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SELECT COMMITTEE on HERITAGE and the IRISH LANGUAGE debate -
Tuesday, 27 Nov 2001

Vol. 4 No. 7

Estimates for Public Services, 2001.

Vote 41 — An Comhairle Ealaíon (Supplementary).

Vote 42 — Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands (Supplementary).

Vote 43 — National Gallery (Supplementary).

I welcome the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, the Minister of State, Deputy Coughlan and their officials. They are present to consider three Supplementary Estimates. The officials are Philip Furlong, Sean Ó Cofaigh, Ciaráin Ó hÓbáin, Seosamh Ó hAghMaill and Michael Conroy. The Minister and the Minister of State will make presentations followed by the Opposition spokespersons and then there will be a general discussion.

It is nice to back following last week's meeting on other issues. I thank the members of the select committee for affording me the opportunity to put forward the Supplementary Estimates for this year before them for approval. I will outline the position with regard to the Supplementary Estimates for The Arts Council — Vote 41, Cultural Projects, RTE, and the Irish Film Board — Vote 42, and the National Gallery — Vote 43, while my colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Coughlan, will cover scéimeanna feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht and Údarás na Gaeltachta.

The Supplementary Estimates proposed for these Votes will be met in their entirety from projected savings within Vote 42. There will not be an additional cost to the Exchequer as a consequence. I will deal first with the Supplementary Estimate of £1.4 million sought in respect of Vote 41, An Chomhairle Ealaíon, The Arts Council. An explanation as to the breakdown of expenditure has been provided to the committee. A sum of £0.9 million has been sought by the council to meet adjusted funding schedules for 2001. This arises from a quicker than expected draw-down of grants. The balance of £0.5 million sought by the Arts Council is for a once-off contribution to ensure the survival of Opera Ireland which, like many other cultural concerns during 2001, experienced a shortfall in income relative to rising production costs. This payment will be made on the clear understanding that a PriceWaterhouseCoopers report concerning the structure, financial management and artistic leadership of the company is implemented.

On Vote 42, I am seeking £1.4 million in respect of cultural projects. This figure will cover much needed once-off funding towards a number of projects, particularly, though not exclusively, in the national cultural institutions. I understand a list of the projects in question has also been furnished separately for the members of the committee and I am confident they will recognise their merits. For this reason, I do not propose to repeat the details of my remarks at this stage, but I will be happy to clarify any issues the committee wishes to raise about them.

A Supplementary Estimate of £7 million proposed for RTE is technical in nature. It reflects the corresponding increase in appropriations-in-aid generated as a consequence of the increase in the television licence fee from 1 September 2001. The intention behind the Government decision, on my recommendation, to increase the television licence fee is to enable RTE to continue to provide existing levels of service while maintaining reasonable cash reserves. I am aware RTE recently indicated that its advertising revenues for the current year have fallen below projections and that it is facing financial difficulties as a result. RTE has also placed on the public record a range of measures its executive board has decided to take to reduce its cost base. While it is Government policy that public service broadcasting must be supported and strengthened, I reject any notion that the television licence fee should be regarded as a cushion against the real world market realities in which RTE operates.

When the Government approved the interim television licence fee increase last July, it agreed that it would consider a further increase from 1 April 2003, subject to prior independent verification that certain conditions had been met. These conditions, which are designed to assist both the Government and RTE in providing assurances to licence fee payers that their money is being well spent, must still be met before any further increase in the television licence fee can be considered.

The sum of £140,000 sought in respect of commissions and special inquiries is required to meet unanticipated legal costs and interest arising from High Court and Supreme Court appeals involving the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. Given the nature of the commission's operations, it was not possible to predict accurately the costs that would arise during the year.

I propose to allocate an additional £2 million to TG4, bringing its total current expenditure funding for the year to more than £18 million. The extra amount will fund additional indigenous television productions in the current year. In total, 12 domestically produced programmes will be brought to our screens as a direct consequence of this funding.

I propose to provide £300,000 to the Irish Film Board. This will go towards additional production grants, start-up costs associated with the new Screen Commission function, which has been assigned to the board, and web and information technology improvements.

With regard to Vote 43, the National Gallery, I propose to allocate an additional £1 million to help defray the costs of the millennium wing extension project. This extension will enable the gallery to exhibit even more of the national collection to the public in a state-of-the-art exhibition space. The increased costs in the current year arise from the timing of various claims associated with the project. The gallery has endeavoured to meet some of these costs, with partial success, through its own fundraising activities, but there remains a shortfall of £1 million in respect of bills which are likely to mature for payment before the end of the year. I propose to allocate £1 million to the National Gallery from savings in Vote 42.

I commend the Supplementary Estimates for Votes 41, 42 and 43 to the committee. I and the Minister of State will be happy to answer any queries Members may have at a later stage in the discussion.

Faoi scéimeanna feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht cuirtear deontais caipitil ar fáil chun muiroibreacha a chur ar fáil nó a fheabhsú sa Ghaeltacht, bóithre Gaeltachta a fheabhsú agus áiseanna ar nós hallaí pobail, páirceanna imeartha agus áiseanna eile a chur ar fáil nó a fheabhsú sa Ghaeltacht do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Tá sé mar aidhm ag na scéimeanna seo forbairt teangeolaíochta, cultúrtha agus sóisialta mar aon le forbairt fisiciúil agus eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn.

Tá molta anois go gcuirfear suim breise de £2 milliúin leis an bun soláthar a bhí curtha ar fáil do na scéimeanna seo chun bóithre straitéiseach sa Ghaeltacht a fheabhsú — £1.4 milliúin — agus le tuilleadh cúnaimh — £600,000 — a chur ar fáil le bóithre áise sa Ghaeltacht a fheabhsú faoi scéim na mbóithre áise. Tabharfaidh sé seo an soláthar caipitil do 2001 do scéimeanna feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht faoin bhfo-mhir caiteachas seo go £11.8 milliúin, ardú de 20% ar an mbun soláthar.

Maidir leis an suim breise de £1.4 milliúin atá le dáileadh chun bóithre straitéiseach sa Ghaeltacht a fheabhsú, ní miste a rá gar thosaigh an Roinn anuraidh, de thoradh an soláthar breise airgid a cuireadh ar fáil di, ar phlean infheistíochta seacht mbliana — tréimhse an Phlean Fhorbartha Náisiúnta 2000-2006 — agus é mar aidhm aici nuair a bheidh sí críochnaithe go mbeidh bóthar amháin ar a laghad ar chaighdeán shásúil isteach chuig chuile Ghaeltacht. Ní miste a mhíniú go bhfuil an t-airgead seo sa bhreis ar an soláthar airgid a bhéadh ar fáil de ghnáth do na h-údaráis áitiúla chun feabhas a chur ar na mbóithre seo.

