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Select Committee on Foreign Affairs debate -
Friday, 18 Jun 1993

Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs

(Revised Estimate).

Chairman

On behalf of the Select Committee I should like to welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, his Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, and their officials. We have already had the experience of the Secretary and officials of the Department in the general committee, a very fruitful one when we had a very valuable exchange with them.

We will now proceed to consider the Foreign Affairs Revised Estimates following the suggested timetable before Members, which will enable us to consider No. 38, the Vote for Foreign Affairs, up to 12.30 p.m. After a break of half an hour we will then proceed to consider No. 39, the Vote for International Co-operation. Is that agreed?

Yes, but may I raise a point in relation to the amount of time allowed to spokespersons of the various parties to contribute? On Vote 39 I have been designated to speak on Overseas Development Aid, and I find that I shall have five minutes only, which applies also to all the other spokespersons. I find that rather short. Is there any way in which we could be afforded some small extension of time at your discretion, Chairman?

Chairman

The schedule before us was agreed by the representatives of all groups on the committee and agreed with the Minister and his Department. However, I take Deputy Connor's point. If there is any flexibility in the course of the afternoon, we shall see how it goes; but the timetable was agreed.

Before proceeding to the actual debate I should like to welcome Deputy Mary Flaherty who is substituting for Deputy Hogan. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am sure we can consider Deputy Connor's request during the interval to see if we can be helpful.

I am extremely pleased to participate in the discussion of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs for the first time today. As I have already made clear, I warmly welcome the establishment of this committee and the opportunity it provides for regular and reflective discussion across a whole spectrum of foreign policy issues.

When I spoke on the floor of the House on 28 April, introducing the motion establishing this Select Committee, I set out what I see as some of the key ingredients and defining characteristics of Irish foreign policy. Given the time constraints, I will not seek to develop that analysis further today. However, as we undertake our examination of the Revised Estimates for Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, it is well to acknowledge that no debate about resources allocation is value-free. Underlying any discussion on these Votes are some implicit assumptions about the proper scope and direction of Irish foreign policy.

There are two widely differing views on this subject which are quite commonly articulated. At one end of the spectrum there are the minimalists, who tend to view the foreign service as essentially a luxury the country cannot afford, or who see our embassies as justified simply in foreign earnings terms. At the other extreme there are the maximalists, who argue that our foreign policy to date has been radically underdeveloped, with too many political and moral imperatives ignored, and insufficient reflection of the traditional outward-looking approach of Irish people. The first of these views is extremely short-sighted; the second does not always take sufficient account of the constraints within which we must operate.

It makes little sense to prescribe a kind of political isolationism as a response to our economic difficulties. We would be wrong to undervalue the political, cultural and consular dimensions of foreign policy. It is undoubtedly true that Irish diplomatic missions have a crucial role to play in advancing Irish trade and investment interests. With nearly 300,000 people unemployed in Ireland, promotion of foreign earnings must, and does, rank among the very highest priorities in planning and resource allocation. But it can never be the exclusive frame of reference, nor indeed can the development of foreign earnings take place in isolation from the wider political and economic background of international relations. Foreign policy involves the projection of a whole series of interests and concerns and the balancing of one against the other when they come into conflict.

It is perhaps also worth making the point that a one-dimensional foreign policy is unlikely to succeed even in its own terms. Within the European Community, for example, we sometimes find ourselves articulating a vital national interest; at other times the issues are principally of concern to other member states or of general common interest. But in my experience we are much more likely to receive a hearing if we are an informed and respected voice across the full range of issues rather than seeking the floor simply to advance or defend an interest that is parently national.

To the foreign policy maximalists I would say that I share many of your instincts, but it is important that they be tempered with a sense of realism. The Irish diplomatic network is small — apart from Luxembourg, we have fewer than half the number of overseas missions of any EC country. Although we would hope to develop our network in a modest way over the next few years, the financial and personnel constraints will certainly continue to limit what is possible. We cannot have a presence in every part of the world nor actively espouse every worthwhile cause on the international agenda. Irish foreign policy is likely to be most successful if it is highly focused, with prioritisation of efforts around a limited number of key objectives.

The Anglo-Irish agenda and the EC agenda will continue to be uppermost in any ordering of our priorities. The committee's discussion today takes place in the aftermath of the bilateral summit in London and in the run-up to the European Council in Copenhagen. In their different ways the issues arising at both these meetings are crucial for every man, woman and child in this country.

I have availed of other occasions to set out my views in detail on the Northern Ireland situation. Today I will simply underline again the importance of an early resumption of talks. We are all aware of difficulties that lie in the way and the position of some of the Northern parties, which are not particularly encouraging at present. At the same time we must be conscious that it is all too easy to develop a rationale for inaction. At the summit in London earlier this week both Governments were concerned to avoid that pitfall and determined that their resources should be brought to bear as fully as possible on the search for political progress. What we urgently need now is a genuine commitment on all sides to work actively to create the conditions in which movement can take place.

The prospects for the ratification by the autumn of the Maastricht Treaty look good and the Copenhagen Summit next week should see the European Community back on track again. It has been a difficult year for the Community, with serious jolts caused by the Danish rejection of the Maastricht Treaty and the monetary crisis. The difficulties and complexities of moving towards European Union have been graphically underlined. But the underlying impulse has remained intact and the Community's ambitions have survived. Indeed it is a measure of faith in the Community that negotiations on enlargement are now under way and we are in the process of deepening the Community's relations with the rest of Europe.

Progress is now being made in the enlargement negotiations. Some of the most sensitive areas, such as agriculture and regional policy, will be addressed in the near future. The applicant countries are now in the process of developing their negotiating positions and holding preliminary contacts with the Commission. The next stage will be for the Commission to make proposals to the Council as to how particular problem areas may be addressed. I know that this committee plans to follow the enlargement negotiations carefully and I look forward to drawing on the ideas that will emerge from your considerations.

If the EC has had its difficulties in recent times, no single issue has preoccupied the member states as much as the need to develop an effective response to the situation in the former Yugoslavia. The scale of the violence and wanton destruction has been horrific. Values which we had taken to be part of the fabric of European civilisation have been ruthlessly set aside.

Members of the committee are familiar with the efforts that have been made over many months to find a way forward. As successive initiatives to bring peace to the area have been undermined by further violence on the ground, the sense of utter frustration — a sense which I fully share — has increased. But it would be even more tragic if we allowed our anger and frustration to turn to resignation and despair. The efforts to find a comprehensive political settlement must continue. The renewed negotiations in Geneva this week and the prospect of a ceasefire, scheduled to come into effect today, give at least some grounds for hope.

I know that the committee has been fully briefed on the various elements of the Government's approach. These include: support for the International Conference on Former Yugoslavia; Involvement on the ground — 36 Irish Defence Forces personnel and members of the Garda Síochána are serving with the EC Monitor Mission, the UN peace-keeping force, UNPROFOR, and the EC Humanitarian Aid Task Force in Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Albania; assistance to refugees and displaced persons — in 1993, £320,000 has, to date, been allocated for former Yugoslavia, including £250,000 to UNHCR as the lead agency co-ordinating the international relief effort; support for the victims of rape, including the training of a group of counsellors from former Yugoslavia who are currently in Ireland for intensive training with the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre in assistance to rape victims; support for the efforts to bring those responsible for war crimes in former Yugoslavia to justice through the establishment of an international tribunal.

I have carefully read the terms of the committee's resolution on the situation in the former Yugoslavia. I believe that the objectives it identifies correspond closely to the policy which the Government are pursuing and I can therefore assure the committee that I will take them fully into account. The issue of refugees is one which the Government will need to consider further before any decision is taken.

In regard to Somalia, the tragedy of a country torn apart by conflict perhaps strikes us most vividly when it happens in the heart of Europe; but the interaction of natural and man-made disasters in parts of Africa provides at least as grim a spectacle. The attack on UN soldiers in Mogadishu two weeks ago resulted in the largest loss of life in a UN operation since the sixties. Yesterday again UNOSOM suffered some casualties. Civilians, too, have been killed and wounded.

These are matters of the utmost concern, especially since a transport unit from the Permanent Defence Force is scheduled to go to Somalia within weeks. The Dáil will have an opportunity to discuss this in detail shortly. If Dáil approval is forthcoming, this will be the first time that an Army unit will serve with a UN peace-enforcement operation, UNOSOM II, established under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.

The Government decided that we should participate in UNOSOM II to show our concrete support for the UN in its efforts to bring peace and stability to Somalia. Participation also reflects our commitment to upholding the role of the UN in maintaining world peace and security, even in difficult and complex situations. Our participation will strengthen our position in demanding protection for our aid workers by troops from other countries.

We regret and deplore the killings and deaths, particularly of women and children, in Mogadishu. We sympathise with the Somali people, who have suffered terribly at the hands of the warlords. We must pay tribute to all those, including Valerie Place, from many countries, who have given their lives for the cause of peace and reconciliation in Somalia.

We welcome the UN's decision to investigate the recent incidents in Mogadishu. I hope that the investigation will be a full one and will draw the necessary lessons both for the operation in Somalia itself and for future UN operations of this kind. It would be deeply worrying if the UN forces, whose objectives is peace, became the focus of resentment or rejection of the Somali people. We have made our concerns known to the UN at a very high level and will continue to follow developments closely.

I have spoken about the situations in the former Yugoslavia and in Somalia because they are the crises most pressingly on our minds. As we know, a common feature to both situations is the presence or intended presence of Irish personnel on UN service.

Subheads 1 and 2 of the International Co-operation Vote deal with our contributions to international organisations. The UN contribution at around £3 million is very substantial and has crept steadily upwards as the UN expands its peacekeeping operations in various parts of the world. The challenges that face the UN have never been greater. The new political landscape which emerged from the collapse of the Cold War has freed the organisation from the sterile, ideological divisions that beset it in the past. There is a new sense of urgency and revitalisation. Although universally welcomed, this global transition has been accompanied by outbreaks of civil and ethnic strife in various regions of the world.

New and more costly demands have been placed on the UN, including requests for peace-keeping missions to resolve these conflicts. The recent establishment of a mission for Mozambique brings to 13 the total number of peace-keeping missions now under UN aegis. UN peacekeepers in the field currently total 80,000, a figure that will rise to 90,000 with the full deployment of the operation in Somalia. Some 10,000 civilians are also serving with the various peacekeeping missions.

Apart from peacekeeping, there is a whole range of other areas where policy is being developed by the UN and new initiatives are being undertaken. The human rights area deserves particular mention. Earlier this week I addressed the World Conference on Human Rights which is being held in Vienna from 14 to 25 June. Ireland, as one of the three original co-sponsors of the resolution calling for a World Conference, played an active part in the preparatory phase and I am confident the final outcome, the Declaration of Vienna, will reflect many of the concerns which underpin our approach, including: reaffirmation of the universality of human rights as minimum standards which are the obligation of every government to safeguard; the adoption of positive measures to reinforce existing mechanisms for the protection and promotion of human rights; increased resources, including financial resources, for the UN Centre for Human Rights and the establishment of a UN High Commissioner for Human Rights; action in support of women's rights and against gender discrimination and violence against women.

The other subheads of the International Co-operation Vote essentially deal with development co-operation. The past year has seen a raising of Ireland's profile on development issues. The visit of President Robinson to Somalia has rightly been hailed as a crucial factor in directing world attention to the problems of that country. More recently, the courageous efforts of Irish agencies, such as Goal and Concern, to bring aid to the starving people of southern Sudan have been widely admired.

I am happy to say that funding for Offical Development Assistance is substantially higher in 1993 than last year. In overall cash terms it amounts to £53 million compared to £40.7 million in 1992. In GNP terms our ODA will amount to 0.2 per cent this year compared with 0.16 per last year. In reaching this target we will be delivering on the first part of the pledge contained in the programme for Government which undertook to raise ODA to 0.2 per cent in 1993 and by 0.05 per cent each year thereafter.

I am personally very satisfied that we are meeting our commitment on ODA this year and I intend to do all in my power to ensure that we continue to meet the targets set in the Programme for Government. We have a proud record in this country of helping those least able to help themselves. I believe that there is strong public support for raising the level of ODA, which had fallen in recent years. The Irish public have shown through their private donations that they have a deep concern for and solidarity with the people of the developing nations. My aim is to reflect those views by maintaining a high standard ODA programme which delivers aid effectively to those in need.

My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will describe the main features of the budget when we come to discuss the Vote for International Co-operation. Let me just say that the hallmarks of the 1993 Estimates for ODA are consolidation and modest increase. The target for the years ahead is to build up the volume of our programme steadily so as to put it on a par with those of our European partners while maintaining its quality, which has drawn praise from many quarters.

We hope to publish plans for the expansion of the ODA programme before the summer recess. It is important to have a clear picture of what we intend to do since so many aid projects have a long lead-in time and involve a multiannual commitment. I also intend that the plan should address issues such as a new advisory body on ODA, greater involvement of and co-financing with non-governmental organisations like Concern, Goal and Trócaire; a restatement of the principles which underpin our approach to ODA, and measures to improve the image of the programme and the public's knowledge of it.

I understand that this committee is to set up a sub-committee to deal specifically with development co-operation. There is considerable expertise available on ODA in both Houses of the Oireachtas and I believe that discussion in this forum will be to our mutual benefit.

Before concluding, I would like to return briefly to the Foreign Affairs Vote. At about half of 1 per cent of the Government's annual non-capital expenditure, it represents a relatively small slice of Government spending; but particularly at this time of budgetary stringency the Department is determined to ensure that the allocation is spent efficiently and efectively, with value for money a foremost consideration.

We need neither overstate nor undervalue Ireland's potential influence on world affairs. We do not carry any particular clout by virtue of our size or economic weight, but our emigrants and aid workers have brought knowledge of Ireland around the world. Our traditional stance on peacekeeping, disarmament and human rights issues has won us respect. Our EC membership means that we are now part of a grouping which is set to be increasingly influential on the world stage.

The assistance of this committee will be very important in helping to build on the legacy and confront the challenges that lie ahead. I will be very happy to answer any questions members may have on any aspects of these Vote.

I am conscious that it is a matter for you, Chairman, and the members of the committee to decide on the format, but let me make some practical suggestions which may be of help. It occurs to me that questions could be usefully grouped together in the following general categories: first, administrative budgetary issues covered in the various subheads of the Foreign Affairs Vote and, second, various policy matters that may be of interest to the committee and which may be discussed in sequence, such as Northern Ireland, the European Community and its economic aspects and international political developments. By agreement, the afternoon session will be confined solely to development co-operation.

On a point of order, that page is not included in the script.

Chairman

It can be circulated. The Tánaiste has made a practical suggestion. He has proposed that following the opening statements we divide questions in the question and answer session, which is due to commence at 11 a.m., into two categories, first, administrative budgetary matters and, second, policy matters, such as Northern Ireland, the European Community and international political developments. We will deal with these three categories of policy once we have dealt with the smaller budgetary administrative queries members of the committee may have. Is that agreed?

It is probably the best proposal in the circumstances, but we should remember that we are slicing up a very small loaf — I understand there is only one hour for all the questions.

Chairman

We have from 11 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.

Is the Minister's half hour included in that?

Chairman

Yes. Is the proposal agreed? Agreed.

The Tánaiste

I will arrange to give each member a copy of the schedule for the debate before 11 a.m.

Chairman

This is separate from this afternoon's discussion on development co-operation. I call on Deputy Owen to make her opening statement.

This is the first time the Estimate for the Department of Foreign Affairs has been dealt with in this newly formed committee. I welcome the large number of eminent officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs who are present with the Minister today. I hope their involvement in this debate will be as useful to them as it will be to us. It is very important that the staff of the Department of Foreign Affairs get an opportunity to interact with parliamentarians, an interaction which was not available prior to the setting up of this committee.

The debate on this Estimate gives us the opportunity to highlight a number of issues relating to Ireland's foreign policy and our policy on Northern ireland. I wish first to refer to Northern Ireland. During the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Foreign Affairs in June 1992, the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Andrews, said:

We must each address the fundamental issues involved with imagination, vision and, above all, courage.

He went on to say:

We will work steadily to achieve new political structures which will involve, not the domination of one tradition by another, but rather a fair and honourable accommodation between both traditions on this island. We will do all in our power to ensure that the process, which carries with it the hopes of the vast majority of people on both islands, is brought to an early and successful conclusion.

I regret to have to say that, despite the then Minister's assurances, I do not believe that the Government has shown the kind of imagination, vision and, above all, courage required to keep the talks going. There seems to be a feeling of jadedness about the Government's approach. Above all, the confusion and inconsistency between the Taoiseach and the Minister about Northern Ireland has given rise to a certain amount of scepticism that the Government is not at one on how it wishes to progress the dialogue on Northern Ireland. I can only hope that the talks with the British Prime Minister in recent days will lead to the resumption of these talks.

We recently witnessed the unseemly debacle of headlines in the newspapers proclaiming that the Taoiseach did not approve of the Minister's speech to the Irish Association on 5 March last in the Mansion House. It is important that the Taoiseach, the Minister and the Government are at one on the way in which they will approach the next stage of the talks on Northern Ireland. If they are not at one, this confusion and difference of opinion which seems to exist will cause a division in the talks. I hope the Tánaiste can assure us today that both he and the Taoiseach are now ad idem on the way they will proceed in regard to Northern Ireland. The differences between the two of them on Articles 2 and 3 and the other matters relating to these should be clarified before the talks are resumed.

I ask the Minister in his reply to explain why the amount allocated for the talks on Northern Ireland is lower this year than it was last year. It is stated in the breakdown on the Estimates that the additional amount of £220,000 in 1992 was the cost to the Department of the Northern Ireland talks. As this additional sum is not included in this year's Estimates, is one to assume that no costs will be involved in the talks this year or that it is not intended to have any talks? I should like the Minister to answer that question when he is replying to the debate.

