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Select Committee on Justice and Equality debate -
Tuesday, 23 Jan 2018

Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017: Committee Stage (Resumed)

SECTION 7

Apologies have been received from Deputy Jack Chambers. He has arranged for Deputy James Lawless to substitute for him for voting purposes.

The meeting has been convened to resume our consideration of Committee Stage of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017. I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and his officials. When we last considered the Bill, we had reached section 7. Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire indicated that amendment No. 16 was being withdrawn.

Prior to moving to decisions on amendments Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive, is there any further point any member wishes to make? We have already had a lengthy discussion on the group of amendments from Nos. 16 to 21, inclusive, and amendment No. 124.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 10, line 6, to delete “Subject to subsection (1), where” and substitute “Where”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendment No. 18 is in the names of Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and Jack Chambers.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 10, line 10, to delete “and” where it secondly occurs.

The amendment simply involves the deletion of the word "and". The amendment is necessary stylistically for amendment No. 20.

If the Deputy withdraws the amendment, he will have an opportunity to retable it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 10, lines 11 and 12, to delete “, to the extent feasible and practicable,”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendment No. 20 is in the names of Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and Jack Chambers.

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 10, line 12, to delete “whole.” and substitute the following:

“whole, and

(c) the objective that there shall be proficiency in the Irish language amongst the judiciary.”.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

We move on to amendment No. 21.

I will not press amendment No. 21 now, but I reserve the right to re-enter it. I am not sure I have the wording exactly right at this stage.

Amendment No. 21 not moved.
Question put: "That section 7, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Question declared carried.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 10, lines 19 to 26, to delete all words from and including “established” in line 19 down to and including line 26 and substitute “established a body to be known as An Comisúin um Cheapacháin Breithiúnacha or, in the English langauge, the Judicial Appointments Commission (in this Act referred to as the “Commission”).”.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

I move amendment No. 23:

In page 10, to delete lines 28 and 29.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That section 9, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 10
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."

Section 10 relates solely to the functions of the relevant committees and how the functions of the commission are to be performed through the committees. Consistent with earlier amendments, if we are going to do away with the committees, section 10 should not stand in the Bill.

Despite the earlier wishes of the committee in terms of amendments, it is important that we accommodate the presidents of all the courts in the matter of the commission. It was felt that the most appropriate way of doing this was to establish certain committees. Notwithstanding the amendments to earlier sections, particularly section 9, it is fundamental that the offices of the presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court be fully acknowledged and accommodated in the legislation. In such circumstances, I am of the view that we will be obliged to revisit this issue at a later Stage.

I agree with the Minister that the presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court should be accommodated. I also agree with Deputy O'Callaghan's amendment. We just need to accommodate them as full members of the commission.

Like Deputy Wallace, I believe there is a role for the two positions concerned but I also believe that another mechanism can be found to facilitate this, be it that they serve as ex officio or additional lay members. This issue will need to be revisited on Report Stage. In the context of the proposal that the commission, as a whole, be responsible for the appointment of judges, I believe will be necessary to revisit this section.

Would Deputy O'Callaghan like to comment?

I agree with the Minister and Deputy Wallace that the presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court should be accommodated but they should not be treated as poor relations. Rather, they should be full members of the commission. The solution for the Minister is to include them by means of an amendment on Report Stage.

If he wants to retain his objective of having a lay majority, he can still do so, but the presidents of these courts should be included.

I do not want to delay the committee, but I acknowledge the importance of what has been said. Notwithstanding the manner in which divisions are taken, I also acknowledge the positive disposition of Deputies Mick Wallace and Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire. I have listened to what Deputy Jim O'Callaghan stated. I ask that between now and Report Stage we engage with a view towards moving the type of accommodation which Deputy Mick Wallace and others on the Opposition benches deem to be appropriate and which, I dare say, are necessary.

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 5.

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.

Níl

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Question declared lost.
SECTION 11
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I oppose this section for the same reasons I opposed section 10.

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 5.

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.

Níl

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Question declared lost.
SECTION 12

Amendment No. 24 is in the name of Deputy Sean Sherlock. As he is not present, I propose to mark the amendment as "not moved" and proceed immediately to amendment No. 25.

Amendment No. 24 not moved.

I am advised that amendment No. 25 is out of order because it involves a potential charge on Revenue. Therefore, I cannot allow it to be moved. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan can revisit the matter if he so chooses.

I note the Chairman's comments. Obviously, this is not his decision.

It certainly is not.

I will revisit it. It is important that we get the Presidents of the District Court and the Circuit Court onto the Commission. I am glad to hear the Minister will give consideration as to how that can be done.

Amendment No. 25 not moved.

