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Select Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 2016

Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2016: Committee Stage

No. 3 on the agenda is the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2016. Under the Water Services Act 2014, a revised domestic public water charging system commenced on 1 January 2015. The Bill provides for the suspension of domestic water charges for nine months, from 1 April to 31 December 2016, to provide time for an extensive deliberative process to be undertaken on the funding of domestic water services. The Government will establish an expert commission which will make recommendations on a sustainable long-term funding model for the delivery of domestic water and wastewater services by Irish Water. An Oireachtas committee on the funding of domestic water services will then consider these recommendations and make its own. The Oireachtas will consider and vote on these recommendations.

I welcome the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Simon Coveney, and his officials from his Department.

It is my intention that the committee will conclude its consideration of the Bill on Committee Stage this afternoon. Is that agreed? Agreed. I refer members to the grouping of amendments for the purposes of the debate.

There is an amendment missing from the groupings - amendment No. 7.

The groupings comprise amendments Nos. 2, 4, 7, 9, 10 and 11.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2
Amendment No. 1 not moved.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, to delete lines 16 to 26 and substitute the following:

“ “(1A) (a) Notwithstanding section 21(1) of the No. 2 Act of 2013, Irish Water shall not charge for water services provided to a dwelling in respect of the period (in this subsection referred to as the ‘first-mentioned period’) commencing on 1 July 2016 and ending on 31 March 2017.".

My understanding is amendment Nos. 2 and 4 are being discussed together, or at least considered together. I hope amendment No. 2 will deal with the concerns expressed by Deputy Barry Cowen in amendment No. 4. I will speak to my amendment first. I propose to discuss amendments Nos. 2 and 4 together.

I indicated on Second Stage that I would bring forward amendments to deal with concerns that had been raised with me by members of the Opposition about the time lag between Irish Water's charging and billing periods. The amendments seek to bring clarity and leave no doubt on the periods in which charges are to be suspended. Amendment No. 2 seeks to align the period of suspension of water charging with the billing periods. While the Bill provides for charging to be suspended from 1 April to 31 December 2016, the amendment aligns the period of suspension of water charging with the billing period. Charging will be suspended from 1 July 2016 to 31 March 2017 and no water bills will be issued in this period. I hope the amendment will allay concerns that liability for domestic water charges may be reintroduced before the finalisation of the deliberative processes and Oireachtas decisions on the future funding model for domestic water services.

It was always the Government's intention to ensure there would no possibility of customers being asked to pay water bills until the Oireachtas had considered and voted on how domestic water services delivered by Irish Water would be funded into the future. The amendment clarifies my intentions in this regard. The nine-month period is an honest attempt by the Government to create the space in which a detailed and respectful debate on the funding of water services can take place. We need to allow the expert commission, the membership of which I announced last week, to make recommendations, a special Oireachtas committee to examine the expert commission's recommendations and endeavour to make its own and the Oireachtas to deliberate on these recommendations and, ultimately, make a final decision on the floor of the Dáil. I am facilitating this period of extensive deliberation without the distraction of either charging or billing for domestic water services by Irish Water.

Let me be clear - the amendment will ensure two things. First, no liability shall be created for water charges in the nine-month period from 1 July 2016 to 31 March 2017 or in any extension of the period of suspension. Second, no bill in respect of this period shall issue during the aforementioned nine-month period or at any stage in the future. The amendment will ensure no liability for water charges will recommence before the Oireachtas has considered and voted on the enduring funding model for domestic public water services. While a liability for the charging period of quarter 2 of 2016 - 1 April to 30 June 2016 - remains, the liability in the following quarter - quarter 3 of 2016 - will not be billed by Irish Water during the suspension period of 1 July 2016 to 31 March 2017 or any further extension of that suspension period. The liability for quarter 2 of 2016 will remain to be discharged at a future date after the period of suspension of water charges has ended.

The amendment will ensure that the deliberative process proceeds unimpeded by bills issuing from Irish Water.

Amendment No. 4 was tabled by Deputy Cowen. It has the same intent as the Government amendment No. 2, that is to amend the proposed suspension period to a period commencing on 1 July 2016 and ending on March 31 2017. I hope the Deputy will accept the amendment that I have brought forward, which will ensure the same change as that intended in amendment No. 4.