I hope the Government will study the Opsahl Commission's report, a useful touchstone in identifying the issues of deep concern to the ordinary unheard people on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland. One of the fundamental underlying statements in the commission's report was that there was a need for both Nationalists and Unionists to acknowledge wholeheartedly the traditions which have helped to form the opinions and deeply felt emotions on both sides and that without this kind of fundamental acknowledgement, fears and prejudices would continue to exist and grow and the likelihood of using political dialogue to solve the problem would be weakened all the time. I again urge the Minister to rekindle the Government's spirit in endeavouring to bring about the necessary political dialogue so that the progress commenced in 1992 can be continued after the recent hiatus.

I wish to refer to Ireland's involvement in the Bosnian crisis. The Minister dealt with this issue at some length in his speech. I believe all right thinking Irish people want us to play our part at EC level in ensuring that peace is brought about and some semblance of normality and democracy is restored in the former Yugoslavia. The Minister indicated that Ireland still strongly supports the VanceOwen plan, but I wish to remind him that recently Lord Owen, in addressing the EC Foreign Ministers, strongly criticised the EC for its lack lustre approach to the Vance-Owen plan. I am glad the Minister has again stressed today Ireland's willingness and anxiousness to bring about a solution to the problem in Bosnia. Lord Owen went on to point out to the Foreign Ministers at their meeting in early June that they needed to do more than just give a verbal commitment to the plan, that they needed to act and work to bring the contents of the plan into reality. He also stressed that the willingness of the United States to take on the job of bringing about the peace and stability in Bosnia was not as wholehearted as it formerly was, particularly as the American public were of the opinion that it was up to Europe to look after this problem.

I should like the Minister in his reply to spell out his views on Ireland's role in this conflict over the next few months as Security Council Resolution 836, passed on 4 June, is implemented. This resolution calls on all member states to involve themselves in the protection of the safe havens and to make available whatever resources, personnel, etc. are required as members of the UN. I should like the Minister to let us know how far he thinks Ireland will involve itself in the protection of the safe havens.

Has the Minister made allowances in the Estimate for an increased involvement by Irish civilians in Bosnia? Some Irish personnel are working with the United Nations Forces in Bosnia on a civilian basis. I cannot find any indication from the breakdown on the Estimate as to whether this involvement is to be increased. If it is not to be increased, I ask the Minister to give an assurance to this House — my colleague, Deputy John Connor, will come back to this point — that the budget for overseas countries will not be dissipated by the assistance given to the former Yugoslavia. I am not saying that the former Yugoslavia does not need assistance; rather I am saying that our level of assistance to the four bilateral aid countries and other countries, particularly in Africa and Asia, should not be dissipated as a result of our efforts as part of the EC to solve the problems in the former Yugoslavia. I wish to remind the House that the per capita income of people in the former Yugoslavia is still ten-15 times greater than the income of people in Zambia, Tanzania, Sudan and Lesotho. We need to bear this in mind in the distribution of our resources.

In his speech the Minister referred to the UN and its role in Bosnia. I should like a debate to take place as soon as possible, both in this committee and in the Dáil, on the UN and its restructuring. It has now become evident that the UN, as it has existed since its foundation, cannot tackle the changes which are taking place in the world — for example, the ending of the Cold War and the demise of Communism. The role of the UN must reflect these changes. We should have some imput into this restructuring. Like many other people, I have been concerned for many years that our role in the UN is one of our representative merely being given instructions by somebody — it could be the Minister or his officials. Members of this House have never had an input into how we should vote at the UN on any issue other than on the issue of the western Sahara when as a result of representations made by Members of this House to him the then Minister for Foreign Affairs changed Ireland's vote. As I said, Members of this House do not have any input into how Ireland votes at the UN. It is very interesting to look at how Ireland votes in the UN, with whom it votes on various issues, why we abstain and why we do not take a stronger line on some of the issues which arise.

I wish to refer briefly to some of the isues in which I believe we should play a more dominant role at UN level. We should play a more dominant role in the issue of Tibet, the enormous human rights abuses taking place in that country and our relationship with the Chinese Government on Tibet. Some members of the committee recently met Mrs. Takla the representative of the Dali Lanma in Ireland, the British Isles and Scandanavia. She pointed out that Tibet did not want to see China set aside or have heavy sanctions imposed against it. Rather it wants the world powers to point out to China that the people of Tibet are entitled to self-determination and, most importantly, are entitled to live their lives without the kind of human rights abuses which are taking place in that country at present. I urge the Minister to adopt a much more fundamental and stronger position on this issue at the various international fora of which he is a member. We have shown that it is possible for Ireland to do this. We have seen the effects of the visits by our President and the former Minister for Foreign Affairs to Somalia and by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, to Africa. We should not be shy about adopting a strong position on Tibet.

There is great concern about East Timor. These may seem minor issues when compared with the enormity of the problems in the former Yugoslavia but over 200,000 people from the very low population of East Timor have been killed by the Indonesian forces. It is time the world took notice of this crisis and took action against the Indonesian Government so that it is not allowed to continue by stealth its programme of genocide in East Timor. These two areas may not seem enormously important in the normal work of the Department of Foreign Affairs but the Irish people are very concerned about them. This should be of concern to us as a small neutral non-aligned country. We should use our voice to highlight this.

I understand from my colleagues that this morning Mr. Ray MacSharry said on radio that we should continue to allow our economic involvement in the Community to grow but that we should proceed more slowly on political union. Unfortunately, I did not hear the interviews as I was on a train coming from the south. I hope the Minister for Foreign Affairs does not share that opinion.

The question of enlargement of the Community should be pushed with all seriousness. Members of this committee recently had a meeting with Swedish parliamentarians and it is clear that Sweden is very anxious to join the Community. Their involvement in the Community should help it to grow and develop. The challenges that will come with enlargement must be faced now. It is not only the poorer countries in the Community who will be looking for assistance because of their peripherality. Wealthy countries like Sweden have regional problems, for example the farmers in the Artic region will require assistance. We will have to grow up and recognise that the begging bowl will not always be filled in the way it has been filled heretofore. During yesterday's debate we dealt at length with the £8 bilion from the Structural and Cohesion Fund, I will not dwell on it in detail, except to say that this is our last chance to get resources of this magnitude from the EC. It must be remembered that when the next four countries join the EC, we will be one of the longer serving members of the Community. We must look forward to the entry of countries like Hungary, Poland and the Czech and Slovak Republics. It is felt that the sooner they are brought under the umbrella of the EC the sooner stability will be created in those countries. When one considers what has happened in the former Yugoslavia one realises the importance of giving these countries the opportunity to share the EC resources as well as its culture and traditions. This should help to overcome difficulties in those countries.

Will the Minister for Foreign Affairs give an assurance to the committee that when the time comes for our ardent football fans to see Ireland participate in the World Cup in the United States they will have no problems whatsoever in getting visas——

——irrespective of their profile?

I can give an assurance that there will be no difficulties in this country but I cannot give an assurance about the US.

We want visas for people to go to the United States. People have expressed their concern to me about young people in the age group from 18 to 25, especially those how do not have jobs. Many of our young people do not have jobs but they will save very hard to go to America to see Ireland winning the World Cup. I hope the Minister for Foreign Affairs' dialogue with the American Embassy will ensure that there will be no problems and that we will not have to raise this matter on the Adjournment and in questions next March.

This is a fairly light note to finish on but it is important to the people. I thank the Minister for Foreign Affairs for taking it up on our behalf.

Chairman

I concur with the sentiment of the Deputy's last remark.

One of the problems the Americans face is differentiating between genuine and non-genuine immigrants. One of the ways to tackle this would be to put in place a system whereby people could provide security by way of performance bonds for the return of people in this country. Young people who want to visit America may have people who would go surety for them to return.

The equivalent of bail.

Effectively it is the equivalent of bail, a performance bond that they would return. It is perfectly practicable. The Americans should do it as otherwise there is no way one can effectively differentiate between a young person who does and does not have a genuine animus reverendi to this country.

On occasions such as this it is opportune to consider the effectiveness of Irish foreign policy over the past 12 months. There is an onus on the members of this committee and on Dáil Éireann, in general, to examine critically what has happened and to highlight the inadequacies of our foreign policy as they have been borne out by our recent experiences. In this context I want to deal in particular with the collective failure of the European Community, of which Ireland is a member state, to address the situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina. That collective failure is shameful. Bosnia has witnessed genocide on an unprecedented level in post-war non-communist Europe. About 200,000 people have died in the campaign of genocide. Its status as genocide has been confirmed by the International Court of Justice. When the EC member states recognised the independence of Bosnia-Hercegovina and allowed its admission to the United Nations, it undertook, in my view, moral obligations to a member state not to permit two more powerful neighbouring states to destroy it by a war of unspeakable barbarity.

At the very least they also owed to every Muslim community scattered throughout the territory of Bosnia-Hercegovina a duty not to allow their systematic destruction and liquidation. The EC member states, including Ireland, owed every Yugoslav man the right not to be starved to death in concentration camps and every Muslim woman the right not be subject to a campaign of race rape. The Muslim people were also owed the right to defend themselves. Collectively they were entitled not to be butchered, hunted out of their homes and their towns their homes, mosques and schools burned and their entire way of life destroyed.

Moreover the Muslim people of Bosnia had the right to expect of liberal democratic and so-called Christian Europe they would not be corralled into two tiny reservations like the American Indians, with no economic or social future, no friendly neighbours and no prospects. These ghettos which are now emerging — that is what they are — are being carved out in front of our eyes. I cannot agree with the tone of what Deputy Owen and the Minister said in relation to Yugoslavia. I cannot agree with the complacency that is shown there. It is clear that what is happening in Yugoslavia is that two areas are being set aside for the Muslims to live in and they are to be ethnically cleansed from the rest of former Bosnia. They are to be corralled in this area and they have no economic prospects. They are to be the equivalent of the Gaza Strip in Western Europe. No amount of waffle or platitudes can change the fact that that is what is happening in front of our eyes in Yugoslavia.

This is the shame of the European Community and of Ireland as a member state. In the last year Ireland did not do all it could to call a halt to the process which is now reaching its inevitable and sordid conclusion. The Serbs could have been stood up against and were not. The Serbs could have been told not to go any further with the campaign because they would suffer. Instead they were told the direct opposite by a series of diplomatic surrenders and démarches. The Serbs were clearly told in unequivocal terms that as long as they continued to create a de facto situation on the ground they would, in the last analysis, be rewarded. That is happening and there is no point in codding ourselves.

The entire Owen-Vance plan is set aside and nobody should speak in terms of supporting its implementation; it is dead and there is no chance of reviving it. What is emerging is a patchwork quilt in which the Muslims will be corralled in two areas. Bosnia-Hercegovina has, for all purposes, ceased to exist. Any chances the plan had of succeeding were completely dashed by the EC in particular — and not the US — because of their habit of paying lip service to it at one level and doing nothing to bring it about on the other. The weakness of Ireland's performance in this matter has been made apparent in recent hearings of this committee. Serbian aims have always been obvious. They are now about to be achieved and in face of them the UN and the EC offered nothing except deceptions to the Muslims, platitudes and no-fly zone gestures, accompanied by humanitarian relief. So much for the new world order and human rights in Europe. The moral of the story is that human rights do not matter, that force does pay and that the winner writes history.

This history is being written in a way that the genocide, mass rape, the concentration camps, the massacres and unspeakable atrocities will be cleansed from the pages of history in the same way as the Muslim communities were cleansed from all the scattered areas in which they lived in Bosnia-Hercegovina. That is what has happened and there is no point in being complacent about it. Likewise I agree there is no point in being arch about it for its own sake or saying, from an Opposition position, that this is a matter about which something should have been done. We should be clear about what is happening in Bosnia-Hercegovina and not cod ourselves that some peace plan is about to emerge. The peace plan that is about to emerge is based on the de facto situation that the Croatian and Serbian Governments have sought to create and it is one whereby the Muslim people, in particular, are being subjected to one of the greatest barbarities that Europe has witnessed in the past 30 or 40 years.

The manifest failure of Irish foreign policy to make any impact to mobilise opinion to emphasise our view point as a small State is a matter of considerable shame to me. I hope this committee will have the effect of highlighting failures of that kind, which I consider shameful, so that they will not be repeated. This country and Community member states owe the surviving Muslims a very great apology, they also owe them a strong duty of reparation so far as that is possible because the de facto outcome of the Bosnian conflict is apparent for all those who want to see it. Now is the time for us to do something to make up to those people for what two years of diplomatic fudging has done to their destruction as a community.

There is no chance — let us be honest about this — of a war crimes tribunal being established which would have any effect in relation to that conflict. We can talk about it but where will it be established and by whom? Who will surrender its nationals to participate in it? Even if a few token victims were selected it would do nothing to restore the sense of injustice that the Muslim people must feel. That whole episode is one in which international diplomacy in the new world order and the United Nations has signally failed to vindicate the right of a member state. Let us never forget that Bosnia-Hercegovina was a member state of the UN and had an ambassador there. It was recognised by us and the other member states and we have now left it to disintegrate and left those people in what I call a human dustbin.

I feel very strongly about this issue. I realise the Minister appealed to people to approach it with a level head but I feel a deep sense of anger that diplomacy failed on this occasion. I am not criticising the Department of Foreign Affairs but the political establishments in the western powers and the art of diplomacy failed and there was a complete collapse or moral will which should subtend any new world order.

So far as the recommencement of the Northern Ireland talks is concerned, I support completely what the Minister is proposing to do. It is important that the talks process get underway as quickly as possible. The Democratic Unionist Party cannot be accorded a right of veto nor can they be allowed to impede the process of political conciliation which is so badly needed by setting down any pre-conditions. The Government is signally failing to demonstrate the sense of courage to which Deputy Owen referred earlier. It is clear that the Government is divided on the issue of Articles 2 and 3. Protestations that there is complete unity of purpose do not suffice because we read in the newspapers about a fundamental difference of emphasis. Without wishing to disparage either viewpoint unduly, the Fianna Fáil Party has not yet come to the stage where they will collectively say to the Irish public that the outcome of the talks which are about to start is that the United Kingdom will still contain Northern Ireland. If they were willing to start from that basic and obvious truth about the immediate and proximate political complexion and constitutional arrangement in this island, then many other things would fall into place.

In the talks process which took place last year an unwillingness to confront that truth led the Irish Government to a position where it would not actually put forward any positive proposals of its own for consideration because it knew that anything that had any chance of success fell outside the area of what was ideologically acceptable to the Fianna Fáil Party in the Republic. I regret I must put it in those stark terms, but the time has come for Fianna Fáil to cotton on to the realities of Northern policy and to state firmly that it accepts Northern Ireland will, for the foreseeable future, remain part of the United Kingdom. If that concession to reality is made there would be a significant chance of creating a climate of reconciliation in Northern Ireland.

Ireland needs compromise. Compromise is not ignominious, shameful or a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength. The process of compromise between nationalism and unionism is something towards which we must all work. Retrenchment of nationalism by itself is pointless and seeking to reconcile all strands of nationalism north of the Border, while at the same time not doing enough to effect a mechanism of compromise between the two main viewpoints in Northern Ireland, is futile. I am not saying that in a combative manner, but compromise is the essence of politics and a noble pursuit in Northern Ireland. If the Republic is to compromise in terms of Northern Ireland it would require a starting point of realism. The Government should at least level with the people and state that within the terms of what is realistically attainable it will pursue the interest of all the people of Ireland and protect the interests of Nationalists in Northern Ireland to the maximum. If the Government start from that stark point of realism it will receive the trust of the Unionist community and a process of compromise could get underway.

In retrospect, the failure to even mark a starting point from which Nationalist politics could be developed and the constant recitation that the Government of Ireland Act could be negotiated dogged the talks process last year and, in effect, made it rudderless and futile. I hope the next round of talks will be carried out on the basis of a solid rock of realism, that there will be a foundation of trust and that the people, in particular those in the South, will be told the truth by their politicians. I hope they are told what can and cannot be achieved and within that context led forward on the road to compromise.

Every politician in the South who speaks about resolution of the conflict in Northern Ireland does so on the basis that it will entail compromise and that nobody should be impugned, condemned or exposed to vilification south of the Border because he or she has the honesty and courage to say that if there is no compromise with unionism there is no future for peace on this island.

The point made by the Tánaiste in regard to minimalists and maximalists is useful. I do not know in which category he would put me, but I am certainly not a minimalist.

In both categories sometimes.

Whatever position the Government adopts on international affairs must be based on a principled approach to the questions of human rights internationally and the security of borders in existing states which should only be changed with the agreement, not only of those who live in those states but those who live adjacent to them. We must approach the new world developments from the point of view that the United Nations is our only hope of ensuring some kind of order. In that regard I hope the Government, through the Tánaiste, will take a strong position on the reform of the United Nations.

Many issues could be dealt with here today, but there are two immediate challenges facing this country in the area of foreign affairs, first, the continuing violence in Northern Ireland and the need to promote peace and progress there and, second, the manner in which we should respond to calls from the United Nations for military intervention in world trouble spots, such as Somalia and Bosnia. The anguish and frustration felt by people here about poverty and famine in Somalia and the appalling brutality in the former Yugoslavia is understandable.

