Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 2019

Vote 36 - Defence (Revised)

Chairman

I welcome members and viewers who may be watching the proceedings on Oireachtas TV. On 19 December the Dáil ordered that the Revised Estimates for public services for the following Votes be referred to the select committee for consideration: Vote 27 - International Co-operation; Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs and Trade; Vote 35 - Army Pensions; and Vote 36 - Defence. Today the committee will consider the Estimates for Votes 35 and 36 and report back to the Dáil. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach with special responsibility for defence matters, Deputy Kehoe, who is accompanied by his officials. I thank the Department for providing briefing material in advance of the meeting.

The proposed format is that the committee deal with the Votes on a programme-by-programme basis. The Minister of State will give an overview of each programme, outlining the pressures likely to impact on the Department's performance or expenditure on the programme in 2019. The floor will then be opened to members to ask questions. I ask that they put their questions about the specific programme in order that we can progress in an orderly and efficiently manner.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or body or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind them to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode as they interfere with the sound system, even when left in silent mode, and make it difficult for the parliamentary reporters to report the proceedings. They can also adversely affect television coverage and web-streaming of the meeting.

Members received briefing documents on the Revised Estimates. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I welcome the opportunity to engage with the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence to consider the 2019 Revised Estimates for Vote 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence. I have a short opening statement which sets out the overall position. I will update members on some of the main developments within the defence sector in recent times.

There are two Votes for the defence sector: Vote 35 - Army Pensions and Vote 36 - Defence. The high-level goal is to "provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government". Accordingly, defence sector outputs are delivered under a single programme in each Vote.

The combined Estimates for defence and Army pensions for 2019 provide for gross expenditure in excess of €1 billion, which represents an increase of €60 million or 6.4% on the figure for 2018. The 2019 provision comprises €758 million for Vote 36, which represents an increase of over €50 million, and €249 million for Vote 35, which represents an increase of €10 million.

The Army pensions Vote has a single programme entitled Provision for Defence Forces Pension Benefits. It makes provision for retired pay, pensions, allowances and gratuities payable to, or in respect of, former members of the Defence Forces and their dependants. Retirement pensions, gratuities and disability pensions account for 99% of all expenditure. The 2019 Estimate provides for a gross sum of over €249 million for the Army pensions Vote, of which some €239 million covers expenditure on all superannuation benefits for former members of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, and certain dependants. For the most part, pension benefits granted are statutory entitlements once certain criteria are met.

There are approximately 12,480 pensioners who are paid from the Army pensions Vote. During 2018 approximately 340 Defence Forces members retired on pension. It is anticipated that a broadly similar number will retire in 2019.

As the committee is aware, it has been my stated intention to seek extra funding for military pensions as part of the overall future budgetary negotiations. Solid progress has been made on that front. As announced in budget 2019, the gross allocation for Army pensions this year has been increased by €10 million to approximately €249 million, which is very welcome. It builds on a increase in funding of €9.5 million in the 2018 Estimates.

The 2018 review of Defence Forces pensions expenditure which was published with budget 2019 was carried out as part of the 2018 round of spending reviews and undertaken jointly by officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and my Department. Among other things, it concluded that the underlying trend of rising military pensioner numbers was likely to be maintained in the coming years. It recommended that the Army pensions Vote be allocated resources in line with its cost analysis from 2019 onwards to ensure the full funding demands were met.

I turn to Vote 36 - Defence, which is delivered under a single programme entitled Defence Policy and Support, Military Capabilities and Operational Outputs. The defence Vote for 2019 of €758 million includes a pay and allowances allocation of approximately €529 million, while the remaining non-pay allocation of €229 million provides mainly for the renewal and maintenance of essential equipment, infrastructure and standing and operational costs.

