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Select Committee on Foreign Affairs debate -
Wednesday, 4 Dec 1996

Election of Chairman.

Clerk to the Committee

I have been informed by Deputy Alan Dukes that he is resigning as Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. There is, therefore, a vacancy for that position. I ask for nominations for the position of Chairman.

I propose Deputy Shatter.

Clerk of the Committee

As there are no other nominations, I call Deputy Shatter to take the Chair.

Estimates 1996.

Vote 39 — International Co-Operation [Supplementary]

Chairman

I thank colleagues for electing me Chairman. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, to the meeting which will deal with Vote 39 of the Department of Foreign Affairs Estimate. I suggest we conclude the meeting in an hour and a quarter and that we have opening statements of ten minutes, followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I congratulate you on your election. I hope you bring your usual attention to detail and commitment to the Chair.

The proposed Supplementary Estimate of £1 million will increase the funds available for spending on emergency humanitarian assistance from the Vote for international co-operation. This will bring to £8 million the funds available for emergency relief this year. The details are as follow: the original provision in subhead E, £5.5 million; a virement from subhead F, £1.5 million; Supplementary Estimate E(1), lottery funds, £1 million. I arranged the necessary approval for the virement of £1.5 million from subhead F to subhead E of the Vote for international co-operation when it became evident that humanitarian relief efforts would be required on an exceptional scale. These funds had been set aside for the European development fund, EDF, but were not required in 1996 due to delayed implementation of the relevant programmes. The Supplementary Estimate is required in order to give effect to the Government decision to allocate in addition £1 million of lottery funds for this purpose which will be drawn down from a new subhead E(1).

The purpose of the Supplementary Estimate is to enable the Government to increase further its support for humanitarian relief efforts in the Great Lakes region. It would be appropriate, however, to begin by referring to the fundamental political problems that underly the complex humanitarian crisis in the region. There is a general recognition that there are fundamental political issues at the core of the problem and that a humanitarian response alone will not be sufficient to bring a lasting solution. At a political level, efforts are continuing to broker dialogue between Zaire and Rwanda. As I have advised the committee before, the EU special representative, Mr. Ajello, is in the region. He met General Mobutu in the last 48 hours and is currently returning to the region. It remains the strong view of the EU that the difficult problems at issue will be resolved only by dialogue.

In regard to the long term perspective, there is a need for a comprehensive approach to address the many problems involved. We saw in 1994 that a humanitarian solution alone is not enough. That lesson has been well learned and there is a strong dynamic in favour of a broader approach. The current crisis provides a new context within which the complex problems can be addressed. That is why the EU supports the concept of the international conference on peace, security and development under the aegis of the UN and the OAU. The process which was begun by the heads of State of the region, in this regard Burundi with Mr. Julius Nyerere in the role of mediator, could serve as a precursor for such a conference. The holding of such a conference would be a priority for the EU in the period ahead. That said, however, I do not think we can go into such a conference unless we are fairly sure what we want from it, as it would have to be successful in bringing the different parties together.

As Members of the committee will be aware, the dimensions of the humanitarian crisis are extremely challenging. The Great Lakes region has been in crisis since the genocide in Rwanda two years ago. An estimated 600,000 refugees returned home to Rwanda from Zaire during November; this has relieved one part of the problem but it has also created a new need to provide assistance to support the reintegration of the returnees and to secure their safety. The situation of the Rwandan refugees and displaced Zaireans in eastern Zaire is precarious and attempts to address this part of the problem may have to be in the context of the proposed intervention force. Following initial confusion there is now an emerging consensus that refugee numbers in the area may be in the region of 360,000.

I can only reiterate my view that there has been an obscene debate about the numbers. The UNHCR originally said there were 700,000, based on the numbers they had in the camps; the Government of Rwanda has said all along that the numbers were much smaller. There is now agreement that the numbers were 360,000 plus or minus 10 per cent but that is still a vast number of people. The number has halved, which in one sense is a good thing, but there is still a huge humanitarian crisis to which we must respond. Aid agencies are concentrating their efforts on locating these refugees so we can respond to their needs. Deputies will be aware that today the Dáil passed the necessary motion on the participation of Ireland in the multinational force.