Maidir leis an suim breise don tÚdarás, aithnítear go bhfuil easpa infrastructúrtha faoi leith a ghoileann go mór ar fhorbairt eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta, easpa teileachumarsáide, iompar agus cumhacht ina measc. Ina theannta sin, feictear nach foláir diriú isteach ar thionscail nua-aimseartha — na tionscail seirbhíse, mar shampla — ar mhaithe le poist maithe a chruthú agus céatadán níos airde de chéimithe na Gaeltachta a mhealladh ar ais.

Sa gcomhthéacs sin, tá sé fíorthabhachtach go gcuirtear spás tionsclaíoch d'ardchaighdeán ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht agus is chuige sin, don chuid is mó, a úsáidfidh Údarás na Gaeltachta an t-airgead atá á phlé againn inniu. Meastar go mbeidh tionchar mhór ag an airgead breise seo go léir ar infrastruchtúr na Gaeltachtaí a fheabhsú agus, dá réir sin, le forbairt shóisialta agus eacnamíochta na ceantair sin chomh maith le forbairt tuaithe a threisiú.

Maraon leis an Aire, beidh mé thar a bheith sásta ceisteanna a bheidh ag Teachtaí a fhreagrú.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire agus an Aire Stáit arís. Bhí an t-Aire linn seachtain ó shin nuair a bhíomar ag déanamh job éigin eile anseo, an Heritage Fund Bill. I welcome any increase for the arts and the Supplementary Estimate under subhead C2 of Vote 42 for cultural projects is a welcome allocation.

I note the National Museum is in receipt of £129,000 for the movement of equipment between museum premises. I take it the museums are in Dublin, namely, the National Museum in Kildare Street and Collins Barracks. Work is progressing on the National Museum in Kildare Street. We cannot but observe that on our way in and out of Leinster House. Perhaps the Minister could apprise us of the up to date position on the renovation work being carried out on the National Museum in Kildare Street. When it is envisaged it will be completed? What is the estimated cost of the ongoing renovation works?

A part of the national collection is held in Kildare Street and the other part in the new premises in Islandbridge or Collins Barracks. Will the fitting out of education rooms be for the benefit of visiting pupils and children or students of archaeology? What exactly is meant by that? Was the medieval sword located in this country? What was its price and where will it be displayed? Will it be in the National Museum in Kildare Street or in Collins Barracks?

The £600,000 for the National Library is very welcome. I know extensive work has been carried out in the library since I used to frequent it many years ago during my student days. I availed of the excellent facilities where one could read books which were not available elsewhere. Have the Westport House papers been acquired yet and will they be on display in the National Library when all negotiations are complete?

The National Concert Hall has been allocated £59,000. I have been there on a number of occasions and always found it very enjoyable. I compliment the National Concert Hall on the variety of entertainment it provides. Is it envisaged to extend it? The main difficulty is that the current premises are rather limited. They are not geared to cater for the great occasion. There is a limit to the number of people who can go into the auditorium. Are there plans to extend it?

The Kilrush restoration project and the Scarriff church will cost £10,000 and £20,000 each. Many of the buildings throughout Ireland of historical or architectural interest are churches of one denomination or another. Most of our houses date back just 100 or 200 years but churches date back 400 and 500 years. Any scheme which will assist to renovate or restore churches is worthy. I hope more use will be made of such schemes. The congregations of a number of Church of Ireland and Protestant churches throughout the country would not have the resources to carry out these works. A special effort should be made to restore and renovate these churches because they can be of considerable interest. The Harry Clarke window in the Scarriff church is mentioned. Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Coughlan, will bear me out in this. I understand there is a very famous stain glass window in the Church of Ireland or Methodist Church in Ardragh — it is an Italian home? I do not know how this would compare with the Harry Clarke works, nevertheless it has often been commented on. These sorts of projects are worthy of assistance. I hope the scheme will be availed of and publicised more than is currently happening. Many people are not aware that such a scheme exists.

I welcome the Supplementary Estimate of £7 million proposed for RTE. I am sure that will be very welcome. This arises from the recent increase of £14.50 in the licence fee from 1 September. However, I am of the opinion that while it will be welcomed by RTE, it certainly will not solve the financial difficulties it is currently experiencing. The Minister said in her speech that the situation is almost critical. In recent weeks RTE has been in the process of making redundant almost 500 workers, 330 under the rationalisation programme and 160 as a result of recent cutbacks. To lose a total of 500, or 25%, of its workforce is a huge blow to any organisation.

The result will be severe cutbacks in all aspects of RTE's work. Well known programmes are being discontinued. We heard yesterday or the day before that "Bull Island", which will be of interest to some people in Leinster House, will be discontinued. That programme had a huge listenership of approximately 500,000 — I do not see it all the time. It is a pity such programmes will be discontinued as a result of rationalisation being carried out at the station at the moment. "Nationwide" which is watched in every rural home in Ireland is also being cut from three to two programmes per week. "The Week in Politics", which is of interest to us, will be discontinued from next June. These are very serious cutbacks in home produced programmes which people are interested in. There is imported canned material in every station but the programmes which are suffering are part of the public service remit of RTE. I do not believe the £7 million being allocated will alleviate RTE's difficulties.

When we previously discussed this issue with the Minister she promised to have a review of the entire financial situation in RTE. That will take place in April 2003 but, in view of all these cutbacks and the retrenchment which is going on in RTE, are there any plans to bring forward the review even by a year in case the situation gets out of hand? Many of us had a number of meetings recently with Raidió na Gaeltachta. Another effect of the cutbacks is that Raidió na Gaeltachta, which has been broadcasting for 29 years and has given new life to the Irish language, not just in Gaeltacht areas but throughout the entire country, is having its budget cut back by £370,000, or 10%, from £3.7 million. Very important aspects of its work had to be abandoned. These included important cross-Border programmes and programmes from outside the Gaeltacht to which we have all become accustomed. The small Gaeltacht areas throughout the country will also suffer because the Outside Broadcast Unit will no longer be seen going along the highways and byways, bringing the radio into the communities and putting people in touch with the rest of the country.

Raidió na Gaeltachta is a very important part of the culture and infrastructure of the Gaeltacht. Since we do not have an daily Irish language newspaper, if one wants to be acquainted with births, deaths and marriages in the Gaeltacht, one must listen to Raidió na Gaeltachta. Not only does it serve as a radio, it also serves as a newspaper and public service for Gaeltacht areas. All sorts of notices, including Government notices and situations vacant, are advertised on the station which is the lifeline of many Gaeltacht communities. If this is cut back by 10% that will have devastating consequences for Raidió na Gaeltachta.

All the parties about this issue, including the chairman. We listened to the concerns expressed in the submissions. There was an all-party agreement that something must be done to rescue Raidió na Gaeltachta. What is happening will be a huge body blow, particularly at a time when services are being expanded to 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Raidió na Gaeltachta began broadcasting years ago for two hours a day, now it will broadcast for 24 hours a day. While the station can be listened to in any part of the world on the Internet, these cutbacks will be a severe blow. I suggest that something should be done. Either RTE should except Raidió na Gaeltachta because of the nature of its work or the Minister should make a direct grant-in-aid available to the station as an exceptional measure to save it from these serious cutbacks.

