordinary amount of work in Ireland and the developing world. Almost all of those charities have continuously expressed a desire to have charities legislation published. An organisation called the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group regularly sends information to Deputies on all sides of the House seeking a better deal for charities from Government in respect of VAT and other contributions they may pay. It is very difficult to make decisions on such matters when so many bodies in the charity sector do not have to publish or make publicly available information on what they do, their assets and where and how they spend their money. I am disappointed the Minister is not able to accede to the amendment.

As I stated, the Government is further along the road. It is not correct to say it is no further along the road than it was eight years ago. The public consultation process has been completed. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht affairs will be introducing a series of legislative proposals to Cabinet as a result of that process. We know that when we have a public consultation process thereafter, it will be a question of making decisions. Drafts and ideas have been circulated in the public domain. One must consider what would be regarded as a good regulatory regime given that there are some very small charities and some very developed charities. Different organisational capacities are involved.

While three quarters of charities have been incorporated and have to file their accounts with the Companies Registration Office, it would be wrong to suggest that those granted a tax exemption as charities are not operating under the notice of the Revenue Commissioners. The condition of having such an exemption is that they keep satisfactory financial records which must be available for inspection by the Revenue Commissioners.

We are talking about public accountability such that the public can have access to the relevant information and judge accordingly.

That is the Deputy's point of view. I am making the point that the modern statutory framework for the general charities legislation, of which this could form a part, is far more progressed than some Deputies may be suggesting although it has been a long time in the making. The charities sector does not comprise a simple area from a legal perspective.

While some people might say there is insufficient regulation or public awareness regarding accounts, the Revenue Commissioners are aware of the position on accounts. Three quarters of the charities, through their being incorporated, make their accounts publicly available because they are available as annual accounts in the Companies Registration Office. That is the factual position.

On the question of what additional steps we are prepared to take, the policy response is advanced. Another Minister who has front-line responsibility in this area will be coming to Cabinet as a result of the public consultation process, which has led to the making of further views on the part of those who are anxious to have a modern statutory regulatory regime put in place. It is appropriate to make changes in the broad context of that reform process rather than through the Finance Bill.

I am not at variance with the Deputies' ideas on this matter. It is a question of progress being made in its proper context, that is, in light of the work the Minister has been doing on this issue. Furthermore, I will be tabling an amendment to assist, in so far as I can, charities who wish to obtain donations relief as quickly as possible, consistent with the public interest and public confidence in their activity.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 13, before section 4, to insert the following new section:

"4.—Where a person avails of tax relief relating to income including or consisting of rental income pursuant to the Principal Act, he or she shall furnish to the Commissioners sufficient information to demonstrate that he or she has complied with any requirement of the law regarding registration as a landlord.".

Increasing numbers of people are renting accommodation and there is an increasing number investing in the rented accommodation sector. There are very important tax reliefs, particularly property-based tax breaks, for those investing in rental accommodation. I am trying to tie in two different areas of public policy. Persons who are claiming tax breaks in respect of rental accommodation should also have to demonstrate that the landlord is in compliance with the various registration requirements, as I believe is the case regarding the film industry. This was argued very cogently in respect of the film industry by the Minister's officials about a year ago. I understand that the number of landlords who have registered with the recently established Private Residential Tenancies Board is disappointingly low. It is in its third month. It replaced the previous arrangement whereby landlords registered with councils when the registration rate was appallingly low.

Many residents who rent fail to take advantage of the tax breaks available because there is incomplete registration by landlords of their income for tax purposes. Large-scale landlords and property companies are quite good at complying. However, there are many others who do not comply and are probably not even tax compliant and do not meet the various requirements for a landlord to register.

This amendment proposes to insert a new section 4 into the Bill and to make it a general condition of claiming tax relief on rental income that the person involved provide evidence to the Revenue Commissioners that he or she has registered as a landlord where this is required by law. Part 7 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 contains requirements for landlords to register tenancies. These requirements relate to tenancies of dwellings, that is, residential tenancies to which I assume the amendment relates.

Apart from tax relief being available for normal letting expenses it will also be available for expenditure on the construction, refurbishment, conversion or purchase of a house for rented residential purposes in areas designated under one of the tax incentive schemes, such as the urban or rural renewal schemes. In addition, relief may also be available for interest arising on borrowings used for the purchase, improvement or repair of rented residential accommodation.

I will try to consider this matter between now and Report Stage. The authorities are raising various issues on this in terms of student accommodation, written leases, long occupation to equity tenancies and rent-a-room arrangements. It may not be possible to bring forward something that will deal with these intricacies comprehensively between now and Report Stage. It may be best to defer it until the next budget. I will look at the issue and give a more considered response on Report Stage.

I thank the Minister for that response. The Minister's constituency of Laois-Offaly may not have seen an explosion of apartment building equivalent to that in my constituency of Blanchardstown and Castleknock. There are several phenomena there which give rise to concern. For example, often, on completion of large blocks of apartments, the developer or parties associated therewith, instead of selling an apartment, let it for a certain time, or let blocks or a series of apartments. That churns the tenants who come and go very rapidly over a short period.

In the same block there might be people buying as owner-occupiers. The resulting discrepancies between these landlords and those who buy to occupy are very hard to sustain. If the Government wants higher density housing in the form of high rise apartment blocks in the greater Dublin area, it should devise a joined-up policy to cover landlords and their tax compliance, and the developers who hold apartments for perhaps one or two years. I do not know how long they hold the apartments because this is a relatively new phenomenon.

In some parts of my constituency where apartment blocks have been built, owner-occupiers have sold up because they cannot bear to live in a block many of whose apartments are occupied by transient tenants to whom the developer is landlord. I would be happy if the Minister would agree to study this problem because it has serious ramifications for social sustainability.

Many of these landlords churn tenants over short periods of less than one year. Some of the tenants receive health board allowances, for example, retired people who are high quality tenants. It might be that as a result of a marital breakdown one person who perhaps has disability receives a health board rent allowance. In Dublin 15 it is very hard for that person to stay in an apartment for more than nine or 11 months.

I do not know whether this is connected to any element of the tax code but it is a very striking phenomenon. It may not yet be a significant factor in other areas but it is very noticeable in Dublin 15. The problem is that it makes it difficult to sustain the type of high density development of which the Government is so fond. People are moving to live 70 miles away where they feel there is a more settled population.

In many countries in Europe there is a long history of renting. It is very usual for many people to rent. The tenants can enjoy long tenancies although rental conditions are quite stringent — they must keep the place well but in turn can have some security of tenure. This helps to build a sustainable community rather than this practise of landlords churning tenants without meeting any registration requirements.

This is a complicated issue because it is not always clear that there is a full overlap between the entitlement to tax relief and the requirement to register. For example, as registration is not required for a holiday letting it would be inappropriate to make this a condition for tax relief. I understand the Deputy's general point but I must discuss this in detail with my officials to establish its full intricacy. I can return to it on Report Stage with a considered position if I am satisfied that I am covering the angles properly. Otherwise, I will consider it for the future. While I understand the point I need to see how to deal with it to achieve the right result without causing fall-out in areas we did not think through.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 13, before section 6, to insert the following new section:

"6.—As respects the year of assessment 2005 and subsequent years of assessment section 473 of the Principal Act is amended by substituting—

(a) ‘€5,080’ for ‘€2,540’,

(b) ‘€10,160’ for ‘€5,080’, and

(c) ‘€2,540’ for ‘€1,270’,

wherever same shall occur.".

The purpose of this amendment is to bring in equity of treatment between mortgage relief and tax relief for rent payments. I welcome the Minister's move to increase the tax relief on rent but realistically he is increasing it only to a small degree, from €1,270 to €1,500. It will fall far short of the equivalent relief on mortgage interest.

The tax regime should be neutral in regard to people's choices. There is a great attachment to home ownership, which is the people's choice, and it yields much stability. Given that for many years people are increasingly being forced into the rented market, our failure to provide equitable and realistic relief in this area is no longer acceptable. The health service rental acceptable for an eastern health service subvention is €14,500, while tax relief on €1,500 at 20% for a single parent amounts to €300. This is a tiny contribution in terms of the rentals people face.

I am raising an issue of principle as to whether we should move towards tax equity between the rental sector as far as outgoings on homes and mortgage interest relief is concerned. In the future we should be thinking in terms of some kind of housing credit which would examine people's needs across the board, rather than this strange mixture of health service subventions if one is unemployed dropping to €1,500, which amounts to approximately €300 a year or €6 a week. If one is unemployed, one moves from a health service subvention of 90% of one's rent down to €6 a week towards the rent under tax relief. As this is distorting the figures, there must new thinking in regard to housing support.

Perhaps the Minister will play a lead role in this regard. While the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government are tricking around at the edges, they are not addressing some of the larger issues if there is to be an equitable system which is income-related so that people can get high subventions related to their income or whatever. We need to move from the present system of low level relief on renting.

I am interested in the Deputy's amendment relating to equity between mortgage interest relief and tax relief on rents. I cannot change the parameters of the budget by doubling the tax relief. However, the Deputy raised a wider policy issue which should be examined. While I cannot accept the amendment, I will review the matter in the context of future annual budgets. All I can say to the Deputy is that I hear the background music even if I cannot play the tune today.

I welcome the Minister's response. However, there are wider issues involved. I examined the treatment across the board of people in different housing situations, whether shared ownership schemes or rented property. The current system, including the subventions from the State, is very unfair. The Minister is in a better position to play a leading role in the matter if he initiates a review in the area. As more and more people are going into the rented sector, we need to move on the matter. The CSO is reporting a massive increase in renting of up to 170,000, half of whom are receiving tax relief. Another half are not on any books. This is a growing sector for whom we must cater. The new poor are people on low incomes, in rented accommodation, who are being squeezed. I welcome the Minister's response on the issue.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 17 not moved.
Section 6 agreed to.
Section 7 agreed to.
SECTION 8.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 14, lines 35 to 38, to delete all words from and including "boat" in line 35 down to and including "issued" in line 38 and substitute the following:

"vessel which holds a current valid—

(i) passenger ship safety certificate,

(ii) passenger boat licence, or

(iii) high-speed craft safety certificate,

issued".

This is a technical amendment relating to a proposal to extend the exemption from a benefit-in-kind charge where an employer provides a ferry travel pass to an employee. The amendment extends the definition of "approved transport provider" to cover a person operating a vessel which holds a current valid high-speed craft safety certificate.

While I do not object to the amendment, it begs the question of why is the Minister confining tax relief in this area to employers. Many people who make annual commitments to public transport should get recognition for it, even if it is not provided by their employer. I am aware this is a way of trying to restrict the scheme while at the same time promoting it. What level of take-up is there for the scheme? Is it effective in promoting an uptake in public transport? Would the Revenue Commissioners advise the Minister that it is being effective? I expect it is pretty ineffective and it may need to be extended.

Deputy Boyle's amendment No. 21 is similar to amendment No. 18. To qualify for exemption, an employer must currently incur the expenses of a bus, rail or Luas pass. Revenue accepts that the exemption will apply subject to conditions where an employee will negotiate his or her remuneration package to reduce the salary for a travel pass, that is, a salary foregone arrangement, where the employer can be regarded as having borne the cost of the travel pass. Currently, there is an exemption where an employer incurs the expenses of the bus, rail or Luas pass.