Amendment No. 26 is one of a group of amendments - amendments Nos. 26 to 33, inclusive, and amendments Nos. 36, 37, 79 and 80. Amendment No. 26 is in the names of Deputies Wallace and Clare Daly.

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 12, to delete line 3 and substitute the following:

“(d) the Chief Commissioner of Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission,”.

Although not a member of the Government according to the Constitution, the Attorney General sits at Cabinet and has a close working relationship with the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality. This amendment provides for his or her removal from the Judicial Appointments Commission, with a view to keeping a healthy distance between Government and this first stage of the process when the Judicial Appointments Commission selects and recommends a three person short-list. In any event, the Attorney General as legal adviser to the Government will naturally be involved at the second stage of the process when the Government considers and decides which of the three names to nominate to the President for appointment.

It would be procedurally unnecessary and incorrect to duplicate the Attorney General's involvement at both first and second stages of the process. Both the Law Society and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, in their 2014 submissions as part of the consultation process suggested the removal of the Attorney General for this and other reasons. The ICCL referred to the Attorney General as a political appointee. Replacing the Attorney General with the chief commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, would improve the balance of the commission as the IHREC chief commissioner cannot be regarded as either a wholly legal or a wholly lay person. Initially when we had a balance of six and six plus one, it would bring a bit of extra balance. Given we are looking at getting rid of the smaller subcommittees, the numbers are going to work out a bit different. I still think that getting rid of the Attorney General from this section will help us to reach a good place when we reconfigure the full commission, now that we have voted to get rid of the subcommittees. It adds a welcome human rights perspective to the selection and recommendation process, ensuring that section 42 of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 is adhered to.

It is a statutory body established by the State in accordance with the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014. It has a statutory function to advise the State in regard to compliance with human rights standards, both domestic and international. It is particularly appropriate that its chief commissioner would have input in regard to the appointment of judges, which is a fundamental rule of law issue in any democracy. I refer to the Law Society's submission in March 2017. It stated:

If the new Commission is to be genuinely independent in its function, there should be no reason for the Attorney General, who also sits at the Cabinet table to participate in discussions of the Commission. The Attorney General should give his or her perspective at Cabinet or in the course of discussions with relevant Cabinet members following receipt of recommendations made to Government by the Commission. Furthermore, as the Attorney General is a major purchaser of legal services in the State, there is a risk of conflict of professional interest in the Attorney General being the central element at each stage of the judicial selection process. There is no good reason why the Attorney General must be a member of the Commission. It is not the standard practice in comparable jurisdictions. It diminishes the independence of the Commission and the Government will have the benefit of the advice of the Attorney General at a political level in any event. The Society has one of its central functions an ongoing vigilance for the protection of the independence of the legal profession. When an obvious conflict of interest such as this arises, it is the duty of the Society to challenge it. This is a brand new system and as a result assumptions about the merit of the status quo must be challenged.

I will speak to amendment No. 31, which is an enabling amendment allowing for the more substantial amendment No. 50. That amendment is not included in this grouping, so it is necessary to explain the amendments.

One of the points raised on Second Stage was that, while the issue of a lay majority was favoured by many, a lay membership alone would not suffice, in that lay members would need to be more than the traditional State board appointees. They would have to have a wide range of perspectives and experiences and be representative of society as a whole, covering various organisations and sectors.

The amendments propose three different models. If I understand Deputies Daly and Wallace correctly, one model replaces the Attorney General with the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. I support that. They also propose replacing two of the six lay members with a representative of the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, and a representative of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL. Deputies O'Callaghan and Chambers propose that there be six specific nominees for lay appointment.

My approach is that there needs to be flexibility. While the ICCL, FLAC and the IHREC are worthy organisations to nominate people, there are other bodies. For example, the National Women's Council of Ireland might have an interest in the manner in which violence against women is treated in the courts and, consequently, be interested in judicial appointments. There is any number of other relevant organisations, including the Migrants Right Centre Ireland and the Immigrant Council of Ireland.

Rather than be prescriptive, my proposed approach is for six lay nominees to be divided into two categories. Three are described in amendments Nos. 31 and 50 as "the General Lay Appointments" who would be appointed through the traditional Public Appointments Service, PAS, approach. The others would be what I have called "the Diversity and Social Inclusion Appointments". This would allow for any organisation that is interested in nominating persons and can demonstrate its relevance to the objectives of diversity as outlined in section 7 and-or the nine grounds in the Employment Equality Acts to be considered an organisation that can nominate. The PAS could maintain a list of organisations capable of nominating. It would then be for the judicial appointments commission to choose between their nominations to the three lay positions.