The vast majority of returned refugees have gone to their home communes within Rwanda. The UNHCR is registering returnees in their communes and distributing non-food items. The World Food Programme, working with NGOs, has started large scale deliveries of food and non-food essential items at commune level to alleviate the immediate suffering of the refugees.

The position in Burundi continues to be extremely difficult and it will be extremely difficult for Burundian refugees in Zaire to return home, even though their position in Zaire is precarious. The large numbers of refugees in Tanzania are in a less difficult position. The Tanzanians have agreed that there are 400,000 refugees in their country and the Rwandan Government accepts that figure also. The refugees have inquired about going home and have been selling their goods in Tanzania. All the signs of another mass movement are there. That will mean a total of 1 million people will have returned to Rwanda in the space of two months.

A major international effort is under way to respond to the humanitarian needs related to this crisis. The relevant international organisations — the UNHCR, the Red Cross, the World Food Programme, UNICEF, the UN High Commission for Human Rights and NGOs, prominent among whom are a number of Irish NGOs — are involved in these efforts.

The Irish EU Presidency has taken a leading role in the co-ordination of humanitarian aid; for instance, I convened a special meeting of development Ministers about one month ago at which, for the first time, the head of the UNHCR, Mrs. Ogata, the heads of the DHA, the Red Cross, the World Food Programme and the other big players, were all present to discuss with EU Ministers how to co-ordinate this response. Because of that it has been somewhat better, although hampered by a severe lack of certain resources, such as lorries.

The Government has provided over £9.5 million to the Great Lakes region since 1994, including £2.5 already spent in the region this year. This represents the largest ever allocation of emergency assistance by Ireland in response to any crisis. In addition, the Government has committed a further £2.25 million which is in the process of being disbursed. The proposed Supplementary Estimate will provide the funds for some of these additional allocations.

The latest allocations, like previous ones, will be distributed principally through international aid organisations and Irish NGOs. The activities funded will include measures to support the resettlement of returning refugees within Rwanda, support for the general development of Rwanda for the benefit of all Rwandans, attempts to assist refugees and displaced persons in eastern Zaire and support for human rights monitoring in the region.

In the longer term there will be support for efforts to promote reconciliation and democratic development in the region as well as assistance for the rehabilitation of physical and institutional infrastructure. I have put particular emphasis on the need for housing shelter because the returning refugees are being guaranteed access to their houses. That means that in some cases genocide victims have to leave the houses to make way for people who may have been involved in the genocide. Housing is tremendously important in terms of the humanitarian situation but also in terms of a political move towards reconciliation among the different groups in Rwanda.

I hope the committee will favour the strongest possible role by Ireland in support of relief and reconciliation efforts in the Great Lakes area and that a favourable view will be taken of the proposed Supplementary Estimate.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I suggest, if Members were agreeable, that there be an opening statement by one Member from each party and then we would have questions, answers and comments. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Burke sends his apologies as he is dealing with another matter in the House. I welcome the Minister's statement and the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate of £1 million. The absorption of 1 million people into Rwanda within two months is a massive undertaking. This influx means that the country must have become the biggest refugee camp in the world and, from that point of view, a great deal of aid will be needed. Every time a crisis has arisen in Rwanda in the last few years, the world has acted in a state of panic. Our experience of international refugee problems should by now be such that we — by which I mean the UN of which we are a member — should have a better system for springing into action. The problems always arise suddenly. What we need is an international police force. This matter was debated in the House this morning and I do not want to go over that ground again.

The Constitution requires us to vote specifically on whether our forces should go to an international area, in this case Rwanda. These forces should be always available and we should have a list of volunteers. Time lost means lives lost. On many occasions during this crisis food was available but it was too far from the people who needed it. Governments play political games, looking for their share of the loot before they allow people to get the food and distribute it. We must have a system in place so that in a crisis we will be able to mobilise our resources to deal with it.