However, the implications of the move to amend the Defence Act to allow our troops to participate in what has become known as peace enforcement or, more subtly, peace making operations rather than in a peacekeeping role has not been fully considered. Like most, if not all, Irish people I am proud of the role Irish troops have played in the United Nations peacekeeping operations and they should continue to help to keep the peace in troubled areas of the world. However, I am concerned that if we rush into peace enforcement operations without first securing structural changes in the United Nations, Irish troops could be forced into the role of pawns for some of the big powers. They could be plunged into the difficult circumstances and exposed to the risk of severe casualties simply to serve the self interests of big powers rather than the cause of peace. For example, the points made in regard to Yugoslavia are instructive. For its own reasons, the United States finds it easy to use its troops and gunships in Somalia but extremely difficult to make a decision in regard to the former Yugoslavia. I am not arguing for or against either case, but that highlights the fact that domestic self-interest applies when the big powers become involved in peace operations, whether peace enforcement or peacekeeping operations.

Another equally important point is that peacekeeping is a legitimate role for the Irish State to adopt and it should confine itself to that role. We are a small country with a small defence force. No sustainable case has been made for altering fundamentally the role the Irish Defence Forces have played since we first became involved in peacekeeping operations in the 1950s. The Tánaiste certainly did not make a case for that this morning. He stated that such a change would demonstrate concrete support for the United Nations but Ireland has demonstrated that beyond question in its peacekeeping role during the war in Iraq, although I steadfastly opposed the facilities we provided for refuelling US planes at Shannon. I do not believe anyone could claim we have not demonstrated our support for the United Nations and the point put forward by the Tánaiste is not a valid argument for changing the role of our Defence Forces. What should be emphasised even more strongly is the point made in regard to strengthening our case for the protection of aid workers, Again, I believe that peacekeeping does not prevent UN forces from protecting aid workers. The question of enforcement is a different concept and I argue that we must give a lot more consideration to this whole question.

The Minister has indicated that this will be the subject of a full debate in the House before any changes are made. The schedule of business for next week includes midnight sittings and one hour set aside for some Bills. Given the expectation that the week after next may be the last week the Dáil sits, I cannot see how we can have a full debate although I would welcome it.

My concern has been greatly intensified by recent events in Somalia within the past few weeks and, indeed, in the past 24 hours which have demonstrated the difficulties in trying to carry out what is essentially a vague and ill-defined peace enforcement mandate. Two weeks ago, 23 Pakistani soldiers serving with the United Nations were killed by one of the local gangs, and a week later the Pakistani troops apparently took their revenge on the local population by shooting dead more than 20 unarmed demonstraters. I am appalled at the idea of United Nations troops acting in the name of the world community by shooting civilians dead. I am not convinced by the excuses offered on behalf of the Pakistani troops which seems to have been the classic response of the military in every country where they are accused of using excessive force. Justification of the mass killing of civilians while claiming that they were providing cover for gunmen is an excuse not unfamiliar to anyone who remembers the events of Bloody Sunday in Derry in January 1972. Do we really want to place Irish troops in a position where they may be asked to carry out a peace enforcement mandate while coming into conflict with unarmed civilians? A proposed change in the Defence Act is not just for Somalia but will enable the Irish Government to agree to Irish troops being engaged in any number of military actions anywhere in the world. A motion of approval by the Dáil will still be necessary, but the decision will effectively rest with the Government which has the majority in the Dáil.

This is, primarily, a foreign policy issue and not a defence or military matter. When I raised the matter during the debate on the Defence Estimate over a month ago the Minister for Defence told me that a full discussion document would be produced before any final decision was made to amend the Defence Act. The legislation has now been produced and, I understand, will be coming before the Dáil the week after next, but there is still no sign of any discussion document being produced by either the Minister for Defence or, indeed, by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. There would be immense problems in being involved in any UN military operation in Somalia and, until such time as the mandate of the UN forces is clearly defined and a proper chain of command established to ensure that the operation is under the genuine control and authority of the Secretary General, we should not send troops to Somalia. If Irish troops are to go it should only be as peacekeepers and with the right to defend themselves and the civilian population. My concern has been heightened by an interview I heard this morning on "Morning Ireland" with President Clinton in which he seemed to be speaking on behalf of the UN, he seemed to imply that the United Nations and the United States were synonymous and said he was very pleased that the United States, with other countries such as Ireland, were there in a "confluence of interest," in support of the establishment of democracy, human rights and market economics. I do not know whether that is the purpose of Irish troops going to Somalia.

They could start here.

Deputy McDowell wants them to start here. I am not making a point about market economics. I am making the point that the United Nations role is not the establishment of any particular form of economics in any country in the world. I just wonder where we are going. Why did Boutros Boutros-Ghali not make the statements this morning on behalf of the United Nations? We must address these questions. Too often military operations, theoretically launched in the name of the United Nations, are simply sub-contracted to some of the larger military powers. The Gulf War was not a peace enforcement operation. It was theoretically launched as a result of UN resolutions but all the decisions were taken by the US military and their allies. People will, I am sure, remember the then Secretary General of the United Nations admitting that the first he knew of the massive air strikes launched against Iraq, allegedly in the name of the United Nations, was when he heard about them on the television.

Ireland should be to the fore in pressing for changes in the structure of the United Nations which date from the Cold War and which concentrates virtually all the power in the hands of a small number of countries which are the permanent members of the Security Council. The membership of the Security Council was determined by the Second World War. What relevance does this have today? Why should all five permanent members be drawn from the northern hemisphere? The United Nations must be remoulded to make it genuinely representative of the international community and to ensure that it is not simply there to serve the needs of a handful of larger or economically powerful states.

I also welcome the contribution which the Tánaiste made during the week to the Conference on Human Rights under the auspices of the United Nations in Vienna. That is an area in which the United Nations can play a key role. It is fundamental to any hope that we can have a peaceful world in the future. When we are talking about human rights we must recognise that it is not just a question of political rights, it is a question of economic rights, a question of the right to be free from poverty just as much as a right to be free from political oppression.

In relation to the remarks made or about to be made by the former Commissioner, Mr. Ray MacSharry that the European Community should now concentrate on developing the Single Market and abandon any role in trying to develop a common security policy, I believe — and this may surprise some people who misunderstand my position in relation to the EC — that would be a disaster. The European Community has a very significant role to play in the development of a world security system. What I have argued consistently in relation to Ireland's position is that we should get stuck in there and argue for a particular kind of security system at EC and world level using, for example, the CSCE as the regional organisation which could help to bring together all the different actors on the European stage in the area of security. It would be a step backwards for the European Community to abandon its role in world security by abandoning its own role in attempting to create a European system of common foreign and security policy.

I have to strike a discordant note at this stage in regard to the CSCE. I recently got a letter from my party Whip, from the inter-parliamentary association of this House looking for a nomination to attend the Helsinki Assembly of the CSCE. I was surprised that it came from the inter-parliamentary association and not from the foreign affairs committee. When I inquired why the committee on foreign affairs could not deal with it I was told that it was off the record and that the four Fianna Fáil and the two Fine Gael Deputies who were going would prefer it to remain in the inter-parliamentary association and that it was "hands off" as far as the foreign affairs committee was concerned. I do not want to make an issue of who is going. I want to make it clear that I am not available to go, lest anyone thinks otherwise. However, there should be a wider representation and a report should be made to the committee on foreign affairs about what transpires there. In future representatives of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs should attend meetings like those held in Helsinki.

I want to refer briefly to Northern Ireland. I thought that after the local elections progress might have been faster in relation to the talks process. Unfortunately, it appears the elections have hardened the position. The Hume-Adams talks also helped to harden attitudes. It is regrettable that the Government appears to be unwilling to criticise the role of John Hume in his talks with Gerry Adams. It is deplorable that the Leader of the SDLP continues an ongoing process of talks with Gerry Adams which lends legitimacy to the political organisation which is closely associated with the Provisional IRA who, on a daily basis, slaughter people on this island and elsewhere. Other Deputies in this Hosue may privately agree with my view and I hope that is the case. We must make it clear that whatever about a political compromise with political groups in Northern Ireland there can be no compromise with terrorism or with terrorist gangs.

Chairman

We will now move to general questions on Vote 38. This part of the debate will be structured on the basis of dealing with questions on the Estimates on the Department of Foreign Affairs. Following questions on the Vote we will then proceed to questions relating to policy areas in regard to Northern Ireland, the European Community and general international political developments.

Will the Tánaiste indicate how advanced the proposals are to improve and expedite the issuing of passports and if there is an increased allocation in the Estimates to provide for an improved computerised system in the Passport Office? I commend the staff in the Passport Office for their courtesy and co-operation in dealing with passports even though they work under great pressure and have to cope with large numbers of irate customers. The long delays in the Passport Office are unacceptable. Yesterday I visited it and met an elderly lady who had started queuing there at 8 o'clock in the morning and was still in the office at 4.20 p.m. The woman was fatigued and distressed. Such a service is unacceptable especially when it is profitmaking. Will the Tánaiste consider providing for the issue of passports through county motor taxation offices or, at a minimum, to regionalise the service? People from Kerry or Tipperary should not have to travel to Dublin for a passport.

They do not have to travel.

An office to deal with the processing of passports should be provided in the regions. I also ask the Tánaiste to improve the telephone service in the Passport Office. The passport officer stated that many people making inquiries do not need to queue, but they do so because they cannot communicate with the office as the telephone lines are constantly busy. When people have a query they have to travel by car or train to Dublin to make a personal appeal about their passports. Will the Tanáiste indicate what plans he has to improve the telephone service and if he will consider decentralising the provision of the service to the regions?

The Tánaiste referred to establishing missions abroad. Have any decisions been made in regard to establishing new missions abroad or reducing the present numbers?

While I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts I always asked the Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs if there was an economic return to the country in respect of the Department's expenditure. This year the Department received £40.417 million, is there an economic return in regard to this expenditure?

Apart from myself.

Administrative and technical matters also have political implications. I wish to ask a question which I raised by way of parliamentary question last year. Will the Tánaiste indicate if the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Passport Office have statistics on the number of people in Norhern Ireland who hold an Irish passport? The reply I received to that question a year ago stated that no such statistics were available. It is extraordinary, considering that the Irish Government is involved in negotiations with the British Government in relation to Northern Ireland and on behalf of people in Northern Ireland, that we are not aware how many people in Northern Ireland hold an Irish passport. The second part of the question I tabled related to how many people in Northern Ireland hold a dual passport. Has the Passport Office put in place any arrangements for establishing such information?

Will the Tánaiste indicate if any consideration has been given to transferring the consulate in San Francisco to Los Angeles where 1.7 million Irish people live? The consulate has been located in San Francisco for a number of years and the Irish population there is approximately 400,000. I support Deputy Lowry's comments in regard to the Passport Office. The staff must be commended for their work. I noted the Tanáiste nodding his head in agreement with Deputy's Lowry's suggestion that facilities should be provided to issue passports in other parts of the country.

Under subhead A.3. and A.4. is the Tánaiste aware that the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, announced there would be a rebalancing of costs in respect of telephone charges in that the costs of telephone calls abroad would be cheaper? In that case why is the budget in respect of telephone costs increased this year? Why is the allocation of £986,000 increased to £1.030 million? Why is there not a saving to the Department in that regard? Under A.4. is the Tánaiste not aware that the costs of the local calls will be increased? I assume his Department's telephone bill will also be increased. Why has he made a smaller provision this year for postal and telecommunications services headquarters costs? There is a reduction of £5,000 in this regard. Will he indicate whether he intends to introduce a freefone service is his Department when telephone charges are increased so that members of the public will not have to listen to music or perhaps something in French or German when holding on? It seems ironic that in the area of telephone costs where there will be a reduction the allocation has been increased and in areas where there will be an increase the allocation has been reduced. Will the Tánaiste clarify that anomaly?

Under Subhead A.6., official premises expenses in regard to item 4, rent, rates etc. have increased by more than £1 million. The explanation for this increase appears to be the leasing and fitting out of the new Ireland House in New York which will house the consulate and the offices of various semi-State agencies. Will the Tánaiste give details for this increase? For example, what will happen to the building we have been using for our consulate? Will the semi-State agencies cover some of the costs of establishing this new Ireland House? I realise we must improve the emphasis on the semi-State agencies in the United States to create employment and seek new industries for Ireland but it represents a very high increase in costs. Were there savings and will we recoup money under this heading from other semi-State agencies?

I wish to ask two questions relating the Administration. In subhead A.1. the breakdown of staff is shown in terms of civil servants, diplomatic grades, etc. How many of the staff of the Department deal with European institutions? To what extent is our foreign service involved in working with EC institutions? How many foreign based staff deal with other international affairs? Also, in relation to A.6. which Deputy Owen mentioned, I welcome the fact that the diplomatic representation and the representation by State and semi-State agencies are operated from one location. Projecting an image of Ireland in that united way can only serve us well. Are there plans for this concept to be extended to other parts of the United States, various European countries, Australia or the United Kingdom? This should be done if possible.

In relation to the activities of our embassies or consuls overseas has the Minister or his Department ever carried out an audit of the activities of the various embassies or consuls? I am not being critical of them but it may engender a little competition among them. Some of those embassies are extremely active in promoting Ireland and Irish goods and services and it is important to encourage that. I do not wish to single out any one in particular lest I cause offence but I am sure the Tánaiste is well aware that some embassies are adept at promoting Ireland and are recognised generally in the countries in which they are located for doing so. The generation of a little healthy competition among the various embassies would be beneficial. I emphasise this at a time when it is imperative that every opportunity is taken to promote this country as a tourist base, to promote its exports and, in general, the good name of Ireland abroad.

I regret that in subhead C., provision for Irish emigrant groups abroad has been reduced by £2,000, 2 per cent, in the current year. In the light of the bishops' statement in Maynooth recently regarding the difficulties faced by our emigrants which they see as an ever-increasing problem, particularly in the United States due to the economic downturn there and, indeed, in the United Kingdom which is not mentioned, perhaps the Minister might comment and take on board our suggestion that this area should be in receipt of a larger amount of money. I have had contact with Catholic charities in New York and other Irish welfare organisations in the United States who carry out an extraordinary amount of work but we do not give them sufficient support.

In relation to the repatriation and maintenance of distressed Irish persons abroad, there is an increase in spending in this area. Perhaps the Minister might indicate how that Vote operates. What does the repatriation of distressed Irish persons mean?

If the Deputy is mugged he will find out.

In regard to support for Irish emigrant groups in the United States, I see from the Vote's explanatory note that there will be an increase under this subhead to £150,000 in 1993. I am aware that the Tánaiste, during one of his recent visits to the United States, availed of the opportunity, as all Ministers do——

My one visit.

——during his one visit to the United States to make an announcement. I see there are to be savings from subhead A.6., which is the subhead I mentioned in regard to the increased budget. Will the Tánaiste explain where these savings will be made?

I remind the Tánaiste that I asked about the Vote for the Northern Ireland talks which was reduced by £220,000. I hope he will reply. In Vote I. under Appropriations-in-Aid, there is a headline "Miscellaneous", £240,000. Will the Tánaiste tell us what that is for? The other figures in that Vote are quite small but this is a large figure. Could we have further clarification of that? Is it for telephone calls? It is very vague and I would like to know what it represents.

I hope to be as open as possible and give as much information as I can. Given the detail required, if by chance I do not cover everything in this reply, I will return to it.

I will begin my comments with "Miscellaneous". Items under this heading include VAT refunds received by missions abroad, receipts from the sales of vehicles, refunds of car loans to a small number of officers in hardship posts, bank interest, profit on exchange transactions, rental refunds from bodies such as semi-State agencies who share properties leased by our missions, refunds on transactions from a previouis year, for example, the return in January of an unused air ticket bought in December, refunds by officers of security deposits on homes rented abroad. This represents a total of £240,000.

I will have to read the Official Report to obtain all that information.

Deputy Lowry and Deputy Briscoe raised the question of the Passport Office. I answered questions recently on the Adjournment Debate in this regard. The staff in the Passport Office, which I visited at an early stage on taking office — I met some of them as late as last night — do tremendous work under pressure. I am conscious of that and it is a problem I wish to eliminate. Between 1987 and 1991 the demand for passports was reasonably stable, approximately 160,000. In 1992 there was an increase in demand of almost 20 per cent. This year, in May alone, there was an increase in demand of 10 per cent. We are doing everything possible in terms of additional staff. We are examining the question of a new premises and a new telephone system is being installed because of the pressure on the telephones. I would like the public to understand that it is much easier to apply for passports by post. During the winter we reduced the price of passports to encourage people to obtain their passports during the low season. That was relatively successful. We have run advertising campaigns in relation to people obtaining passports by post. It is a problem and we are doing everything possible to address it.

What about regional offices?

We are examiniong the question of regional offices and we will ensure that the office in Cork is upgraded to a full regional office for the Munster area. That will take much pressure off the office in Dublin. We are also examining the question of computerisation. In fact, we are well advanced in the computerisation programme which will give us information in relation to Deputy De Rossa's question concerning the point of origin of the applicant. That information is not available at present but will be available when the computerisation programme is completed in relation to Northern Ireland and the south.

In relation to missions abroad, raised by Deputy O'Hanlon, a new embassy will be opened in Helsinki, Finland, this month. The Government decided that an embassy should open in South Africa at a time judged by the Minister for Foreign Affairs to be politically appropriate, that matter is under consideration. There are also other priorities; Norway would become a priority in the context of Western Europe and South East Asia should be considered for many reasons. Our presence there is limited to an ABT office in Singapore, which is inadequate. In Eastern Europe we have resident missions only in Russia and Warsaw. There are ABT offices in both countries as well as in Hungary and the Czech Republic. That area deserves consideration but obviously the question of available resources at any given time must be taken into account.