My amendment seeks to extend the scheme to include taking a ferry from Dún Laoghaire to the IFSC. If employers want their employees to travel by ferry rather than by bus or Luas, why should they be discriminated against? In other cities people travel to work by ferry. Someone had the idea that they wanted a level playing pitch, which is why I tabled the amendment.

Perhaps we should not refer to level playing pitches when referring to water. The first part of what the Minister said is true. There is a need to extend the principle to all modes of public transport. However, there is a second area which I tried to address in my amendment. It relates to people engaged in seasonal work who also have transport needs that can be catered for in the Finance Bill. These people work monthly, three monthly or six monthly contracts. Under the current system, tax exemptions apply only to annual tickets purchased on behalf of employers. I would like to see this principle adapted to take into consideration the travel needs of seasonal workers.

Is the Deputy proposing that relief should be extended to personal income tax relief where an individual purchases a pass?

I am referring to those who work on six months contracts, or even shorter contracts of one month. Costly travel tickets might be a barrier to people engaging in or continuing in employment and tax relief might be of assistance to these people. The inclusion of seasonal tickets would be an adaptation of the principle that applies to relief on the aggregated cost of annual tickets.

Would a person who comes here for six months get the relief in any event if the employer agreed to buy a pass for him? He would not need it for 12 months. Perhaps we could go into private session because there are people who know more about this than I do. It will allow the officials to explain the technicalities.

The select committee went into private session at 4.41 p.m. and resumed in public session at 4.44 p.m.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 14, between lines 40 and 41, to insert the following:

"(g) Subsection (1) shall not apply to expenses incurred by the body corporate in or in connection with a medical examination for a director or employee where the director is not a proporietary director and/or the employee is not a relative, as defined by section 433(3)(a) of a proprietary director of the body corporate;”.

This refers to the application of benefits in kind. It seems strange to apply the benefit in kind provisions to a medical examination. The provision of medical examinations by employers to employees does not seem the sort of thing that should be discouraged by applying tax. It would be in the public interest to promote it. In this amendment I seek to exempt medical examinations from the benefit in kind provisions. It is more a public policy argument than a tax argument that we ought to promote this as good practice and not tax it.

The amendment would require that all medical examinations undertaken by employees and directors other than proprietary directors or connected persons and paid for by that company would not be subject to provisions for benefit in kind introduced in the Finance Bill 2004. The cost of providing medical check-ups that employees are required to undergo by their employer is not regarded as a taxable benefit and is not liable to PAYE or PRSI. Routine medical check-ups paid for but not required by the employer are treated as giving rise to a taxable benefit.

Regarding the application of PAYE and PRSI to benefits with effect from 1 January last, this initiative is designed to ensure that on grounds of equity, employee remuneration, in whatever form provided, is treated similarly for tax, PRSI and health levy purposes. The problem here is that the amendment would in effect mean that employees who benefit from medical check-ups that are paid for by their employer which are not required as part of their employment would be treated more favourably than employees who pay for their own medical check-ups. If it is a requirement to undergo a check-up, it is not subject to the provisions regarding benefit in kind. However, if a check-up that an employee is not required to undergo is excluded from those provisions, it could amount to discrimination between the employees of companies that provide such check-ups and the employees of companies that do not.

It would create discrimination. However, one person's discrimination is another person's incentivisation of good employer practice. It can cut both ways. My point is that it would be good to encourage employers to provide medical check-ups. It would be good for public health because it would identify potential ailments earlier. It would have many positive benefits about which we do not need to go into detail. Every incentive can be viewed as discriminatory. Otherwise it would not be an incentive. This would incentivise the provision of public health examinations by employers.

I understand the point. The problem is that if we blur the distinction between check-ups that are required for one's employment and those that are not, where does one draw the line? I will examine the matter again. I see what the Deputy is getting at.

It seems strange that the Minister included this with all the other items covered by the benefit in kind provision. A free ticket to fly somewhere for one's personal enjoyment is different from a medical examination.

I shall return to it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 15, before section 9, to insert the following new section:

9.—The Principal Act is amended by inserting the following after section 118:

‘118A.—(1) In this section—

"asset" includes equipment or a structure, but not any mode of transport or a dwelling or grounds appurtenant to a dwelling;

"service" does not include a dwelling or grounds appurtenant to a dwelling.

(2) This section applies where there is a credible and serious threat to a director's or an employee's personal physical security, which arises wholly or mainly because of the director's or employee's office or employment.

(3) This section applies to expense incurred by the body corporate, or incurred by a director or employee and reimbursed to the director or employee by the body corporate—

(a) in—

(i) the provision or use of, or

(ii) expenses connected with,

an asset or service for the improvement of personal security which is provided for or used by the director or employee to meet the threat to his or her personal physical security, and

(b) with the sole object of meeting that threat.

(4) Subject to subsections (6) and (7), where this section applies, section 118(1) shall not apply to an expense to which this section applies.

(5) Where the body corporate intends the asset to be used solely to improve personal physical security, any use of the asset incidental to that purpose shall be ignored.

(6) Where the body corporate intends the asset to be used only partly to improve personal physical security, subsection (4) shall apply only to that part of the expense incurred in relation to the asset which is attributable to the intended use for that purpose.

(7) Subsection (4) shall only apply to an expense incurred in relation to a service referred to in subsection (3) where the benefit resulting to the director or employee consists wholly or mainly of an improvement of his or her personal physical security.

(8) In determining whether or not this section applies in relation to an asset or service, the fact that—

(a) the asset becomes fixed to land (whether the land constitutes a dwelling or otherwise), or

(b) the director or employee is, or becomes, entitled—

(i) to the property in the asset, or

(ii) if the asset is a fixture, to any estate or interest in the land concerned,

or

(c) the asset or the service improves the personal physical security of a member of the director’s or employee’s family or household, as well as that of the director or employee,

does not exclude the expense incurred by the body corporate from coming within subsection (4).'.".

This amendment seeks to insert a new section 118A into the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to provide, subject to conditions, for an exemption from a benefit in kind charge in circumstances where an employer incurs expense in providing a security asset or service for use by a director or employee. In order to qualify for the exemption, there must be a credible and serious threat to the personal physical safety of the director or employee which arises wholly or mainly from his or her employment. Incidental use of an asset for purposes other than security will not impact on the exemption. However, where the asset provided is intended to be used for both personal security and other purposes, the exemption will apply only to the portion of the expense relating to the security function. In the case of the provision of a security service, the exemption will apply only where the benefit resulting to the director or employee consists wholly or mainly of an improvement in the director's or employee's personal physical security. Any incidental benefit derived by a member of the director's or employee's family or household from the provision of a security asset or service will not give rise to a charge to benefit in kind.

In principle, I have no objection to this proposal. However, it seems a strange provision to introduce. I presume this affects people involved in the security industry, prison officers or gardaí whose work exposes them to some risk. Subsection (2) states: "This section applies where there is a credible and serious threat to a director's or an employee's personal physical security, which arises wholly or mainly because of the director's or employee's office or employment." Will this be certified by the employer or will the Revenue provide some kind of evaluation of the risk? The private security industry is now very large and there may be concerns that such a system might be open to abuse. From where did the demand for this provision come? How does the Minister intend to restrict it to serious threats?

Was this amendment proposed as a consequence of any submissions or representations made to the Minister or the Department? I ask the Minister to explain the origin of the provision, which seems unusual. I have difficulty in envisaging the circumstances in which this would arise and I ask the Minister to expand on it. Subsection (5) states: "Where the body corporate intends the asset to be used solely to improve personal physical security, any use of the asset incidental to that purpose shall be ignored." Somebody living next to a lake who is subject to some threat to his or her personal security, which falls within the remit of this provision, might purchase a boat for security purposes to patrol the lakeside home and end up using it for pleasure purposes. I ask the Minister to explain at greater length the thinking behind this amendment. Did it arise as a consequence of discussions in the House or as a consequence of submissions? I have not seen reference to this matter before.

I also wish to raise a separate point on the provisions regarding foster care, which I will make in the discussion on the section.

I did not receive any specific representations. This is an issue that arises and the Revenue wishes to have tightly drawn conditions for the exemption. The exemption is only intended for those whose work exposes them to a very real threat to their physical safety from terrorists, criminals or others who might resort to violence. It follows that a deduction cannot be granted for security measures against the kind of general criminal threat which all citizens face to a greater or lesser degree, nor can it be granted for expenditure incurred to protect against the threat to property, burglary or larceny, nor does it apply to security measures taken against threats not connected with a person's work. It applies to a specific number of areas where there is a very real threat to the physical safety of some people in certain high-risk occupations. People would have to check with Revenue to determine if they come within the group contemplated by the provision.

On Deputy Burton's question, without specifying the trades of these people or the nature of their employments, what is to stop a very highly remunerated company director from claiming a threat to his or her personal security through kidnapping or a threat to property that would require a surveillance facility to be erected in one or several residences? Who will determine whose personal security is under threat and in what circumstances?

People in the Forensic Science Laboratory would be examples.

I want to know to whom this provision will specifically apply.

I have given an example.

I can understand that some people would be in such a position. I would fear that people who were not in these types of professions might still qualify because of the wording of the amendment.

I am advised by the Revenue that conditions for exemption are tightly drawn. Obviously prior agreement is required from Revenue based on a very real threat to physical safety from terrorists,——

Is this done through regulation?

——criminals or others who might resort to violence.

While I have no objection to this provision in the sorts of cases the Minister has described, I would have thought some certification would be needed from, for example, the Garda, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or some other expert in the field of security as opposed to a tax expert. Security walls could be built all around people's houses on this pretext. The certification should be by a party, like the Garda, which is an authority on what constitutes a risk rather than having the Revenue Commissioners devise a particular code.

Subsection (2) states: "This section applies where there is a credible and serious threat to a director's or an employee's personal physical security, which arises wholly or mainly because of the director's or employee's office or employment." So it is based on the nature of one's work and a serious threat needs to exist. I have explained that references to a general threat or a threat to property would not be included in the scope of this provision.

Certification by the Garda Commissioner would seem more appropriate.

As I said, what is contemplated by this provision is very tightly drawn and obviously liaison would take place with people knowledgeable about the nature of such a threat.

I have no problem if the purpose of this provision is to protect people who work with the Criminal Assets Bureau or similar bodies. Appalling attacks on public servants have been carried out by criminal gangs in the past. This has happened not only to a very distinguished former head of the Forensic Science Laboratory, but also to staff of the Department of Social and Family Affairs arising from the activities of criminal gangs. Recently we heard about the surveillance of Deputies by another political party, when going to place a bet in the vicinity of Leinster House. The amendment would result in permitting the employer, which might be the State, to increase the level of security around an employee's person, family or property, without a risk of the employee incurring a benefit in kind.

It regularises the situation.