I congratulate the Minister, who has done, and has been seen to do, a good job. This issue highlights the usefulness of a Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs because it enables Members to have an input. Unlike the old days, it is not a matter of just putting down a question and asking supplementaries. The committee has been effective and the Minister knows she will always have our full co-operation in this regard.

(Laoighis-Offaly): Aspects of this issue were debated in the Dáil this morning and the debate on the Great Lakes region is ongoing. I support the Supplementary Estimate which deals with the transfer of unspent money which was set aside for the European Development Fund amounting to £1.5 million and the allocation from the national lottery. We tend to be critical of the lottery and the disbursement of its funds but the public supports the concept of giving a contribution from its proceeds to help with humanitarian disasters, for example, in Rwanda and Zaire.

That is not to say I would not like to see money spent in the European Development Fund. However, given that its programmes have not been implemented as planned, it is right to reconsider how best the money can be used. There would be no disagreement on its use for humanitarian relief.

It may well be asked if the current debate on Rwanda involves the same issues as that of two years ago. The public may get the impression that this region of Africa experiences such disasters as a natural phenomenon. In my visit to the region last year I was surprised to find that, unlike many other areas of Africa, this region is not infertile. Given peace and the necessary assistance the region could provide a satisfactory standard of living for the majority of people there.

Famine or other disasters in less fertile or arid areas tend to be attributed to the climate or to the people. This case has shown that these disasters arise from political actions. The debate on the issue over the past couple of years has led to a much wider understanding that this problem was political and must be responded to as such. We must do everything possible to mitigate the effects on the refugees and the others affected by the current events. The long-term solution must be political and we know better than anyone that political solutions can take time to implement.

I compliment the Minister of State, Commissioner Bonino and their EU colleagues for work they have done in this respect. Some people have been dismissive of the efforts of Mr. Ajello and others and have expressed frustration at the slow pace of international diplomacy. However, the only other option is to have a recurrence of these disasters. We have given £9.5 million to the region since 1994 and nobody would disagree with such aid. However, we wish our contribution to be used to build schools, hospitals and roads, in short, to improve the lives of the people so that they may live in peace. I commend the Minister of State's efforts and I urge her to persist in trying to find a political solution.

This conflict did not begin in 1994; it goes back to colonial times when the Germans and the Belgians ruled the area. The French have taken an interest, which has not been benign, since the country became independent. I recently read Mr. Feargal Keane's book and the account of his experiences in Rwanda are not only touching and revealing but give an insight into the political build up to the genocide. We must ensure that cannot happen again. To ensure this our assistance to the rehabilitation of Rwanda and the resettlement of the refugees who return will be important.

Also important will be the political contact we maintain with the Rwandan Government. It is easy to criticise it, in some cases justifiably. However, by being active in assisting the rebuilding of the country we will find that our voice has more weight than some of the greater powers whose interest in the region is more malign. I hope we can continue to provide assistance for the rehabilitation effort in Rwanda.

If the breakdown of Zaire continues it will result in our having to provide more humanitarian relief. We must not forget the honourable part Tanzania played in receiving the refugees but Tanzania did not get the international support and recognition it deserves.

We have talked about the reconstruction of the justice system in Rwanda. We have been critical of the fact that the tribunal sits outside Rwanda and that it has been very slow to get into action. There are about 80,000 people being held in bad conditions in Rwanda. If refugees return, some of whom are identified as serious perpetrators of the genocide in 1994, the problems will be exacerbated. What discussions are taking place to ensure this important matter is addressed?

There are currently about 85,000 people detained in the prisons in Rwanda. I visited three prisons and there is inhuman overcrowding in them. Water, food and medical supplies are provided by organisations such as the Red Cross. A new law has been passed in Rwanda which puts genocide into three categories: the first category applies to the instigators and planners of the genocide, for whom the severest penalties are reserved and the other two categories are for those who may have been involved in killing but were not planners or instigators; in some cases, they may have been swept up in it. The proposal is that they would be tried and would be subject to lesser penalties, for instance, five years imprisonment.