The advantage of this flexibility is that a call can go out to interested organisations, such as those I have mentioned, for nominations of persons whom they believe to be suitable for appointment to the judicial appointments commission. Those persons would have to demonstrate their capacity in terms of the eight criteria outlined in the legislation. Although I favour this approach over those favoured by other Deputies, I have a preference for that of Deputies Daly and Wallace. While there is merit in the approach taken by Deputies O'Callaghan and Chambers, it is more restrictive. The flexibility of the other amendment is preferable.

In some ways, we are probably trying to do the same thing by reconfiguring the lay membership and striking a better, more representative balance as part of that. Amendments in the preceding group - they could not be moved because Deputy Sherlock was not present - overlapped with this in some respects.

I am not sure what the final configuration will be and so we probably will not be able to deal with this issue until Report Stage.

Under the current system, lay people are very much particular types of individuals and they come, in the main, from the commercial and financial sectors and their curricula vitae would reflect those of senior civil servants or business big-wigs, which is fine but we need more than that. The amendments deal with some of the aspects around how laypersons are configured. As Deputy Ó Laoghaire stated, Fianna Fáil has said that all of the laypersons should come from organisations. However, we would prefer a mix, with some coming from organisations and others coming by way of appointment through the PAS. I acknowledge there is a bit of a middle ground in that proposal. In our rush to get the amendments in, which is many months ago now, we may not have properly added up our sums. For example, the four should perhaps be a three to ensure balance. However, we are not fixed on that for the moment. The PAS, for all its good work, cannot be viewed as being entirely independent. There are issues of potential explicit political influence and, moreover, the subtle influence of a particular world view of the types of people who would meet the criteria. Our amendments seek to correct the current loading of the commission with a certain type of person that the PAS would have to consider. We want to ensure that the commission is a lot more diverse and has a range of views and voices.

I agree with the point made by Deputy Wallace. We are proposing to replace the Attorney General with the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, which may have to change in light of the consensus for the inclusion of the presidents of the District Court and the Circuit Court. As Deputy Wallace pointed out earlier, the elimination of the Attorney General would free up a space for one of them. We would be happy enough on that score. However, the fact remains that there is no reason that the Attorney General should sit on this commission. I do not see what expertise he or she could bring to the role of appointing judicial members. The Attorney General is already involved in the appointments process at Cabinet in any event. No other model replicates that.

In light of the changes made earlier, I do not think any of these amendments will achieve what we are trying to do. However, we remain adamant on the Attorney General not being a member of the commission. If he or she is not a member, it would free up space for others to serve on the commission. We are not overly hung up on the lay versus legal issue, rather we are more concerned about the type of layperson that would be appointed in order to ensure the diversity needed.

What we are debating is how laypersons are appointed. This could be done by asking the PAS to select the individuals but we are proposing that they be nominated by particular bodies. For example, the Act which currently governs the appointment of the Garda Commissioner states that the PAS shall run a competition to select a new person for the role. We all would be very fearful of that but, fortunately, within that legislation is a role for the Policing Authority. It is important to have a body with the experience and expertise to advise on the type of person for which the PAS should be looking. If we allow a situation whereby the PAS can nominate a person based on competition or open application, we will not then be able to mould the commission in a way that is reflective of society. It would be much better to have bodies that are reflective of different aspects of Irish society yet have a knowledge and involvement in the courts nominate who they would wish to be a member of the commission. It is a role they would take very seriously. They would be able to cajole people who may in the ordinary course of events not apply to the PAS to take on the role.

I support amendment No. 26, which seeks to do two things, the first of which is to remove the Attorney General from the commission. I recently put forward legislation on behalf of Fianna Fáil that provided for a judicial appointments commission of which the Attorney General would not be a member. The reason for the latter was not that the Attorney General lacks the relevant expertise or knowledge but because we thought it was inappropriate for him or her to have two bites at the cherry.

The Attorney General would not only be a member of the commission, which would recommend to the Government who should be nominated to a position, but would also be present when those names came to the Cabinet, advising the Government on who should or should not be appointed. That would have entailed too much of a governmental involvement in the commission.

The Attorney General, whoever that may be, has significant expertise in terms of advising on judicial appointments, but that is a function played by the Attorney General in Cabinet when he or she is advising the Minister on who or should not be appointed. If the names that come from the commission are not adequate or acceptable or if the Attorney General believes that they are not appropriate for appointment, he or she can say so and the Government can refuse them. Notwithstanding all of this structure, the Government maintains the prerogative to appoint or not appoint people recommended to it.

Amendment No. 26 proposes to replace the Attorney General with the Chief Commissioner of the IHREC. I would have preferred that body to be able to nominate someone. Notwithstanding that, I will support the amendment and may table a further amendment on Report Stage.