The second point I wish to make relates to Lyric FM which has been on the air for approximately two or three years. I am a regular listener and it caters for a certain section of the community. It is a cultural programme of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. It is being cut back by £550,000 which will be a big blow. It will be the only radio station in the country without its own news service and five people's jobs are on the line. It is a unique and cultural service because the programmes cannot be heard on other stations. I hope something can be done for Lyric FM which has its own audience throughout the country. Can anything be done about Raidió na Gaeltachta, Telefís na Gaeilge or Lyric FM and can the review be brought forward? Are we going to Roinn na Gaeltachta as I have some questions for an tAire Stáit too?

Ar aghaidh leat.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an liúntas breise. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an tAire Stáit ag leanúint ar aghaidh leis an bpolasaí maidir leis na bóithre straitéiseacha. An bhféadfadh sí a rá cé mhéid a bheidh ar fáil ag na bhóithre straitéiseacha an bhliain seo chugainn? An mbeidh an oiread céanna airgid ar fáil is a bhí imbliana. Tá gearraithe siar sna meastacháin.

Tá fhios againn go léir an obair atá ar siúl ag Údarás na Gaeltachta sa Ghaeltacht. Deirtear liom go bhfuil gearrtha siar sna meastacháin dóibh don bhliain seo chugainn. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé ceart a bheith ag caint ar na meastacháin don bhliain seo chugainn ach sílim go bhfuil geartha siar sa deontas caipitil. An bhfuil an tAire sásta nach gcuirfidh sé seo isteach ar thógáil monarchan agus ar fhostaíocht a chur ar fáil sna ceantair Ghaeltachta? B'fhéidir go mbeidh deis agam filleadh ar an gceist seo níos moille nuair a bheidh na daoine eile istigh.

I welcome the Minister, Minister of State and their officials. On Vote 41, the demand for payment of grants by An Comhairle, the Arts Council, has been greater than anticipated. It has outstripped available funding in the current year. What happened? Did this happen because of demand-led schemes? What gave rise to this situation? Could we have a list of grants paid and an explanation of where the difficulties arose?

On Vote 42, subhead 3(c) on cultural projects, I note that the two projects outside Dublin were from the Minister's constituency. I am sure that happened by accident. The Minister might explain how selections are made. What process takes place within the Department that gives rise to these decisions?

I welcome the extra £2 million under the scéimeanna feabhsacháin sa Ghaeltacht. An bhféadfadh an tAire Stáit a inseacht dúinn cad iad na Gaeltachtaí ina mbeidh an t-airgead á chaitheamh? Sé sin an £1.4 million atá á chaitheamh ar na bóithre straitéiseacha Gaeltachta agus an £0.6 million atá á chaitheamh ar scéim na mbóithre áise.

Tá mé ag féachaint arís ar an £400,000 atá le caitheamh ag Údarás na Gaeltachta. Cad chuige an t-airgead seo? Cad iad na todhchaí a mbeidh an t-airgead á chaitheamh orthu? The sum of £7 million for RTE is inadequate in terms of its current problems. In the case of Lyric FM and its new service, the staff are expecting to receive their notice on Friday this week. Lyric FM which has a very dedicated listenership, has been a real success. A person who listens to Lyric FM who has no contact with the station told me recently that if the new service is terminated — the style of news given on Lyric FM dovetails its musical events — they will have to tune into another station such as RTE 1 to hear the news. The experience of Lyric FM and its music is being damaged by this decision. It has been a success in decentralisation terms. Why this station should be hit in such a devastating manner is beyond me. Does the Minister have any views in this regard? Has she had any discussions with the RTE authority or director general on this matter? Is she happy that this highly successful and innovative station is to be without its new service and all the lesser for it?

Maidir le Raidió na Gaeltachta de, bhí dream istigh ón stáisiún sin an tseachtain seo caite agus bhí trí mholadh acu. An chéad cheann ná go gcaithfí dul i gcomhairle leis an mbainistíocht in RTE agus a chur in a luí orthu gur cheart féachaint arís ar an gcinneadh atá déanta acu £370,000 a bhaint as an mbuiséad do Raidió na Gaeltachta. Beidh an Teachta Ó hUiginn ag deileáil leis na figiúirí nuair a bheidh sé ag caint ar an gcoiste.

Caithfear féachaint ar Raidió na Gaeltachta ó dhá threo — an craolachán ar láimh amháin agus an teanga ar an láimh eile. De réir mar a chualamar an tseachtain seo caite, beidh na cláracha neamhspleacha gur féidir leo a chur ar fáil ar Raidio na Gaeltachta scriosta muna gcuirfear airgead isteach iontu.

Os rud é go bhfuil cúram na Gaeilge ar an Aire agus go bhfuil RTE chun £370,000 a thógaint amach as an mbuiséad, an bhfuil sí sásta an t-airgead a chur isteach mar dheontas faoi leith ón a Roinn don bhliain seo chugainn go dtí go mbeidh an cheist mhór — sé sin an t-airgead iomlán do RTE — réitithe aici? Tá laghdú cúig faoin gcéad déanta ar an airgead atá ag dul go RTE 1 ach tá laghdú deich faoin gcéad ar an airgead atá ag dul go Raidió na Gaeltachta. Tá eagla ormsa go scriosfar an stáisiún muna dtugann an tAire an t-airgead seo dóibh. Beidh mé ag éisteacht go géar nuair a thiocfaidh sí ar ais chugainn.

An dtuigeann údarás RTE i gceart cé chomh tábhachtach is atá Raidió na Gaeltachta, ní amháin sna Gaeltachtaí ach do dhaoine nach gcónaíonn sa Ghaeltacht ach a bhfuil an-shuim acu sna cláracha a chuirtear ar fáil ar an stáisiún? Mar a dúrathas cheana anseo tá siad ag craoladh anois 24 uair sa ló ar feadh na seachtaine. An féidir le Aire a bhfuil cúram na Gaeilge uirthi — agus glacaim leis go bhfuil suim aici féin sa Ghaeilge — seasamh siar agus ligint do Raidió na Gaeltachta a bheith faoi bhrú?

An ceart go mbeadh a bhuiséad féin ag Raidió na Gaeltachta, neamhspleách ó RTE? Nach féidir linn muinín a bheith againn as Raidió na Gaeltachta, go leanfaidh an stáisiún á fhorbairt is á láidriú?

I will now make a more general point about RTE. The Department has no policy on public service broadcasting. The present cutbacks will strip down substantially RTE's capacity to produce programmes. The elimination of the outside broadcast unit and non-technical staff seriously undermines its capacity produce public service programming of national importance. Sky is increasing its share of the market and Irish stations may be pushed down the electronic programme guide with detrimental effects.

Will the Minister explain the extra expenditure involving High Court and Supreme Court appeals under the Broadcasting Complaints Commission? Has the absorption of the Screen Commission of Ireland into the Irish Film Board been successful? Are the functions of the commission being conducted as effectively?