The pay and allowances allocation of €529 million provides for the pay and allowances of over 10,400 public service employees, including 9,500 PDF personnel, 550 civilian employees and 355 civil servants, and makes provision for increases due under the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020. The agreement contains proposals for increases in pay, ranging from 6.2% to 7.4%, over its lifetime. By the end of 2020, the pay of all those who earn less than €70,000 will be restored to pre-FEMPI levels.

There has been ongoing recruitment within the Defence Forces in recent years, at both enlisted personnel and officer level. It includes general service recruits, apprentices, cadets and direct entry officers. The current recruitment plan envisages approximately 800 new entrants being inducted across the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service this year. These recruits will avail of the highest levels of training and, in return, the Defence Forces will benefit from the injection of energy and enthusiasm that every organisation, particularly the Defence Forces, needs. Promotions are also ongoing within the Defence Forces, with approximately 600 promotions across all areas of the Defence Forces in 2018, meaning that one in 14 serving members is promoted.

In 2017, under my direction, the Department of Defence brought the issues of recruitment and retention in the Permanent Defence Force to the attention of the Public Service Pay Commission. The Department has provided data, as requested by the commission, for consideration and the commission's work is ongoing. My Department will continue to engage throughout the process.

The budget allocation includes over €2 million for Reserve Defence Force pay in 2019. This will allow for 26,000 training days for reservists this year. I acknowledge and appreciate the commitment and enthusiasm of Reserve Defence Force members who provide voluntary service throughout the country. The Department's White Paper is clear that there is a continued requirement to retain and develop the Reserve Defence Force. A key ongoing challenge for the force is recruiting and retaining personnel. Two recruitment campaigns for the Army Reserve and the Naval Service Reserve are planned this year - one in March and the second in October.

The non-pay allocation comprises both current and capital elements. The current expenditure allocation of €123 million in 2019 provides mainly for expenditure in meeting ongoing Defence Forces standing and operational costs such as utilities, fuel, catering, maintenance, information technology and training.

The capital expenditure allocation for Vote 36 in 2019 has been increased to €106 million, which represents an increase of €29 million or 38% on the 2018 allocation. It will allow the defence organisation to undertake a programme of sustained equipment replacement and infrastructural development across the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service, as identified and prioritised in the White Paper on Defence. Among the main equipment programme priorities planned in 2019 are the ongoing upgrade of the Army Mowag armoured personnel carriers, the replacement of the Air Corps Cessna aircraft, the purchase of military transport vehicles and the mid-life refit of Naval Service vessels.

The Government is committed to ensuring that the Defence Forces built infrastructure continues to be enhanced and modernised and to that end the Defence Vote makes provision for increased investment in this area, with more than €28 million allocated for 2019, an increase of almost €5 million, or 20.6%. A number of projects planned for 2019, which are progressing on a phased basis, will upgrade and maintain the infrastructure essential for the Defence Forces. The overall capital allocation of €541 million for Defence for the period 2018 to 2022, as set out in the national development plan, NDP, emphasises the importance attached by this Government to ensuring that the Defence Forces have the capability necessary to deliver on all the roles assigned by Government. This funding will play a vital role in ensuring that the priorities identified in the White Paper can be met and that the Defence Forces can deliver fully across all roles.

I will now outline some of the key roles and outputs delivered under the defence programme. The Defence Forces continue to make a considerable contribution in their international peace and security role. As of February 2019, Ireland was contributing 673 Permanent Defence Force personnel to nine missions throughout the world. In addition, personnel are deployed to a range of international organisations and national representations. The main overseas missions in which Defence Forces personnel are currently deployed are the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, with 458 personnel, and the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, UNDOF, in Syria, with 136 personnel. Up until recently, Irish troops served as part of a joint Irish-Finnish Battalion in UNIFIL, including a small Estonian platoon. Due to other national commitments, both Finland and Estonia withdrew from the Irish-Finnish battalion in UNIFIL in November 2018. As an interim measure, an additional contingent of approximately 106 Defence Forces personnel have been deployed to the UNIFIL mission to cover the backfilling of the Finnish contingent for a 12-month period. This additional commitment will continue throughout 2019 as Ireland has assumed full duties and responsibilities of IRISHBATT up to November 2019. Efforts to source a partner country to replace the Finnish contingent are progressing well.