Regarding the other significant amendments, I note with surprise Deputy Wallace's amendment No. 30. I support it fully. He is proposing to include the President of the Circuit Court on the commission. I note it with surprise because my amendment No. 25 was ruled out of order. However, I am pleased to see that Deputy Wallace's proposal has not been ruled out of order.

I have concerns about Deputy Ó Laoghaire's amendment. It would complicate the process a great deal if some members were appointed under the diversity and social inclusion heading while others were appointed under the general lay person heading.

I will support Deputy Daly's amendment seeking to reduce the number of lay people from six to four.

Amendment No. 26, which was moved by Deputies Wallace and Daly and debated by other Deputies, proposes to replace the Attorney General as a member of the commission with the Chief Commissioner of the IHREC. I cannot accept the amendment. One needs to acknowledge the importance of the role of the Attorney General and the manner in which that officer operates. One also needs to acknowledge the fact that the Attorney General has been a member of the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board, JAAB, since it was established more than 20 years ago. Given that the Office of the Attorney General is the constitutional legal adviser to the Government and the Government has a constitutional role to play in advising the President on the persons to be appointed to judicial office, it seems that the presence of the Attorney General on the new commission would provide a key line of continuity between the design, oversight and management of the selection process for appointees to the office of judge and the ultimate decision by the Government as to the persons who are to be appointed.

As the Chairman will appreciate, the Attorney General has a unique position as the recognised head of the Bar, plays an important function in both legal professions and is a key user of legal services for and on behalf of the Government. Forming views as part of the commission process as to which candidates are or are not appropriate for appointment to judicial office, the perspective and focus of the Chief Commissioner of the IHREC would be different in nature from the Attorney General's.

With the greatest of respect to the office of Chief Commissioner, that person would not have the same perspective in terms of members of the professions.

Under section 15(7), which outlines the areas of desired professional expertise and experience for the selection of the lay members of the commission, we already have a specific reference to human rights. I am somewhat amused by Deputy Daly's continued reference to this process as being occupied, directed, orchestrated or in the possession of civil servants and officials. I see no reference to that in the legislation. I invite members to examine section 15(7). None of it makes any reference to anyone other than persons connected with areas of importance throughout the NGO sphere as well as agencies and stakeholders across the gamut of appropriate and necessary organisations within our society. To suggest that the Civil Service has in some way an inordinate amount of influence under the new proposals is misleading. Regarding amendment No. 26, though, there is an important role for the Attorney General in the process.

Deputy Daly's amendments Nos. 27 and 28 have been discussed and seem to propose that the practising solicitor and barrister, along with the lay members of the commission, be selected by the PAS. I am unsure as to whether that would be an advantageous position.

In amendment No. 30, Deputy Wallace seeks to remove the lay chairperson selected by the PAS under section 15, but it is the Government's view that having a lay majority and lay chair is important. We should continue along those lines. Therefore, I am not prepared to accept that amendment.

Has the Minister concluded?

I have a rather extensive speaking note on the other amendments to which reference has not been specifically made.

They are included in the group.

It is important that I refer to them. Members might then respond, if the Chairman agrees it is appropriate to do so. The group includes a number of important amendments to which specific reference has not been made.

The committee will be aware of the commitment in the programme for Government to replace the JAAB with the new commission, which would have an independent chairperson selected by the PAS and approved by an Oireachtas committee - presumably, that would be this committee, which I would regard as the appropriate one - and a majority of laypersons, including persons of independent disposition, all of whom would have some form of specialist qualification to which reference has been made.

It is essential that the reforms open up the process to ensure a more meaningful and effective input for and on behalf of those persons who are effectively consumers of the services of the courts. They rely, on an ongoing basis, on the fairness of the judicial system and on those who, through the expertise and specialties, can make a substantial contribution to the selection process.

When considering the chairperson role for the new commission, it must be acknowledged that the role of the commission goes beyond the rather narrow remit of the current Judicial Appointments Advisory Board regime. All those wishing to be considered for appointment, including serving judges, will be required to go through the commission. The shortlist work will be far more onerous and will reduce what is practically an unlimited number of names at present down to only three names for one vacancy. A range of new procedures, skills and attributes will be drawn up in the form of published statements. Relevant committees for appointment will be expected to engage in the associated operations. Commission members will design the requirements as the commission takes foot.

I envisage an important role for the new chairperson. I believe it is important that the role is undertaken by a person with an appropriate skill set.

The board is changing into the commission. I believe the lay involvement in the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board currently is inadequate. I welcome the contribution of members in respect of the lay or non-legal contribution to the commission and the status of the non-legal or lay chairperson. Again, it is important at every remove to acknowledge that the functions under the Bill are far more extensive than the existing functions of the appointments board.