I obviously welcome the additional £2 mhilliún atá ag dul go TG4 chun cláracha a bhaineann leis an tír seo a chur ar fáil. Tá an-chumas ag an stáisiún sin cláracha den tsort sin a chur ar fáil agus fáiltím roimh an airgead seo. Tá mé lan-chinnte go dtiocfaidh cláracha maithe ó TG4 de bharr an t-airgead seo a beith ar fáil

Dúirt an t-Aire go dtuigeann sí gur cuireadh RTE le fios le déanaí go bhfuil laghdú tagtha ar an méid airgid atá ag teacht isteach ó fhógráiochtaí agus go bhfuil deacrachtaí ag an stáisiún dá bharr. Chuir an focal "tuigim" ionadh orm. An bhfuil an t-Aire ag rá nach gcreideann sí go bhfuil ganntanas airgid in RTE? An gceapann sí go bhfuil bainisteoirí RTE ag ligint orthu go bhfuil easpa airgid ar an stáisiún. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil ganntanas airgid sa stáisiún agus go bhfuil gearradh siar idir láimhe ann.

Cuireann sé ionadh orm go bhfuil gearradh siar á dhéanamh ar Raidió na Gaeltachta agus Lyric FM. Nuair a fhéachaim ar chlár teilifíse ar RTE cuireann sé ionadh an domhain orm an méid daoine a luaitear ag deireadh an chláir a bhí pairteach ina dhéanamh. Is anyone in RTE able to do a general job? Does one person turn on the switch and another open the door? We see numerous credits at the end of every programme. I regret not recording all the credits at the end of a straightforward, studio based programme last night as an example. Could RTE not evaluate the work being done to see what is necessary?

Ní fheicim cén fáth go bhfuil gearradh siar á dhéanamh ar Raidió na Gaeltachta. Níl go leor airgid ag an stáisiún mar atá sé. Má déantar gearradh siar ní bheidh éinne ann, fiú amháin chun an doras a dhúnadh nuair atá foireann an stáisiúin imithe. Cén fáth go bhfuil gearradh siar á dhéanamh ar Lyric FM? Tá a lán daoine ag obair in RTE, idir raidio agus teilifís. Nach bhfuil níos mó deis ansin chun gearradh siar a dhéanamh?

Is the Minister serious in saying she understands RTE is short of money? She gave it a miserly increase which was to be reviewed. If we continue cutting back in all stations, we will finish up with a cheaply run organisation which will only broadcast the likes of Laurel and Hardy in black and white because their performance rights do not cost much. There will be pressure to bring back "Bull Island" and other political programmes, but is RTE serious about dealing with the matter when it announces the end of such shows?

There should be a total review of RTE which is short of funds. We should discuss how to raise money. Cutting back on Raidió na Gaeltachta and Lyric FM should not be countenanced. Raidió na Gaeltachta promotes the language throughout the country. If we are serious about the language — which I doubt as there is only lip-service paid to it — it is important that people living outside the Gaeltacht hear their neighbours being interviewed. It is good that it stays for one week in places such as Carlow to broadcast programmes. This does more for Irish than propaganda from certain parties about restoring it. Raidió na Gaeltachta deserves praise for promoting the language and good programmes, which is twice as important as people will listen to them. I enjoy listening to it as I drive along because it is simúil.

On Vote 42, I hope cultural events are recognised. I do not object to those recognised previously as I know where they are held. However, a military museum also comes under the heading "cultural activity," especially when there is only one which caters for our military heritage and those who served in the armed forces. As it is located in Carlow, I have a particular interest in it. I hope the Minister of State will look after my application when it arrives. I will discuss it with the Minister also. The museum is located in the ideal place — a lovely church in the mental hospital with beautiful stained glass which may have been designed by Harry Clarke, for all I know.

I wish to make a number of points and I have a few questions to ask. I wish the Minister and the Minister of State well but I must say that in the history of broadcasting the Minister's statement on page three will go down as one of the most incredible statements of all time. She says:

While it is Government policy that public service broadcasting must be supported and strengthened, I would reject any notion that the television licence fee should be regarded as the cushion against the real world market realities in which RTE operates.

That is an appalling statement. What is the licence fee for if it is not to provide us with broadcasting rights that we would never get from the market? What have we got in relation to the Irish language from market thinking on broadcasting? Think of the struggle for Irish on TV3 or on commercial broadcasting stations. Would Irish ever be on them?

The Minister's statement is a statement of the most abject surrender to the worst kind of broadcasting into the future that I have ever heard, and I am a former Minister with responsibility for broadcasting. It is a terrible time for broadcasting in Ireland. We have apparently abandoned the transition to digitalisation in the short-term and we are now queuing and paying money to get on Rupert Murdoch's Sky server. We line up with all the others.

As well as that, when one tries to reason on the cuts now taking place, RTE is described as a business. Since the Minister included the statement above in her opening on the Estimates I must make some points in relation to some of the arrangements in RTE with which I am familiar. I happen to know and admire the people of RTE from the time we took pride in, for example, running the Eurovision song contest. Then, the Taoiseach of the day would race me out to RTE to be first to compliment the workers. Everyone was very admiring of their work.

The building unit in RTE comprised 40 to 42 or 44 people. Then it was reduced to 33 and later to 14. When it began that unit had a master carpenter and an assistant master carpenter, a master painter and an assistant master painter, a master electrician and assistant master electrician. Then it was reduced to 14 people — sometimes there were only nine — and everyone tried to do the job required up to the level of their skill.

Was it the production of programmes?

Making sets is what I am talking about. This reduction in numbers was regarded as a flexibility rearrangement in RTE and was quoted by the different unions and managers as a transformation model. The transformation that represented was part of a general transformation and the union and its representatives went into meetings — three in all — with the Minister on the strict understanding that their transformations and disposal of staff would bring an adequate rise in the licence fee. Then outside opinion in relation to the licence fee was recommended and the Minister did not keep her side of the bargain. She gave them more than a third less than what would have enabled, to quote the report, RTE to more or less tread water. It would have enabled RTE to stay as it is. She cannot remove herself from responsibility for the destruction that is taking place in broadcasting and the destruction of national self-respect.

Then the Broadcasting Corporation of Ireland, formerly the Independent Radio and Television Commission, changed its rules to enable any person to buy 100% of any radio station in the country or up to 28% of all the stations. What is the meaning of "the real world market realities"? What is that except a piece of guff? What are the realities? They are that everything is up for sale. In my Green Paper on the future of broadcasting I set out that the right to communicate was a democratic right that could not be reduced to a commodity purchased on the market. The Minister has taken the second road.

In the meantime, when I have tried to raise these matters on the Adjournment, I have been told the Minister has no responsibility and it is a matter for RTE. I attended a meeting in Cois Fharraige at which her colleague, Aire na Mara agus na hAchmhainn Nádúrtha, Deputy Fahey, was present and he more or less said that he would pick up the phone to Paddy Wright and tell him that if he did not secure the jobs in Raidió na Gaeltachta he was wasting his time looking for a licence fee. That is what broadcasting has descended to.