Deputy Briscoe raised the question of moving the consulate in San Francisco to Los Angeles. The location of consulates is under ongoing review. We are in close contact with semi-State bodies in terms of their locations and needs. On the Deputy's suggestion I will consider that matter. Deputy Connor asked whether there is an economic return on our missions. As I said in my introductory remarks, this question is difficult to quantify. One must consider the raison d’�treof the foreign service. I am very conscious that diplomacy and commercial areas must be considered. The foreign service has a very important role to play in assisting representative Irish semi-State agencies and companies who go abroad on trade missions and look for markets. There is a very sharp instinct in the Department in that respect and one which I encourage.

The concept of Ireland House, of which I am very supportive was referred to by Deputy Owen and Deputy Gallagher. I raised this matter in the House many times down the years. It is a concept that should be encouraged. There will be a saving on the projected cost of Ireland House. It will be a flagship premises and we are trying to ensure that the move takes place as economicaly as possible. We made a good rental deal on the new premises and the whole project is well within budget. Unfortunately, there are some costs to be met as a result of penalty clauses in relation to existing leases. I had discussions with the consultate in New York and one can only be pleased with the progress made on this project.

Will the Minister give an indication of the savings?

I may have that information shortly. In regard to Deputy Gallagher's question on representation dealing with European affairs, there are 32 diplomats in the Permanent Representative in Brussels and 17 in the EC division at home. Obviously ongoing demands of Europe put a serious strain on departmental resources. This is a very important focus for us as we have to be well represented.

Deputy Durkan raised the relevant question of an audit. An inspection unit was established in the Department in September 1992. This came about basically in response to a developing sense within the Department that some structure was required to ensure systematic and ongoing examination of the general functioning of missions. The aims of the inspection unit are to examine on an ongoing basis the functioning of missions in terms of the Department's current requirements, to ensure headquarters is aware of the needs of missions in carrying out their functions and to assist the Department in prioritising current allocation of its limited resources. It is intended that the unit will visit all our 40 missions on a recurring four year cycle. The unit began a series of visits in December 1992 and in a period of seven months, to the end of June 1993, it visited six missions — the Hague, Luxembourg, Vienna, the permanent mission to the UN in Geneva, the permanent mission to the UN in New York and London. Each visit entails a detailed examination of the allocation and use of financial and staff resources at the missions and general administration, including keeping mission accounts. Procedures for dealing with consular work and passports are also scrutinised. In advance of the visit both headquarters and the mission itself carry out a detailed survey of their relationship and interaction. This is a very important aspect of the work of the Department.

Deputy Connor raised the question of support for Irish emigrant groups. This is a very important aspect of the Department's budget. The allocations in 1990-92 are as follows: in 1990, £200,000; in 1991, £200,000; in 1992 there was a reduction to £50,000. The initial allocation in the budget this year was £50,000 but as a result of pressure from emigrant welfare groups an additional £100,000 was allocated to emigrant groups in the United States — that money arises from the saving on Ireland House. These groups do tremendous work for Irish emigrants throughout the United States and the United Kingdom and they deserve our credit.

Does the importance now placed on Ireland House diminish the work of other outreach organisations in the United States such as Catholic charities which received money from the Department of Foreign Affairs for their activities and still request further funding?

Ireland House has no implications whatever in relation to the provision of funds for emigrant groups. It is a totally separate matter and will remain so. As I said, these groups play a very important role in helping our emigrants.

On the question of telephone charges raised by Deputy Owen, she will appreciate that the Estimates were in place before the announcement of the restructuring of telephone costs. Obviously there will be swings and roundabouts in terms of gains and losses. Overseas telephone calls will be cheaper and we will have to consider adjusting the subhead as the effects become clear later this year.

Chairman

That completes questions on the technical aspects of Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs. We will now deal with the policy areas, the first of which relates to Northern Ireland.

I omitted to answer the question on repatriation of distressed Irish citizens abroad. This money is provided to assist Irish citizens in distress abroad to return to their place of residence, generally Ireland. The allocation takes two forms: advances of funds are made against counterpart funds lodged by a nominee in Ireland, generally a relative or friend, and repatriation at State expense in cases where a citizen is destitute and has no access to funds. The amount of involved is £75,000.

Is there any estimate of the number of people who have to avail of that assistance in any one year?

Yes. In 1992, funds were advanced to 250 persons.

Perhaps the Minister thought I was being frivolous but he did not answer any question on discrepancies in the telephone budget. The budget has been increased for overseas calls which are to be reduced in September.

The Minister just answered that question.

I would never accuse the Deputy of being frivolous.

I am sorry, I must have been getting ready for the next round of questions when the Minister replied.

The Deputy was distracted while I was answering.

Chairman

We will now deal with Northern Ireland queries.

I referred in my opening remarks to the ongoing talks between Mr. John Hume and Mr. Gerry Adams. will the Minister indicate whether he is prepared to call on John Hume to end these talks given that their clear effect to date has been a strengthening of the electoral position of Provisional Sinn Féin as witnessed in the recent local elections and a hardening of position on the Loyalist side? I put it to the Minister that as long as that pussy-footing continues with Sinn Féin and its allies in the Provisional IRA it will be impossible for talks to get under way in Northern Ireland and to bring all the constitutional parties round the table. In addition, will the Tánaiste indicate what precisely is meant by signals that have been given that the Democratic Unionist Party will not be allowed to exercise a veto on talks on Northern Ireland and the suggestion by the Taoiseach in his post-summit press conference that while the three-stranded approach to talks in Northern Ireland will continue it permits changes within that to take place? Is what is being considered a move towards bilateral discussions?

I do not agree with Deputy De Rossa about the Hume/Adams talks. I have implicit confidence in John Hume and his judgment about these talks. Like other Members of the House I would like to see the talks resume. I fully agree with the Government in not dealing with constitutional issues such as Articles 2 and 3 in isolation from the talks generally. I would like to see the talks continuing and all parties participating in them. We should look first at issues on which there should be agreement. There are many examples of cross Border co-operation in economics and in relation to social services. Everyone would benefit if all the parties sat down and addressed issues on which there is agreement first and left the more difficult constitutional issues until later.

Is there any hope that some of the cross Border roads will be reopened? I do not have to tell the House of the economic devastation of towns such as Clones and Belturbet and of the inconvenience caused to many people on both sides of the Border by the permanent vehicle check-points and closed Border roads. Like other Members of the House I recognise that in areas like south Fermanagh the Unionist population are fearful. I accept that and we obviously must take account of it. Nonetheless there is no justification for the number of roads that are closed and the number of permanent vehicle check-points, for instance the closure of the permanent vehicle check-point at Newry at Cloughhoge which caused a lot of inconvenience. Indeed, a school had to be closed and transferred three or four miles away into the town. In that instance the population is Nationalist on both sides of the Border and there is no justification for the check-point there.

Mobile units are a much better approach to security than the permanent check-point. Anyone who intends to take contraband across any Border is highly unlikely to take it through a permanent check-point.

My question has been asked by Deputy De Rossa. I would like as comprehensive as possible a statement from the Tánaiste on the outcome of the summit in which the hope was expressed that the talks would recommence? The Tánaiste's paragraph on Northern Ireland was very small.

The Tánaiste said he wanted to underline the importance of an early resumption of talks on Northern Ireland. I encourage the Tánaiste in this area and I hope his expectations are realised.

We need to examine the problem in more detail because there is a growing concern that the process is running out of steam or may have already run out of steam. That is a huge worry to over 90 per cent of the people here who want peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. Will the Tánaiste give us an update on how he see things? What has become of the Mayhew proposal, the UK blueprint which was talked about three months ago? It seems to have disappeared. After a short period the word "blueprint" was dropped and there was a reference to new UK proposals, but nothing has emerged. There is a sense of frustration among those who want progress. If it is not possible to get the talks restarted what are the options? Can we say specifically, not just to the gunmen but to political extremists who are not prepared to sit down and implement the will of the people to discuss a fair settlement, that they cannot hold up progress forever? Have the Tánaiste and the Government considered what kind of initiative might be taken if the talks progress cannot be restarted? We all want to see a further effort to ensure that peace and reconciliation is achieved on a basis satisfactory to all the traditions on the island. We cannot be held to ransom by those who continue to say "no".

Like Deputy O'Keeffe I have long been of the opinion that the ship of peace is well and truly becalmed. Despite all the genuine aspirations to achieve something in that area there is little progress to report. To what extent are efforts being made to identify the detail? We all know the general principles of objections but what about the detail with regard to some of the areas in which there might be a possibility of achieving some common ground? We should make an attempt to home in on the Unionist side in an effort to identify to what extent we can find common ground. There is no sense in deluding ourselves or the public. We must have something positive to enable us to move forward. When the Brooke talks started, it was a noble and brave gesture to improve the situation. However, the move forward has stopped. While we can all say we must try again and again to achieve progress, saying it is not enough. We have to pursue the aim vigorously. If one means is not successful we must find another. We must find a way to talk to and identify with the people who are not well disposed to our views. We need to start doing it as opposed to saying it.

In an address by the Minister some time ago to the British-Irish Association meeting in Oxford he stressed the importance of building the economic links between the two parts of this island, particularly since, in a single market, as a single island, we must compete as a peripheral area with the more central areas of the European Community. I should like some elaboration and additional information on what concrete measures are being undertaken and proposed to further that aim.

I should like to refer back to subhead F. — North-South and Anglo-Irish Co-operation. I agree with Deputy O'Hanlon on the importance of encouraging practical co-operation. For a number of years I was involved in many efforts to encourage co-operation in the education and training of young people from my area and from parts of west and north Belfast. In that endeavour we received a lot of help from the International Fund for Ireland and agencies such as the Youth Exchange Bureau in the South. Indeed I compliment such bodies on their efforts to encourage contact and interaction between people on both sides of Border, on a human, everyday level. I should like some additional information on grants allocated to various bodies under that subhead. Indeed I should like to be given a prognosis of the medium and long term position in regard to the International Fund for Ireland. Certainly those who dealt with that fund have found it to be quite flexible in its operation. It was my experience that it was much less bureaucratic in its operations than some of our State and semi-State agencies who administered funds and supports. How will that fund continue in future?

I have three questions to pose to the Minister. Since the Minister was a member of the New Ireland Forum and of the British-Irish Parliamentary Association he has been involved in the overall Northern Ireland question. One example of what terrorists will claim has been and continues to be a success from their point of view is that the electricity interconnector is permanently out of commission. Is there a Government view on this or has the matter been raised in his talks with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? Is it not a fact that terrorists, particularly the IRA, claim that they now hold both powers to ransom by virtue of the fact that both powers are unable to recommission this interconnector?

Second, one of the sensitive issues raised at the security meetings of the British-Irish Parliamentary Association was that of the accompaniment of patrols. Examples were given of the Army and RUC not having operated such patrols together. Has there been an improvement in that position? Furthermore, did the Minister raise this matter in talks and is he actively ensuring that the letter of the law is fully implemented in that respect?

Third, will the Minister say how effective he considers the work of bodies such as Co-Operation North? For example, does he actively encourage that organisation in its work? Does he consider it to be effective and of value?

I fully concur with the sentiments expressed by Deputy O'Hanlon, particularly on the overall matter of the closure of Border roads, which affects Sligo-Leitrim more than many other constituencies in that not one Border road between Leitrim and Fermanagh is open. This has had disastrous consequences for local communities and has kept local people apart. In County Leitrim for example, farmers must now travel a round trip of 35 miles to a field which they could have reached by travelling two or three miles 20 years ago. The local economies of Border regions have been wrecked. Kiltyclogher in County Leitrim, which was once a thriving market town is now a ghost town, because of the closure of Border roads. I know that the Minister and his Department have been making representations to the British authorities on this matter. It should be pointed out that the closure of these roads is not really a security measure, that there is no justification for so doing, because in terms of security the paramilitaries can still cross the Border at will. The closure of such roads would appear to be done to penalise the local Nationalist community. I am strongly of the view that walls of steel and concrete do not help the peace process. I appeal to the Minister to make every effort to have as many Border roads as possible open.

I raise simply on a point of order in relation to our timetable. According to it, the Minister will respond at 12 noon. Having responded to the questions on Northern Ireland, will a second round of questions be permitted?

Chairman

That is the idea. I will now call on the Minister to reply to the questions on Northern Ireland.

Like other Members, I look forward to hearing some really cutting-edged action by the Minister in getting these talks on Northern Ireland under way again. Will the Minister say whether — allied to the political progress that must be made in the North — he accepts that a number of other initiatives can be taken to improve the overall position and co-operation between North and South? I wonder that type of overseeing or supervisory role the Minister has vis-�-visother Government Departments dealing with bodies in Northern Ireland, the IDB or cultural, educational or sporting organisations. Is there a cohesive plan to ensure that all this co-operation leads somewhere and improves relationships between the people of the North and South because, very often, people’s relationships are lost in this process?

Will the Minister say, for example, what involvement he has with the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications overseeing and-or ensuring that something such as the upgrading of the Belfast rail link is proceeded with as a matter of urgency to ensure there are no physical gaps between us. Like Deputy Enda Kenny, I should like to know whether there has been an improvement in the security arrangements so that when that Belfast rail link is properly upgraded, when the electricity interconnector is recommissioned, when the natural gas link has been connected with Scotland to Ireland and to the North, proper security measures will be in place to ensure that the IRA do not do their fiendish best to break those links.

Within the terms of the Northern Ireland generality and the question of resumption of talks, I have made it very clear from the Government's point of view — and it was very clear in the Programme for Government — that the whole question of Northern Ireland is a priority of this Government. In recent months I have done everything possible to try to indicate to those who ultimately must come to the table that the Government is prepared to work with our constitutional colleagues in Northern Ireland to make advances in a very difficult and complex situation.

Unfortunately, there has been disappointment. I think everybody realised, in the context of the local elections in Northern Ireland, there would not be much progress beforehand. The local elections in Northern Ireland have come and gone; we had a meeting of the Inter-Governmental Conference after the local elections and the Summit in London last week. Both Governments committed themselves, at Prime Ministerial level, to do everything possible to get the talks resumed.

It has been a matter of personal disappointment to me that the signals emerging from the Democratic Unionist Party, for example, seem to be that they are not prepared to get involved in talks. I have been accused of lecturing to them in relation to their political responsibilities. They have political responsibilities, like all elected politicians on this island. I appeal to them again to reconsider their position in the interests of the people they represent because ultimately the burden of what is happening on this island is borne by ordinary people who live with the continuing violence.

Deputy De Rossa asked me about John Hume's involvement in talks with Gerry Adams. I have stated my view, I stated twice in this House that I trust John Hume's judgment. I assume that John Hume has overriding principle, as he has demonstrated over the past 25 years, of wanting peace in Northern Ireland, of wanting conflict resolved in a peaceful manner.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is continuing his round of bilateral talks with the constitutional parties. We will continue our discussions and at this stage we are hopeful that the talks will resume in the autumn. Some members of the committee said that the ship of State is becalmed and Deputies Durkan and O'Keeffe expressed frustration. There is a sense of frustration and this will continue as long as the conflict lasts. Before I assumed day-to-day responsibility for Northern Ireland affairs I felt that this was a complex problem. Regrettably, the more one reads about and studies Northern Ireland the more complex it becomes. It has been a deep-seated and entrenched problem over many centuries.

As Deputy McDowell said, there is a need for people to compromise. There is no difficulty with 90 per cent of the people involved because they are reasonable people. We must be prepared to compromise and shed the baggage of history. Generosity is a word that has been used. Of course we have to be generous. The Opsahl report is a very good publication and we should all read and study it. It contains good views and the opinions of 3,000 people who are affected daily by this conflict. We will do everything possible to see if the talks can be resumed because, ultimately, we will have to solve political problems by way of dialogue between the constitutional parties.

Deputies O'Hanlon and Bree raised the question of cross-Border roads. Indeed, they have raised this issue with me on many occasions. I am well aware of the effect this has on communities on both sides of the Border. I am fully aware of the problem and I have raised it at all the conferences I have attended. A new study is being undertaken to have both Governments focus attention on the problem. I hope this will lead to an improvement as the present position is totally unacceptable. It is not a matter for me to comment on the security aspects, that is a matter for the Minister for Justice who participates at the Anglo-Irish Conference when security issues are discussed.

Deputy Gallagher mentioned the International Fund for Ireland. I am grateful to him for his comments. That fund has done some tremendous work and supported very good cross-Border projects. Deputy Gallagher also asked about the prognosis. We have an excellent chairman in Willie McCarter and a very active board, the Government appreciate the work being done and the generous contributions by the international community. The administration in the United States has again indicated its positive support for these projects.

Co-operation North was founded in 1979 with the aim of increasing trade and industry between North and South as well as improving social, cultural and a broad range of other links. Recently I had a meeting with its chief executive. I will continue to support bodies such as Co-operation North because they participate in a positive way. Deputy O'Hanlon, apart from raising political matters, mentioned social, cultural and economic issues. I am doing everything possible to encourage positive action in each of these areas.

Other groups are also involved. In 1993, grants totalling £55,000 will be paid to the International Fund for Ireland: £20,000 to Anglo-Irish Encounter; £20,000 to Co-operation North; £10,000 to BETWEEN; £6,000 to the Irish School of Ecumenics; £3,400 to the Northern Ireland Children's Holidays Scheme and £600 to Children's Community Holidays. Each of these groups is participating in breaking down barriers which have existed, unfortunately, for many centuries. I will encourage anything in the areas of trade, social and cultural relations that will lead to an improvement in dialogue between people North and South. For far too long people in the South did not look North while people in the North did not look South. We have to move away from this position. Opportunities are available in the context of trade and business. The business community North and South, who for many years did not seek out market opportunities in either the North or South, are now focusing strongly on the prospects of increasing trade in both directions.