With the Dutch Government we have funded over the last year a number of conferences in Rwanda on the justice system and on genocide at which people from, for examples, South Africa, Israel, El Salvador and Ethiopia attended — countries which have experienced genocide or large scale killings. They gave their experiences of how they dealt with the aftermath from a judicial point of view. The outcome has been to create a commission of sorts where people can voluntarily come forward and confess their involvement in killing. If they do so they will receive a substantially reduced penalty. This would apply to the two lesser categories.

It is important that the justice system begins to operate. One of the great failures of the UN system has been the international tribunal. As in the case of Bosnia, the tribunal has not answered the demands for justice of those whose families have been slaughtered. We and the Netherlands, in particular, have given great financial support to both tribunals but I am disappointed with the result. I hope that whoever becomes UN Secretary General will prioritise this area for two reasons. First, to give victims a sense of some kind of justice, even if it is limited and, second, to act as a deterrent to people who may feel they can do this with impunity. We will continue to pressurise the Rwandan Government to improve its justice system. It now recognises that the judicial system cannot accept that one million people were killed, often by their neighbours, and that something must be done to bring the instigators of that to justice.

The Government is attempting to use its position to ensure that the international tribunal functions more quickly and effectively. We also want to ensure that people from European Union countries who must go before either the tribunal in Rwanda or in Arusha do so. We are talking about the crime of genocide. It is set out in various UN conventions and the international community, including every European Union country, should make an effort to ensure they are not party to genocide.

Arms trading in the Great Lakes region is another issue which must be addressed by the European Union. Perhaps the committee could discuss this at a later date because it is fundamental. We were all shocked at the sight of invoices belonging to a British company blowing around on the scrap heaps in Mugunga camp. Most of the killing in Rwanda was by machete not by sophisticated weaponry. However, the large scale provision of armaments in the region is a cause of further instability. International determination and effort, not money, are required to ensure this does not continue.

More than 70 per cent of the population of Rwanda are women and children because many men have been killed. People have seen the work done by Concern and Trócaire in tracing orphan children and trying to reunite them with their families. Because so many men have been killed it is a country of widows who do not have title to property. That is another element of the justice system which does not function properly. If they and their children want to survive, they will need access to their husband's property. It is a complicated situation.

The Minister mentioned the British invoices blowing around Mugunga camp which suggested that British companies — Belgian and French companies probably did the same -sent arms to this region. The international community must introduce laws so that such people can be charged with complicity in war crimes. People who supply arms to these parts of the world are as guilty of war crimes as those who perpetrate acts of genocide. Governments which stand in the way of urgent aid being administered because they are awaiting monetary benefits from the international community should also be charged with complicity in war crimes. Unless the international community agrees to adopt such an approach, there will never be an improvement in the way people behave towards each other. Many people wash their hands of any involvement in these situations.

Report of Select Committee.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for coming here today. I am delighted we are participating in the multinational force. This country has a specific role in this regard in addition to our humanitarian role which we will continue to play. The political complexity of resolving the difficulties in this area will be with us for some time. We will need to continue our humanitarian involvement in the Great Lakes region for a number of years.

The other important issue which has been discussed in relation to Rwanda and Bosnia is the need to devise a justice system at international level with a world court which is in permanent session and before which those guilty of genocide and war crimes can be brought so that people feel justice will be done within a reasonable period of time. We have seen in Rwanda and Bosnia the difficulties in trying to bring people to justice who are still playing a role in an area to whose destruction they have greatly contributed.

We are now obliged to report back to Dáil Éireann on the Supplementary Estimate in respect of Vote 39, international co-operation. I propose that the following report be made to the Dáil:

That the Select Committee has considered the Supplementary Estimate for the services of the year ending 31 December 1996 in respect of Vote 39 — International Co-operation. This Supplementary Estimate is hereby reported to the Dáil.

Report agreed to.

Ordered to report to the Dáil accordingly.

The Select Committee adjourned at 5.10 p.m.

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