While I do not have a problem based on what the Minister has said, I hope there is provision to prevent tax avoidance. I would not be in favour of the State providing unnecessary safety features for wealthy individuals who are not engaged in State business, although I do not want to see anything happen to them. However, I would make a sharp distinction between them and the people who work, often at great danger to themselves, in the Garda Síochána, the Revenue Commissioners, the relevant section of the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the forensic science laboratory. I support the Minister on this amendment provided he keeps it under review and that there is no possibility of leakage into a wider sort of benefit than indicated in his presentation.

In order not to mislead, the section applies "where there is a credible or serious threat to a director's or an employee's personal physical security, which arises wholly or mainly because of the director's or employee's office or employment". This involves people in the public sector but could also, perhaps, involve people in the private sector. I do not say it does or does not, but eligibility is a matter that would be determined by the Revenue Commissioners based on the additional note I just explained which is tightly drawn and not a general free fire alarm scheme. It is quite specific.

There is a hyphen out of place in the amendment. It should be removed now so we do not have to come back with an amendment on Report Stage. It is in line 2 of subsection (2) — "direct-or's".

Deputy Bruton is very sharp. We will correct it.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 21 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."

I welcome the extension of the arrangements brought forward by the Minister with regard to foster parents. It is a good move and will, I hope, help to increase the number of people willing to foster children on a long-term basis.

Will the Minister clarify the situation with regard to a relative caring for a child where, for example, the parent of the child has serious problems? For example, I recently brought a case to the attention of the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, but without success. A grandparent has been looking after a young child whose mother has serious drug problems and while not available to look after the child on a constant basis maintains contact. The position of the Department of Social and Family Affairs seems to be that the birth parent must completely divorce herself from and renounce the child in order for the grandparent to be recognised for the fostering allowance.

I understand the Department wants to be careful that the situation is carefully monitored. However, I have come across cases where there is often great difficulty, particularly where the troubled birth parent has addiction problems. The grandmother is often left looking after the grandchild or grandchildren on a social welfare income. The Chairman is probably familiar with this scenario. There is significant difficulty between the definition of an orphan or a foster child. It is traumatic for a family if a birth parent has to renounce the child. The parent may go to England, have addiction problems or move back and forth into the child's life. Most of the families want the birth parent to have as much of a role as possible in the life of the child, but that may not happen.

This section is welcome and is a good move, but will the Minister undertake, perhaps with his colleague in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, to examine this definitional difficulty? Will they consider whether grandparents, in particular those who care for children in very difficult situations, could get whatever advantage is available with regard to a fostering allowance?

What payment does the Deputy think should be exempt because of that situation?

The granting of a payment should be considered in the first place.

Is the Deputy seeking an allowance?

No, I am talking about the fostering or orphan's allowance. Currently if the parent returns to live in the vicinity and the child sees the parent once a week or once a fortnight, the status of the person caring for the child changes and the Department takes the view that the parent is back in a care situation. This may vary from one HSE area to another, but it is a tricky and difficult situation.

It is a social welfare issue.

It is a matter for the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive. I do not know what is the position and will not until some of our people get on to their colleagues in the relevant Departments and find out the details.

Will the Minister agree to take up the issue?

I will look into it. This section provides for an exemption from income for foster care payments made by the Health Service Executive to foster parents and relatives in respect of children in their care. I will not go through the full note, but I will examine what the outcome would be with regard to the point raised by Deputy Burton and whether this makes a difference to that situation. I do not know off the top of my head.

If foster care payments are made to the relative concerned and the child is under the care of the grandparent, those payments are exempt. I do not see how an intermittent contact with the parent should make a difference.

The issue of concern to Deputy Burton is the granting of the allowance by the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

That is correct. I support the introduction of this exemption and think it is good. However, I point out that there are related difficulties and draw them to the attention of the Minister's officials. I know there are problems with drawing up guidelines in this area. However, unfortunately there are cases where although there is a good caring situation, if the parent returns, the allowance is withdrawn from the carer.

In this situation a "carer" means an individual who is or was a foster parent or relative who takes care of an individual on behalf of the Health Service Executive. A person must be taking care of a child on behalf of the executive. The exemption is in the foster care context and has nothing to do with the question of the possibility of a child being abandoned because of an addiction and the taking on of a caring role by the grandparent. If the grandparent is not taking on the role on behalf of the Health Service Executive, he or she does not come within the foster care payment regime.

The section applies to payments made to a carer by the Health Service Executive in accordance with the various child care regulations. It must be a situation where the Health Service Executive has interposed itself and agrees to an arrangement whereby the relative is in loco parentis on behalf of the executive and on the basis that the child has come within the child care regulations as being liable to abandonment or whatever. It is not a question of finding flexibility within the social welfare code for the extra expense of a grandmother taking on a child who had not come to the attention of the Health Service Executive beforehand.

Many cases of the kind to which I refer come to the executive's attention. The situation is that there are complex family issues around this area, particularly around the foster situation as mentioned by the Minister. The Chairman and I would also be concerned with regard to the orphan's allowance.

It is a social welfare issue that we are concerned about.

Children must be in the care of the State for these exemptions to apply. We recognise the valuable role of foster parents dealing with children who would otherwise be institutionalised and not in the care of their families or who, under the child care Acts, have had to be taken away from their families and are promoting the idea of foster care as an option by exempting from the income tax Acts income which people derive from being foster parents. That is the context in which this provision operates. If a child is in the care of the Health Service Executive or such arrangements are made on behalf of the Health Service Executive then foster care payments are exempt. That there would be intermittent contact with the parents is irrelevant as the primary criterion is whether the individual is being cared for on behalf of the Health Service Executive acting for the State. That is the issue that arises.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 16, before section 10, to insert the following new section:

"10.—As respects the year of assessment 2005 and subsequent years of assessment the Principal Act is amended by the insertion of a new section 473B:

‘473B.—(1) In this section—

"approved child minding services" means an institution which is registered by the Department of Social and Family Affairs on such terms and conditions as the Minister for Social and Family Affairs determined by regulation;

"approved child minding" means a full or part-time child minding service provided by an approved child minding service provider;

"qualifying expenses" means the amount of fees or charges chargeable in respect of approved child minding.

(2) Subject to this section where an individual for a year of assessment proves that he/she on his or her own behalf or on behalf of his or her dependant made a payment to an approved child minding service provider in respect of approved child minding for a child who is the child of the person making the payment or in respect of whom the parent making such a payment is in loco parentis or is an adoptive parent or the child is a child of a dependant of the person making such payment. The income of such person to be charged income tax for the year of assessment shall be reduced by the amount which is the lesser of—

(a) an amount equal to the payments so made,

(b) €7,000, or

(c) the amount which reduces the chargeable income of such person to nil.’.”.

This amendment opens up the debate in terms of our approach to child care provision and seeks tax relief in respect of child care. The background to this issue needs no explanation. The cost of child care has soared in recent times. The cost of child care in my constituency is approximately €1,500 per month.

The Minister may point to the significant increases in child benefit but at €141.60 per month it amounts to only €1,700 per year, less than one-tenth of the cost per month of child care and does not address the issue. I am sure the Minister will also point to what his predecessor did in respect of individualisation whereby people who work and avail of child care get the benefit of individualisation. However, that does not deal with the issue. Individualisation is not only available to people who have children of a particular age, it is broader than that. I question some of the thinking behind individualisation. We appear to be putting people into the position of having to pay €1,500 per month for child care if they choose to work. In the case of a spouse who chooses to remain in the home, the Minister has frozen the level of home carer's allowance in the tax code while PAYE allowances and so on have increased substantially. The tax and welfare code does not take proper account of the pressures on young working families in terms of child care costs.

I am aware the State has moved towards providing child care with particular focus on disadvantage. I can understand why that is being done. However, that system leaves a large number of people without access to the support code. We could try to address this in the tax code or by moving towards the provision of a capitation payment towards child care costs. Given the type of cost levels we now face, this will be unsustainable. Other continental European countries have experienced a drastic drop in their birth rates and are leaning over backwards to promote the idea that having children yields positive benefits. Those who have travelled in France will have seen the advertisements on billboards encouraging people to take a more holistic view to rearing children. Ireland has slipped into the wrong approach on this issue by not providing support for child care and by freezing the approach to those opting for home care. We appear to be taking the view that families are cogs in the economic wheel rather than that they are an important long-term investment for the benefit of the country as a whole.

I know the current Minister is interested in looking afresh at this issue. It could be addressed not alone by tax relief but by a mixture of tax relief and capitation payments because capitation provides one with more of a handle over standards and so on. We need to have a proper debate on the matter rather than simply saying child benefit is neutral across every family unit. We should not be suggesting that is the only debate in town and that we will not budge from it. Family circumstances differ and we must be able to offer more flexibility in this area. I believe part of the long-term mix needed is the provision of tax relief and capitation payments for child care. Rather than focusing on one State run child care system we need to let more than a thousand blossoms bloom. We should allow to remain in place the vast range of child care options but we must also try to reduce the cost of child care for those families currently under enormous financial pressure.

We have only begun in recent times to deal with the issue of child care. The only effort made to address the issue prior to this Government taking office was the introduction of a pilot scheme. We are coming at it from a standing start and are continuing in our efforts to deal with the issue.

The basic issue that arises is by what mechanism we can provide support to parents with children. We have come down, as a matter of policy in terms of how the Government has examined the issues of supply and demand, in favour of addressing the issue through child benefit payments. One of the main benefits of that approach is that whereas tax relief would be of little or no benefit with low incomes the provision of support through the child benefit route means equality of treatment for all recipients. Expenditure on child benefit for this year is estimated to be in the region of €1.9 billion, a significant amount of money.

The amendment proposes a system of tax allowances for those paying for child care services. The allowance proposed is a maximum €7,000 per annum, the amount paid if it is less and if a taxpayer has insufficient income to use up all the allowance then the excess is lost. In effect, this allowance is to be given at the taxpayer's marginal rate of tax. Specifically, under this proposal, a married couple with high income could expect to benefit to the tune of almost €3,000 whereas a single parent in the PAYE section in receipt of €22,000 per annum would get no benefit. I do not believe that is what the Deputy has in mind. As can be seen from the example given, there are elements of regression in that proposal.

I do not suggest this is an easy issue to address. Having moved to a more equitable system of tax credits in personal income tax I do believe a system of tax allowances would address the issue.

No. I am putting forward the principle.

I have considered the issues involved. However, I am merely making the point that it is hard to achieve the holistic view of which the Deputy speaks.

The Deputy will be aware, in terms of the availability of services, that we have provided some 17,000 places through the equal opportunities child care programme at a cost of €313 million of the capital budget over the next five years. We have also introduced a series of tax measures which favour the supply of child care facilities. We have concentrated on promoting supply and on how to maintain equality of treatment. It is not as easy an issue to address as people may believe. Addressing the issue through the tax system is fraught with difficulty as it may not address the needs of those without taxable income who are encountering the same problem. I and others are aware of the cost of child care provisions. I cannot accept the amendment for the reasons outlined. Significant resources are being invested in this area. The child benefit route was adopted for the very good policy reasons I have enumerated. Trying to increase the supply of places is regarded as the best way of dealing with the matter. We know this is part of the social change in the country and we must seek policy responses to meet the situation without creating further division.