We have considered the neighbouring jurisdictions of England, Wales and Scotland. The appointment boards in those jurisdictions are chaired by persons who are accepted as being eminent non-legal or laypersons. I acknowledge that in Northern Ireland the chief justice presides over the appointments commission there. England and Wales have non-legal and non-judicial chairpersons of their appointment commissions. In Scotland, the judicial appointments board has a non-judicial, non-legal or lay chairperson. These systems are working well. I am not suggesting they are perfect or ideal, but they are working well. It is important to look to designs, models and systems that have been working well.

I believe that we are striking at the heart of the legislation. We need to address certain issues to ensure that ultimately we bring about the best in this endeavour.

Section 15 provides for an independent, detached and objective process that will secure the services of the appointees. A Public Appointments Service model has been operating in our public services for some years now. Appointments to State boards are open to scrutiny. The system is effective and transparent. I do not subscribe to the views that I have heard that appear to question the integrity or process in the matter of the work of the Public Appointments Service.

Moreover, I believe that the Public Appointments Service is the appropriate body in the selection of lay members. This ties in with what I said earlier in respect of section 15(7).

The Opposition amendments do not provide for a role for the Public Appointments Service and their acceptance would involve the deletion of section 15. They envisage a mechanism for securing the lay membership of the commission based on a nominating body approach. The bodies referenced include the Citizens Information Board, the Free Legal Advice Centres or the Top Level Appointments Committee. I am concerned at Deputies putting forward a nominating body mechanism that is focused on specific number of organisations, including the Citizens Information Board, An tÚdarás um Ard-Oideachas, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, the Free Legal Advice Centres and the Top Level Appointments Commission. It is fair to say that there are many other mechanisms that may well be considered. I hope that we could do so in a way to ensure the broadest possible base of participation. Vital bodies in this context include, for example, the Legal Services Regulatory Authority, victim support groups, Traveller representative groups, community Garda divisions, the Rape Crisis Centre, Amnesty International, domestic violence action organisations, the Immigrant Council of Ireland, refugee networks, the Children's Rights Alliance, Ruhama and many other similar groups that one could consider. I do not believe that the best approach involves going for a list of nominated bodies, as suggested in the amendments. Indeed, at one stage Deputy O'Callaghan indicated that potentially a number of bodies could be considered as appropriate nominators. It is important that, in the context of these amendments, we give appropriate consideration to these points.

The Minister is making these arguments. Our argument for taking the Attorney General out of the first stage process is based on the fact that the Attorney General is involved in the second stage process. It is not a question of undermining the Attorney General. We simply do not see why the Attorney General should be involved in both stages. It does not seem to stack up.

The Minister made a comparison between the expertise of the Attorney General and the chief commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. First, we are not doing away with the expertise of the Attorney General given that the Attorney General will be involved in the second stage. Second, given that we are keen to get extra bodies on the full commission, namely, the President of the District Court and the President of the Circuit Court, I am prepared to look at whether we insist on the chief commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission being part of the final commission when we go to Report Stage. This is because we have no wish for the commission to get any bigger than it needs to be in order to be workable. Certainly, we will consider that concession given our determination to ensure that the presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court are involved.

I wish to address amendment No. 30 as I have not yet done so. The amendment removes the proposed Government provision to appoint a chairperson through the Public Appointments Service. The Minister has addressed this already. The Minister has expressed his dislike for our questioning of the position of the Public Appointments Service. I do not believe any of us has undermined the service. Having said that, the service is made up of political appointees.

If Napoli were playing Torino in a cup final next week, and Napoli were allowed to appoint a commission from which the referee would be picked, we would be a little bit concerned as to which side the referee might be on. The proposed amendment to section 15 envisages that the commission shall elect its own chairperson from among its membership and that the chairperson may or may not be a lay person, depending on how the members vote. I am not overly concerned about whether the chairperson is a legal or lay person. The point is that I think it would increase the independence of the commission to allow its members to elect the chairperson. If we did that, I would lay money on it that the members would pick a lay chairperson in the first instance. It would give the members a greater sense of ownership and a greater role in the direction of the commission, encouraging a more independent and original statutory body rather than having the commission steered from the outset by a possible career civil servant, which would be the likely outcome of the Public Appointments Service, PAS, competition envisaged in the Government's proposals. Given the membership of PAS, there is the potential of channelling political influence, directly or indirectly, through the selection of lay members by the Public Appointments Service. Although a chairperson elected in this way may or may not have the same experience of effective board management and corporate governance as one selected by PAS in accordance with section 15, as drafted by Government, the elected chairperson would have the assistance of a full-time director and staff of the commission, if there were gaps in this regard. We argued in the earlier days as to whether this was overkill, given the cost involved, but now that we are considering getting rid of the subcommittees, there will be more work for them. That gives it more merit.