Is é costas reatha Raidió na Gaeltachta £3.7 milliún. As sin íoctar timpeall £2.4 milliún ar thuarastal. Fágann sin £1.3 milliún. As an méid sin caitear £600,000 ar costaisí teileafóin, glanadh agus mar sin de. Fágann sin £700,000 do chiste na gclár. Caithfear gearradh siar de £370,000 teacht as an £700,000 sin. Ní féidir gearradh siar de 50% a chur i gcrích gan tionchar a bheith aige ar dhéanamh na gclár. Deirtear nach ligfear daoine chun bóthair. Ach an bhfuil an t-Aire ag súil go bhfanfaidh daoine sa bhaile ag fanacht ar ghlaoch teileafóin chun teacht isteach agus clár a dhéanamh? Níl aon seans go bhfanfadh éinne a bhfuil féin-mheas aige nó aici, ar na coinníolacha sin.

Más féidir £2 mhilliún breise a chur ar fáil ins na Meastacháin le haghaidh bóithre cabhracha agus mar sin de, cén fáth nach féidir ciste a chruthú chun cláracha a fhorbairt? D'fhéadfaí na cláracha agus na daoine atá ag obair orthu a chosaint sa ghearr-thréimhse go dtí go mbeidh an t-Aire as oifig nó an beart déanta ag RTE. D'fhéadfaí é a dhéanamh tríd an údarás, rud a tharla cheana le cúrsaí scannánaíochta. Molaim go gcuirfí ciste forbartha clár ar bun chun an bearna idir an t-am seo nuair atá na cláracha i mbaol agus an t-am ina dtiocfaidh crích leis an díospóireacht faoi leibhéal an cheadúnais.

This is another interesting point. I remember when I was half way through writing the report on the future of digital broadcasting for this committee that the Minister told us the Government had decided we were going to have digital terrestrial broadcasting. Many years later it is queuing up for Rupert Murdoch's passageway to the sky.

Part of the antipathy that is encouraged towards RTE is due to the funds that came from the sale of Cablelink. It was always understood that those funds would be part of the stake RTE would have available in meeting market realities in relation to the transition to digitalisation. Where do we stand now with digitalisation?

I have a few other questions. I welcome the increase to the film board and particularly the fact that film commissioning is now with the film board where it will be more successful. It is a welcome reversal of the Minister's policy. There are a number of interesting points here. I mentioned Lyric. Lyric's establishment was a policy decision. A Minister with responsibility for broadcasting policy must decide whether he or she believes in broadcasting based on a communication right and how much of it is to be provided by the market. That is an inescapable policy decision. That is why the contradiction in the Minister's contribution is such an appalling and outrageous one. Public service broadcasters since Lord Reith have accepted that to satisfy the demands of informing, educating and entertaining, one needs public service broadcasting. There is such a thing as a public service broadcaster. It is not a matter of taking a pepper canister and saying that announcing the weather on a commercial station constitutes public service broadcasting. A populist view can be whipped up in favour of the other view and no doubt that is what will happen.

The Minister's statement is one of the most disgraceful in the history of broadcasting and I noticed something interesting buried in there. Perhaps in my day I was very conservative in relation to the running of certain things in the Department but none of the new expenditure proposed this afternoon will require additional expenditure; they will all be savings under Vote 42 and I would like to know where they are made. They will probably appear under subheads H.1 and H.2 so, therefore, the Minister is in fact cutting the capital and current expenditure in Údarás na Gaeltachta. If she is doing that, she should say that she is taking the money. This happened previously when the poor people of Tory Island waited for a pier for years. I decided to allocate the money that was being raided every year to bail out various Ministers and Ministers of State of their injudicious commitments to their neighbours.

I wish to ask about the additional legal costs of £482,000 that arise in another Vote in relation to the Irish Museum of Modern Art. Some anticipated legal fees will be paid and some new equipment and furniture will also be purchased. How much furniture and how much equipment and how much was spent in driving out the finest curator that we probably had in any State institution in my time? I refer to Declan McGonagle.

I am glad that the restoration projects have commenced in my native Clare. Having committed oneself to the Harry Clarke window in Scariff, may the Minister's interests roll on right through the country. As someone pointed out, may it include Hone and all of the others as well.

As to the question asked already about Vote 42, subhead E, maidir leis an gceann sin faoi scéimeanna feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht de mhéid £2 mhilliún. Nil mé i gcoinne sin. Is cuimhin liom an Teachta Ó Cuív i gcónaí ag cur ceisteanna orm faoin bproiséas a bheadh i gceist. He had a most elaborate process in mind. Could we find out what elaborate process is now going to be there? Will the county council recommend the roads and then will a list be established and what basis of equivalence will there be between all the different Gaeltachts? Is it based on population and which roads are involved? I wish the Aire Stáit well. It would be difficult of course to come up to the standard of her predecessor but she is a good woman and will do her best.

On Teilifís na Gaeilge, let me unreservedly welcome the allocation for additional programmes. Lyric was founded by a policy decision. I remember it very well. There is a huge difference as my colleagues have said between the news on Lyric and the news on Sky. The Minister's grandfather probably had the BBC in mind as a model for broadcasting — a fine model indeed. The Minister herself has Sky as her test of what constitutes broadcasting. I recall a Northern Ireland Minister of State being interviewed five times because he did not get his soundbyte short enough. That is what happens in that kind of news coverage.

Lyric has a way of covering the news by retaining its narrative quality in a manner that did not contradict the music being played. It is absolutely outrageous that this generic way of presenting news is being ended. There is running through the whole thing a lack of feeling for broadcasting having anything to do with ourselves and the way we do things. The idea is that RTE is a business to be continually harassed. If we lose broadcasting, it will be a disaster. I reject any notion that the television licence fee should be regarded as a cushion against the real world market realities in which RTE operates. The definition of "commodification" in broadcasting is the destruction of national self-respect in broadcasting. It represents the same thinking that will drive Aer Lingus out of the skies and it is appalling. I cannot find words to describe how much I reject that notion.

RTE is not a business, it is the national broadcaster. Raidio na Gaeltachta provides for the people who use the Irish language in the Gaeltacht and people who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht. There are things done in public service broadcasting that a market will never provide. "Real world market realities" is an ignorant statement which is not based on any empirical economic realities. Let us hear where they are; let us hear the stations where this works and let us hear of the countries where it worked. It is just a piece of old guff to justify the privatisation of something that is in the public realm and it is appalling.

Thank you, Chairman. I wish to thank all the Deputies who have raised questions and I will endeavour to deal with them as expeditiously and comprehensively as I can. Deputy McGinley referred to the cultural institutions. I thank Deputy McGinley for his good grace in saying that he welcomes the increase that will be going to the cultural institutions. I can go into more detail about the renovations referred to. The Deputy is correct in saying that in relation to the National Museum the money will go towards improving the equipment in the museum and will help with the fitting out of rooms for educational purposes. Every Deputy here would be of the opinion that national cultural institutions have a very important part to play in education and it is important to provide the best possible access for educational purposes. The acquisition of the medieval sword for the national collection is of particular importance both from an archaeological and historical perspective. The Deputy asked whether or not these artefacts could be sent out on loan. We had a discussion on Committee Stage of the Heritage Fund Bill about whether or not it would be advisable or possible for objects of archaeological and historical interest to be shown in museums other than the National Museum. I share the Deputy's view on this matter. There is a loans policy in operation in the National Museum. Now that we have nine accredited museums there will be the opportunity to have such artefacts displayed in this manner.