The question of accompaniment was raised by Deputy Kenny. I am well aware of the declaration in the Hillsborough Agreement in this regard. The British Government is trying to reach the point where there is full accompaniment but it has not yet satisfied us on that point. We will continue to raise this issue at every Anglo-Irish Conference because the aim is to have full accompaniment. I concur with what is stated in the Hillsborough Agreement in that respect.

The question of the interconnector was raised by a number of Members. When Minister for Energy, I was involved in discussions on this matter. This is a vital infrastructural facility between North and South. The present position is that we take advice on rebuilding the interconnector but there are good security reasons for not doing so at present. As many Members said, it is regrettable that the men of violence are able to interfere with an interconnector which is of vital importance to both communities, North and South. I would like to see the interconnector rebuilt as this would be of immense benefit to both communities in terms of the availability of an electricity supply. This will be done, if possible.

Does the Minister have any overseeing role?

I would like an answer from the Minister to the questions I raised about the Mayhew blueprint, the UK position paper. What is the current position in that regard? Second, the Minister mentioned that he would like to continue his discussions with those involved but I understand from a reply to a recent Dáil question that no discussions are taking place between the Government and the Unionist side in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister agree that talking at the Unionists is not the best way to proceed? I accept that the Minister has shown goodwill and that he has issued countless numbers of invitations to people to come to talk to him. Is there any way in which he can reach out to the Unionists and have constructive discussions with them on a bilateral basis?

The so-called blueprint is a matter for the British Government which, in consultation with the Government, is working on a position paper which will be put on the table if the talks are resumed. Work is ongoing on that matter. At present there are no discussions between the Government and the Unionist parties. I said that the Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew, wants to have bilateral discussions with the various constitutional parties in Northern Ireland to see if he can establish their positions.

To respond to Deputy Owen, we are determined to ensure that a Minister other than the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Justice from a line Department, Education, Energy or Communications, will attend the Anglo-Irish Conference. Indeed, the Minister for Tourism and Trade accompanied us to our last meeting in Belfast. The Dublin-Belfast rail link and other matters are discussed on an ongoing basis and will be included in the Foreign Affairs brief relating to Northern Ireland.

Cross-Border projects have been positive and are doing tremendous work. We keep in contact with all relevant Departments in relation to these projects because there is a necessity for co-ordination. I encourage all my colleagues in Education, Health or the Environment, to ensure that they co-operate with their counterparts in Northern Ireland and engage in joint projects, where possible.

Chairman

As we are running out of time we will telescope questions relating to the European Community and international political developments even though it was our intention to take them separately.

My first question relates to Mordechai Vanunu who has spent six years in solitary confinement in jail in Israel. He was arrested six or seven years ago for allegedly exposing the acquisition by Israel of nuclear weapons. What representations has the Irish Government made to the Israeli Government in this case? The nature of the case against this man was dubious, to say the least.

My second question relates to the plight of the 396 Palestinians who have effectively been exported to a no man's land between the Lebanon and Israeli border and abandoned. These people are not allowed to return to their homes. What representations has the Irish Government made on this case? I urge the Minister not to agree to the location of an Israeli Embassy in Ireland until these issues are resolved. It would be an unwarranted concession to the Israeli Government and deliver the wrong signal if agreement was reached on this matter when such human rights violations are still being perpetrated.

In 1975 Indonesia invaded East Timor and engaged in the most appalling genocide, which is still continuing. Some members of the European Communty are supplying Indonesia with weapons and aircraft. I understand that in January of this year British Aerospace supplied 44 Hawk war planes to Indonesia and that it is in the process of purchasing 144 war planes. It is intolerable that members of the European Community should be involved in an arms trade with Indonesia when that country is effectively wiping out the Timorese people. I ask the Minister to indicate the efforts being being made by the Government to resolve this matter.

Finally, I wish to refer to a topic which many Deputies may not be prepared to raise. I welcome the fact that Deputy Declan Bree has raised this matter. I am referring to the blockade against Cuba in relation to which Ireland should take a strong stand. Cuba, a small island which has attempted to develop its own economic processes, has been almost virtually blocked off from the rest of the world. Last year the United States Government passed legislation which effectively seeks to put a stop to any country trading with Cuba. This country cannot import medicines, educational equipment, fuel, etc. and cannot export its goods. What role, if any, is Ireland playing in that blockade? What stand has Ireland taken at the United Nations in support of resolutions adopted against that blockade?

In regard to developments in the EC, it is appropriate that the Minister and the Members of the committee should address the lack of conclusive and clear progress on EC economic and political co-operation. The weaknesses in that process which have become evident during the past 12 months have had major implications. I am referring to the currency crisis and the Bosnian conflict which, I think, is related in some way to the impression abroad that the European Community is helpless to intervene in such affairs.

I do not wish to delay the House, but I wish to make a few points. One of the reasons for the currency crisis is that financial speculators throughout the world knew that Europe was not united and that there were obvious weaknesses which they could exploit. One of the weaknesses was that the country which held the Presidency of the Community at that time was not fully committed to the European concept. The country which had previously held the Presidency also had some difficulty about its commitment to the European union concept. In addition, the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty by France was carried by a very small majority. This again raised serious questions about the commitment of a senior partner in the European Community to the concept of European union. There are also the difficulties in the United Kingdom, even within the Parliament, about ratifying the Treaty.

All those factors have given people in the international arena outside the EC a clear message that Europe is not sure where it is going. I ask the Minister to use his influence to ensure that there is a concerted effort by the EC to shake off the lethargy which has overtaken it during the past number of years. The notion of a fortress Europe which was regularly tossed about some years ago seems to have vanished. One of the reasons it has vanished is that it never existed. Those people, who sought to destroy the European concept for one reason or another, have achieved their objective to some extent. I ask the Minister to address this issue, not only in the House but in the future at the various fora of which he is a member.

What timescale does the Minister envisage for the enlargement of the Community given the applications by the EFTA and Mediterranean countries for membership?

I support the points made by my colleague, Deputy Durkan, about the European Community. I am a committed supporter of both economic and political union in Europe and I fully support the Maastricht Treaty. Approximately one year ago we held our referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. Much has happened during the intervening period to make us pause and think about this matter. Perhaps we should straighten the economic agenda before we tackle the political agenda. Given the obvious lack of solidarity during the currency crisis, that old alliances in Europe, for example, France and Germany, seemed to re-establish themselves and we were pretty well left to hang out to dry, we may be biting off more than we can chew at present. I ask the Minister to reflect on these points. The aim is to achieve full economic union, including monetary union — which should be first on the agenda — by 1999. Allied to that is political union, a major and historical step to be taken in any part of the world. Even though I support these concepts, we should not damage them by going too fast. Those are my views one year after the referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, of which I am an enthusiastic supporter.

I recently put down two questions to the Minister which were not reached in the House, one of which dealt with the Western Sahara. The United Nations Organisation in that country is trying to put in place the mechanism to hold a referendum. As the House is aware, this country has been claimed by Morocco. The Polisario Front are fighting for the independence of the Sahrawi people. This is the last unsettled colonial question in Africa. We have a duty to protest to Morocco which is interfering with the attempts by the United Nations to put in place the mechanism for holding a referendum in Western Sahara.

That has been established by independent observers and other visitors to the territory. I know we have a relationship with Morocco and that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has a very good record in this area but we should protest to Morocco about its very obvious interference with the United Nations in that sorry part of Africa which is due to be decolonised.

Recently the Taoiseach paid a very high profile visit to Malaysia. Obviously the Government is very anxious to extend its contacts in the Pacific region.

On a point of Order, Sir, we are running out of time and if we continue with this question time we will not get the benefit of a considered reply on the major policy matters raised by the spokespersons.

I will do my best although my memory of Deputy Collins is that he was always good at procrastination in the Dáil. On the question of establishing contacts in the Pacific region, will the Minister for Foreign Affairs consider establishing contacts with Vietnam, as it wants to rid itself of its recent political baggage and open up to the West?

Does the Minister for Foreign Affairs believe that the target dates for certain developments set out in the Maastricht Treaty are still attainable? Does he agree that unless we have the will to march forward Europe will never develop in the way we want it? It is about time we stopped pretending that we should not be discussing Defence, Security and Foreign policy. Is it not time that we started to participate as a full member in the development of European unity? Does he agree we should ensure we have our say at the table and that we should not be afraid to talk about things in case we are accused of breaching our neutrality? I believe the problems in Bosnia are a direct result of the EC not having a common foreign policy.

Will the Minister for Foreign Affairs comment on the situation in the Sudan and its request for sanctions? This week Trócaire hosted a meeting at which two bishops from the area expressed their concern about the human rights violations and the attempt, as they see it, to impose a fundamentalist Islamic state on the people. Is this an issue with which Irish foreign policy, EC foreign policy and UN policy should concern itself?

Will the Minister for Foreign Affairs give us an update in the situation in Lesotho following the general election?

I thank Deputy De Rossa for his remarks on my speech on human rights in Vienna. I set out to outline Ireland's attitude and approach to these questions in a very firm way. They will be the guiding principles of our human rights objectives. I will take the opportunity to raise the imprisonment of Mr. Vanunu with the Israeli authorities, as I have not raised this matter in the past. I have raised the question of the Palestinians at meetings with both the Israeli Foreign Minister and the ambassador and I will continue to do so. Obviously we are committed to the Security Council resolution. On the question of an Israeli embassy in Dublin, as I said last week in the House, this is under review.

I have had a number of discussions with the Portuguese Foreign Minister and the Indonesian ambassador and I have corresponded with the Indonesian Foreign Minister. Certainly we are very concerned about the reported cases of human rights abuses in East Timor which need to be highlighted. As I said already we have discussed them on many occasions. We still recognise Portugal as the protecting power for East Timor and have not recognised its takeover by Indonesia. This matter was raised on 6 and 7 June at the EC Foreign Affairs meeting. We believe that dialogue between Portugal and Indonesia under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations is the best way to resolve this very difficult and sad question.

We remain concerned about the reports of human rights abuse in Tibet. Our concerns and those of the Community will continue to be made known to the Chinese Government in bilateral contacts and in appropriate international fora, such as the United Nations. The blockade of Cuba was raised. The US embargo on all political, economic and commercial relations with Cuba was imposed in 1962 and has not precluded other countries from developing trade and commercial links with Cuba, nor has it prevented the provision of humanitarian aid. In 1991 the European Community provided food aid to Cuba via the World Food Programme to the value of £1.6 milion ECUs, in 1992 emergency aid was provided in the form of medicines to the value of £250,000 ECUs and quantities of milk powder, cereal butter and vegetable oils were also provided. The normalisation of relationships between the United States and Cuba is essentially a bilateral matter between the two Governments and I hope the recent changes in the international political landscape will hold out the hope that conditions can be created for the end of Cold War animosities, which are long overdue.

The question of Maastricht was raised by a number of Deputies. I hope the Community will be in a position very shortly to ratify the Maastricht Treaty. Obviously the citizens of Europe expect to see the practical results of that ratification. One of its most important aspects relates to economic growth and this will be under discussion at the Copenhagen Summit on Monday and Tuesday. Deputy Connor argued for concentrating on the economic rather than the political agenda but I do not agree with that. I believe we have to pursue both agendas very actively. We have to get the Maastricht Treaty back on the rails. If the Maastricht Treaty has gone off the rails in the context of Denmark, the United Kingdom and a German constitutional court we have to accept it but we are hopeful that those matters will be resolved in a number of weeks and that the Community will then get back to dealing with the objectives of the Maastricht Treaty.

I do not have any difficulty about discussing common, foreign, security and defence policies, I would like to see an informed debate on these matters before 1996 because as Members know there is a possibility of a referendum on the defence policy. I would like to lead that informed debate by making information available. In the past there has not been a sufficiently widespread dispersal of information on major issues affecting this country and the Community.

Deputy O'Hanlon asked about the enlargement of the Community. The negotiations on the EFTA countries joining the Communities are making progress. They were slow at the start, but we are still on target for their completion by the end of the year, ratification by 1994 and by January 1995 the EFTA countries should be in the EC. We are supportive of the applicant countries and we will do everything possible to ensure that they become members on schedule.

On the question of establishing contacts with Vietnam, raised by Deputy Connor, I do not have plans to appoint representation to Vietnam. At present we have a low volume of trade with Vietnam but I can undertake to examine the matter, as long as Deputy Owen does not think I want to go off to Vietnam tomorrow morning——

What better way of finding out about it?

——in the context of our overall review of our agencies.

On the question of the Western Sahara, I understand that negotiations are taking place between a representative of the Secretary-General of the UN and both sides and we should encourage those negotiations.

Obviously we are concerned about human rights in the Sudan. We have made our views known to the government in Khartoum. As Members may know, the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, visited the Sudan in the past number of months. The Community has suspended aid to the Sudan under the Lomé Convention and we support that position.

Chairman

Thank you, Tánaiste.

Sitting suspended at 12.30 p.m. and resumed at 1 p.m.

Chairman

We proceed to the second stage of the proceedings which, as arranged, will deal with Vote 39 — International Co-operation — opening with a statement from the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt.

Vote 39 — International Co-Operation

(Revised Estimate).

The Vote for International Co-operation comes to a total of £38.8 million for 1993 and covers three main headings: our contributions to the UN and certain other international organisations, the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe and Ireland's Official Development Assistance.

The Tánaiste referred in his opening statement to Ireland's contribution to the UN which is the largest element under subhead A. Subhead B. of the Vote covers our share of the costs of the CSCE. The remaining subheads, C. to J., relate to Official Development Assistance.

Like the Tánaiste I am particularly happy to be appearing before the committee at a time when Official Development Assistance is expanding. The people of Ireland have been extremely generous over the years in the contributions they have made to Third World charities and I am strongly in favour of the Government also playing its role fully.

I have become even more convinced of the urgency of Ireland playing its part in the six months since I took over ministerial responsibility for development co-operation. In that time I have been able to see for myself the great need which exists in so many developing countries. I have also seen how effective assistance can be. One message which I would like to get across today is that aid can and does have an effect and that even a small amount of expenditure, if it is well placed and well thought out, can make a tremendous difference.

In my two visits to Africa I saw the different kinds of assistance in action. In Southern Sudan there is the most extreme sort of situation where people are starving and dying before your eyes. Here what is required is urgent humanitarian relief, basic food and drugs, clothing and shelter. A million pounds has been allocated from our Emergency Relief Fund for Southern Sudan this year. I have been pressing my colleagues in the EC and elsewhere to step up the volume of aid going to Southern Sudan. I will continue to press for greater action by the international community as there are still not enough supplies reaching those in need. The EC Troika of Development Ministers will be visiting the area this weekend and that should give a boost to the Community's level of assistance.

In Somalia a sense of hope existed when I was there in March, hope that the worst was over and that the long process of rehabilitation could begin. Sine then, as members of the committee know, the political situation has worsened. I sincerely hope that the situation will not deteriorate further and that the process of restoring Somalia's infrastructure and political and social fabric can resume. The country will certainly need outside help for a long time to come. This year the Bilateral Aid Programme is funding a project to be run by Concern, aimed at rehabilitating primary schools in Mogadishu and we are currently considering another project with Trócaire.

The atmosphere in Zambia and Tanzania, which I also visited this year, was very different from that in Somalia or Sudan. Both countries are availing of political stability to tackle the serious economic and fiscal problems which they face. They are among the world's poorest countries and economic reforms are making great demands especially on the very poor. Ireland is increasing its assistance to both Zambia and Tanzania and that fact is deeply appreciated by the leaders of the two countries. The type of project we are financing are development projects whose aim is to address the countries' long term needs. In many ways this kind of long term aid is the most important assistance which we can give. Its objective is to develop in the recipient country the human and organisational capacity necessary for self reliance. Emergency disaster relief may be the kind of aid which we see most often on our television screens but the real answer to the underlying problems facing developing countries is long term sustainable development programmes.

The overall Estimate for ODA in 1993 is £53 million. This figure includes expenditure from a number of sources in addition to the moneys which my Department has responsibility for under the International Co-operation Vote. The main components of ODA which fall outside my Department's responsibilities are contributions to the EC from Central Funds and contributions to the World Bank and the International Development Association which are the responsibility of the Minister for Finance.

The figure of £53 million of ODA represents a major increase on last year's expenditure of £40.7 million. It means that we will fulfil the undertaking given in the Programme for Government to raise our expenditure on ODA to 0.2 per cent of GNP in 1993.

On the bilateral side, the increased funding in 1993 will allow for expansion in assistance to target countries, particularly the four priority countries under the Bilateral Aid Programme: Zambia, Tanzania, Lesotho and Sudan. As I have said, it will also permit rehabilitation projects to be undertaken in Somalia where there is enormous need. More funds will be available for fellowships and third level course for students from developing countries.

The allocation for the Agency for Personal Service Overseas, APSO, is up from £2.6 million to £4.5 million. Irish aid workers have made an enormous contribution in Somalia and Southern Sudan and in many other countries in need. The purpose in channelling more funds to APSO is to open up possibilities for more people and more expertise to be contributed. Last week APSO presented me with a major consultancy report with recommendations on how it can implement the commitment in the Programme for Government to increase placements abroad substantially by 1997.

Among the conclusions of the report are: APSO will need to extend its geographic coverage and the types of placements it approves to meet the programme target. The agency should spread its regional focus, especially in Asia and Latin America and should consider extending into some Eastern European countries, and middle income developing countries. Health and education, traditionally APSO's two main skill areas, will continue to have a very prominent place, with newer source professions, such as public administration, business, technical skills and logistics. APSO will have to expand its co-operation with its existing partners, namely Irish NGOs and missionary organisations, and develop relations with other reputable international institutions.

I urged APSO to avail of this opportunity to tap the great resources of qualified personnel which we have in Ireland. I am happy to say that APSO are confident that they can place 690 people overseas this year compared to 400 last year.