Since October 2017, the Naval Service has been participating in the EU naval mission, Operation Sophia, which specifically seeks to counter human trafficking and smuggling in the southern central Mediterranean. The question of a further deployment to Operation Sophia in the Mediterranean in 2019 is being considered in the context of the ongoing situation in the Mediterranean and the overall EU response thereto; the demands on the Defence Forces; our overseas commitments; and available resources. The Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána have primary responsibility for Ireland's domestic security supported, as required, by the Defence Forces as part of their aid to the civil power function. This role is multifaceted and in 2018 included a varied set of tasks such as Garda air support missions, Central Bank security guards, prisoner escorts, explosive ordnance disposal call-outs and Naval Service diving operations.

The Defence Forces also provide assistance to the principal response agencies tasked with responding to major emergencies. For example, in 2018, the Defence Forces were deployed on a number of missing person searches, the Naval Service conducted fisheries boardings and the Air Corps undertook a number of emergency aeromedical support missions. The professional competence shown by the Defence Forces in undertaking these roles is greatly valued and appreciated by all stakeholders and was further illustrated by the extensive and wide-ranging assistance provided in response to the severe weather emergency last March.

The Civil Defence is also funded from the Defence Vote and remains a vital component within each local authority's emergency response arrangements. Volunteers from Civil Defence have responded very effectively when required, most notably during the aforementioned weather emergency. I have secured an additional €500,000 from the Dormant Accounts Fund in 2019 which will be used to enhance the Civil Defence four-wheel drive capability. This will ensure that Civil Defence continues to perform its core function of supporting the principal response agencies as set down in the 2015 White Paper on Defence.

The allocation of more than €1 billion for the defence sector for 2019 emphasises the importance attached by the Government to ensuring that the Defence Forces have the resources necessary to deliver on all roles assigned by Government, both at home and overseas, and demonstrates the Government’s commitment to ensuring that the Defence Forces have the capabilities necessary to deliver on all their assigned roles.

Members have been provided with briefing material on the individual subheads for the defence and Army pensions Estimates and I look forward to positive engagement on any issues they may wish to discuss.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed presentation. I ask members to pose questions in the format for each programme.

Deputy Jack Chambers

Vote 36 includes an allocation of €529 million for pay and allowances. The Minister of State mentioned a Permanent Defence Force strength of 9,500. Is he confident that a strength of 9,500 will be reached and thus that €529 million will be required? If not, where will any surplus be diverted to? There is concern within the Defence Forces that the cost of pay is cannibalising the overall defence budget. Will the Minister of State clarify if there are any planned military-specific allowance increases? In a previous session I asked if there was a review under way of the terms and conditions of recruitment. I would like clarification on whether a review is under way, or a delay in that regard, of the terms and conditions of recruitment in the context of the current recruitment phase for the RDF and the Naval Service Reserve.

In regard to the Defence Forces budget, in our discussions in this area last year it was mentioned that the budget is reducing or stagnant in real terms. I would like the Minister of State to comment on that. Regarding moving the deadline for the Public Service Pay Commission to report, when does the Minister of State expect that to happen?

In regard to Operation Sophia, the Minister of State said that overseas commitments are subject to available resources. Are available resources likely to compromise any future operations or is he confident that he has an appropriate allocation in that regard?

I would like to know the underspend and overspend in capital last year and how it has fed into the projections for this year. What was the projected allocation and the underspend or overspend for current expenditure? What was the underspend or overspend for pay year-on-year? We need to know if money allocated last year is feeding into the allocation for this year or if it was returned to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Exchequer.