The Minister referred on a number of occasions today to the equal opportunities child care programme. Has the Minister had an opportunity to read the studies on the equal opportunities child care programme, which are highly critical? ADM runs it in a bureaucratic fashion and a significant number of local organisations cannot decipher and fill in the forms because they are so difficult. In effect, we are creating a regime where tax breaks are provided to the private sector, as with the nursing homes, to provide more places. That is certainly increasing supply in certain areas. In my constituency I have taken the opportunity to go around and talk to most of those involved in the child care programme, because I am doing a study of it.

The cost of minding a young infant in the Dublin area is well over €200 per week and from my recent experiences of talking to young mothers in counties Kildare and Meath, I do not see much difference in the price in those counties. By and large, the providers find it extremely difficult and costly to provide child care for infants because a baby must have a high level of attention. I wonder at the wisdom of the State in paying subventions to have seven or eight or 14 to 20 small babies minded in a child care facility rather than being minded on an individual basis. From talking to parents, many mothers in particular are unhappy with it. The equal opportunities child care programme, of which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is so proud does not address this. Parents must get up very early in the morning to leave a very small baby at a crèche before travelling to work in Dublin and they may not return until 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. The cost of minding a baby is equivalent to the cost of another mortgage.

The Government's programme is seriously lacking because in most countries, the period of maternity leave is much longer so that very young babies can be with one or other of their parents, which is where the baby should be. We have seen recent proposals in the UK to that effect. That has consequences for employers, but I agree with Deputy Bruton that this is an area that should not be just employer driven. Employment is a factor but it should not be the determining factor in regard to babies. From my reading of the reviews of the equal opportunities child care programme, it appears there is a significant variation countrywide in the supply; where well developed community organisations or associations exist, the supply of places is much higher and that is particularly true in rural areas. Perhaps the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív pays more attention to rural areas. It is much more difficult in urban areas, where the number of community funded places in community child care facilities is much smaller. In my area of Dublin 15, it has lagged behind. Fingal, which is one of the most highly populated counties in the State receives less under the EOCP, than counties Wexford, Donegal and perhaps even Offaly. We should remember that Blanchardstown has a population of 82,000, that is higher than either Galway or Limerick. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform believes the EOCP is a wonderful programme but while it has done some good, if the Minister were to speak to some community organisations he would learn about the difficulty in filling out the forms. We referred to slightly befuddled taxpayers not making the best use of inquiry lines, but the forms that community organisations are required to fill out place major demands on them.

When Deputy Woods was the Minister for Social Welfare, I was the Minister of State in his Department and was the person responsible for the change in policy in child benefit. That has been continued by every Government since for the reasons the Minister just outlined. However, serious questions must be asked about funding in the light of Government spending. The Government is giving tax breaks for child care places, but those places are so costly, that if a family with two children in child care has a third child, effectively one parent must give up work, because the cost of child care for three children is greater than a second mortgage, which is not sustainable. This issue must be addressed politically.

I am not saying that Deputy Bruton's proposal deals with the situation in its entirety but I applaud him for raising it. The Minister should open his mind to more than the operation of the EOCP. Some of the reviews were carried out by Departments. Last year ADM spent more than €8 million on its own administration of these unreadable forms and the administrative costs, shown at the back of the report, are between €1 million to €2 million in almost every county. In some counties more money was spent on administration than was spent on the provision of child care places.

I did not study the reports to the same level as Deputy Burton, but I was struck by the extraordinary skewed level of provision, where large swathes of low income areas do not seem to have any child care providers being grant supported. I agree fully that tax relief is not the answer, but I think we need to consider home carer support for children under the age of two or three and tax relief or capitation payments in respect of other providers to broaden the range of choice available to people. We must address this issue in a way that pushes well beyond what the Government is now looking at. The Minister seems to be indicating that he is struggling with the issues. That in itself is a good thing and perhaps over the next couple of years, we will be able to develop a set of proposals that will be broadly acceptable. I do not intend to press this amendment, but I think it has been a worthwhile debate and perhaps we will be able to return to the topic.

I agree with Deputy Bruton that we must continue to address our minds to this issue in a way that tries to deal with some of the remaining problems, in spite of the very significant new funds which are being applied to it. I referred to the equal opportunities child care programme. We have that programme and we are providing much money for it. We hope to create another 17,000 places in the overall scheme of things but that in itself will not solve the problem. It is an issue to which we should continue to address our minds to find a solution. I do not have all the answers but it is clear from this discussion that I am not on my own in this regard.

As it is now 5.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of 24 February 2005: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance to Chapter 2 of Part 1 of the Bill are hereby made to the Bill and in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said chapter, other than section 12, that the section, or, as appropriate, the section as amended, is hereby agreed to."

Question put and agreed to.

The committee will suspend for 30 minutes until 6 p.m.

I request a break of 35 minutes.

I wish to inform the committee that an issue has been raised with me in respect of section 14 of the Bill which deals with the adoption of a common approach in applying double taxation agreements in respect of taxation of share options. I am considering a technical amendment for Report Stage to deal with the matter.

Sitting suspended at 5.35 p.m. and resumed at 6.10 p.m.
Amendment No. 30 not moved.
NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 31:

In page 42, before section 20, but in Chapter 3, to insert the following new section:

"20.—The Minster shall by regulations determine the form of tax returns in such a way as to facilitate the compilation of statistics on the extent to which tax reliefs are availed of by taxpayers.".

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure tax returns are formatted in such a way as to facilitate the compilation of statistics on the extent to which tax reliefs are availed of by taxpayers. It is difficult to get information on two types of tax relief available to certain individuals. The Department continually informs me it is unable to supply the cost of the reliefs or indicate who are the beneficiaries.

During a recent discussion on the exemption from income tax for stallion owners, a distinction was drawn between two types of stallion owners, small operators with only a couple of stallions and large operators with an international dimension. Other exemptions apply to artists and woodlands. We do not have available to us information on which to make a judgment as to the effectiveness of the reliefs, the amount of tax foregone or their economic benefit, particularly as time passes. On what basis would a Government review of specific reliefs be carried out?

As I stated previously, there is a justifiable economic argument for incentivising certain types of economic investment or behaviour through the tax system and an examination of the range of tax exemptions available, particularly those introduced in recent years by the Minister's predecessor, would show this to be the case. I am on record as supporting, for example, reliefs available under the business expansion scheme, BES, and reliefs for the film industry and research and development because the latter is critical to the economy. Last year, the committee engaged in a useful debate on the film industry with various interested parties over a number of days. As a result, certain aspects of the relief package became more generous and defined, while others, including the area covered by one of the Government amendments, were tightened to ensure the country derives a real benefit from the relief.

The purpose of the amendment is to change the returns in order that we receive information on tax reliefs in a formatted manner. It is not acceptable that no information is available on what certain reliefs cost, whom they benefit and whether the tax foregone could be more usefully spent. Some reliefs are up to 40 years' old and the Minster and I may agree they are great but information is required.

When the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, extended property based reliefs to the upper Shannon region, he stated the area would come to resemble the Klondike as a result. That may have happened but no tracking is in place to enable information to be captured so that rational decisions can be made on whether reliefs and benefits are well targeted and meaningful or have outlived their usefulness.

By and large, I do not have a problem with the proposition that the cost of a certain relief may be so small that the cost of administering a detailed tax regulation would be greater. We should be generous in this respect. To return to the Minister's friends, the stallions, if an argument can be made for distinguishing between small operators and the major players, that would be fair enough. Similarly, we all favour tax breaks for struggling artists whom we recognise may earn significant income for only short periods of their working lives. Tax breaks for artists are, therefore, reasonable and fair. Again, however, we have no information on which to make distinctions. In a recent reply to a parliamentary question, for example, the Department indicated that one artist may have benefited from a tax exemption of approximately €28 million. While this does not appear credible, it was reported in a newspaper.

A recent area of development, on which I tabled several parliamentary questions to the Department last year, is the tax breaks introduced by the Minister's predecessor, Mr. McCreevy, for professional sportsmen. I understand the main beneficiaries will probably be professional rugby players, possibly some professional soccer players, although most of these are based in England and pay tax in the United Kingdom, and possibly some jockeys. Again, no information is given on who benefits from the reliefs and what are their costs, which would allow us to make some rational decisions.

I requested information from the Minister regarding nursing homes. Apart from informing members on the number of available beds, he was unable to provide precise details. That is not the way to structure economic or taxation policy.

I have also asked the Department detailed questions on pensions, particularly small, self-administered funds. Most salaried employees are restricted in the amount of tax relief they can avail of for pensions. While this is correct, proprietary directors, who can set up small pension schemes and others introduced last year, do not have such limits. Last year the then Minister for Finance introduced the capacity to borrow to fund such schemes. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs wants to amend this provision. However, again there is no detailed information. I tabled many parliamentary questions on the cost of such reliefs. The replies I received state the Department of Finance has no information on these or on the relief for sportspeople. It is a crazy scenario when a single person earning just above the average industrial wage, at €32,000, will pay some of his or her income at the 42% rate.

There is a golden area in the tax structure where some people are completely or significantly exempt from making any contribution in taxes. Those people use our roads. If they have an accident, they use our hospitals. Their children use publicly-funded schools. Why can we not get the information on the reliefs? If it is decided to retain tax incentives, information will be available as to who will benefit, the broader benefits available for the community and the duration they should be in place. This amendment seeks to get that detailed information from the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners. I accept that later in the year some information on exemptions will be available. The study undertaken by the consultants may also give some information about areas of activity. However, it is extraordinary that approximately 120 different schemes are available for some people to arrange their affairs to legitimately avoid significant amounts of tax or exempt significant amounts of their income from any form of taxation.

The Finance Acts 2003 and 2004 introduced several initiatives to ensure more detailed information will be made available to the Revenue Commissioners. This recognises that the level of information before was not what we would like it to have been. The Deputy is looking for something already obtained. The Deputy suggests that at the end of 2005 there will be some information. However, there is a statutory basis for this. The Finance Acts 2003 and 2004 introduced provisions to facilitate the collection of information on tax reliefs. Why must the Deputy continue with the argument as if she is the only one who is looking for this? This is agreed policy and we will get this information.

Section 86 of the Finance Act 2004 made further provision in this area, including requiring employers to provide additional information with end-of-year P35 returns in respect of tax deductible contributions from the salaries and wages of employees to pension products. Similar information will also be required in respect of tax deductible contributions made by employers to pension products. This information will be required for the 2005 and subsequent tax year. The first such returns are due in February 2006.

The 2004 measures also contained provisions designed to ensure persons would supply additional information in their tax returns on certain specified tax reliefs. The reliefs concerned are the various area and sectoral-based property schemes. For individuals, the additional information will be required to be included in the 2004 tax returns to be submitted by the end of October 2005. In the case of companies, the additional information will be included in tax returns to be submitted on or after 30 September 2005. I announced in the budget the full review of certain tax reliefs and exemptions to be undertaken for the 2006 budget. This will examine the balance in the benefit of such reliefs and the extent to which the incentives and exemptions are used by high earners to reduce their tax bills. All this is in the process of being collated. We do not need another provision to enable this to happen.