It has been possible to make a substantial increase in the voluntary allocations to UN agencies, these are up to £2.5 million from £800,000 last year. The increased funding will enable us to make a more respectable contribution this year to such agencies as the United Nations Development Programme, UNICEF and the UN High Commission for Refugees.

As for future planning, the Tánaiste and I will shortly make public a strategy plan for the expansion of the ODA programme over the next four years. Among the measures which I consider a priority is the establishment of a new advisory body on ODA. There is a need for an independent source of advice on the operation of the programme and on development issues generally and I hope that it will be possible to have the new advisory body in place by the autumn.

I am glad to be able to inform the committee that Professor John Kelly, Registrar of University College Dublin and a distinguished figure in the development community has agreed to work with me in setting up the advisory body on ODA and in drawing up its terms of reference. Professor Kelly has indicated that he would be prepared to chair the new body when it is established.

I will be happy to answer questions from Deputies and Senators on the detail of the Estimates and on broader issues they may wish to raise.

We, on this side of the House, welcome unreservedly the increase for the first time in six years our contribution towards official overseas aid. However, we must not forget that we are still less than one-third of the way towards reaching the UN target of 0.7 per cent of GDP assistance to the underdeveloped world. Even with this year's increase we are only back to where we were in 1986. We must not forget either that even with this welcome increase we are still at the bottom of the OECD league in relation to the UN target.

Considering that we concentrate the greater part of our ODA in Africa, it is difficult not to despair when looking at that continent's inevitable destiny of disaster. Thirty years of post colonial independence has seen many African nations sink into the worst possible dictatorships, disastrous ideological experiments, chaos and widespread hunger, famine and destitution. However, there is some hope on the horizon. The conflicts in Mozambique and Ethiopia have ended and free elections have brought democratic reform-minded governments to power in many more African countries. Such developments have brought hope to millions of people for the first time in decades, but that hope is precarious and fragile. Unless there is recovery, mainly with the assistance of the developed industrial world, 300 million people — half the continent's populations — will live in destitution and die of hunger and hunger-induced but curable diseases by the end of this decade and century in approximately six and a half years' time. Armageddon is the lot of 218 million people on the African continent.

In a time of new world order this country must to be the fore in calling for an international plan to back African recovery. Co-operation and direct links must be built with governments, particularly the new democratic governments who are struggling to hold on with the industrial north or the developed world. Such a plan must have enough financial resources and a wide range of redistributive measures so that the poor on that continent can for the first time, enjoy some benefit from economic growth. The end of the Cold War has released billions of dollars used to fund the rivalries of the great powers in the past. That rivalry has left a truly horrific legacy all over Africa. Countless thousands of guns and other weapons proliferate uncontrolled all over that region. Those weapons were supplied by the old Soviet bloc, the USA, and indeed, France and Britain to their various friendly governments to promote their Cold War aims and interests on the African continent. The need for that immoral trade is now gone and we must lead in an effort to do something about that region's debt burden which drains $10 billion in repayments each year. If that $10 billion was kept in the African economy for even one year it would save the lives of millions of people, particularly young mothers and children, who die prematurely from disease and hunger.

We must work internationally to relieve the adverse trade environment under which Africa operates. Since the late 1980s there have been disastrous falls in the price of coffee, cocoa, grounds nuts and ores such as copper which are almost exclusively the commodities from which African countries earn foreign exchange through exports. It is estimated that since commodity prices started to fall some five to seven years ago African exporters have lost at least 55 billion American dollars. That figure is almost two and a quarter times greater than the amount Africa receives in aid transfers per annum.

There will be a mid-term review of the Lomé Convention next year and this is where Ireland can play a part. The present convention will operate until the year 2000. The essence of Lomé is to extend trade and aid advantage to the ACP group of countries. I urge the Minister to take every opportunity during the Belgian Presidency, later this year to urge for a significant increase in payments by the European Community through the medium of the EDF and other agencies as a mid-term contribution to the Lomé review and as compensation for the disastrous trade losses of the ACP nations in recent years.

The role of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank needs to be examined seriously. As Africa's main development lenders, the adjustments they sought and got from many countries are not working. Demanding the abolition of food subsidies in Zambia, for example, has had disastrous effects and resulted in thousands dying of disease and hunger which otherwise might not have been the case. Insisting on measures that are appropriate only to developed economies, such as devaluations, decontrolling of prices and other austere measures means that prices for the basics in life go beyond the reach of millions, resulting in a worsening of the problem of starvation and impoverishment. Recently somebody examined child welfare in Africa having regard to the World Bank and the IMF. Admittedly, it was a narrow survey, but it highlighted that the economic hardship resulting from insistence on certain adjustments caused malnutrition in children rising from one in 20 eight years ago to one in five today.

The most tangible way the Government can impact on underdevelopment is through our bilateral aid programme, which should be extended to another priority country, Cambodia, which has emerged from total mayhem, anarchy and chaos and in which a democratic election has recently been held. That country needs every possible assistance from the developed world. I appreciate our contribution to solving the overall problem in Cambodia would be small, but we should lead by example and make Cambodia a priority country as soon as possible.

In regard to priority countries in Africa, I note that between 3 per cent and 4 per cent of all overseas development aid received by Lesotho is contributed by Ireland. We contribute less than one per cent of the total overseas development aid to Tanzania and Zambia. We should work to bring our contribution to between 3 and 4 per cent of the total ODA to these countries. I would like to be able to say something similar in regard to the Sudan, but I have reservations because of the position in regard to human rights there. We certainly need to do everything we can towards the alleviation of the results of disasters etc. However, a moral question arises in regard to a country where there are severe abuses of human rights. We should be saying to the Governments of such countries that there are strings attached to our ODA, that good behaviour in the area of human rights makes us much more generous, and that we should have to look seriously at ODA aimed at long term economic development with the possibility of postponing that until we see positive moves in regard to human rights.

I appreciate that I have exceeded my time but I thank you, Chairman, for allowing me to put my thoughts on the record.

I wish to take up the last point made by Deputy Connor in regard to tying aid to human rights. I sympathise with this view but I have certain reservations about it. The problem of choosing whether or not to assist somebody to survive by providing food on the basis that those who rule them are in some way abusing others is not easily resolved.

We did not mean food aid.

I excluded food.

It should be made clear that it is not a question of leaving people who are the victims of abuse to the vagaries of particular regimes which are, for a variety of reasons, in breach of human rights obligations. The Minister this morning indicated that there had to be a degree of realism in regard to the contribution we can make internationally and that we should not overblow it in terms of what our influence or our capacity is while at the same time not under estimating it. In the area of influence in underdeveloped countries we have perhaps a far greater influence than our size or the financial contribution we can make would warrant or lead one to expect. We have that influence for a variety of historical reasons. However, in having that influence, we have to accept the responsibility. There are in the region of 3,000 million people on the face of this globe who are living in either poverty or destitution. Tens of thousands of children die weekly from malnutrition and treatable diseases. We, as human beings, have a responsibility to try to deal with these. Given our population size and our development the absolute amount of financial aid that we can give is limited compared to Sweden whose contribution has gone beyond that recommended by the United Nations.

On that basis I very much welcome the fact that the Government has increased its aid on this occasion for this year and has given a commitment to increase it consistently over the next number of years. I would hope that the Government would consider introducing legislation which would place an obligation on future Governments to comply with that kind of approach to aid. I am not suggesting that any Government in power may not annual legislation, but at least the moral obligation would be there and it would be difficult to go back on it.

The second point I want to make is that aid and its effect is limited unless there is a political structure internationally which assists developing countries to trade internationally and develop their own economies and indigenous industries. It seems that the position the Irish Government has adopted with regard to GATT is detrimental to that objective. Particularly, lining up with the French in relation to the compromise on the agricultural subsidies seems to fly in the face of our declared aim of ensuring that the Third World would have an opportunity of trading internationally at realistic prices so that they can begin to sustain their own populations.

Certainly there is a need for more openness and transparency on the part of our Government in relation to positions it adopts in the various international organisations and letting the public here know precisely the policy bases on which it pursues particular issues internationally. We cannot on the one hand claim, as we rightly do, that we are concerned about the people of the world and, at the same time, adopt positions internationally which are solely guided by our own self interest in terms of development at home. If we are going to help the Third World, that will require sacrifices not just on the basis of putting a few shillings in a collection box or allocating a fairly miniscule proportion of our tax take to overseas development aid, it will require a review of the attitude we take on the Multi-Fibre Arrangement, the quotas that operate, the way in which we apply them and in which the European Community applies them. A whole range of issues need to be dealt with which do not impinge directly on the actual cash amounts that we transfer to the Third World. Indeed, it has to be said — I do not say this in any disparaging way — that even the amounts we transfer to the Third World are more than compensated for by our own income from the Third World in terms of trade. It seems that there are advantages to be gained in ensuring that the underdeveloped countries are in fact enabled to develop.

I wish to make one point in regard to this question of the economies of the Third World, and it is sparked to some extent by the remarks I heard President Clinton make this morning about helping to establish market economics along with democracy and human rights in Somalia. It seems that it would be a mistake for this country, or any other country in the developed world, to assume that the kind of economic processes that have evolved in the developed world are suitable for the kind of environment in those areas. We only have to look at the utter chaos that now exists in Eastern Europe economically, and particularly in the countries of the former Soviet Union, to know that one cannot simply transplant an economic system from one part of the world to another and expect that it will work even half well, apart altogether from the fact that the system does not work that way even in the countries where it first emerged and evolved into its most developed form. The points I have raised are sustained to some extent by the document Boutros Boutros-Ghali produced entitled "An Agenda for Peace". Paragraph 81, pages 46 and 47 of that document states:

Democracy within nations requires respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, as set forth in the Charter. It requires as well a deeper understanding and respect for the rights of minorities and respect for the needs of the more vulnerable groups of society, especially women and children. This is not only a political matter. The social stability needed for productive growth is nurtured by conditions in which people can readily express their will. For this, strong domestic institutions of participation are essential. Promoting such institutions means promoting the empowerment of the unorganised, the poor, the marginalised. To this end, the focus of the United Nations should be on the "field", the locations where economic, social and political decisions take effect. In furtherance of this I am taking steps to rationalise and in certain cases integrate the various programmes and agencies of the United Nations within specific countries.

I hope what Boutros Boutros-Ghali means by taking steps relates to some of the multilateral programmes which come under the aegis of the UN and which were criticised by members of this committee at an earlier debate on ODA. In general, I agree with the points he made. We must have regard to wider questions and not just to the amount of money we give.

I thank the Chairman for his latitude in allowing me to continue beyond the time limit. The group, Campaign Aid, was established by returned aid workers to campaign for an increase in Ireland's ODA as a proportion of GNP. The campaign has been successful in that the Government has agreed to increase its contribution. That group has supplied the committee with a submission in relation to how it considers Ireland should address issues in regard to ODA. Important and pertinent points are raised in its submission, some of which I have already covered. I hope when we establish a sub-committee on development co-operation this submission might be used as the basis for preparing an agenda for that sub-committee. There are many important points in that submission by people who have experience in delivering aid and they know the political environment in which aid workers must operate and the need to address the political and economic issues as well as the specific aid issue.

Chairman

That concludes the opening statements. We will now move to questions on development co-operation under Vote 39 on international co-operation.

Like other speakers, I welcome the reversal of the sad trend of the last few years in relation to the scale of our development aid. As Deputy De Rossa suggested, we should have legal arrangements in regard to our commitment to ODA. Fine Gael has advocated that measure for some time. There should be a steady increase in our ODA by means of a binding agreement on all parties in this regard. While we all hold similar views on this issue now, it is extraordinary that for a period of seven years contributions to aid were cut or remained static. Parties' views on aid may not always be the same having regard to other political pressures. Across the water there is a decrease in the overseas aid budget this year. We should not take for granted that there will always be consensus on this issue. I would welcome a legal arrangement in regard to our commitment to ODA and Fine Gael would support such a measure.

I am aware that this morning the general staffing area of the Department was dealt with. Now that the overseas development budget has been increased, is the Minister of State satisfied that a structure within his Department is adequate and given the weight and prestige it requires? Is he also aware that the development section of the Department of Foreign Affairs was described some years ago as a Cinderella which did not have the glamour of an ambassadorial presence in different countries. In other European countries agencies have been hived off and removed from the aegis of the Department of Foreign Affairs. In some cases members of the Royal Family head those agencies. Is the Tánaiste satisfied that levels of staffing and structures within his Department are adequate to give due attention to the substantial issues? Regarding granting aid, those involved have raised questions as to how aid is allocated, is the aid developing the countries or undermining existing structures? We are aware that grant mentalities may have destructive effects. There are major issues relating to the pouring of aid into the Third World and management of such aid which require serious commitment. Overseas developments aid is different from the main business of the Department of Foreign Affairs. It relates and interlinks but it is a different challenge. Is the Tánaiste happy with the present structures in his Department for dealing with overseas development aid or does he consider a structure outside his Department should be established to deal with this area?

A colleague suggested Cambodia is a priority country in regard to aid. Currently our priority countries in regard to the distribution of aid are in Africa. We have strong links with many countries in the African region. I welcome the Tánaiste's indication at Question Time of a commitment to develop bilateral links with Mozambique and South Africa. The position in South Africa is critical because of the destabilisation of the region over a long period. The emergence of a secure democratic state will provide stability in South Africa. It will require help with the democratisation process. At present the issue of how to treat South Africa for the purposes of aid is being considered at international level and I raised this matter by way of parliamentary question with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. If The GNP for South Africa was averaged out it would fall in the middle income bracket. There is great inequality in the distribution of income, which is concentrated in small sections of the community, that is unlikely to change radically and suddenly with a new democratic Government. There is a commitment now to maintain the capitalist system and to allow people to own property. Redistribution of income will not happen overnight, it will take time. If South Africa was treated universally as a country of middle income earners account would not be taken of the dire poverty in the country which is comparable to many other African regions where black Africans live in the homelands. It is a complex issue because many people in South Africa argue they do not want aid but special trade relations. Those people tend to head large corporations and have a large stake in society. The issue of aid has to be carefully monitored and I would like the Minister of State to clarify his views in this regard.

One of my colleagues referred to the important issue of trade. The GATT agreement is now moving towards conclusion and with respect to Peter Sutherland, the fact that an Irish man is the Director General of GATT will be of no significance to us because he will be totally independent in that position. However, a general point which must be made is regarding the concerns of Third World countries in relation to GATT and its progress and the proposal for a new multi-lateral trade organisation. They are concerned that the new structures of GATT will not be as sympathetic to their needs as the existing structures. I was glad Peter Sutherland——

Chairman

A question please, Deputy.

——had an opportunity to meet representatives of those groups and reassure them in this regard. Does the Minister share the views of the Third World agencies that this new structure may be somewhat unsympathetic to them or does he continue to hold the view expressed in a reply to a question of mine in this regard?

I am aware the Minister of State has agreed to aid the democratisation process in South Africa. I am not aware whether Ireland is directly involved — perhaps we are involved indirectly through the NGO's — but there are a number of political observer missions in South Africa. I understand these have contributed towards reducing tension in certain situations. Is the Minister aware of the concern in the region that the missions who carry out this work, which is regarded by the local population as valuable, report back only to their Governments, the EC or the UN? The local groups on the ground do not receive any structured feedback and are not made aware of any changes that may be introduced. There is a communications gap in this regard which could be closed if due attention was given to it by the agencies and individual Governments funding those programmes. Unfortunately, I will not be present when the Minister of State is replying but I will hear the reports of my colleagues and will read the Official Report with interest.

Like other Deputies I join in welcoming the substantial increase in the allocation for this year from £40 million to £53 million. While it has been remarked that it really only brings us back to the position of six years ago it is useful to note that the downward trend has been reversed and that the commitment to bring it more in line with the UN recommendations is being met.

I am glad to hear that a plan is being prepared by the Minister of State and the Tánaiste to manage Ireland's overseas development assistance in the medium to long term. It is very easy when responding to constant demands to become a little haphazard or to be led by the latest crisis that may arise. I welcome this programme being placed on a more formal footing.

I welcome the increase in the bilateral aid programme. The countries who have benefited from our association with them through this programme recognise that it is a quality programme. It does not favour the donor countries, which is a feature of much of the aid given by other developed countries. The fact that it has been increased by 50 per cent is significant. We should extend our links in this regard. Cambodia was mentioned and in recent times there have been many Irish associations through the UN effort with that country. There has been Irish involvement of various forms in other countries and these could be examined also.

I welcome also the approximate doubling of the amount allocated to APSO. I am glad the report is to hand and will be acted on. There is a need to diversify the range of activities which APSO engage in. The proposal that it should co-operate more with NGO's and with, for example, religious organisations, who have much experience in dealing with developing countries, is welcome.

I welcome the large increase from £800,000 to £2.5 million in the voluntary contributions we are making to UN agencies. In times of cutbacks we tend to concentrate on the essentials and matters over which we have some discretion tend to be cut back. I am glad that our contribution to organisations such as UNICEF, the fund for women's development and, particularly, the UNHCR, which is dealing with difficult situations in countries such as Bosnia, has been increased substantially. To use a term of the Tánaiste's, it is moving from a minimalist to a maximalist approach.

I welcome the fact that the advisory committee on ODA will be re-established. It was a great loss that the previous council was not continued. Given the amount of experience here in dealing with overseas development assistance and the people who have worked both in the field and in a research capacity in this area, it is essential that they be involved in advising the Government on the priorities for this programme.

Deputy De Rossa mentioned the fact that this committee has agreed, in principle, to establish a sub-committee on development co-operation. I would like to compliment Campaign Aid on the succinct submission which it has made. It has made general, specific and procedural recommendations and we should act on those as soon as possible.