In regard to CASA replacement and the funding for PC12s, is funding to meet this cost being diverted from any other budget and, if so, will the Minister of State clarify it is not affecting recruitment plans? We have had a significant debate on Project Ireland 2040. The Minister of State mentioned the NDP in his opening statement. The cost of the children's hospital has overrun by a significant amount. He mentioned a €541 million allocation. Has he been approached or have there been any formal discussions between his officials and officials in other Departments about the defence capital allocation being affected by the children's hospital overrun? Will he clarify that the €541 million he mentioned is not affected in any way?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

In regard to the children's hospital overrun, the defence budget will not be affected in any way. In regard to CASA replacement, we are not diverting funding from any other budget. Regarding the capital overspend, I do not have that information to hand but I will have it forwarded to the Deputy. On Operation Sophia, there is a review under way of the mission. The UN has granted an extension of the mission. When I get a full brief on that, I will make a decision.

I will be in New York at the end of March to meet Mr. Jean-Pierre Lacroix, UN Under-Secretary General, and that is one of the items on the agenda.

The Secretary General, the Chief of Staff and personnel from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform met the Low Pay Commission this morning. I will get a full update from my officials on that meeting this evening. I do not want to be specific about a timeline or tie myself down to it because the commission is fully independent. It is not up to me to tell it when to report. Nor is it a matter for the Minister for Finance and for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, to tell the commission when to report. I would, however like to hear as soon as possible. The commission has a job of work to do. I am aware there is a huge amount of work going on. There are face-to-face interviews and an online questionnaire for members of the Defence Forces.

There is no delay whatsoever in recruitment. A recruitment competition planned for the Defence Forces envisages some 800 new entrants being inducted across all services and competitions in 2019. The Naval Service general service competition closed on Monday, 21 January 2019, with 969 applications currently being processed. The cadetship general service recruitment competition will commence shortly. The aircraft apprentice technician competition is expected to launch in quarter one, but details are yet to be confirmed. The Naval Service continues to recruit direct entry officers for bridge watchkeeping, marine engineering and electrical engineering roles. The Defence Forces are also accepting applications from qualified doctors for careers in the medical corps.

In addition to traditional recruitment methods, a range of alternative recruitment approaches are being developed. These are aimed at addressing vacancies in specialist areas. A scheme has been introduced that permits former officers with a specialist skill set to re-enter the Permanent Defence Force. Arrangements are in train to provide a similar scheme for former enlisted personnel. This will take legislative changes. Currently there is a direct entry provision for those with professional qualifications, which is utilised in the recruitment of medical officers and engineers. A working group is examining the scope for greater use of such direct entry recruitment for certain specialist positions.

The recruitment process is carried out by the Defence Forces. They are responsible for promoting the competitions and the processing of applications. The military authorities advise that targeted medical campaigns using traditional methods of social media, cinema and print will continue to be used in the upcoming recruitment campaigns. An additional €50,000 has been allocated in 2019 for recruitment advertising campaigns. This will bring the total up to €295,000. A variety of recruitment initiatives will be undertaken throughout the year, including local and national outreach events to attract young people to the competition process. The recruitment process itself is monitored and appraised on a continuous basis to ensure it remains fit for purpose.

To complement this approach, it has been decided that the Department of Defence, in conjunction with the military authorities, will review all elements of this process. This work is in the very early planning stages. I have looked for a review of the overall recruitment process - similar to the review I had carried out for the conciliation and arbitration scheme - where an independent person who has absolutely no involvement in the Department or with the military will come in to look at the process in an objective way. I believe it is very important that we look at this by bringing people in from outside. If there are lessons to be learned it is important to have such a review.

The most important issue from the recruitment perspective is that there is funding for 9,500 Defence Forces personnel in total. Under the public service stability agreement we are fully funded for all pay increases, support and operational costs, an increase in capital spend on essential equipment and infrastructure up to €29 million, with an additional €10 million for Army pensions, to fully fund the Vote.