I note the Deputy's argument concerning the tax exemption for artists and the limited time they have to make their income. One can use the same argument for sportspeople. However, it was not put as benignly for them as it was for artists. While the Deputy has less objections to one than the other, the same rationale can be used in both cases. Based on the 2001 data, 1,200 claimants used the artist's tax exemption scheme at a cost of €37 million. I will review these schemes with a view to examining the position of artists in our society. While I am from the midlands, I am not a Philistine. I understand the role of artists in society and how important their contribution is to cultural life. This scheme was introduced in 1969 by the then Minister for Finance, Mr. Charles Haughey. Matters have moved on since then and we should examine how to apply it in the future. It is not a question of not understanding the benefits these schemes have brought and the stature we should accord to artistic achievement and excellence. Ireland has been rightly praised for the scheme, which is seen as an enlightened approach.

The information is being collected so this provision is not necessary. I admit that in the past it was less than ideal but we are now addressing the issue. It will always be argued that more statistics must be sought. However, a balance must be achieved between getting statistics and ensuring the taxpayer is not overwhelmed when filling out forms. On an earlier amendment, the Opposition argued that the Revenue Commissioners were making tax matters too difficult and detailed. One picks the argument depending on the section one is addressing. There is no disagreement on the further information we want to see from tax returns. The 2004 income tax returns and the equivalent capital tax returns will capture the information sought. On the basis of information received, we can then make policy decisions.

Will the Minister provide me with the numbers of professional sportspeople using the exemption?

I will check to see if the information is available. The scheme was only recently introduced, compared with the artist's exemption. If the information is not available, it will be collated from this tax year.

Those playing in voluntary sports codes are not assisted, even though GAA players spend much of their free time training and give much back to the community. The Minister has a different approach to his predecessor who would not address this issue. Only two years ago, the Revenue Commissioners' studies showed 400 taxpayers availed of approximately €78 million in property-based tax breaks available through the tax break regime. I do not understand why the Department of Finance or Revenue should feel threatened because the Opposition looks for the information. We are asking for it in order that we can make a rational assessment of the worth or otherwise of the tax breaks. Last year this committee had detailed discussions with the interests involved in the film industry. The Revenue Commissioners and officials from the Department of Finance suggested there were serious abuses about which they were legitimately concerned. The end result of those committee hearings was that some of those abuses were brought to an end while the inherent scheme, the purpose of which was to promote a particular activity, was not just continued but expanded.

The Minister should not feel threatened if the information is available. The Government has fought a rearguard action in the past two years to prevent its disclosure. I could read out question after question in which I asked how many benefit and the tax forgone. On each occasion I have been told the Department does not know.

The information is not yet available.

It is a scandal that it is not available.

I could get someone to table more questions than the Deputy and he or she would say the same thing but that is not the point. The point is that in the 2003 and 2004 Finance Bills we brought forward measures to ensure the information would be available, that is, information which was not available prior to 2003 under any Administration or any Labour Party or Fine Gael Minister for Finance. Let us stop trying to make petty political points. My predecessor introduced amendments to Finance Bills. They are now law and the information will be made available.

I do not feel threatened in any way. What I find amusing is the idea of being accused of feeling threatened when the Deputy knows we do not have the information. When it is available, it will be made accessible. It will be put on the website when everyone can look at it. There is no problem providing information. We will provide as much as we possibly can. The issue is being dealt with.

There seems to be a refusal on the part of the Deputy to acknowledge the changes introduced by this Administration which were not introduced during her party's time or anyone else's time in office. We are being beaten with the same stick, despite making changes, yet someone tells me not to feel threatened. We do not have the information in the form the Deputy wants it but we will get it. We have no problem with this.

I am the guy who has initiated a comprehensive review and I will deal with the issue in a rational, objective and sensible way, not in a piecemeal way or on the basis of whether one looks more benignly on the artist than the professional or amateur player. I was an amateur player and know all about the GAA. I was that soldier playing at the higher level, although perhaps not with the same distinction as others. Therefore, I know all about the commitment shown by the people concerned, the time involved and so on.

Without labouring the point, the information is being collected. When it is available, it will be accessible to me, the Deputy, the Chairman and everybody else. We will make policy decisions, although we will probably argue over them. We can have a democratic debate, with which I will have no problem. The Deputy should not say to me that I should stop feeling threatened in not giving her answers to her questions. She knows I do not have them.

The Minister should have them.

The Deputy knows I do not have them. She also knows that if she had asked former Ministers, Deputy Quinn, Garrett FitzGerald and Richie Ryan the same questions, they would not have had the answers. Therefore, let us stop playing games.

We are just having an argument for the sake of it. I know there are two by-election campaigns which are probably colouring this and the reason the Deputy is going on and on about it. The information is being collected. My predecessor introduced the amendments which provided the statutory powers to enable it to be collected.

We are always trying to improve the collation of information, that is, relevant data. We could include a lot of questions on a tax form which would give one many statistics, the usefulness of which would be of doubtful. However, that does not make the information any better, nor does it ensure compliance by taxpayers. There is always a balance to be struck in terms of the paperwork involved, the number of questions asked, the way they are tabled and what we will do with the information when it is collated. Specifically, tax reliefs, exemptions and so on were covered by the Finance Bills of 2003 and 2004. Therefore, we do not need this amendment to the Finance Bill 2005. We will make decisions when we have the information.

For somebody who does not feel threatened, the Minister protests vehemently. I think he is feeling rather insecure, judging by the tone of his reply.

I do not refer to the tone of anybody else's reply. I am making the point out of exasperation. That is the tone. The Deputy was Labour Party spokesperson last year and in 2003. I was not here then. I am sure she is well aware that the Finance Act 2003 provides for the collection of information on certain reliefs while the Finance Act 2004 provides for the collection of further information on other reliefs. This is two and two equals four stuff. I do not see why the Deputy keeps going back to the blackboard to try to make it five.

I had to campaign long and hard to get the former Minister, Charlie McCreevy, to grudgingly acknowledge that the whole tax avoidance industry had gone completely out of control. On the one hand, a person earning €31,000 or €32,000 faces a marginal tax rate of 42% which, by the way, is not a low marginal tax rate when one adds social welfare contributions, while, on the other, there is a tax avoidance industry which enables people with extraordinary levels of income to make no contribution whatsoever. I do not care whether it exasperates the Minister if I repeat that somebody with an income in excess of €200,000 makes no income tax contribution because a plethora of avoidance mechanisms have been specially designed for them. That is wrong and there are no two ways about it.

I debated this issue for two years with the former Minister who took the road of St. Augustine and said, "Lord, let me curtail tax avoidance but not just yet". As a consequence, the Minister will not have this information, as he has acknowledged, for at least another six or seven months. God only knows the delays which will be experienced after that.

It is a disgrace that workers on ordinary incomes must declare everything while those benefiting from an extraordinarily generous tax break from the State must hardly fill in any information at all. To what extent will the new format cover some of the extraordinarily generous tax breaks for high net worth individuals and their pension arrangements through a variety of tax avoidance devices? Everybody in this room is limited in what he or she can claim in tax reliefs and pensions. A scenario was developed by the Minister's predecessor which was probably foolishly over generous to a specific group of individuals. Nobody likes paying tax but there must be equity where the person on a modest income struggling to bring up a family has some assurance that the big guys will at least make a fair contribution. That is not revolutionary but very reasonable.

The record shows — there is no point having an argument about it — the number of compliance mechanisms introduced by my predecessor to improve tax collection, the level of tax compliance and ensure equity. He did an awful lot for which he will never get credit from the Deputy's quarter. On the one hand, the Deputy says she has no problem in principle with tax incentivisation but, on the other, she says if everyone does not pay on every euro of his or her income, there is inequity, although she recognises why people with higher incomes should be considered in terms of economic activity and social development, from which a community benefit would derive or accrue to the common good. She cannot have it both ways.

I am as keen as anybody else to see equity and balance in the system. I want to put in place a system in which everybody pays a fair share. I want to ensure the tax system incentivises the maintenance and creation of jobs, as well as further development and investment in areas where there has been no investment before now. I know all about the problems faced by places which have a tradition of deprivation. The Celtic tiger has not roared as loudly in such areas as it has on the eastern seaboard. I am familiar with such matters.

I remind those who criticise politicians by saying we could have done this or that or that we should have made certain changes that the benefit of hindsight is great. Benefits have been derived from the changes which have been made. I am undertaking to review all of this, in line with the Government's policy, not because I am opposed to further development but because I want to see how we can focus that development into the future. We need to use the tax system in an equitable, fair and balanced way.

We made some changes to the tax code in recent years and have ensured those on the average industrial wage who have a small disposable income can benefit from such changes. The Labour Party and other Opposition parties opposed the changes, as they were entitled to do. Such parties have opinions on these matters, just as the Government parties do. There is evidence to suggest that our actions over which we are prepared to stand have increased the number of employees by 600,000 and multiplied the revenue in our coffers. The tax relief schemes we have introduced have boosted economic activity. Some might say we should not have changed the system — that is democratic dialogue. The Government has a mandate to make decisions and it has done so on the basis of certain policies which are working for this country, unlike previous policies which failed to work to the same extent.

It is intended that the various pension tax reliefs will be examined as part of the overall examination of tax reliefs and incentives. I took office in October and said in my Budget Statement in December that all of these issues would be examined in a reasoned, objective and informed manner. The balance I have mentioned will be the central focus of the Government's considerations in that regard. Many claim to understand why incentivisation can work in certain circumstances. I do not suggest that it dominates our system but it can work in certain areas of public policy and should, therefore, be considered.

While the State does not have limitless resources, thankfully, it has increased resources as a consequence of the policies pursued by the Government. Incentivisation has increased investment in a range of areas. We will examine how the private sector can contribute to the development of the country's infrastructure, which is desired by many. That is what is involved. For some, the only thing worse than not getting what they want is getting what they want. I cannot add any more.

There has been a political effort to highlight inconsistency on my part, for example, by suggesting my policies are different from those of my immediate predecessor but none of that cuts any ice with me. I am here to do the job as I see it. I do not continue to comment on the policies of my predecessors, including those who opposed me politically, because they did the job as they saw it. I am here to do my job in present circumstances. The Government has a clear and consistent policy in this regard.

We have debated this amendment sufficiently.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 20 agreed to.
Sections 21 and 22 agreed to.
SECTION 23.

As amendments Nos. 32 and 33 are related, they may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 32:

In page 47, line 28, to delete "6" and substitute "10".

This straightforward amendment proposes to replace the period of retention of six years with a period of ten years.

Amendment No. 32 seeks to amend a provision in a new section that the Bill inserts in the Taxes Consolidation Act. The new section imposes a statutory obligation on those who wish to claim a tax relief for a year to keep all such records which are necessary to prove their claims. The provision the Deputy seeks to amend requires taxpayers to keep such records for six years after the end of the year to which their claims relate. The Deputy proposes that the relevant period be increased to ten years. When placing an obligation on taxpayers to retain documentation, we need to strike a balance between protecting the right of the Revenue Commissioners to investigate a claim and the placing of too heavy a compliance burden on taxpayers. Ten years is considerably longer than four years, the period in which taxpayers may make a claim and the period in which the Revenue Commissioners may normally investigate a claim. Such a period would contrast sharply with the retention period for tax purposes of six years in respect of business records. I am not prepared to accept the amendment in the interests of consistency.