Does Deputy Cowen wish to move his amendment?

I will withdraw my amendment in favour of amendment No. 2.

For clarity, when the Minister said that no water bills will be issued during this period, he was referring to charges that would have otherwise been charged during this period. Irish Water will continue to issue bills during this period for any arrears for the period before 1 July. Is he saying no bills either for new charges or arrears will be issued?

I assume that after we go through the amendments we will have an opportunity to discuss some of the issues surrounding the comment made by the new chairperson of the Independent Commission. I hope that the Minister will give us some time, after we have debated the amendments, to raise the issue with him directly so he can hear our views on the matter.

I wish to mention three aspects while the Minister is here and because the commission has been mentioned. Before the Minister came in here I raised a procedural point. I believe a section on the commission should be inserted into the Bill. Also, its membership should have to come before Dáil Éireann for approval. The events of the past weekend have clearly brought home to us that is the case.

We are dealing with this Bill and the suspension of water cut-out charges

Sorry, if the Chairman does not mind. My query is relevant because the commission is being set up by this Bill.

The Minister might talk to us about this matter after we debate the legislation.

The Minister might want to agree to such an assertion.

My second query is on ministerial amendment No. 2. When the Minister says its purpose is to allow a period of deliberation during this nine-month period he should also accept that the installation of water meters is a real infringement on any period of deliberation. He should accept some of the amendments on the matter that were tabled by members if he wants a real period of reflection because people are very annoyed. Would he not leave the date for the renewal of water bills and put it in the hands of the Oireachtas rather than prescribe it now? I ask him to accept an amendment to that effect.

Does Deputy Casey wish to speak?

This is a suspension, not an abolition. If we did not have any future date then we would not have a clear suspension period. The commitment given in the amendment is for a nine-month suspension, which can be extended if the committee needs more time to carry out its work, and if the Minister judges that the time is necessary or if the committee asks for more time. If we had no end date then the provision would effectively be seen as an abolition until the Oireachtas decided to re-introduce water charges at some date in the future. We have given a commitment to suspend the charges for a nine-month period, not an abolition.

Even if I wanted to accept the amendments I could not do so because they have been ruled out of order. I cannot do anything about them. In addition, the amendments on the meters are out of order.

Yes, that is my understanding.

Has amendment No. 3 been ruled out of order?

Yes. We are debating amendments Nos. 2 and 4. Amendments Nos. 3, 5 and 6 have been ruled out of order.

Amendments Nos. 5, 6, 8 and 12 to 23, inclusive, have been ruled out of order.

Again, this is a matter for the Bills Office and not anyone else.

I do not make the decision.

It is funny how the committee or Minister do not make the decision but somebody sitting in the Bills Office makes the decision.

As the Deputy has said, the Bills Office ruled the amendment out of order and I stand by its decision. I call on Deputy Ó Broin.

On what grounds?

I would ask the Minister to please answer my question, for clarity.

I meant to answer the question. There will be no billing during this period. Obviously arrears that have built up in advance of 1 July of this year still stand but there is not going to be a pursuing of bills or arrears during the nine-month period. In other words, we are trying to freeze all billing activity during the nine-month period in order to create, if possible, a space for discussion and debate that will involve an expert commission, an Oireachtas committee and, ultimately, will involve ourselves making a decision on the floor of the Dáil in around nine months' time.

I asked the Minister a second question.

What was the Deputy's second question?

I asked for some time to be set aside after we deal with the amendments.

Yes, let us first deal with the Bill if that is agreeable.

I was going to raise my issues when we reached the section but as they are being raised during our discussion of the amendments I will mention them now. When we were in private session I supported Deputy Coppinger because I also have two amendments that were ruled out of order. My first amendment is on this section. I sought a referendum to keep the water supply and wastewater treatment supply in public ownership. Unfortunately, my amendment was ruled out of order not because it would cost the State but because it was not considered to be relevant to the Bill. The rule is that we must challenge the Bills Office over its ruling. I challenge the ruling because I believe my amendment is relevant to the Bill and to the views of people on Irish Water generally.

In the context of the period during which water charges are to be suspended, the Minister has left it open-ended as to how long the period could be extended. Does he have a view on how long the period could be extended?

I ask the Minister for clarity on a matter. One might say this matter might not be relevant but I believe it is. Will Ireland be fined by the European Commission for suspending water charges?