This has been something I have wanted to address since my appointment in 2016 because I was quite concerned that there was a shortfall in the pensions Vote. I am delighted a commitment last year from the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, which he fulfilled, means that we were fully funded for the pension deficit. There will be no delay on recruitment whatsoever and I will come back to the Deputy on the other issues. All savings arising will be retained within the defence budget. When I come back later in the year with Revised Estimates I will then set out exactly where that will go. We are spending more than €1 billion on defence. This is the first time ever that we went over €1 billion. It shows the commitment by Government. We absolutely have challenges and we will continue to have challenges, as does every other Department and organisation.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

There are a number of areas where the Estimate is below what the outturn was in 2018 or 2017. I find this odd because these are in some of the areas we have been talking about, for example, barracks and engineering in subhead A12. The uniforms and clothing total is just under €2 million below the previous figures. The Defence Forces communication and information technology subhead, which we have discussed in the context of cybersecurity, is €3 million below the previous year's spend. Military education and training is €500,000 below what was spent in the previous year. It applies also to the Defence Vote for logistics and travel.

Subhead A18 relates to the Defence Forces medical and healthcare support with a substantial increase. The logic for that €4 million is that they have shifted something that previously came under civilian support into the medical and healthcare area. This is an accounting process. Does subhead A18 cover all of the psychiatrists? There is a problem with regard to not being able to employ psychiatrists directly and having to get outside consultancy. Is this cost accounted for in the €7 million that has been set aside for drugs, dressings, equipment and professional consultants? Theoretically the Department has taken €4 million from subhead A7 - Defence Forces civilian support, and given it to subhead A18. This suggests that if things had stood as they were, it would have meant a substantial increase of €6.5 million this year in the pay and allowances for civilian staff and not the €2.5 million indicated. This substantial amount is not fully explained. Obviously there is some provision since there are more than 500 civilians working in the Defence Forces.

I shall now turn to Naval Service expenditure on equipment and support. For some reason last year was an exceptional year because it had peaked but it has dropped back. Was this because of new equipment being more efficient and, if so, why was it so high last year? Given that Irish Naval Service vessels are continuously on Operation Sophia in the Mediterranean Sea, I would have expected that the figures for the purchase of fuel and lubricants, specialist training and so on would remain much the same. I find that odd.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Deputy asked some very technical questions and I will provide a detailed written answer if that is acceptable. I do not have the full information to hand and, therefore, I will provide him with a full reply in writing.

The number of civilians employed has dropped considerably over the years, with a marked decrease during the economic downturn. The recruitment of civilian employees for military installations is an ongoing process based on a combination of the filling of consequential vacancies, which have arisen due to promotions or retirements, and the filling of priority vacancies on the basis of identified requirements. A programme of targeted recruitment has been in place to fill priority vacancies. In 2018, eight civilian appointments were filled by external competition, while 17 were filled by internal competition. As of December 2018, an additional 39 candidates were undergoing security and medical clearance prior to appointment. There were 47 retirements or resignations and no deaths in service, and no redundance packages were paid out in 2018.

The Naval Service equipment and expenses cost €2 million, the maintenance of vessels cost €6.3 million, marine fuel and lubricants cost €3.7 million, specialised training cost €167,000, while miscellaneous costs were €723,000, accounting for a total of €13 million. There was no major change from the previous year, except fuel costs. The outturn for 2017 was €13.7 million, while in 2018 it was €17 million but that can be explained by increases in the cost of fuel and so on.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Some €4 million is a substantial increase between the two Estimates. I am not querying it but it is odd because I had presumed that the same level of activity within the Naval Service would lead to similar costs. If there had been a small drop on a continuous basis-----

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It depends on the level of operation during the year. As the Deputy will know, the price per litre of fuel rose substantially in 2018.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The chaplaincy and clergymen provide a valuable service that helps many of those who may be in distress. There is an increase in the Estimate despite there being the same number of chaplains. It seems odd but it might relate to the pay rates or pay grades.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