The Labour Party's amendment proposes a compromise between the Minister's position and that of Fine Gael. Amendment No. 33 proposes that the period in which a claim can be made should be increased from four years to six. I do not propose to revisit the details of the argument I made earlier. In some circumstances taxpayers may need a longer period than six years in which to avail of refunds. I recommend this reasonable proposal to the Minister.

I am not prepared to accept the amendment which has highlighted a particular difficulty with the operation of this provision, as it stands. Taxpayers will have a four year period in which to make claims, starting at the end of the year to which their claims relate. One would normally expect a claim to be made within that period. If the claim is not made until the end of that four year period, however, the right of the Revenue Commissioners to inquire into the claim will have run out of time, as notice of intent must be given within four years of the end of the year to which the claim relates. That period is the same, in effect, as the period in which the claim may be made. It would be more appropriate to give the Revenue Commissioners a period in which to consider the claim and to start the time limit on the Revenue Commissioners at the end of the period in which the claim is made, not at the end of the possibly earlier year for which the claim is made. I would like to notify the committee that I intend to move a Report Stage amendment to provide for this.

I thank the Minister. It is a good compromise.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 33 not moved.
Section 23 agreed to.
Section 24 agreed to.
Amendment No. 34 not moved.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 35:

In page 49, before section 25, but in Chapter 4, to insert the following new section:

25.—"Section 268(2A) of the Principal Act is amended in paragraph (f) in the definition of ’qualifying hospital’ by inserting ’provides psychiatric services or’ before ’contains facilities’.”.

I would like to hear the Minister's comments on this amendment.

The amendment seeks to amend the definition of "qualifying hospital" in the industrial buildings tax allowance provisions in section 268 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. It appears its intention, in effect, to introduce a new scheme of capital allowances for psychiatric hospitals, based on the existing scheme for other private hospitals. The possibility of including psychiatric services within the ambit of the scheme of capital allowances for the construction of private hospitals did not arise when it was introduced in 2001. While I am not disposed to introducing a new scheme of capital allowances in respect of psychiatric hospitals at this stage, I fully appreciate the intention of the Deputy's amendment. I have received a number of representations on this issue which has been raised in the House.

While I am not without sympathy for the Deputy's proposition, he will be aware that I announced in my Budget Statement that the Government intended to conduct a review of tax reliefs and exemptions. Therefore, it may not be opportune to introduce a significant new relief at this stage. I hope the Deputy will accept my promise to consider the psychiatric hospitals issue before the next budget. The matter will be thoroughly evaluated.

I appreciate the positive nature of the Minister's response. There is an anomaly such that ordinary hospitals, if we can call them such, are able to avail of the tax relief while psychiatric hospitals are not. This is discriminating against those with a mental illness. In that context, it is important that the Minister has recognised the issue which I hope he will consider in his review. This anomaly should be addressed. There would not be a great uptake of the relief but it might serve the needs of one or two hospitals.

I wish to comment on the general position on capital allowances for the psychiatric service, particularly the provision of child psychiatry services. Information made available to us suggests that there are limited facilities available for children nationally. The only residential centre is located in Galway. While there is some support in what were health board catchment areas, it is limited. This has been a matter of public concern and debate for some time. Perhaps it could be considered in some future budget, as the Minister implied. It has been raised by professionals and I have commented on it on radio programmes, for example. I know the Minister, like me, has received representations from interested groups which would be prepared to provide child psychiatry services in the event of their receiving some break in terms of capital allowances. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that when he has received the reports, he will take this into consideration.

Most Deputies have received representations on this matter. I have received representations from a company with the interesting name of NHS Limited. I wonder at the argument that secure psychiatric facilities for children and adolescents should be funded through tax breaks.

A number of areas of the health service operate a two-tier system for all sorts of reasons, including historical, insurance and funding purposes. However, the one area of the system in which we have sought to provide universal services has been the one that deals with children and young people under 18 years. I would be extremely disturbed if we moved away from the notion of universal provision for children who need particular psychiatric services such as children with eating disorders or those who need secure lock-up facilities.

I do not want to get into an argument about the Minister for Finance's predecessor, former Deputy McCreevy; suffice it to say that some years ago, before I became spokesperson on finance, he introduced a tax break regarding psychological assessments in schools, a matter on which I was advised at the time and subsequently. The tax break is included in the list of qualifying expenditures under the health services heading, on which the present Minister furnished me with a reply recently. As his officials will know, it is widely acknowledged that the tax break resulted in a significant outflow to the private sector of psychologists who had been working with the Department of Education and Science. In this regard, one should bear in mind that there was an inadequate supply to start with. It may have suited many of the psychologists concerned because it allowed them to work part-time more easily than they could have done for the Department. Consequently, the Department has been playing catch-up in attracting qualified psychologists to work in its education service.

This is a complex issue. I came across a relatively disadvantaged community group last week which was trying to raise the €500 or €600 it would cost for a private psychological assessment. It simply could not get one from the Department of Education and Science through the normal mechanisms within a couple of years. I urge extreme caution in deciding to continue with the tax break in question because of the knock-on implications for the provision of psychiatric services. Qualified staff at various levels would leave our limited child psychiatry service and residential centres such as Trinity House. The staffing problems in such institutions are already horrendous. I am seriously concerned that if we offered a tax break for private sector developments, just as we have done in a number of areas, there would be a flight of qualified personnel from the public sector into the private sector which would be funded by tax breaks. Staff would probably find the private sector much more attractive financially.

Would this flight to the private sector be in the best interests of children? If parents have health insurance, they can obviously avail of services in private hospitals that have facilities for adolescents. However, we do not provide tax breaks for the establishment of such hospitals. This is a new development, as I am sure the Minister for Finance will know from his experience as Minister for Health and Children.

I wonder about a country that would set up, in absolute terms, a two-tier psychiatric service for children such that there would be one tier which would probably face staffing difficulties for children left behind in the public sector and another for children whose parents would have the resources to avail of the secure psychiatric facilities offered by the private sector. This is a step too far. I am sure the intentions of the promoters are very good.

In the United States there has been, particularly under the two Bush Administrations, a flood of people leaving public services, including prison services, to set up private services and attract staff from the public sector. We should not do so in Ireland unless we have researched all the implications fully.

On private hospitals being established around the country, the tax breaks are attracting serious investors with large sums to invest in private health care. The Hanly report suggested that hospitals of under 300 to 400 beds were unlikely to be fully viable. Most private hospitals have approximately 100 beds, as the Minister will note from the submission. Being private hospitals, they may work the hot bed system such that beds would be turned over much more rapidly than in the public system. Therefore, one might argue that the rate of utilisation of 100 beds in a private hospital is much higher than that in a 300 to 400 bed public hospital. Many private hospitals are to provide advanced cancer care and invest in cancer care machinery by way of tax breaks.

There has been a long debate about where such care should be provided. It will now be provided by the private sector. Do we want this? This year we are in the run-in to the tenth year before the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Proclamation. I would certainly be surprised, therefore, to see a Fianna Fáil Minister introduce such a nakedly two-tier system for children, particularly those with serious psychological needs.

Does anyone wish to comment further on this amendment?

I do not wish what I said to be misrepresented. I understand we are purchasing services outside the State in many instances where we do not have them here.

That is correct.

It is not a two-tier system. We should have a system which at the moment is only in place in one location. We have a responsibility, through one mechanism or another, to provide some facility. It is too bad that we must send people out of the State to have a service provided for them.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 36 has been ruled out of order.

May I make a point about the excise duty on biofuels?

We cannot debate the amendment which has been ruled out of order.

It is an important topic.

To what section does the Deputy refer? We are not discussing the amendment. Amendment No. 36 deals with——

It concerns excise duty relief in respect of biofuels. May I make a brief comment?

We can deal with the matter in the course of our discussion on the alcohol product tax. I cannot allow a discussion on the amendment.

I wish to put one question to the Minister. I submitted a parliamentary question on this topic today, as he probably saw. The issue is in limbo because in the Finance Act 2004 it was stated the Minister was creating a situation whereby biofuels could come into play. There has been a lacuna because nothing has happened. Will the Minister clarify the matter?

It must become an approved state aid under EU law. The Commissioner is due to tell us soon whether the regime we have put before him would be an approved aid.

What is the timeframe?

Some months. If we receive approval, we can tender for projects but we cannot do so until the Commission states the state aid we suggest is in line with its state aid regime.

Will we have approval in a few weeks?

I hope so.

Amendment No. 36 not moved.
Section 25 agreed to.

As there is a division in the Dáil, we must suspend the proceedings.

Sitting suspended at 7.05 p.m. and resumed at 7.20 p.m.
Sections 26 to 30, inclusive, agreed to.

I propose we move on to what would normally happen if the guillotine came into effect at 8 p.m., that is, where we were scheduled to begin tomorrow morning. If members agree, we have another 40 minutes to debate the Bill.

I agree with that, but is the paper we have an order of the House?

I will clarify matters for the benefit of the Deputy. It is a guillotine order stating that we must complete the various sections not later than the time stated. We can complete the sections earlier if we are in a position to do so.

NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 37:

In page 57, before section 31, to insert the following new section:

31.—Where a contractor is subject to section 531 of the Principal Act, he or she shall furnish to the Revenue Commissioners sufficient information to demonstrate that he or she is complying with any relevant requirement imposed by the Health and Safety Authority or by law.".

The amendment seeks to ask the Minister if contractors, under the tax arrangements relating to relevant contract tax, will be required to supply the Revenue Commissioners with sufficient information to demonstrate that they are complying with the relevant requirements imposed by the health and safety legislation or by any other laws. I am tabling the amendment in the context of the disturbingly high number of fatalities and injuries in the construction industry. I do not need to remind the Minister that every year a number of people in the construction industry are killed or seriously injured in accidents that could have been avoided. A number of people are disabled for life as a result of such accidents.

The Revenue Commissioners should use their pivotal position in respect of contract tax arrangements to ensure health and safety requirements are imposed. Anything that will increase the level of safety awareness and safety requirements in respect of the various elements of the construction industry, including logging and so on, that are subject to relevant contract tax will be worthwhile.

We must be careful in defining the statutory roles of the various authorities. Revenue's role is to collect tax. Of course, we are all anxious to see improvements in health and safety in the workplace, which has been enhanced by the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill. We set up the Health and Safety Authority to deal with the matter, and it should get on with its work.

The amendment relates to relevant contract tax. It is a tax which principal contractors are required to deduct from payments made to certain sub-contractors in the construction, meat processing and forestry industries. We all have the same views on safety in the workplace. Any death is one too many and should be avoided. I do not agree that the Revenue Commissioners are the competent authority for receipt or valuation of the information in question. Their role is to administer the tax system and collect the appropriate tax due under the law. The Health and Safety Authority is the specific body charged with responsibility for the promotion and enforcement of workplace health and safety. That authority monitors compliance with occupational health and safety legislation. It also takes enforcement action, including prosecution where necessary.