The inclusion of the President of the Circuit Court as a permanent member of the commission reflects the recommendations and concerns of both the Association of Judges of Ireland, the Law Society and the majority of the committee at this stage. The Law Society submission in March 2017 on the proposed heads of the Bill emphasised that it is in the Circuit Court and District Court where most citizens meet the justice system, a point which Deputy Jim O'Callaghan raised at a previous meeting. These courts are where most of the vacancies are and to which appointments will be made. There must be range of judges with suitable skills and personalities to meet the needs of these courts and to deal with the volume of people competently and sensitively and that the input of the relevant presidents would thus be of major importance to the commission.

We will stick with our amendment at present but we will review it for Report Stage in order to accommodate the need to prevent the commission from getting too large.

Will I get a chance to speak on amendment No. 39?

Yes, it is in the next group. Amendments Nos. 39 and 40 will be discussed together.

That is perfect

Does the Minister wish to make a further comment at this stage?

No. Some of the comments I made in my recent submission are applicable to amendments in an earlier group to which we need to revert, that is, group 7.

It might apply to later amendments that will present. The next group will be amendments Nos. 49 to 68.

Yes, that means reverting to an earlier group.

If members are agreeable and if the Minister wishes to make a further comment at that point, even though the amendments were already discussed, we can allow it at amendment No. 49.

That is fine as long as we will be coming back to it.

We will reach it, or please God, we will reach it.

Amendment No. 31 is required to facilitate amendment No. 50. I want to respond to Deputy O'Callaghan who thinks it is a bit complicated. I think the amendment is quite simple and straightforward. It is based on the premise that it will not be possible to identify all the organisations that would have an interest in this. While it looks complicated legislatively, ultimately it is a simple process where a short list exists of organisations that would be relevant and would have an interest in it.

They would be in a position to make nominations in a much more direct way than in the traditional Public Appointments Service process. Three members of the commission could be selected in that way. It would be relatively straightforward and also facilitate a wide number of organisations without having to name them.

While I support the principle of amendment No. 30, I do not think I can support it at this stage until we see the composition of the commission. I would not like to see the Bill proceed through Committee Stage without making sure there would be a lay majority. I would rather see the issue of the Presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court resolved on Report Stage.

With specific reference to amendment No. 33 in the name of Deputy Clare Daly which proposes to reduce the number of lay members of the commission from six to four, I would be concerned about a reduction in the number of lay members.

Amendment No. 33 must be viewed in conjunction with amendment No. 34 under which one would have the addition of the nominees from Free Legal Advice Centres Limited and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. The total number would be the same, but the composition of lay members would be different.

For the Deputy's information, amendment No. 34 was ruled out of order.

I know that it has been ruled out of order, but the idea was to have six lay representatives. It was really peculiar to rule it out of order on the basis that it involved a potential charge on the Exchequer, whereas if I had used a different word, it would not have been. We all accept that the Bill will be reconfigured on Report Stage. The aim of the discussion it is to have a balance with some of the lay members being nominated by groups.

I acknowledge the differing views and amendments from the various party groupings, all of which refer to the non-legal or lay members of the commission. If we were to increase the lay membership, having regard to the fact that the committee has already deleted the reference to the involvement of committees, it is important that there be a mix of people chosen by the Public Appointments Service and nominated by specific nominating bodies. We need to give this issue further consideration following the removal of the committee structure. Between now and Report Stage we should consider how best we can accommodate a Public Appointments Service group, on the one hand, and, on the other, the importance of maintaining a reference to the power of nominating bodies to make appointments. There is not that much between us in what we want to achieve, yet in the context of the deliberations and debate in which there are differing amendments, it appears difficult to find common ground. With a little breathing space between now and Report Stage we might be in a position to do so. We have to do so against a background in which the committees have been removed.

The import of many of the amendments we are dealing with now is against the background of the Bill, including that committee as well as the commission process.

I agree with the Minister. Is that just one committee?

It was committees - a plethora in the view of some.

I wish to flag a small matter to members. It may be important to take Deputy Clare Daly's example on board. One proposition was consequential on another. If we do not have the wherewithal to progress here, members should give consideration to whether this is the appropriate time to press. It may be that the revisitation and preparation would be the better approach in advance of Report Stage rather than a piecemeal approach with something hanging there that just does not fit neatly. That is only an opinion. The Chair does not express them very often.

I am trying to be helpful.

We will move on in the absence of any other contribution.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.
Amendments Nos. 27 to 29, inclusive, not moved.

I move amendment No. 30:

In page 12, to delete line 6 and substitute the following:

“(g) the President of the Circuit Court, and”.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 4; Níl, 4.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Amendment declared .