Deputy McGinley asked about the National Library. I am pleased to say that the acquisition of the important Westport House papers will be facilitated by this extra money. This has been ongoing. I did not have enough time or opportunity to let the Deputy know this in our further discussions on the National Library. It was also raised in the Dáil by other Deputies from his party, including Deputy Ring, during the discussion on the Heritage Fund Bill. I am glad there is some good news in that regard.

With regard to the National Concert Hall, another institution which has been a tremendous success, this money will go towards the acquisition of furniture and new equipment, including IT hardware. The question was raised as to whether I was considering a second auditorium, in the context of the ongoing debate concerning further facilities for the National Concert Hall. As I pointed out on other occasions, in reply to parliamentary questions, options have been put to me by a very high level group in that regard and I will bring forward my proposals at an early date.

In relation to the Scarriff church in County Clare, its Harry Clarke windows are well known nationally and internationally to those who are acquainted with stained glass windows. I am sure it will make Deputy Higgins' day to know he will be reminded of this when he gets my Christmas card, on which it will be featured.

An excellent choice.

It will have a particular resonance for the Deputy, a person from County Clare.

I hope the Minister will also send one to me.

I assure the Deputy that I will send one to every Member of this committee.

We owe it to Harry Clarke, having rejected his original windows, as the Minister may remember.

I can only speak for my term of office in this responsibility and I am very pleased to have been able to give that contribution towards the Harry Clarke windows in County Clare. The Church of Ireland church in Kilrush was also mentioned. The protection of churches of all denominations is most important because they contain a tremendous amount of heritage. I am considering how we can best deal with this issue in the context of the ongoing debate on this matter, having regard to those churches that are still places of worship. That aspect has to be considered. We have a very good working relationship with the Churches, in terms of restoration, and the discussions are ongoing in that regard.

Moving on to matters in broadcasting, as the points raised by each of the Deputies opposite were basically similar, I will take them as a group of questions, if I may. With regard to the licence fee, I do not wish to bruise Deputy Higgins' sensibilities but I reiterate that I reject any notion that the television licence fee should be regarded as a cushion against the real world market realities in which RTE operates. We are not talking of a bottomless pit, in terms of a fund that can be dipped into for any purposes at any time. It is public money and we have to ensure that we get value for money and that costs are cut in RTE. The question of restructuring is not just an issue which I feel has to be addressed — it is very much a matter which people in RTE also realise they have to address. It was completely and utterly inaccurate for Deputy Higgins to say that, in any discussions I had with the trade unions or anybody else concerning RTE, there was any link between the restructuring issue and the licence fee. At all times, I said the licence fee was a matter for me, as Minister of the day, and the Government, whereas restructuring is an operational matter for RTE and the RTE Authority. Either the lines were being blurred here or there was a failure to understand the particular——

It was the opinion of the trade union group, as told to me. It was their recollection of their meetings with the Minister.

I am telling the Deputy what I said and I will stand over what I have said. I am happy to say that I will meet the chairman of RTE and the unions, at separate meetings, this coming week. I have always kept my door open for discussions with either the unions or the chairman — that avenue of communication was always there.

On the question of programming, it is well recognised that the Government, or the Minister of the day, should not have any input to that area. Programming is very much a matter for the Authority. A number of programmes have been mentioned today, including "Bull Island", from which I have had a few laughs from time to time. Deputies have said that such programmes should not be cut. Those are questions for the Authority to answer, not for the Minister of the day. However, I will make known to the RTE Authority the views and concerns which Deputies have raised in this debate. The question of where cuts should be applied is, obviously, also a matter for the Authority. It is not a matter for the Minister of the day, as the Deputies opposite know quite well, and it is quite disingenuous to suggest that it is otherwise. In relation to Lyric FM, to express a personal point of view, I regarded it as a great innovation, a wonderful station which has been very different in its approach and I certainly accept Deputy Higgins' view on that. The station's different approach has been very healthy.

I have been asked for my views on the promotion of the Irish language and my stance in relation to Radio na Gaeltachta. It is quite obvious that Radio na Gaeltachta has been a tremendous success — and continues to be a tremendous success — not just for the people within the Gaeltacht, but for people outside the Gaeltacht. It is a national institution in terms of its interest and its following. TG 4 has also gained tremendous support. I have always acknowledged that Deputy Higgins deserves praise — although I know he would not seek praise — for the work he did to ensure that TG 4 was set up. Would he have set it up if he felt there was not a need for such an organisation? He obviously felt there was a need for it and I support that view.

The market would not ever have demanded it. I did it for public service broadcasting reasons.

Yes, and I assure the Deputy that I would do the same. Furthermore, I am sure the Deputy will be delighted to know that, since he left office, I have increased the funding for TG 4 by more than 100%.

I have always welcomed that.

Thank you. The question of the——

It was also saved from Bertie another time.

The Arts Council was referred to by Deputy O'Shea. The allocation of £900,000 was to meet the Arts Council's adjusted funding schedules. There was the further £500,000 for Opera Ireland. It might be asked how that situation arose. The present financial difficulties for Opera Ireland were brought to a head when the winter 2000 and spring 2001 seasons failed to meet projected box office returns. It is believed that this was because audiences were not persuaded to attend the new repertoire involved. This, coupled with rising costs — mainly related to the hire of the Gaiety Theatre, the escalation of RTE's charges and additional artistic and royalty costs — exacerbated the overall poor financial position of Opera Ireland. Therefore, I examined what could be done to address the situation. That is why £500,000 has been allocated to the Arts Council for the purpose of bridging that gap for Opera Ireland. That was agreed. We all know that the two most expensive art forms to stage are ballet and opera, for obvious reasons.

Another matter raised by Deputy O'Shea was legal costs with regard to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland because of the case taken by Anthony Coughlan. If the Deputy requires further information on that matter, I can get it for him. Deputy O'Shea also raised the issue of the Screen Commission of Ireland. When I came into office, I was very pleased that the Screen Commission of Ireland was established; it is now subsumed into the Film Board. It has been a very positive project. The additional costs that have arisen for the Irish Film Board have meant that the board required additional facilities such as the new photograph database library. That is where the money went in that instance.

That is about it in terms of the questions asked. If there are other questions that have not been dealt with——

The Minister was asked by a number of Deputies where the savings came from and under which headings.

Sorry, so I was, Chairman. The savings came from subhead C3. Some £2 million was saved on cultural projects. The savings have arisen because there was less expenditure than was originally anticipated on the projects accepted for funding under the access grants. Some of those have not been taken up because some projects did not have time to get under way before the end of the year. Therefore, there was £2 million extra under that subhead.