I wish to raise a question in relation to an area which has grown in importance over the past number of years, namely, assistance to Eastern Europe. The agencies that receive this assistance gain benefits for themselves. It is useful for organisations who become involved in this work to have, say, another string to their bow. But countries such as the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia are happy to deal with Irish agencies because they realise we do not have a power bloc or colonial mentality and are not simply touting for business for ourselves. They relate well to Irish agencies involved in this work. Will the Minister give a more detailed breakdown of the assistance allocated last year and the plans for the spending of that £180,000 in the coming year?

I wish to congratulate the Minister of State on the work he has been doing on our behalf and also the Tánaiste whose compassion in this field is well recognised. The generosity and compassion of the Irish people during the recent crises affecting various countries throughout the world was a tremendous uplift to the morale of our people. Many of our people, particularly our young people, are involved, with a great sense of idealism, in fundraising activities. This is carried out in schools, factories, offices and through many other organisations. We are really fortunate that so many people are willing to engage in fundraising. Frequently we see what is wrong in our country but we rarely have an opportunity to express publicly what is right. We all agree in this House on what is right in our country, namely, our people, young and old, who are engaged in these activities.

I am interested in the targeting programme and we appear to have, as it were, adopted Zambia, Tanzania, Lesotho and Sudan as countries we wish to help. I realise how difficult and frustrating it must be for the voluntary organisations in countries like Sudan where there is frequently difficulty getting humanitarian aid to the people for whom it is intended. I am delighted the money allocated to APSO has been increased by such a substantial amount. It is very important to continue to train young people for overseas work. Perhaps the Minister will comment on the possibility of setting up a development centre here to train people from overseas in development work. The school of public administration does a lot of this work for central and local Government but a peace force should be trained to work in the field.

Perhaps the Minister will refer to the fact that every Lomé convention, with the exception of one, has been presided over by an Irish person. I do not think we have the presidency at the moment but what input will we have in future negotiations such as the forthcoming review? I am in favour of withholding aid from countries in breach of human rights, but we must be very careful not to get into the area of selectivity. That procedure should be followed by organisations such as the United Nations and EC bodies.

The sorriest picture of all is the trade in armaments over the years to countries such as Somalia thereby giving them access to these dreadful weapons of war. It is heart-breaking to see people use these weapons on each other. It is a blight on the western world that supposedly civilised countries engage in arms trade with these unsophisticated people who fall into the hands of the warlords about whom we have heard on the news. Ireland should step up its opposition to trading in arms. By doing so we may prevent conflicts in future. Countries such as Britain, America and the former Soviet Union are war economies, where people are employed to manufacture weapons of death. We should keep shouting "no" to put an end to that practice.

As I said at a previous meeting, I am unhappy that circumstances such as those in former Yugoslavia will arise in parts of the former Soviet Union. Our newspapers would have to double or treble their size if they were to publish the horrors in all parts of the world. I welcome the Minister's contribution towards making Ireland stand out as a proud nation. We are a small country with a loud voice and we are being listened to.

I will try to confine myself to questions because I know we will be able to tease out many of the areas we are dealing with today when the sub-committee is formed. First I would like clarification on a technical question. I have a number of documents, the Book of Estimates, a very good document circulated to the foreign affairs committee and another circular. In the document circulated to the committee there is a matter which I cannot find in either of the other two documents. Under "Multi-lateral" there is a heading "EC Budget (Development Co-operation Elements)" and the amount involved is £10.8 million. I can find no corresponding figure in the other documents. Does that figure represent the total sum of a few headings?

We will come back to that matter later.

Is the Minister confused too?

He wants to keep the Deputy in the dark for as long as possible.

Will the Minister give some idea as to the use of the £742,000 under the Council of Europe subhead? I assume it relates to travelling expenses for people attending meetings in Europe.

I am very pleased with the increase in the allocation to ODA. We should consider the proposals by Campaign Aid, a very worthy body which has literally battered the doors of the Department of Foreign Affairs to increase ODA and to consider the various criteria that should be used in spending this money. I am disappointed the figure for co-financing of aid projects with NGOs has been reduced by £230,000 as against the 1992 figure. The committee was told that last year the figure was increased by £500,000 — the original Estimate was £1 million. A figure should not be inserted in the hope that it will be increased if money is found somewhere else. I would like clarification on the EC budget money and development fund. My understanding is that with multilateral payments the tendency is for the Department to put in the highest possible figure requested so that when it comes to paying there is spare cash which is used to top up other elements. The Estimates should be transparent so that we know where the money is spent. I do not wish to be offensive but it is unacceptable that £500,000 is left over at the end of the day from a multi-lateral project so that the Minister can use it on whatever project he or she may wish, as happened previously.

In one instance I questioned the amount of £1,000 in the humanitarian emergency budget and was told it was from savings on the multilateral side. That meant somebody knew, even when they were putting down the figure, that there would be savings and held that money in their back pocket. There should be more transparency so that we know from where the money is coming. Is the £1.73 million for NGO co-financing the final figure or will that amount be increased?

I welcome the increase in voluntary contributions to UN development agencies. There is a big increase in multilateral payments this year, but I do not necessarily always welcome that. We should try to get a better balance between bilateral multilateral programmes, with the emphasis on bilateral aid programmes. We do not take sufficient interest — perhaps we do not have the time — in spending on the multilateral side. I welcome the fact that more money is being allocated to UNICEF. Will the Minister state Ireland's position vis-�-vis ratification of the United Nations convention on the rights of the child? The former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey, went with a fanfare to a meeting in September 1991, escorted by two children, one of whom is from my housing estate in Malahide, and announced that we would ratify this convention. However, we could not do so because the Child Care Act had not been implemented. Will the Minister say whether we have fully implemented our obligations under this UN convention? My understanding is that we have not, that there is another step we must take in this regard.

I would like further clarification on the refugee agency. The Government will know that we on this side of the House were very annoyed it did not support the refugee Bill introduced by Fine Gael. Instead they announced yet another committee to look into the matter and report to us. Where will this new committee interface with the refugee agency? I know that is a State body but I understand there is an intergovernmental refugee committee co-ordinating work between the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Justice, and, perhaps, Health and Education. Where is the money for that inter-departmental body? What is happening to this committee?

Will the Tánaiste elaborate on the UN population fund? It is not a fund with which Ireland was involved because it raises the very thorny issues of population control and so on. Is this in line with our new family planning legislation?

I welcome the increase in APSO funding. Will the Minister assure us that he will look favourably on a proposal from APSO to assist in sending trained people to work in South Africa in preparation for the elections? The proposal is that we should send either county council officials or other experienced people to help prepare for the democratisation process. A proposal will come to the Minister shortly from APSO in conjunction with AWEPA.

Subhead F refers to payments to international funds for benefits to developing countries and the sum is £8,300,000 in the current year. Under this subhead funds are provided to meet Ireland's contribution to the European Development Fund established under the Lomé Conventions and the International Fund for Agricultural Development. May I have a breakdown of that figure as between the payments to EDF and IFAD? Do we always contribute to IFAD?

I note that Tanzania and Zambia figure best in terms of money spent. Our contribution under this heading to Sudan this year will be £545,000. It has been suggested that the regime in Khartoum operates a rather peculiar exchange policy. They operate a very favourable exchange rate for themselves and an unfavourable exchange rate for the donor countries in relation to development assistance moneys transferred. Will the Minister comment on this because it has been suggested that this might be a type of creaming off the top slice for that recipient country? I have some unfavourable comments to make about the Sudan and its human rights record. I would not like to have to add that to my list of objections to the country.

The Programme for Government proposed that donors to NGOs would get a tax rebate if they entered a covenant. Has that been implemented? I am sure most of the NGOs here would be very interested in that. Will the Minister elaborate on its present status?

Has the Minister of State assessed net benefits to recipients as between multilateral and bilateral aid? Like Deputy Owen, I feel it is rewarding for the donor country to be able to adopt projects in identifiable areas. This approach would be good also from the point of view of concentrating attention on a particular area with a view to gaining more support and highlighting the necessity to concentrate on a project. When a contribution is made to the amorphous mass of world aid there is a danger that the contribution from a country of this size will be submerged to the extent that we might feel it not as important as it could be. In terms of the number of development aid workers we have overseas, it would be good for their morale if they recognised that the home country was participating in a direct way. It would encourage them to carry on the work. Their work should be recognised and we should give them every possible encouragement. Will the Minister outline the current position of the Irish development aid programme in Lesotho post the general election?

I thank Deputies for their questions and will take them in the order in which they were put.

Deputy Flaherty asked about the aid programme and its management. I am very satisfied with the management of the programme. The quality of our programme has been fabourably reviewed by the development assistance committee of the OECD. In general, Irish aid enjoys a good reputation with other donors and with the beneficiaries. I am not persuaded by the case for a separate agency. That would be costly. Obviously, as the programme expands, we will need to consider staffing levels. We have an advisory body which will increase the scrutiny of the programme.

Deputies Flaherty, Gallagher and Connor referred to Cambodia. Many factors have to be taken into account, including acuteness of need, capacity to absorb aid, and suitability in terms of our skill and strength in establishing what kind of new country we take on. We will be concentrating on Africa and Deputies referred to the need to concentrate our efforts there. We have undertaken some fact finding missions. Officials from my Department have gone to Ethiopia, Uganda and Mozambique and I am examining reports of those visits. Apart from establishing a priority list there are other ways of assisting countries. I have a particular interest in Cambodia and Vietnam. I propose to visit those countries in the autumn to see the position and to ascertain how we can assist. I might suggest things such as co-financing, referred to earlier, which could be effected to assist those countries.

The overall question of trade was referred to by Deputies Flaherty and De Rossa earlier — trade, debt, GATT and structural adjustments. This is an issue which has arisen at Question Time before. I am very much aware of problems arising from the heavy burden of debt carried by many Third World countries. It is a major issue for the world community and needs to be tackled at a global level, which was pointed out by Mr. Peter Sutherland on his recent appointment as Director General of GATT. There is always a problem in endeavouring to balance our interests with our concerns for developing countries.

Within the European Community we have also given our support to measures to write off the debts of the poorest ACP countries arising under STABEX, the Community fund set up under the various Lomé Conventions, and will continue to do so. Indeed we will continue to argue within the European Community for special priority to be given to the trading needs of developing countries. Under the Lomé Conventions there are no restrictions on the import of industrial goods from ACP countries to the European Community. Certainly I will take on board Deputy Connor's suggestions, when he said we should increase Lomé Convention support, in the next round of negotiations. My colleague, Deputy Briscoe, also referred to this aspect.

The GATT was referred to by a number of Members. I appreciate that there are areas in which there is a conflict of interest between producers in developing countries and domestic producers. I cannot say that precedence should always be given to one or the other set of interests. However, the area of conflict of interest between Irish and developing country producers is very limited. Where such conflict arises I shall continue to do my best to ensure that a solution is found which takes as much account as possible of the interests of all parties.

Structural adjustments were also referred to. Many developing countries are implementing structural adjustment programmes to help to tackle the fundamental problem of their debt, usually involving massive cutbacks on social spending — this point must be made — for example, food subsidies may be eliminated and health centres closed, resulting in very severe hardship. Ireland has been among those countries which encourage the World Bank to build in protections for vulnerable groups in its structural adjustment programmes. We argue that, while the developing countries must seek to reduce their debt burdens, they must also be given support by the richer countries to cushion the effects on the poorest, most vulnerable countries. It is important to make that point. Indeed, we have shown considerable leadership in that area.

Deputy Flaherty referred to South Africa. I might refer briefly to the fact that the European community observer mission to South Africa, called ECOMSA, was sent to South Africa to assist in the transition of that country to a non-racial, united and democratic State, and to assist in the implementation of the national peace accord. The first members of that EC observer team arrived in South Africa in October 1992. There were originally 15 observers in the mission. I might add that two members of the Garda Síochána are serving with this body.

Human rights were mentioned by Deputies Briscoe, Connor and De Rossa. I should like to refer to this important matter. Indeed a number of Members referred to this issue in relation to Sudan. Having visited there I should like to share with the Members of the committee some things I undertook to do when I spoke to their political leaders. Naturally, we were concerned at reports of human rights violations and made representations at official level, both bilaterally and in partnership with other EC member states, to the Sudanese Government on this matter. Certainly I have pointed out this overall question of human rights violation on many occasions when I spoke to a number of Ministers on my visit to Khartoum. However, since our development programme directly benefits the poorer sections of the population, they would be the people to suffer if we suspended our programme. For that reason I do not propose to abandon the programme, nor indeed the expectations we have built up with the population at local level, that we would assist them in providing their basic needs and improving the quality of their lives in the long term. I merely instance Sudan as an example of how we are involved at local level with community leaders. I experienced this in some of the displaced sections outside Khartoum where we are undertaking tremendous work in co-operation with local communities. We will adopt positive rather than negative measures and reward countries moving towards democracy, that is speaking globally, cancelling aid as a last resort. That is an important point. The European Community is committed to backing its policy on human rights. Obviously, we work very closely with the EC and fully support the policy I have outlined. We believe that positive measures are the best means of approaching this problem referred to by a number of Members.

Deputy Owen referred to the refugee issue. I should like to clear up this matter. For example, she spoke about the interdepartmental committee. Funds are not needed for this committee, which comprises representatives of my Department, the Department of Justice and Enterprise and Employment. Separate from that there is the Refugee Agency, the 1992 grant-in-aid to this agency amounting to £100,000. I want to make it clear that they are two separate entities.

Deputy Connor referred to the International Fund for Agricultural Development — IFAD. This is a United Nations development lending institution about which he was anxious to know more. It was established in 1977 to provide soft loans and grants for agricultural and rural development in lower and middle income developing countries. To date, they have provided in excess of 3.1 billion dollars in soft loans and grants for this purpose, providing such essential commodities as water, fertilisers, infrastructure and access to credit so that small, marginal and landless farmers might become efficient food producers. IFAD has some 150 member state participants divided into three categories. Category one comprises developed countries; category two comprises oil exporting developing countries and category three comprises other developing countries. IFAD is unique in that it has enabled oil exporting countries to make a major, separately identifiable, contribution to development although the continuing commitment of some of them is in doubt. For example, the recent election of a Kuwait President could mean that a number of Arab States which had fallen behind in their financial contributions will now pay up.

Deputy Gallagher referred to Eastern Europe and was anxious to have more information on our aid to those countries. Last year we provided £100,000, the areas assisted being tourism promotion, training, small enterprise and development. I shall be glad to pass on any additional information I can to the Deputy. This year £100,000 will be allocated for bilateral projects, in addition to £80,000 for the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Those projects are under consideration, when obviously there will be an Irish involvement.

A number of Members questioned whether money was not being better spent on bilateral aid. It is not a case of one or the other; we aim for a good mix of multi-lateral and bilateral aid and have had the support of the United Nations since we joined. Indeed many United Nations agencies are undertaking vital work meriting our support. In some cases multilateral aid is the only channel available for allocating assistance, an issue that was raised before. When we had to cut back on the Overseas Development Aid budget over the years the bilateral side and suffered. The reason we maintained the multi-lateral contribution was that some of that contribution was mandatory, as Members will be aware. We have an opportunity now to change that balance and we stated that clearly in the Programme for Government. We are working closely with various United Nations agencies. For example, when I was in Sudan I observed Operation Lifeline, a particular United Nations organisation doing good work in very difficult circumstances, headed by an Irishman, Mr. Philip O'Brien. We have identified United Nations agencies doing good work with whom we can work. In many cases there is a very strong link between our agencies and international ones.

Deputy Owen referred also to the United Nations Population Fund. The very rapid population growth, particularly in developing countries, is placing enormous demands on the natural and economic resources of these countries. This challenge is being recognised increasingly at international conferences such as the Earth Summit held in Rio de Janeiro last year. In the run up to the International Conference on Population and Development to be held in Cairo in September 1994 it is appropriate that Ireland contributes to the study of the underlying reasons for the accelerating pace of population increase and its likely global consequences. As the Members of the committee will be aware, we are making a grant of £50,000 available for that purpose. Deputy Owen referred also to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Ireland signed this Convention on 29 September 1990 and ratified it on 28 September 1992 in accordance with Article 49. The Convention entered into force in Ireland on 28 October 1992. Under the terms of Article 44 of the Convention each State party undertakes to submit to the Committee on the Rights of the Child established under the Convention reports on the measures adopted to give effect to the rights contained in the Convention and progress made on the enjoyment of those rights. The initial report is to be submitted within two years of the entry into force of the Convention and further reports every five years thereafter. The first national report by Ireland is therefore due on 28 October 1994 and work on its preparation is in hand.

A number of Members, including Deputy Owen, referred to the figure of £10.8 million. This contribution is made to the European Community from central funds, not the International Co-operation Vote.

Does it form part of the figure of £53 million?

It does but it is not included in the Vote for International Co-operation, rather it is made from central funds.

Is it taken into account in calculating the percentage of 0.2 per cent of GNP?

It is. This is just a technicality. It forms part of the mandatory contributions to which I referred earlier.

A commitment is given in the Programme for Government to follow up the question of making contributions to Third World charities tax deductible. There are arrangements along these lines in other countries, for example, the United States and Britain. Research is being carried out on this matter. Indeed, discussions are already taking place with the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners to see how ths commitment can be met. The issue is not straightforward. We are examining it as a matter of urgency and hope that we will be able to incorporate it in our plan.

It is true that in the past the exchange rate regime in force in the Sudan meant that the cost to donors of their activities there was greater than it need have been. The Sudan was not alone in this respect. I am happy to say that the position has been greatly improved in the sense that more realistic exchange rates have been introduced. I shall continue to keep this question under review.