That is covered by the pay increases under the Public Service Stability Agreement until 2020. The chaplaincy service is vital. There were 15 chaplains in 2017 and 16 in 2018. A female Church of Ireland chaplain is in situ in the Curragh. The chaplains provide an important service, especially when overseas.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I do not have much to ask because my colleagues have asked most of the questions I had wanted to ask. I welcome the Minister of State. Will he provide an update on the pay commission in as much detail as he can, although I accept that he may have given as much detail as he can in that regard? Will he also provide an update on the recruitment competition and additional recruitment within the Army? Finally, will he elaborate on the process of commissioning from the ranks?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I am delighted to say that for the first time in 11 years, there will be a commissioning on 13 or 14 March. It is the first time there has been a commissioning from the ranks, where members of the Defence Forces' ranks will be fully commissioned, which is brilliant. While I am not sure of the exact number, it is approximately 26 or 27 and I will revert to the Deputy in that regard.

On the pay commission, I have provided Deputy Jack Chambers with a briefing. The matter goes back to 2017, when, under my direction, the Department tried to spot issues with recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces and bring them to the attention of the pay commission, which produced its initial report in May 2017. The report highlighted recruitment and retention issues in the health system and within the Defence Forces, both of which were prioritised. The commission concluded its work on health in October or November 2018 and I hope that it will report soon in respect of recruitment and retention within the Defence Forces. I reiterate that the Secretary General of the Department, the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces and officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform met the pay commission earlier, and I will receive a full briefing later. Much work is ongoing in the background where members of the Defence Forces are being consulted. As I have stated previously, the commission is fully independent and when it will report is a matter for it to decide.

On recruitment, on which I provided some detail, we will advertise to that effect shortly.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

How soon does the Minister of State expect it to be?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I expect it to be within the next couple of weeks.

Deputy Jack Chambers

There was no mention of a pathway to implement the working time directive and the process to see it delivered. It is an important issue for members of the Defence Forces, but it is concerning that there has been no discussion of it in a budgetary context. It is disappointing that the matter rests in the subhead related to the courts and, given that people wish to see a pathway delivered, the Department's response to the challenge is also disappointing.

The Minister of State stated 24 doctors are employed. How many vacancies are there for specialist posts, such as in psychiatry? The Minister of State also stated the payments to the Defence Forces for professional consultants and specialists have started to be met from subhead A7, but there is little mention of it under that subhead. There are many personnel throughout the country who must use PDFORRA's fund or their own family to obtain appointments in private hospitals because of the demise of medical staff within the Defence Forces. People are being forced to retire as a result of their medical condition or physical difficulty which, in some circumstances, is due to a lack of intervention. For example, if someone has had an arthritic knee for two years without the appropriate intervention because he or she is waiting to be seen in the public system, and if there is a shortage in the cohort of medical staff within the Defence Forces, he or she will be in limbo and unfit to continue. Consideration needs to be given to some type of fast-track process for people who require intervention for their employment and are forced out because of their medical circumstances, where they could have had the appropriate intervention. Does the Minister of State have any pathway to increase the number of doctors employed or on the level of availability for diagnostics for members of the Defence Forces? I have many examples of people who have to join the queue despite the €17 billion that the State is spending on defence in general.

Part of what was built into the terms and conditions of members of the Defence Forces was the fact that there would be a medical corps. There was supposed to be access to diagnostics and medical specialties but we have not advanced the specialisation of medicine in our Defence Forces. Members are left in limbo. The Minister of State's Department should look at that. Genuine people are being forced out because of medical circumstances in a way none of us should allow.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

There are 24 doctors at the moment. There should be 30. We are recruiting. As the Deputy knows, recruiting doctors is a challenge. We have changed the method of recruiting doctors and it has worked successfully for us. If the Deputy knows of individual cases where people have had to retire on health grounds and were not looked after, perhaps he could give me the details.