Members of the committee will be aware that the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004, which updates and amends the provisions of the earlier 1989 legislation, is continuing its passage through the Oireachtas. It went through Report Stage last week. Its focus is on the prevention of workplace accidents, illnesses and dangerous occurrences. It provides for significantly increased fines and penalties aimed at the minority who flout safety and health laws. Conviction on indictment for serious offences will now involve a maximum fine of €3 million under the legislation and-or imprisonment for up to two years.

If public awareness is the issue, the Health and Safety Authority is taking the initiative to try to reduce injuries and deaths on construction work sites. As there are 225,000 people employed in the construction sector, it is essential that the safety message is communicated adequately. As recently as mid-January last, the HSA launched the safe system at work plan. It relies heavily on pictograms to explain and clarify hazards and controls, creating a wordless document where safety can be communicated to all workers regardless of literacy, language skills or country or origin. It has the potential to make a positive impact in reducing the number of deaths and injuries in this important sector of the economy. Given the level of activity which has been taking place, unfortunately, there have been some accidents.

Safety in the workplace is of concern to all of us, whether big or small employers, employees, designers or architects. It is through legislation, regulation, education, training and enforcement that safety standards will improve. I am adamant that we ensure everyone has a job to do. The Health and Safety Authority has that job to do. The Revenue Commissioners exist to collect tax, and they must proceed on that basis.

Every avenue should be used to bring pressure to bear in regard to health and safety issues. The Minister is aware that many problems relating to safety lie with sub-contractors, because of lack of experience, their relative youth or because they are just one or two operators working for a main contractor. The bulk of accidents occur with sub-contractors. The main contractors often have good safety measures in place. However, it may not apply to sub-contractors who decide to cut corners, take risks and not observe regulations. The RCT certificate, which is important, is another way of putting pressure on these people.

I agree with the Minister that much effort has been put into extending health and safety awareness. However, there is still an unacceptably high level of deaths and injuries in the construction industry. Other countries have done much better by introducing safety concepts into different elements of work. The RCT certificate process is one element into which this concept could be introduced. I would like the Minister to keep an open mind on this if the level of accidents continues to be as high as it has been for the past number of years.

Amendment put and declared lost.
SECTION 31.

I move amendment No. 38:

In page 57, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

"(8) The Minister shall on the enactment of the Finance Act 2005 publish a complete list of the names of the institutions applying to benefit from this section, the developers and the investors in any scheme connected therewith.”.

I have raised with the Minister on a number of occasions the special extension introduced respect of a number of third level institutions in the context of building projects. The Minister stated on Second Stage that the institutions in question were St. Angela's College in Sligo, the Waterford Institute of Technology and the University of Limerick. Such projects usually apply to particular investors or developers. I want to know whether we can get that information.

I still do not understand, given the size and scale of these projects, how a number of them missed a well advertised closing date and closing procedure. The Minister suggested that his Department was responsible for the delays. At least that is what I understood. St. Angela's in Sligo is being expanded at the expense of the former institution in Blackrock in Dublin, which is being closed down. There is a fair amount of public interest.

We have been treated ad nauseam to accounts of the great deeds of the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, in promoting development in Waterford and of the need to have public relations assistance in doing that. Given the wealth of public relations expertise available in the Waterford region, I am amazed that anything promoted in Waterford would miss any deadline. I would be grateful if the Minister would expand a little on what exactly happened. This notice was posted on the website of the Department of Finance the evening before the Department closed for Christmas. Somebody was beavering away very late. I am intrigued as to how anything could be missed in Waterford these days.

I too was doing a lot of beavering in the Department right up to Christmas Eve, with all the enthusiasm of a new student in the class. That is probably one of the reasons it happened then. I am also interested in trying to solve problems that arise. The point is that the applications did not miss the deadline. It was the certification following processing that had not happened by 31 December 2004. The applications were in. They must be certified following processing. It takes some time to do that. I had conscientious officials in my Department who brought it to my attention that we might not be able to get this done on time. We needed to do something about that and not have an unjust situation in which three applications were in but certification had not taken place and the line was being taken that the time was up.

If changes are necessary to ensure such an injustice does not happen, I have no problem in making them. Therefore, I propose an amendment to section 31 which will make a minor change to the legislation providing for capital allowances for buildings used for third level educational purposes. During the Second Stage debate I explained that I was not extending the relief but rather giving my officials adequate time to complete the examination of a small number of applications which were still outstanding at the end of last year. Until now the ministerial certificate necessary to avail of the allowances had to be issued on or before 31 December 2004. I have simply ensured that the certificate can issue provided the application was received on or before that date. The applicants in question are the University of Limerick, Waterford Institute of Technology and St. Angela's College in Sligo. There will be no more applicants since the deadline for applications has now passed. There seems little point in introducing legislation along the lines proposed by Deputy Burton for publication of the names in these circumstances.

The second part of Deputy Burton's amendment concerns the developers. The certificate which the Minister for Finance issues is concerned solely with establishing that the required level of funding has been put in place by the institution and that these funds will be expended for certain specified purposes. The identity of the developers is not necessary for this legislative function which has been in place since the relief was introduced in the 1997 Finance Act. The developers are not normally mentioned in the documentation.

The final element in Deputy Burton's proposal is the publication of the names of the investors in these schemes. Provisions were included in the Finance Act 2004 introducing a number of changes to the tax return forms which will yield additional information regarding the cost of various tax reliefs, including the capital allowances provided for in section 843. Preliminary data should become available from early 2006 after the returns for 2004 are filed in October 2005. This information will be useful in the future in quantifying the true economic costs of these tax incentives. However, I am not convinced that publication of the names of those availing of these capital allowances adds anything to this process. It would also run totally counter to the long-standing tradition of taxpayer confidentiality. For these reasons I do not believe the amendment should be accepted.

Perhaps the Minister could help us. Did the delay in the certification process happen because information had not been supplied or was not available, so that fresh information had to be sought? It is unusual, particularly when there was such a well advertised deadline, that the Department was unable to proceed with the certification process. It is reasonable to ask what was the problem with the certification process. Were there problems regarding the scheme or the information supplied? Was there some problem in the Department regarding the information being submitted by the schemes? It is also reasonable to ask the Minister roughly what these proposals were for and broadly the amount of capital investment in respect of each of the three colleges. Is it €10 million, €20 million or €100 million?

Whatever about Sligo and Limerick, Waterford has extraordinary public information services through this Government.

At huge expense.

It certainly had until the middle of February. The Minister from Waterford had a public affairs consultant, three days a week, at €313,000 a year. He is the envy of the country. I cannot therefore understand how Waterford in particular would miss the deadline.

That joke is well worn at this stage. I intend to ensure that the people of Waterford who are interested in education hear the views of the Labour Party on possible investment in third level institutions in Waterford. I suppose there are people in the Labour Party in Waterford who say it should have a university, but its spokesperson here is suggesting there is some conspiracy regarding possible investment in Waterford. She has singled out Waterford — it seems investment in Sligo and Limerick is all right. Waterford city has been good to the Labour Party; it should be careful about trying to downgrade Waterford and believing there will be no consequences. We will look after our two seats there and the Labour Party can look after its seat, which is occupied by a very decent Labour Party Deputy and one of the nicest people in the House.

While the Deputy's questions are all reasonable, I always worry about the undertone of a conspiracy. There may an effort to suggest that some uisce faoi thalamh is involved. No uisce faoi thalamh is involved. The applications did not miss the deadline. No blame is to be attributed to anybody. The colleges in Waterford, Sligo and Limerick did not miss the deadline.

The workload in my Department was such that people said to me that it would not be possible to complete the necessary consultations for the relevant third level colleges, the Department of Education and Science, and the Revenue. Sometimes it takes some months to ensure the precise terms of the legislation are met. This takes some time. Just because an application arrives in a certain way it does not mean that is what will be certified or approved. There is no mystery about this.

I could have made the decision and perhaps some of those who are politically correct in this House might have considered it to be tough luck and if the work were not done by December it would not matter. In that case we could have forgotten about the colleges in Waterford, Sligo and Limerick. I am not that type of politician; perhaps some other people are. I look at the situation and see what is just and reasonable in the circumstances. They did not miss a deadline. We were not going to have the capacity to deal with it by 31 December, through nobody's fault. It was complex and required consideration and consultation. There was an insistence on ensuring that the certification would be correct, precise and within the law if we were to come up with a positive decision. I cannot even tell the Deputy whether the decision will be positive, as we have not yet made a decision on the matter.

It is very much a practical matter and a question of what is fair. Whether it is on the eve of Christmas Eve, Christmas Day or St. Stephen's Day, or 30 December at 11.40 p.m., if such an issue were brought to my attention by officials conscientious enough to do so, I would make the same decision. If it were in Blanchardstown, Belmont in Offaly or anywhere else I would give it a chance to try to attain certification. I would not sit back and say, "Sorry about that. You should have had it in five months ago." I do not see that as my role.

My role is to solve problems and not to create them. If these applications, in the normal course of events, are dealt with and reach a certification process I will be very happy for them. If they fail to do so, so be it. At least the people of Waterford, Limerick and Sligo would know that this Minister did not allow a bureaucratic issue to prevent proper consideration of such an important issue for third level institutions in those three areas. Any suggestion to the contrary——

I am very glad to hear that the Minister is in favour of Waterford. The statistics——

Regarding the University of Limerick, the application is in respect of the Jim Kemmy School of Business.

Why could the Minister not have told us that? I made a perfectly ordinary inquiry.

I have given the Deputy the answer.

The Government has closed down freedom of information.

I have not closed down freedom of information.

We cannot get ordinary information anymore.

I am not going to allow the Freedom of Information Act to be used excessively by people who felt they could get my officials to do their investigative work. The Freedom of Information Act works exceptionally well. We simply ensured that if people wanted to put my officials to work they would pay a reasonable fee for so doing. I do not see what is so unreasonable about that. Were we to be doing otherwise I would have to postpone the processing of this matter for another six months because we would be doing all this other nonsense.

It is interesting to note that the Minister believes freedom of information is nonsense.

No, I refer to abuse of the Freedom of Information Act. The Deputy should not misrepresent me.

What abuse? There was one case of abuse.

It was clear from the Information Commissioner and various reports.

There was one case of abuse.

It was not one case. I know——

The Minister's top civil servants appeared before the committee and cited one case.

I did not interrupt the Deputy. Everybody in the Government and Opposition knows that the Freedom of Information Act was being used way beyond its legislative intent. People were being asked to trawl through a whole range of issues to see if something could be found for a further discussion. Everyone knew what was going on. It was preventing genuine issues being investigated. I have no problem with freedom of information. However, I do not want public servants to spend all their time working for inane reasons like finding the past 30 years' VAT refunds for sheep dealers in Sligo. This was the sort of nonsense that went on. It was crazy stuff that was never envisaged under the Act.

I want to proceed with the debate.