Deputy Owen also mentioned the contribution to the Council of Europe. This is a straightforward matter. It represents our contribution to the Council.

Is it based on a percentage of population, for example?

I will have to get that information for the Deputy. The issue of co-financing was also raised. Under the Department's non-governmental cofinancing scheme funding is provided to projects being undertaken by a large number of organisations active in the field in Africa, Asia and Latin America. The scheme is designed to assist small organisations in particular in areas where the bilateral assistance programme is not directly involved. In 1992, we disbursed £1.7 million to co-finance 137 projects in 29 countries. In 1993, £1.5 million has been allocated to this scheme and we have already disbursed £1 million for 77 projects in 16 countries. Final expenditure for 1993 is likely to be in excess of the 1993 figure due to savings elsewhere in the bilateral assistance programme. We are currently looking at ways to broaden the scheme to take into account the wide range and types of non-governmental organisations currently active in developing countries. I accept what the Deputy has said but I can assure her that we are anxious to pursue this matter in co-operation with other organisations. Earlier I mentioned that we are considering the possibility of doing something in Cambodia and elsewhere.

In regard to our contribution to the Council of Europe, in 1991 the Department of Foreign Affairs was responsible for the payment of Ireland's contributions to four budgets at the Council of Europe: ordinary budget, extraordinary budget, pensions budget and the European Youth Foundation. The contributions to the European Pharmacopoeia and Pompidiou Group were paid by the Department of Health. The contribution to the European Commission for Democracy Through Law was paid by the Attorney General's office. The ordinary budget is used to finance the Council's inter-governmental work programme, the functioning of the Human Rights Court and Commission and administrative and salary costs. Contributions by member states to the ordinary and pensions budgets are assessed on the basis of GNP and population. In 1991, Ireland's contribution was 0.86 per cent of the total budget. The extraordinary budget provides resources to meet annual repayments on loans contracted to finance the construction of the Council's headquarters in 1977. It was also designed to house the European Parliament.

First, I would like to ask a straightforward question. The development aid outturn last year was £40.7 million. It is my understanding that provision was made in the Estimates for the expenditure of £40.9 million. I would like to know why the balance of £200,000 was not spent. I presume there were many places where this could have been spent if the will was there.

The declared objective is to increase the number employed by APSO on various overseas schemes to 2,000 by 1997. It has been suggested that this may not be the best way to spend money. Has any research been carried out on this matter? For instance, the Minister of State mentioned in his speech that APSO has stated that it will have to extend its geographic coverage and its placements to meet the programme target. It seems it has been given a target and told to reach it with the result that it now has to search for schemes at a time when there are many other organisations with schemes that could be filled overnight if money was made available. I am not implying that the work APSO does has no value, rather I am questioning whether the money could be better spent in other areas.

Another declared objective is to increase the number of priority countries. I have no objection to this but it has been represented that there is plenty of scope for expansion in countries that already have that rating. The rule of thumb to date has been to target those things that we do well and those schemes which have been effective. Would it be more productive to increase expenditure in countries which have already been targeted given that we are not in a position to spread our resources all over the place? I would like the Minister of State to address this point. I accept that he may not be able to address all of the points that will be made today but perhaps he could take them on board.

Deputy Flaherty referred to Multilateral Trade Organisation and GATT. I understand that currently Third World countries may appeal to the United Nations if they feel that they are not getting a fair crack of the whip through GATT. Would the Minister of State outline what the Government's position is on this matter? I understand, in regard to the proposed Multilateral Trade Organisation, that developing countries will not be able to avail of the same kind of appeals mechanism. Would the Minister of State clarify this matter?

In regard to the multi-fibre quota arrangements, in reply to an earlier question the Minister of State said that there are no restrictions on ACP countries in respect of industrial products. May I take it therefore that textiles are not regarded as industrial products? The quota system in respect of textile exports to European countries, which was supposed to be an informal and short term arrangement, is extended year after year. This is an unfair restraint on under-developed countries. In one particular case countries in Europe are using the fact that labour law and legislation is not up to scratch to apply quotas and impose restrictions, whereas workers on the ground would argue that we should buy their products and let them fight for their rights. They also argue that, while they would like us to help them, they would not be helped by destroying their industry. The quota system is being abused at present. Individuals in particular countries buy quotas which they sell on to smaller manufacturers. Some individuals in Third World countries have become very wealthy from trading in quotas. Ireland should play a role in addressing this problem. People have argued that these textiles would not necessarily hurt the Irish textile industry, such as it is. It is a question of trying to find a balance between the interests of people in this country and the interests of people in the Third World.

The Minister referred to the Refugee Agency and the funding being allocated to it. There is also a group called the Refugee Council, which does not get any money. I urge the Minister to allocate some funding to the Refugee Council which deserves some assistance. I would appreciate if the Minister could indicate his intentions in this regard.

With regard to private and corporate contributions which would be tax deductible, this raises the question of whether private and corporation contributions to political parties would be tax deductible and, if they were, whether this would lead to more openness and transparency about the people who contribute to political parties. I am not advocating this; I am simply saying that this proposal raises these questions. On a more serious note, we have to be careful about going down this road, that we do not allow a situation to develop whereby certain projects will get a lot of money because they are headline projects. We have to ensure that money directed towards projects is allocated on the basis of need. Perhaps — this is an idea off the top of my head — a foundation could be set up into which money could be channeled by corporate companies. This money could then be dispensed to agencies operating on the ground. This would be a safe way of ensuring that particular countries or projects did not suddenly get very wealthy merely because it featured on television the night before. I urge the Minister to consider this approach.

My next point relates——

Chairman

Briefly, Deputy.

I will be very brief. Expenditure on the Common Agricultural Policy this year is over budget by approximately 1.7 billion ECUs — this is a huge overspend — and is expected to increase even further. Given that the EC budget is so small in any event and is very restrictive — there is no leeway — I am afraid that that over expenditure on the Common Agricultural Policy will result in cutbacks in EC expenditure in developing and underdeveloped countries, that the people least able to raise their voices within the EC will lose out. I ask the Minister to bear this in mind and to ensure that the weakest in the world will not lose out.

A figure of £120,000 is provided for the CSCE. This very important organisation has not been developed sufficiently in terms of its potential. May I ask the Minister how that mandatory contribution of 0.55 per cent contribution is assessed? I take it that it is 0.55 per cent of the total cost, which I think works out at approximately £24 million. How is the figure of £120,000 assessed? How is the £24 million spent? Are my sums correct? I understood that the CSCE had only a fraction of that amount of money available to it. If the Minister does not have the information with him I will be prepared to take it by way of written reply. I ask the Minister, if not today then at a sub-committee meeting or a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, to indicate the Government's attitude towards the development of the CSCE and the role it is playing in trying to develop the kind of idea I suggested earlier whereby the CSCE could be the umbrella organisation in Europe — I am talking about the greater Europe, not just the European Community — for the development of a common security system in Europe which would act as a regional organisation of the United Nations.

I thought the Minister would have availed of the opportunity when replying to my question on the Refugee Agency to refer to the subhead under which money is provided for assisting the Bosnian refugees in Ireland and increasing the number of refugees we take in. The Minister recently said it was intended to allow more refugees into Ireland. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has recommended that this figure should be greatly increased. Where is this provided for in the Estimate?

A sum of £10,000 was provided in last year's Estimate for the International Organisation for Migration. No allocation is made for this organisation in this year's Estimate. In view of the number of people being forced to live a migratory type of life, I ask the Minister to explain why no allocation is made for this organisation in this year's Estimate.

The Minister did not refer to a point I made in my initial contribution, that is, the need to increase our ODA in priority countries from the very low rate of 1 per cent in Tanzania and Zambia, two of the world's poorest countries, to 3 per cent or 4 per cent. It is very difficult to see how we can make a significant impact in the development of these countries when we allocate only 1 per cent of our total ODA to them. Deputy De Rossa made a broadly similar point. The Minister said that the Government will be concentrating its efforts in Africa for the foreseeable future. I find nothing wrong with that but we should have a policy aim of increasing the rate of ODA to countries like Tanzania and Zambia to 3 per cent or 4 per cent, the level of assistance given to Lesotho. Our ODA is having a greater impact on the ground in Lesotho than in Tanzania and Zambia.

The United Nations has a major role to play in developing poorer countries. The United Nations peacekeeping reserve fund, as I think it is called, is inadequate. I realised this when I visited Angola last October. The United Nations had put the wherewithal in place for an election in that country but when the losers would not accept the result the United Nations could do no more than run away, thus putting all their work at naught. Ireland should support any demand that the United Nations increase its peacekeeping reserve fund to a more realistic figure of, say, £450 million.

I wish to refer to the Lomé Agreements. The European Community has been most honourable in the level of products it has accepted under the Lomé Agreements. Agencies in other countries and continents have not been as honourable in this regard. In fact, it has been the practice in the US to offload products on to the European market. Deputy De Rossa referred to this in another context. It puts extra pressure on European countries when the US and other countries do not honour their commitment. They honoured their commitments in theory but not in practice. Will the Minister keep a close eye on the impact of GATT on the operation of the Lomé Convention? Perhaps Mr. Peter Sutherland, who is an expect in that area, will be able to exert some influence and ensure that when the US enters into agreements with Third World countries, it will honour them itself and not offload the products on the European markets. Will the Minister refer to the situation in Lesotho?

Deputy De Rossa questioned the difference between last year's Estimate and the actual expenditure. This was mainly the result of EC funds not being drawn down and these cannot be transferred elsewhere. It is always the case that there are some adjustments to the EC contribution figures. Deputy De Rossa also asked about APSO's target of 2,000 placements by 1997. To some extent I can see his point when it is put boldly like that, but the reality is that to do anything you need a plan of action to follow through. APSO has produced a comprehensive report, which I received in the past few days. Its approach is very realistic. There is a need for volunteers and there is a wish among the Irish people at large to become involved in development work in the Third World. We owe it to the public to give them the opportunity to participate and that is the motivation behind our agenda.

Deputy De Rossa also referred to the situation in Eastern Europe, but the situation in Eastern Europe cannot be compared with that in Sudan or Somalia. There is the most horrific famine and civil strife in the Sudan, Somalia and elsewhere. That does not mean that we can turn our backs on the countries in central and eastern Europe. The economies of Albania and Romania are very fragile and APSO in exploring the possibility of sending qualified personnel to help them. The bilateral aid programme which focuses on the poorer regions of Africa — as we said in our policy document, the poorest of the poor — is not alone continuing but is being expanded. Let me assure the Deputy that there is absolutely no change in our orientation in that area.

The Deputy referred also to the Multilateral Trade Organisation and GATT. I accept that there is a great deal of truth in what the Deputy says about the GATT textiles multi-fibre agreement. We in Ireland are mindful of Third World concerns when discussions take place in Brussels and elsewhere. We try to do this but the difficulty is when our self interests are affected. I will continue to try to strike a balance. Obviously this is difficult. We are a small developing nation in the European Community and we have to attend to our own needs but the multilateral trade organisation would provide a more comprehensive policing structure for world trade than exists at present under the GATT. For instance countries do not have to accept the decisions of GATT panels. A decision on the Multilateral Trade Organisation will be part of the final GATT agreement. Responsibility for the Multilateral Trade Organisation rests with the Minister for Tourism and Trade. Deputies will appreciate that it is a very complex issue and the views of our textile industry are not always supportive of concerns for the developing communities.

Deputy De Rossa was seeking detailed information on CSCE and I will try to provide it for him. The costs of CSCE meetings and activities are divided among all the participating States according to an agreed scale. Ireland's contribution to the CSCE is therefore mandatory. A procedure established at Helsinki in 1975 fixed our contribution at 0.6 per cent of the total cost. The scale has been amended several times in the past two years to take account of the additional participating states created by the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia. Ireland's contribution, as the Deputy pointed out, is now 0.55 per cent of the total cost. The expenditure from the CSCE subhead in 1993 falls into four categories: (a) payments to the budgets of the CSCE institutions; (b) costs of CSCE missions to areas of conflict or potential conflict; (c) costs of the forum for security co-operation; (d) costs of other meetings organised by the CSCE in 1993. The budget for the CSCE institutions is drawn up in advance and submitted for approval to the committee of senior officials acting on behalf of the CSCE Council of Ministers. Fifty per cent of the State's contribution each year must be paid by 1 January of that year. The following are details of the payments made from the CSCE subhead so far this year, together with the Estimates of further expenditure later in the year: Contribution to the budgets of the CSCE institutions: CSCE secretariat: IR£8,219, paid in advance in December 1992; concierge IR£4,470; conflict prevention centre: IR£3,330; office of democratic institutions: IR£4,657; High Commisioner for National Minorities: IR£1,277. This brings the sub-total to IR£13,734. Those figures represent Ireland's full contribution to the budgets of the institutions for 1993, as agreed to date. The cost of CSCE missions to areas of conflict or potential conflict is as follows: missions to KOSOVO: SANDJAC: VOJVODINA in the former Yugoslavia: IR£7,000; missions in Georgia and Moldova in the former Soviet Union: IR£2,500; sanction assistance to countries neighbouring Serbia and Montenegro: IR£3,200. These figures represent the payments to date but a further contribution will have to be made later in the year for new missions. The cost of the Forum for Security Co-operation and meetings held in September and December 1992 is IR£5,766.

Our membership of the CSCE and the rising cost of it was questioned. The rising cost of the CSCE is attributable to two factors. First is the transformation of the CSCE from a process into an international organisation with its own structures and institutions. This inevitably involves higher costs for staff, premises, administrative services and so on but our share, 0.55 per cent of the total, is very small. Second, the CSCE has now developed its role in conflict prevention and crisis management through the deployment of missions in central and eastern Europe. Given the very fluid nature of the situation in Eastern Europe it is difficult to predict accurately what the future commitments of the CSCE will be, especially in the field of investigative missions to various areas of conflict. The ongoing need for such missions in the current political climate is likely to mean that our membership of the CSCE will cost most in the future. We believe that the CSCE has an important role to play in this field and that the money spent on activities in this area is money well spent. All CSCE states, including Ireland, attach a high priority to ensuring the maximum efficiency and cost effectiveness of CSCE institutions and activities. We are constantly seeking to limit the expenditure involved to the minimum necessary. The appointment of a fulltime Secretary General, who took office last month, will help considerably to improve the organisational efficiency of the CSCE. As Members know, we are stong supporters of the CSCE and this is very clearly outlined in the Programme for Government.

We contribute to the International Organisation for Migration, IOM, for particular items of expenditure rather than making an annual assessed contribution. Previously, our contributions were primarily to refund the organisation for airfares for Vietnamese refugees coming to Ireland. No such specific item arises in 1993. Ireland has recently become an observer member of the IOM and hopes to play a more prominent role in the organisation in the future.

Deputy De Rossa referred to the refugee agency. I am concerned that we do our share for the welfare of refugees. The agency is established by the Government to carry out certain functions in respect of the settlement of refugees. It is fully funded from the Vote for international co-operation. The refugee council is a voluntary body established by a number of NGOs. It is not clear that the question of a subvention for the council is a matter for the Foreign Affairs Vote.

What Department has responsibility for it?

The Minister for Justice has been dealing with this matter.

Under what subhead is the refugee agency covered?

There is a difference in that these are people who come into the country and there are all sorts of problems. This matter has been handled by the Department of Justice and we are in constant contact with them. There have been difficulties with the refugee council and I understand they are being reconstituted. Certainly it is a matter we will continue to pursue.

Deputy Owen raised a query concerning the money for the refugee council. This money comes from the Votes of different Departments, the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of the Environment and so on. The Department of Foreign Affairs will pay transport costs and other Departments will meet the necessary costs from their own funds.

Under what subhead is the money provided for transport?

It is provided under subhead E — emergency humanitarian assistance.

I would remind the Minister of State that I asked about the over-expenditure on Common Agricultural Policy out of the EC budget and the position the Irish Government will take in ensuring that funding for EC aid to developing countries is not cut as a result.

The Common Agricultural Policy budget is likely to be overspent because of the devaluation of the green pound. There will be cutbacks in some areas which could possibly include development aid.

Can the Minister give a commitment that he will fight to ensure there is no cutback in development aid?

We will do our best to protect development aid.

Chairman

That concludes the consideration by the Select Committee of the Estimates for the Department of Foreign Affairs. I now wish to report formally on your behalf the following terms: The Select Committee has considered the Estimates for the Public Services 1993 for the Department of Foreign Affairs and the other Estimates relevant to that Department. The Estimates are hereby reported to Dáil Éireann. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I wish to pay tribute to the excellent services of the staff who are playing a blinder and to our worthy VIPs in the gallery who remained with us all day. We know there are people in the Visitors Gallery who are interested in this debate and we thank them.

Chairman

I share that expression of thanks by Deputy Owen. This is the first occasion on which we have had such an Estimates consideration and I thank the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, and the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, and their officials for their full and punctual attendance throughout the debate today and for their co-operation at all stages in the formation of this committee and the general committee which I know will be continued.

On behalf of the Minister of State and myself, and our officials — I am not sure whether I am entitled to speak for the officials on this occasion — we appreciate those remarks. From the outset we have set out to approach this committee from a positive point of view. An issue raised today was the question of an input from the committee in relation to decisions made by Irish Ministers and representatives at foreign international bodies and fora. The United Nations General Assembly meets in September. I will be proposing that we meet the committee in September, before we go to the United Nations, to examine the issues that will arise at the General Assembly so that there will be an input from the committee. We welcome that input which is in everybody's interest in the context of the ongoing development of foreign policy.

I thank you, Chairman, for your courtesy.

The Select Committee adjourned at 2.55 p.m.

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