My response to both of the Deputy's questions is that the period is not open-ended. We are talking about providing an extension of time to allow the committee to complete its work. It is a nine-month suspension and if more time is needed to allow the committee to complete its work, let us say they ask for time or if the Minister believes that the committee needs more time, then this legislation grants the power to do so. This is not a case of kicking the matter down the road for two years because nobody wants to deal with an awkward issue. It is a case of ensuring that the Oireachtas and the committee have an opportunity to complete the work that we are trying to do here. The legislation will enable us to put options to the Oireachtas and then have a democratic vote that I hope will be responsible and informed in terms of how we fund the domestic water supply.

I will meet the Commissioner next week and I have already spoken to him on the telephone about this issue. He is happy that I am meeting him to talk through in detail the thinking behind what we are doing here. Anybody who lives outside of Ireland needs to understand that this is a very sensitive political issue, a fact that we have found out in recent days and indeed for the past 18 months or so.

The nine-month suspension period is a review period, then options will be put and a democratic decision will be taken with all of the informed choices taken account of. I believe that the EU Commission will understand what we are trying to do here but I do not want to speak for the Commission. The Commissioner is well able to speak for himself. I would be surprised if we did not get facilitation and some flexibility from the Commission on this matter. We are not abolishing water charges. We are suspending water charges for a period of debate, discussion and reflection. Following all of that then we will make a decision. We will have to make a decision with all of the consequences that come with the different choices that will be presented.

I will go through that in some detail with the Commissioner next week. We will wait to see what he has to say. I do not wish to speak for him.

In response to Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's question on public ownership, as per her amendment No. 21, I have said repeatedly that I have an open mind on how we can reassure people that there is no privatisation agenda, because there is no such agenda. The Fine Gael and Labour parties were in Government together - - - - -

I accept that Minister but not everybody does, unfortunately.

and I am happy to have a discussion on how we can reassure people who may be sceptical or may have concerns about future public ownership of Irish Water's infrastructure. Perhaps the Oireachtas committee will make recommendations on this but we will have to wait and see. I certainly have an open mind on it.

I know a referendum seems like a solution, but referendums sometimes have knock on consequences. There is a great deal of water infrastructure in the country, particularly around group water schemes, which is privately owned at present. There is nobody campaigning to bring them into public ownership. There are considerations that we need to go through. I would be open to constructive suggestions as to how we can give further reassurance.

There is already a great deal of reassurance, the former Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly provided reassurance and incorporated it in legislation, requiring a future Minister to have a national plebiscite before he or she would change the ownership structure or the infrastructure of Irish Water. One could not be more emphatic than that. There may be some who will say that a future Government can chance legislation if it has a majority. Let us see how we can address that issue. I have no attachment to any possibility of privatisation or the sale of Irish Water infrastructure. That is not the agenda of the Government. It is not my agenda. We want this to be a single utility in public ownership and we want to build public trust and faith in it as a body that can deliver safe water supplies at a competitive cost.

I think I have been quite consistent. Let us wait and see how that be done. Some people have suggested a referendum but there are complex issues around wording it and how one might structure it and when it might be done. There may be other ways in which we can provide that reassurance.

I call Deputy Coppinger

On the issue of reassurance that the Minister raised in response to the point of privatisation. Privatisation can happen under any government. It does not matter if we take his word for it. This Government is very much in favour of privatisation. Broadband is to be privatised. The health service potentially would have been privatised so one can understand why people have that view. On the issue of reassurance, this is a select committee, comprising members of the Dáil, to discuss housing, water, planning and local government. I am a little surprised at some of the amendments that have been ruled out of order, in particular the amendments on water metering. That is surely very linked in with the issue of payment.

We will not debate the question of the amendments that were ruled out of order. Let us continue to speak on the amendment we are discussing now. I think the Minister stated that when we had concluded the discussion on the Bill, he would speak at the end of the meeting on some of the issues that were raised.

It is the issue of reassurance - - - - -

That is okay.

I wonder what we are doing here, or whether we are simply wasting our time. We have had a commission established with a Chairman who has already got a preconceived outcome - - - - -

Deputy Coppinger, we are not discussing the Commission. With respect, Deputy Coppinger we are speaking on the amendment

Chairman, are you interested in facilitating a discussion on one of the major issues that is going on in the country?