I am entitled to reply. The Minister is probably not aware that I worked extensively in Waterford. I have a huge interest in seeing Waterford developed. I worked as an accountant in Waterford Glass for a number of years. I know how badly the south east has done. Deputy Nolan is present. The last statistics from the regional authority, showing how badly the certain parts of the south east have done in terms of income levels compared with the west, are astonishing. I am sure Deputy Nolan will agree with me. I have favoured the establishment of a university in Waterford for probably the past 15 years when it was first proposed. If we want to get the record straight, we should compare real records. I asked a perfectly legitimate question of the Minister.

I had no problem answering it.

It needed to be dragged out of the Minister.

It did not.

We now know it is the Jim Kemmy Business School, which is very positive. Can we also ascertain what are the developments in Waterford and St. Angela's? I am asking for information. I do not believe there is a stronger supporter in this House than me of investment in third level education, particularly in regional areas like Waterford. I have been such a supporter for as long as I have been involved in public life. The Minister can go back to the representatives of the WIT and tell them this for the record.

I will of course.

What Fianna Fáil has done for the south east in its past eight years in Government is a disgrace.

It is easily known that two by-election campaigns are underway. On Second Stage I was asked to name the institutions and I did so without any problem. The Deputy now wants further information and I will give it to her in so far as I have it. I have no problem with giving information. However, it is not appropriate to suggest that in dragging information from me I have something to hide. I have nothing to hide.

In that case the Minister should tell us.

I take exception to any dramatics by the Deputy to suggest I have. I have already explained and I explain once again to the people of Waterford, Sligo and Limerick that I had no problem in facilitating ensuring that they may get a certification for their third level institutions. While the question is being reasonably asked, the undercurrent is that as all this happened on the eve of Christmas Day, the developers must be friends of mine or friends of Fianna Fáil.

Nobody said that

It is always unsaid.

In that case the Minister should tell us.

I do not know who these developers are, nor do I care.

If the Minister has nothing to hide, he should give us the information.

While the Deputy can interrupt me as much as she likes, I only care about ensuring that these institutes have an opportunity to get benefits under this scheme like everybody else. The Deputy has had a 20-minute discussion about her commitment to Waterford and everything else.

The Minister could have given us the information at the beginning.

There is no problem. I am not going to allow the Deputy to suggest that there was some undercurrent but she smoked it out to make sure the Fianna Fáilers did not do something under the table. There is nothing under the table about me. I do not need any lessons in integrity from anybody. I stand over everything I do and I explain why I did it. If I were to do it again I would do it in the same way. I would have no problem in doing it for a project in the Deputy's constituency or Cork or anywhere else if it were deemed objectively necessary. That is the sort of person I am. There is nothing under the table or uisce faoi thalamh and no need for conspiracy theories.

The situation is clear. The applications were received on time, but were not going to be dealt with by 31 December. My officials are very busy and work hard, whether on the budget, preparation of finance Bills or many other matters. It came to my attention on the eve of Christmas Eve that we had a difficulty. I said there was no problem and that we would sort it out. The problem was sorted as I have suggested and I immediately brought what I was doing to the attention of the public. Another person might have left it — I suppose I will be accused of the same — until everyone was gone away on holidays after Christmas. A person cannot win in this situation. No matter what one does, there is some suggestion of a problem. There is no problem.

I do not know whether these applications will be successful. I have no personal involvement in them. They will be dealt with by Department officials, the Department of Education and Science and the Revenue Commissioners. What is all the beef about? What is the long discussion about? There is no need for a long discussion.

Will the Minister give us the information he said he would give us?

I gave the Deputies whatever information I have.

No, the Minister told us about the Jim Kemmy school. Let him tell us about Waterford and St. Angela's College.

I do not know. The information I have here does not tell me any more about St. Angela's College in Sligo.

What is the position regarding Waterford and how much is the capital investment?

The application for St. Angela's College in Sligo is for €8.9 million. The University of Limerick, Jim Kemmy School of Business, application is for €16 million. The Waterford Institute of Technology application is for €53.75 million. Those are the applications. This is not, however, the estimated Exchequer cost, as not all elements of the projects will qualify for relief. The cost is usually approximately 42% of the qualifying cost of the development. What the Deputy is asking me is in process. These are not the figures which will qualify for relief. Whatever the final relief is as a result of this consultation and discussion will be 42% of that qualifying cost. That is as much information as I have as of now.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 31 agreed to.
Sections 32 and 33 agreed to.
SECTION 34.
Amendment No. 39 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 40 and 41 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 40:

In page 61, paragraph (b), to delete lines 37 to 42 and substitute the following:

"(iii) by substituting the following for subparagraph (iv):

‘(iv) in relation to the minimum amount of money to be expended on the production of the qualifying film—

(I) directly by the qualifying company on the employment, by the company, of eligible individuals, in so far as those individuals exercise their employment in the State in the production of the qualifying film, and

(II) directly or indirectly by the qualifying company, on the provision of certain goods, services and facilities, as set out in regulations made under subsection (2E),',".

These amendments relate to section 34, which amends the film relief provisions in section 481 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. The effect of the first amendment is to substitute a new subparagraph (4) in subsection (2A)(g) of section 481. The provision in this subparagraph relates to a condition which the Revenue Commissioners are already required to include in any certificate which they issue under section 481 regarding a qualifying film. The condition requires that a minimum amount of money must be expended upon the production of a qualifying film which relates to the employment of eligible individuals and the provision of certain goods, services and facilities.

Effectively, any certificate issued by the Revenue Commissioners will include a condition that the minimum amount expended on the production of a film must be equal to or greater than the amount of relevant investments which are raised under the scheme. This amendment clarifies that expenditure on the employment of eligible individuals must be directly by the qualifying company, namely, the company that raises the relevant investments and which is responsible for the production of the film. Also, the individuals must perform the work in this State.

The second amendment is a consequential amendment the effect of which is to provide that the Revenue Commissioners may include a provision in regulations which they make under the scheme with regard to the employment of eligible individuals and the circumstances in which expenditure by a qualifying company will be regarded as being on the employment of those individuals on the production of a qualifying film.

We should be grateful that the relief still exists as there was an attempt by the Minister's predecessor to remove it. Why has there been further strengthening of the provisions? I remember that previously the amount of excess funding was in the region of €60 million, though I may be corrected on that. Why is this relief being concentrated on in the Finance Bill when the Minister has set up a review of all tax reliefs and he has not been prepared to set qualifying criteria for a slew of such reliefs, particularly in the property area? It seems that somebody in the Department is very much opposed to the idea of film relief. It appears that if it cannot be got rid of, it must be tightened up every so often. Will the Minister justify or explain why he considers this provision is necessary and why the film industry relief is being treated differently from the raft of tax reliefs already in the system?

There have been three reviews of the scheme in the past ten years. It was when Albert Reynolds was the Minister of Finance that he indicated that we could use the tax system profitably for the purpose of developing the film industry. Fianna Fáil has always supported the provision of support for the industry.

Fianna Fáil intended to get rid of it.

We were the instigators of the scheme. I was a member of the Government that brought it forward. We have reviewed it because it is important to ensure we have full information and that the scheme works the way we want it to work for the benefit of people and jobs here. As the Deputy knows, the area of finance for films and the corporate financial arrangements for the business are very complex. The nuances of the scheme must be fine tuned all the time or in the event of any issues arising. Revenue needs full information on the provision as it must do the certification. It must know the issues. If Revenue asks for information, we must have certain information to ensure the scheme works as the Government wants it to work. We provide amendments in finance Bills to provide for this.

The fact we provide amendments does not mean we are less committed to the scheme. We are trying to improve it and ensure it is not used in a way not envisaged or contemplated. It is an ongoing legislative process. We must deal with the level of complexity and change in the industry and ensure that we continue to attract investment from the business in a way beneficial to Ireland and people involved in the business. That is what we are doing.

I emphasise these points for the Deputy because of his comments that we are somehow not committed to this scheme. The objective evidence is against him. When I, or my predecessor or anybody else, want to ensure we do not end up in a situation where we are too generous or over-stretch, we are doing our job by reviewing the situation. When line Ministers bring forward views contrary to what exists or defend their position, that is part of the nature of government. It is the way good government works.

If the Minister wants kudos for the introduction of the tax relief, I am prepared to give it. However, I sat in this room and listened to submissions on film relief. There was an attempt made, indeed a decision had been made by the Minister's predecessor to get rid of this relief. That is the irony.

There was no such decision.

This committee held hearings and submissions were made on the issue. There was a reason for that.

There was no such decision.

In the interest of clarity and for the benefit of the Deputy, the reliefs were due to expire and this committee met to discuss an extension of them for a further period. That was not on foot of a decision.

I have a reservation about this further tightening up. The Minister must understand the international context about these reliefs and the competition Ireland faces from other countries. Britain introduced tightening criteria along these lines in the past two years. The result of that tightening has been that fewer films have been made in Britain. That should be to our benefit because we are a competitor nation and films with an English or British setting have been made in Ireland as a result of our tax reliefs. Why does the Minister propose we take a road a neighbouring jurisdiction has taken, but not to its benefit?

I disagree with my colleague. We are loosening the relief available rather than tightening it. The explanatory memorandum states: "in line with the State aid approval by the European Commission for this relief, the section deletes the requirement that 75 per cent of the work on the production of a qualifying film must be carried on in the State." It is for the reason that this provision proposed to loosen the requirements that I question it.

If, for example, we take a film costing gross €10 million or whatever, how much of that money can be spent abroad and yet qualify for tax relief here? Some of the money may even be spent outside the European Union. Has the Minister a model or scenario that will show us a rough breakdown of the relief available so we can see how much of it benefits work generated, paid for and carried out in Ireland?

The Deputy makes a good point. There is no animus against this relief among this Administration. We have worked all the time to see where the industry is going and to ensure we continue to be at the forefront in terms of its benefit to us. The European Union insisted we had to drop a requirement in the legislation that 75% of production work should take place in the State. In these circumstances, it was important to strengthen permissible requirements with regard to the Irish spend. In other words, we want to ensure we get the Irish spend on the investment.

Amendment No. 39 seeks to delete paragraph (a) of section 34 of the Bill which itself amends the film relief provisions in section 481 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. The effect of paragraph (a) is to delete the requirement from the legislation that a certain percentage of the work on the production of a qualifying film be carried out in the State. In cases other than co-productions that percentage was set at 75%. This deletion was necessary in order to secure EU state aid approval of the scheme of film relief which was received from the EU Commission in late 2004.

While this requirement has been deleted, the Commission agreed in its approval of the relief that it is acceptable to continue to restrict the amount of a film budget which qualifies for relief under this scheme to the amount expended in the State on the production of the film. We are trying to ensure that people spend more here in order to get more relief. We have had to drop the previous requirement of having to spend three quarters on production work in Ireland. As we cannot insist on that any longer we are saying that the more people spend here, the more relief they can avail of up to the limits that are available.

It is now after 8 p.m.

To end on a happy note, I remind the Minister that the real successful expansion of the film industry occurred in the period that Deputy Michael D. Higgins was Minister. Both of us served with him.

He was acting on Albert Reynolds's report.

I saw a photograph of a very happy looking Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, with Lassie for the remake of the film "Lassie Come Home" which is to be filmed in Ireland. Congratulations all around.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins had a long face on him for a month afterwards.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The select committee adjourned at 8.05 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 March 2005.
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