There was a saving of £1.4 million on Údarás na Gaeltachta. The Minister of State will further explain that area. It was due to a downturn in the economy and the slowdown in new business start-ups and company expansions, despite the number of new inquiries still being buoyant. This has resulted in a slowdown in the number of grant applications in the current year, leading to a saving of £1.4 million.

The other saving of £4.4 million related to Waterways Ireland. It arose for three reasons — lower personnel numbers arising and a delay in recruiting the full complement of staff in the new cross-Border body, slow progress on the installation of a new IT system and the problems related to foot and mouth disease.

Tá muid ag caint faoi airgead breise ar na bóithre straiteiseach. A leanfas na deontais atá ceadaithe: Comhairle Chondae Dhún na nGall, £690,000, Comhairle Chondae Mhaigh Eo, £240,000, Comhairle Chondae Chiarraí, £420,000 agus Comhairle Chondae Chorcaigh £60,000.

Cad faoi Chondae na Gaillimhe?

Tá fiosrúchán ag dul ar aghaidh faoi Chondae na Gaillimhe go fóill. Ní raibh Comhairle Chondae na Mí, Comhairle Chondae Phort Láirge, nó Comhairle Chondae na Gaillimhe, ábalta an t-airgead a úsáid roimh deireadh na mbliana, cé nach raibh siad críochnaithe leis an obair a bhí ceadaithe agam cheana. Chuala mé duine ag gearán ar Raidió na Gaeltachta nach raibh na deontais ceadaithe in am. Níl sin fíor mar bhí siad ceadaithe níos luaithe ná a bhí i riamh. Tá go leor obair ag dul ar aghaidh i gcúpla dena comhairlí condae agus níl siad ábalta an t-airgead a úsáid. Sin raite, luaigh tú cúpla fá scéal na bóithre, agus tá sin scaipthe ar fud na Gaeltachtaí uilig. Comhairle chondae ar bith a bhí in ann an t-airgead a úsáid roimh 10ú la Nollag, bhí mé in ann á cheadú. Tabharfaidh mé an liosta leis na sonraí fá sin don choiste.

Bhí na bóithre áise luaite ag daoine mar gheall ar na critéir atá ann. Ar dtús chaithfeadh go mbeadh teach amháin in úsáid agus go mbeadh daoine ina gcónaí ar an bhóthar agus fosta stadas an teanga sa cheantar. Bheadh meastachán ón chomhairle chondae de dhíth. Ni raibh an scéim ann go dtí gur tháinig an Rialtas seo i réim. Duine ara bhfuil tinneas——

Níl ard-chaighdeán bainte amach ag Pat the Cope.

Sin iad na critéir atá ann agus beimid ábalta lanúint ar aghaidh leis na hiarratais ata os comhair na Roinne.

Luadh Údarás na Gaeltachta. D'iarr an t-údarás orm £1.4 milliún a aistriú ó H2 — £400,000 a thabhairt do H1 ó H2 agus £1 milliún a thabhairt do H3. Thug me £700,000 le cois dóibh. Níor gearradh siar ar an mhéid airgead atá ar fáil chuig an údarás. Ta £700,000 milliún sa bhreis ar fáil chuige agus tá an méid airgid céanna ar fáil dona bóithre straitéiseacha mar a bhí ann i mbliana.

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur. I am concerned about the two broadcasting units that RTE proposed to cut back on. I am particularly concerned about the position in which Raidió na Gaeltachta finds itself. The reduction of its budget, which is already very tight, will ruin the quality of the service the station provides. The Department should support the committee, which has met those involved. The Aire Stáit has also met a number of people. The same problem can be found in relation to Lyric FM. The director general said that all core services would be maintained and I believe the special news service provided by Lyric FM qualifies as such a service. Many people listen to the station's cultural news broadcasts, which deal with arts and heritage matters. The two radio stations to which I have referred have no income other than subventions from RTE as they are not allowed to advertise. I am a little disheartened by the treatment of these vital stations which provide a pure public service.

A sum of £1 million would ease their difficulties.

The Department, in the interests of the stations, should intervene to create a special development fund, as proposed by Deputy Michael D. Higgins. An independent broadcasting Bill could be introduced to support Raidio na Gaeltachta and Lyric FM, if necessary. I hope the Minister follows up this matter as staff in Limerick are due to be given notice on Friday.

Ba mhaith liom cur leis an méid atá ráite ag an gCathaoirleach. We have not been given definite answers regarding Lyric FM or Raidió na Gaeltachta. Funding for the two stations has been reduced to £370,000, which is a drop in the ocean of RTE's budget of £208 million. Although the allocation means little to RTE, as it represents less than 0.01% of its overall budget, it is almost a matter of life and death for Raidió na Gaeltachta. I have met representatives of Raidió na Gaeltachta, who have met the comhchoiste, and the Minister is here today but we have yet to be given a positive undertaking regarding the maintenance of the services provided by the station. Some members of the committee have contacted representatives of the RTE authority. It is fine to pass the buck to the authority, but, as legislators, we are RTE's paymasters. We provide between 30% and 40% amount of RTE's funding through the licence fee. The Minister should use her office to ask RTE to exempt Raidió na Gaeltachta from cutbacks.

Deputies Michael D. Higgins and O'Shea discussed the service provided by the station and outlined the severe consequences of a 10% cut in funding. I believe the reduction will only be 5% in other areas of RTE. Jobs will be lost in Lyric FM, a unique station which provides a cultural service. It is significant go bhfuil Raidio na Gaeltachta agus Lyric FM uilig lonnaithe taobh amuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath. Níl siad san árdchathair. Tá Raidió na Gaeltachta lonnaithe ar fud chósta an iarthair. Tá sé i mBaile Átha Cliath chomh maith ach tá an chuid is mó dá chuid oibre in iarthar na hÉireann. Tá Lyric FM lonnaithe i Luimneach. Is uafásach an scéal é go bhfuil na gearraithe siar ag titim níos troime ar an chuid de RTE atá taobh amuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath. Níl mé ag déanamh dísbeagtha ar an méid atá á tarlú in RTE i mBaile Átha Cliath. After all, it is losing 500 jobs.

Does the Minister agree that there is a huge programme of rationalisation in RTE? Does she believe RTE is doing its best to become as efficient as she wishes it to be? It was unusual that the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands did not accept the submission made by RTE regarding a licence fee increase, as the Department's presentation of its own accounts was severely criticised by the Comptroller and Auditor General a number of weeks ago. He said that no Department is as inefficient as the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in preparing accounts. I cannot quote from the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but I recall that he outlined faults in the Department, so it is unusual that the Minister accused RTE of preparing an incomplete or inaccurate submission. What is this other than a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Cuireann sé iontas mór orm. Tá ceisteanna le freagairt agus sílim go bhfuilimid ag iarraidh chomhartha dóchais de chineál éigin, some indication of hope, a chur go dtí Raidió na Gaeltachta agus Lyric FM anseo inniú.