Deputy Jack Chambers

My example was someone-----

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Deputy said they were waiting for-----

Deputy Jack Chambers

They were not fit to continue because of their medical conditions.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

If the Deputy has details of individual cases, I would be delighted-----

Deputy Jack Chambers

There are lots of cases. If the diagnostic process had been commenced and the intervention had been carried out earlier things might have been different. Instead these members retired. They may not have got a promotion because of their circumstances and they were left in limbo. It is an issue.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

If the Deputy has the personal details of somebody in such a position, I would be glad to take them. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

Deputy Jack Chambers

I will give them to the Minister of State.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Government has decided to amend the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 to remove the blanket exclusion of the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána and bring them within the scope of that legislation, subject to the application of the exclusions permitted under the EU working time directive. Last night, I spoke to the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, in the context of expediting the legislative changes to remove the blanket exclusion of members of the Defence Forces. The focus is on ensuring compliance with all aspects of the legislation. Significant work has already been undertaken and continues to progress. I outlined during parliamentary questions last week that a civil and military team is working on this. This is a very complex-----

Deputy Jack Chambers

They were blocked.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

No one was blocked.

Deputy Jack Chambers

They were blocked from oral questions.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

That is because deliberations are ongoing. This is a priority for me, for the military management and for my Department.

Chairman

I wish to take up Deputy Jack Chambers' point on subhead A18 and the provision of medical and healthcare support for members of the Defence Forces. There has been an increase of 133%. What is provided for under that subhead? Does that consist of buying in health services from outside the Defence Forces?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Payments in respect of visits by members of the Defence Forces to professional consultants and specialists were previously met from subhead A7. They are now met under subhead A18. That is the reason for the increase. This is reflected in an increased allocation of €4 million under subhead A18.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I wish to ask a question on policy. The Defence Forces outsource some medical services because of the need for consultants. In the past, some soldiers would not go to the Army doctor because part of the duty of that doctor was to report soldiers as unfit. Does an outside consultant or doctor have the same duties to report to the Army that a soldier may be unfit? This has arisen when soldiers have travelled overseas or have been in charge of trucks or other equipment and potentially put other people at risk because of the condition of their health. I know from having talked to soldiers that if somebody is suffering from severe depression or is suicidal he or she will not approach the Army doctor because he or she will be put on sick leave. This will mean that soldier will not participate in overseas missions and will not get allowances. As such, the likelihood is that he or she will be on the breadline, which adds to his or her depression.

It might not be an appropriate topic for today, but it should definitely be looked at given that the Defence Forces now have to rely on outside doctors. I have not yet decided whether I am in favour of the doctor telling the military authorities in all cases. There seems to be an anomaly.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Many of these cases hinge on a clinical decision for the doctor. We have our own in-house GPs but we have to bring in locums on occasion to see members of the Defence Forces. Their reports are put on the medical files. If a member of the Defence Forces living in south County Wexford wakes up, is unable to go to work and has to get some sort of doctor's certificate, that is a clinical decision. If the member goes to his or her local doctor and is told to stay at home as a result of the clinical diagnosis made, whether to pass that information to the Defence Forces medical corps is a clinical decision for the doctor.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. Each of my colleagues mentioned the importance of the Reserve Defence Force and that we would like to see its numbers increase. On a number of occasions over the years I have taken the opportunity at this committee to outline the importance of the Reserve Defence Force. The Reserve Defence Forces Representative Association made a very good presentation to this committee some weeks ago. One of the issues raised was the Reserve's eyesight requirement as opposed to that of the Permanent Defence Force. It is an extra demand. Another issue that arose is that Reserve members cannot serve overseas. Thankfully, the Reserve Defence Force today is very representative of society in the different careers, trades and professions included. There is often specialist knowledge there, in the medical area for example. Such people could serve abroad in a very useful capacity. It is not strictly a matter for the Estimates. Does the Minister of State propose to change legislation to allow members of the Reserve Defence Force to serve abroad?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

There is no opportunity at the moment, but I have it in mind to do that. Is the Chairman referring to the First Line Reserve?