We are not here to talk about the commission at present. We are dealing with amendment No. 2. With respect, - - - - -.

The Minister said he would discuss the other issue when we have concluded the Bill. If the Deputy has a question in regard to amendment No. 2, I would appreciate it.

I have. I ask the Minister at the outset to reassure us that there is a point to us as a Dáil committee actually even discussing this because already it seems that we are discussing a commission at the end of the debate, when a chairman has been selected who has a preconceived outcome in his own mind as to what it should be.

Second, when will we hear as a committee who else will be on this commission. Will the Dáil get a look at who will be on this commission. It seems to me that already amendments on water metering, a referendum and other key issues related to water charges have been ruled out of order. Yet it is the Bills office which does this.

Today, we are dealing with the Water Services (Amendment)Bill 2016, a Bill that provides for the suspension of water charges. The Minister has already acknowledged that he will talk to the committee.

The Minister has already acknowledged that he will talk to the committee on the other issue when we complete the process of the Bill before us.

There are a multiplicity of issues around water, on how we pay for it, how it is delivered. The point of setting up a commission and also having a special Oireachtas committee to look at all those issues are that some issues the Deputy raises now can be teased out.

What we are trying to facilitate now is a very simple piece of amending legislation that allows for the suspension of water charges for a nine month period to create space for that process to proceed. We are not attempting to legislate for all of the solutions in different areas. We are simply following through on a commitment that was made during the competence and supply discussions with Fianna Fáil, to which we are also committed and we hope others will work with this to follow through on what we committed to do early in the lifetime of the Government, that is to suspend water charges so as to create space to have discussions around a range of issues that are linked to it. That is all we are trying to do here. This Bill is two to three pages of legislation. It is not attempting to do a whole series of other things, such as reassurance of public ownership and so. They are other issues that can be teased out at a later stage.

Equally, they could be dealt with in this Bill.

We could do loads of things in this Bill. We are doing what we committed to do. There will be an opportunity to debate all the other issues at a later stage within the process that this nine month period is facilitating.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 3 to 6, inclusive, not moved.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 3, to delete lines 27 to 31, and in page 4, to delete lines 1 and 2 and substitute the following:

“(b) Where the Minister is informed by the committee that it will not complete its work on or before 31 March 2017 or is otherwise satisfied that the committee will not complete its work on or before that date, he or she may, on or before that date, make an order extending the first-mentioned period for such further period, commencing on the day immediately following the expiration of the first-mentioned period, as does not exceed the period that he or she believes the committee will require to complete its work and is specified in the order.”.

Amendment No. 7 further clarifies the provision to provide for the Oireachtas committee to request an extension of time in order to facilitate it in the completion of its work. The draft legislation as it stands states that if the Minister is satisfied that the committee needs more time, he or she shall extend the period by ministerial order. The amended text ensures that I, as Minister, have to be satisfied that the committee does indeed need the additional time requested in order to complete its work. I can assure the committee that I will ensure it is afforded whatever amount of time is needed and that I will have no difficulty using the power to extend that time period if it is warranted.

This amendment is therefore worded to ensure the Minister will only extend the suspension period if he or she is satisfied that the special Oireachtas committee genuinely needs extra time for its work. I think there was a view that it was important to have in the wording the facilitation of a request by the committee, which is what is covered in the new amended wording, as well as the Minister's option if he is satisfied that more time is needed. That was proposed following a discussion with Deputy Cowen. I can understand where he is coming from because the discussions were always on the basis that if the committee needs more time and requests more time, the Minister may facilitate that. That is wording change we have made, which I think is more accurate in terms of the commitments and the reassurance that were given a number of weeks ago on this issue.

I am glad the Minister has clarified that he will speak to the Commissioner next week. If there is an impression, and I know the Minister has told us that it is not the case, that this is kicking the can down the road, then we are far more likely to be fined by the Commission. l would be concerned that the way this amendment is worded does not say a specific extra period. I can understand why not, but it does not rule out kicking the can down the road.

It does.