I support everything that has been said regarding the urgent cases of Raidió na Gaeltachta and Lyric FM, which represent the heart and soul of Irish culture. It is impressive that the stations employ young, vibrant and committed people who are part of the new Ireland. It good to see that young people are retaining our language and culture as we cannot afford to lose our national characteristics.

Deputy Michael Higgins and I have often pleaded on behalf of the Irish film industry. The Deputy speaks eloquently about the need to retain this country's cultural rights and responsibilities because if they are lost, they will be impossible to recover. We live in an era of dangers presented by commercialisation and globalisation, manifesting themselves in their worst form in the Murdoch style of downgrading important matters to money and superficiality. Regardless of whether we are enjoying bad times, it is essential not only that our culture and language are supported, but that they are reinvigorated. The radio stations to which I referred cannot afford to lose young and talented staff. It seemed for a while that the Irish language had been marginalised to Gaeltacht areas and to the seanchaí, so it is a source of joy to see young people's commitment to Irish.

A strong film industry is essential. One of the reasons the Irish film industry is so important is because English language films dominate the world, although unfortunately most of them are from the United States. Australia has achieved a great deal as regards the representation of its history and culture, its warts-and-all sense of identity. The Australian film industry was seen as a sideline to the United States's industry until the authorities there reasserted and recommitted themselves with greater investment in the industry. The unique nature of the Australian culture, people, identity and pride has been illuminated through cinema more than in any other way. The state and central investment in the film industry has been a key factor. The Irish film industry is capable of similar achievements. The market is dominated by American and British films. Cinema has a huge role to play not only in sustaining and exporting our sense of identity, but also in securing a niche for Ireland in European culture. Following my impassioned plea, I ask the Minister to look at what can be done in relation to providing further tax benefits to Irish film makers. Can we give them commitments further down the line? The lead-in time is very long and it can take years from the time a project is considered to be sound——

It takes two and a half years.

It takes two and a half years. I cannot let this go without making that special plea.

Some extraordinary facts emerged in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on Vote 42. Regarding the draft account, receipts collected by Waterways Ireland were incorrectly accounted for by the Department. A receipt of £6 million was omitted. I would like the Minister to assure us that there will not be a repeat of this when the Comptroller and Auditor General publishes his report next year.

Progress is being made with the subtitling department in RTE and more programmes during prime-time viewing hours feature subtitles. When we were discussing the Broadcasting Bill, 1999, the Minister referred the matter to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. Has the commission responded to her? When she is talking to the commission will she remind it of the need to increase subtitling?

The issue we are focusing on most this evening is that of the two decentralised radio stations. They are being devastated by the cutbacks in RTE. Deputy de Valera is the Minister with responsibility for the arts as well as being the Minister responsible for the Gaeltacht and the Irish language. She has been requested this evening to establish a fund to make good the shortfall of £370,000 in Raidió na Gaeltachta's Irish language programme-making budget of £700,000. If she is sincere about the Irish language and about broadcasting, she will undertake to make a positive decision to provide that money.

In regard to Lyric FM, the point has been well made that one has to take it as an overall product. I made the point that its news coverage ties in with the type of music it plays. The Lyric FM news is broadcast on the half hour while the RTE news is broadcast on the hour. Therefore, people who want to hear news will have to shift to another station to get it. This a most appalling departure and is ruinous of the integrity of the product. The Lyric FM news service cost £250,000 and there are other costs that come to £305,000. If the Minister's commitment to the arts is of the order it should be she will examine a mechanism for making the money available to the station. Let us make no bones about it, people expect to be served their notices on Friday so time is of the essence. Before leaving here today the Minister should give us a commitment that she will not allow these two excellent stations outside Dublin, one of which provides for the arts and the other for the Irish language and the arts, to be destroyed. Will she stand idly by?

Some suggestions were made to me which the Minister might convey to RTE. Is it possible to review the cap on advertising revenue to allow the station to generate more income? There was supposed to be a tightening up of the collection of licence fees, but the shortfall in the collection has grown even more enormously in recent times. Can that be tackled? RTE has foreign correspondents and bureaux in London, Brussels, America and even one in Islamabad from which a man reports on the television at all hours of the day and night. Are these bureaux necessary, given that the three people in Lyric FM are to be let go against the background of the provision of this news?

A number of issues have been brought up, most of them relating to broadcasting, but also regarding Waterways Ireland. I want to comment on the savings for Votes 41 and 43 because when I was speaking earlier I referred to the savings on Vote 42 and I wish to provide a more complete view.

Deputy O'Shea raised the matter of subtitling, which is an issue we spoke of at length. The Deputy and I were very much in favour of seeing what we could do to encourage subtitling to be more inclusive. The first priority of the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland is to look at the question of children and advertising. I will certainly follow on from the letters on these issues which I have written to the commission, of which the Deputy has received copies. I will remind the commission of what has been said and pass to the Deputy the correspondence on the matter.

Deputy McGinley referred to the fact that Raidió na Gaeltachta continues to do an excellent job. It is a very lean organisation in the sense that its members are, in the words of Deputy Barnes, "young, vital, committed, talented". It would be interesting if the Deputies were to ask RTE why Raidió na Gaeltachta and Lyric FM, whose members also happen to be young, vital committed and talented, were singled out. That is a question that should be posed to the RTE authority. I am not passing the buck. That is RTE's legal responsibility. Deputy Barnes mentioned the film industry and she will know of section 481, which has been expanded. That sends the right signal in regard to the financial assistance that was needed.

The question of the Waterways Ireland receipts also arose. The receipt was not omitted from the accounts. All that was missing was a footnote to the appropriation account stating that the £6 million from Waterways Ireland had been paid into the Exchequer as an Exchequer extra receipt. It was not an appropriation in aid. That correction is very important. The Chairman also mentioned the collection of licence fees and the cap on advertising revenue. As the Deputy will be aware, the collection is carried out by An Post. If he or any other Deputy has proposals which he or she believes are more appropriate, I would like to hear from him or her. The Chairman asked whether it is necessary to have these bureaus in various parts of the world. Again, that is a matter for the authority.

The overall saving on Votes 41 and 43 is £2.4 million. Under subheads M3 and M4 there were savings of £800,000 and £500,000, respectively. The savings arose because the Broadcasting Commission was not established as early in 2001 as had been expected and, therefore, did not use the funds.

Subhead P1 is a grant-in-aid for An Chomhairle Oidhreachta for administrative expensives of £940,000. The saving arises from the provision to acquire the new headquarters for the Heritage Council in 2001. It is proposed that the council acquire the Bishop's Palace in Kilkenny, a Church of Ireland property, as its new headquarters, but a series of issues must be sorted out before this comes to fruition. This is a matter for the Heritage Council, not the Department.

Under subhead Q2, miscellaneous services and visitor centres, there was a saving of £160,000. This subhead provided for miscellaneous services for visitors to heritage sites. The savings are due to the foot and mouth scare earlier in the year, during which a number of sites were closed with a consequent reduction in visitor numbers and slackening in demand for various services.

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State, their officials and members of the select committee for a comprehensive scrutiny of the Estimates.

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