Chairman

The Reserve Defence Force as we would know it.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

A report regarding eyesight standards required for the Naval Service Reserve recruits has been submitted to the general staff by the Naval Service's flag officer commanding. The findings of this report will be considered in due course. I would like to have this sorted out before the Reserve recruitment campaign if at all possible. I hope this will be sorted out shortly. In 2019 there will be two recruitment campaigns for the Reserve and the Naval Service Reserve, one in March and the second in October. Support is being provided to maximise recruitment to the Reserve Defence Force through the use of social media and outreach activities for Reserve members. Permanent Defence Force exit interviews now provide information on applying to become a member of the Reserve. There were 124 Reserve Defence Force inductions in 2018, 139 in 2017, 18 in 2016, 344 in 2015 and 157 in 2014. The Chief of Staff has appointed an officer to liaise directly with the Reserve to ensure the recruitment campaigns are run locally. The problem is in getting numbers. Applications for the Reserve Defence Force will be open very soon.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State. To be fair, when he was before the committee, the Chief of Staff delivered a strong message to the effect that he wants to see the Reserve Defence Force's membership increased as much as possible.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

In regard to Reserve Defence Force man-days, in 2018 some 1,091 people were involved in training.

Chairman

It is very important that we retain the local element relating to the Reserve Defence Force. A number of years ago, there were proposals from the Department and the Defence Forces to regionalise the local Reserve Defence Force in my area to Dundalk in order to cover the Cavan-Monaghan-Longford area. I raised the matter in representations to the Minister of State via parliamentary questions. Thankfully, it did not happen. It is important to retain that structure whereby there is a knowledge of the workings of the Reserve Defence Force at local level and that there is local input. Over the years, people with local knowledge were able to recruit locally because they knew the type of young lady or young man who would be suitable for recruitment. Many such people subsequently served in the Permanent Defence Force.

I previously mentioned to the Minister of State that I understand it can be difficult to recruit at times. Many of our colleges of further education and post-leaving certificate programmes run security courses. There may be a cohort of young people who are hoping to pursue a career in that area and are studying security courses in our colleges of further education who would be interested to know that the Reserve Defence Force is recruiting. It would be worth ensuring that awareness is created in that regard. I sincerely hope that will be done.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I take the Chairman's comments on board.

Chairman

We sincerely hope there will not be a no-deal Brexit and that Britain will leave the European Union with an agreement. We hope that we will not need additional security measures in the Border region. I previously outlined the major mistake of closing Dún Uí Néill barracks in County Cavan. That barracks was in a central Border area and was the most modern barracks in Europe. I sincerely hope the Permanent Defence Force does not have to deploy additional personnel to the Border region. We sincerely hope it does not come to that but, in the event it does, I send a strong message that such personnel cannot go to inferior accommodation. If additional personnel from the Permanent Defence Force are assigned to the Border region, they should go to proper accommodation. It was a different situation when the Troubles erupted in 1969 and 1970. It was difficult at that time because of inadequate accommodation and all of that. The former Dún Uí Néill barracks is still a very sound and modern structure and I sincerely hope that, if additional personnel are assigned, facilities such as Dún Uí Néill barracks would be used. I sincerely hope it does not come to that but it is an issue worth bearing in the back of our minds.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I take that on board. We do not contemplate that happening. The security of the State is a matter for An Garda Síochána in the first instance. If the Defence Forces are required, it will be in the context of providing military aid to the civil power.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I would like to get an update on the new cookhouse at Athlone. Are there any plans to upgrade Finner Camp or is it planned to do something else with it?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The cookhouse in Athlone is under construction at the moment. I understand it will be finished by sometime in October or November at a total cost of €4.1 million.

I am not sure about any works at Finner Camp. It has previously been well looked after and new facilities were built there. A five-year plan is being built up and officials in my Department are in contact with the general officer commanding in each brigade to discover what are their priorities.

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending and for dealing with the issues raised by members.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I thank the Chairman, the clerk and committee members for their input.