Standing Order 97(1) negatives a question when there is an equality of votes.

Amendment declared lost.

If amendment No. 31 is agreed, amendments Nos. 32 and 33 cannot be moved.

I move amendment No. 31:

In page 12, to delete line 7 and substitute the following:

“(h) 3 lay persons appointed under section 15(3) (the General Lay Appointments), and

(i) 3 lay persons appointed under section 15(3) (the Diversity and Social Inclusion

Appointments).”.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 5.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 not moved.

Amendment No. 34 has been deemed out of order.

Amendment No. 34 not moved.
Amendment No. 35 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Is that agreed?

Not agreed. Okay. The question is "That section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill." Siad ina bhfabhair, abraidís "Tá".

Siad ina choinne, abraidís "Níl".

I think the question is lost.

The effect of this is that-----

I am sorry. I beg your pardon.

The Chairman is absolutely right. I just want to clarify this for the voters here. If the section, as amended, is defeated here, section 12, as amended, falls. Is that correct?

That would be my understanding.

Do we then put section 12, as unamended, to the committee?

I presume that is what we would have to do.

We have not reached that point.

In light of precedence, I believe we cannot allow it to hang in mid-air.

It would be the original section 12, unamended.

The question is whether it stands part of the Bill, unamended. The proposition I put was for section 12, as amended, to stand part of the Bill.

Some members responded with Tá while the Minister and other members responded with Níl.

We are saying "Votáil".

My ruling is that the question was lost so I was right.

The Chair was right.

I call "Votáil".

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 13

Amendments Nos. 36 and 37 are in the name of Deputy Sherlock. He is not present so they cannot be moved.

Amendments Nos. 36 and 37 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 13 stand part of the Bill."

This is part of the larger group we discussed the last day. We made the decision to remove the relevant committees. Section 13 sets out the membership of relevant committees and other provisions in relation to those committees so it seems logical to get rid of the section as well.

Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 5.

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.

Níl

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.
Question declared lost.
SECTION 14

I move amendment No. 38:

In page 13, line 37, to delete “determine.” and substitute the following:

“determine, and

(c) submit to the Director, a Declaration of Interests, within 1 month of appointment, and thereafter, in January of each year.”.

This is a very straightforward amendment. The section relates to terms and conditions of membership who are part of the commission, such as remuneration and other items. It is a small ask that people on the commission submit to the director a declaration of interests on an annual basis.

I am not convinced that such a declaration is required. The requirements of the Standards in Public Office Commission are the normal benchmark in respect of such positions or offices. I have provided for this in section 60 so I am not prepared to accept the amendment.

It will be difficult enough to get people to apply to the Public Appointments Service to sit on this commission and if we tell them they have to provide a declaration of interests each year it will narrow the field even more. I do not believe people on State boards or directors of semi-State companies have to put in declarations of interest. I understand the objective behind the amendment but I would be concerned that it would act as a deterrent to people putting themselves forward to serve on the commission.

I take on board the comments and may return to the issue on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I believe the Minister referred to amendment No. 39 in an earlier speaking note.

No, it was amendment No. 49.

Amendments Nos. 39 and 40 are grouped together.

I move amendment No. 39:

In page 14, to delete lines 4 to 10.

We are proposing to remove the provision where members appointed by the PAS or nominated by the Bar Council or Law Society do not have to go through that process again to be reappointed after three years but can simply be reappointed by the Minister. It is self-evident. Why have a three-year term if we are going to then ignore it? It smacks of something like Horse Racing Ireland.

We are on the same team on this one. The provision has the potential to diminish the independence of the commission and re-politicise it. The sitting members could be tempted to act or vote in a certain way to garner Government approval and ensure being reappointed. It is only fair that a proper process takes place.

I would like to give more consideration to this issue on Report Stage. I probably will not support it at this stage.

I listened to Deputy Wallace suggest there may be an inappropriate level of influence on the commission.

It is no slur on the Minister. I made the point in the context of human nature being what it is.

I do not agree with him and I feel the members of the commission to whom he makes reference could be the most expert people in terms of their knowledge and their input and contribution. As a result, I have a difficulty with the amendment. The provision applies to lay members, including the non-legal chairperson selected by the Public Appointments Service and the nominees of the professional bodies, namely, the Law Society and the Bar Council.

Under section 14(4), the Minister would, in certain circumstances, be permitted to appoint such a member for a further term without a fresh PAS selection process. The terms of subsection (4) are based for all intents and purposes on the corresponding provisions of Part IV of the Court and Court Officers Act 1995. These are the prevailing procedures for the legal profession nominees and lay persons. In these instances, their terms may be renewed for a further three years. I acknowledge that we are changing the basis upon which, for example, lay persons are appointed, moving as we are to the PAS process. Assuming that the relevant person is willing and able to continue serving, however, and it is considered appropriate to do so, it is nothing other than common sense to reappoint him or her.