Let us be clear on what the amendment provides. It states: "Where the Minister is informed by the committee that it will not complete its work on or before 31 March 2017 or is otherwise satisfied that the committee will not complete its work on or before that date, he or she may, on or before that date, make an order extending the first-mentioned period for such further period". It is specifically linked to the process needing more time to complete the work, as opposed to somebody saying: "This is awkward politically, so let us push it off for two years." That is not what is envisaged here or what was agreed. We have asked the Attorney General to be quite clear in terms of the wording to make sure we are true to the commitment as to what was agreed.

The amendment also states "for such further period, commencing on the day immediately following the expiration of the first-mentioned period, as does not exceed the period that he or she believes the committee will require to complete its work and is specified in the order". In other words, if I am still a Minister at that point and if the chair of the committee says that they need an extra month or six weeks, I have to be satisfied that is a fair request and then we will agree to an extension to allow the committee a reasonable period of time to finish its work if that is necessary. However, members should not forget that we have given three months here for the committee to do its work. Therefore, I expect the commission will finish its work in five months, or perhaps even sooner, but we are giving five months for that process. The committee will then have three months to consider those recommendations and come up with its own views and recommendations, and then the Oireachtas will have a month. That sets out where the nine months period we are talking about is credible. Let us wait and see how that transpires. It is very clear in this amendment that this is about allowing a reasonable amount of time to finish the process that is under way if that is required. The legislation facilitates that; it facilitates the Minister to be able to do that. It is not about avoiding awkward decisions. This is an awkward issue, let us face it. There are deep divisions politically on this issue within and across political parties. That is why we are trying to get an informed series of recommendations around which, hopefully, we can build some consensus and on which we can get a majority in the Oireachtas. Let us wait and see whether that is possible.

Are there any further questions for the Minister?

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 8 has been ruled out of order.

Amendment No. 8 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 9 to 11, inclusive, will be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 4, to delete lines 15 to 24 and substitute the following:

“(d) Notwithstanding section 21(1) of the No. 2 Act of 2013, Irish Water shall not charge for water services provided to a dwelling in respect of any period specified in an order under paragraph (b) or (c).”.

I propose to take amendments Nos. 9 to 11, inclusive, together. I have brought forward amendment No. 9, to ensure that Irish Water does not charge domestic customers for water services during any period of the extension of the suspension of water charges. Again, this is to ensure that the period of deliberation on the future funding of domestic water services is not in any way distracted by political division over the continuation of water charging and billing. We want to take politics out of the debate, within reason and where possible, and to allow the facts to be brought forward and debated openly without that distraction.

I can assure the committee that the requisite time will be afforded to the deliberative process, and charging will be remain suspended in this period, to allow the expert commission on a long-term funding model for the delivery of water and wastewater services by Irish Water and the Oireachtas committee on the funding for domestic water service to complete their work. In addition, the Government may need additional time to consider the Oireachtas committee's recommendations. The amendment proposes to prohibit Irish Water from charging for domestic water services during any period of extended suspension for Government consideration of such recommendations.

I have brought forward amendment No. 10 with the intention of ensuring Irish Water does not use bills in respect of quarter two 2016 during the period of suspension of water charges, that is from 1 July 2016 to the end of March 2017, for any extension to allow the Oireachtas committee complete its work and for any extension to allow the Government consider the Oireachtas committee's recommendations.

This will ensure there is no distraction, political or otherwise, during the period culminating in the Oireachtas deciding on how we and future generations are to fund domestic water services.

Amendment No. 11 is a technical amendment arising from amendment No. 10 which proposes to insert a new subsection.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 4, between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following:

"(e) Irish Water shall not—

(i) before 31 March 2017,

(ii) (in circumstances where an order is made under paragraph (b)) before the expiration of the period specified in that order,

(iii) (in circumstances where an order is made under paragraph (c)) before the expiration of the period specified in that order, or

(iv) (in circumstances where an order is made under paragraph (b) and an order is made under paragraph (c)) before the expiration of the period specified in the order under paragraph (c),

issue a bill for water services provided to a dwelling in respect of the period 1 April 2016 to 30 June 2016.".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 4, line 25, to delete "(e) In" and substitute "(f) In".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 12 to 17, inclusive, not moved.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3
Amendments Nos. 18 to 21, inclusive, not moved.
Section 3 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.

I thank the Minister and his officials for their attendance.

I thank the select committee, in particular the clerk, and members for facilitating this meeting at short notice. There are time considerations involved in passing this legislation.

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