I invite members to agree that this is a standard board membership provision. It is not mandatory, merely permissive. It also makes some administrative sense. I ask that the section be retained. Even in terms of the different lay member composition or different means by which members can be appointed that Deputies Wallace and Daly are seeking, having made the appointments, it makes sense to allow for a potential turnover from time to time and it may be deemed appropriate for persons to serve a second term. In this regard, I am minded to draw on Deputy O'Callaghan's remarks about how it could become a challenge to interest people in the process in the first instance. In any event, it is only for one further period, so there could be no suggestion that these positions are being territorialised or occupied for an unduly long period. It will be based on the member's interests or otherwise in the work of the commission.

The Minister pointed out that these people could be capable and worth their places on the commission. That is possible and there is a good chance that they would be nominated to it again by the PAS, which is a political animal anyway. Given that one of the driving motivations of the Bill is to try to depoliticise the process, we are trying to create a situation in which a Minister cannot simply reappoint someone. The person would have to go through a proper process. We are trying to diminish the number of paws politicians can have on the process. Our amendment is driven by that.

For the information of Deputy O'Callaghan, if amendment No. 39 were to pass, amendment No. 40 could not be moved. I do not know whether he would like to make any intervention at this point.

I was not going to press amendment No. 40 in light of the fact that it seems to have been overtaken by previous amendments, but I will contribute on this one. Someone who has been appointed for three years has been vetted by the PAS, which believes he or she is good enough. Unless something remarkable happens to that person during the three years served on the commission, it is probably unlikely that we could say that he or she has not been suitably approved by the PAS. Must that person have to go through the whole process again?

I am of two minds on this, but I am inclined not to support the amendment. I might think differently were the period longer, for example, a renewable five-year term, but even a total block of six years if reappointed would not be excessively long.

If the commission had six different lay members every three years, their influence within the process might be reduced, given that it would take people some time to get their feet under the table. I will consider the matter again on Report Stage, but I do not support the amendment at the moment.

This is about making space for the best people for the job. Board members might be doing a perfectly adequate job, but someone who is even better qualified might come along. Rather than an appointment being at the blessing of the Minister, it should be open to a competitive process. Existing board members could go through that process as well.

It is important that we consider the practical outturn of this amendment. It may well be the case that, after three years, we have people who have contributed substantially to the effective working of the commission. They would be regarded as good people and have expertise. They would have acquired three years of experience. It is not unreasonable that they might be asked to serve for a further term of three years.

Deputy O'Callaghan referred to situations in which there might be a level of unsuitability. It is important that such circumstances be considered, but I point to section 23(2), which provides the power to remove a member of the commission from office.

Consider the contribution of lay people across the public service. It is important that, if people are good, competent and doing well and if they wish and are able to serve, the option is there. This provision is no more than that. From that perspective, it is difficult to accept the amendment.

Why did the Government not make it a six-year term if that argument was solid? It is making the appointment a three-year term. Aside from the points that we have made about depoliticising this operation, many people, even very good ones, stay on boards for too long. Consider the teaching profession. Some of the most brilliant teachers have stayed in it for too long and do not do their jobs as well anymore. As to politicians, most of us spend too long in the Oireachtas as well.

The Deputy should speak for himself.

Deputy O'Callaghan is still a bit fresh.

And some of the others.

We will give the boys the benefit of the doubt. Generally speaking, freshening up boards is positive.

I thank the Deputy. As no further Deputies are offering, where stands amendment No. 39?

We will press it.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 2; Níl, 6.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Amendment declared lost.

How stands amendment No. 40?

I will not move amendment No. 40. I may revisit it on Report Stage.

Amendment No. 40 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 41 to 43, inclusive, 94 and 95 are related and will be discussed together. They are all in the name of Deputy Clare Daly.

I move amendment No. 41:

In page 14, line 11, to delete “section 16” and substitute “section 15”.

The whole group of amendments is around removing the power to nominate the legal members of the commission from the Bar Council and the Law Society. Of all the nominating bodies proposed either by the Government or by Deputy O'Callaghan in his Bill, I have the most concern about the Law Society and the Bar Council, partly because the fear would be that whoever is in, as it were, would get the nod for the position. I raise this in the context that we know senior members of the Law Society have had questions raised in the High Court regarding their probity and indeed the nominations to the Legal Services Regulatory Authority by the Bar Council have also often been questioned. In order to assist diversity and so on, I would like to remove that power from them and have them nominated in the same way as the other lay members, meaning they would go before the Public Appointments Service, PAS.

Does any other member wish to comment on the amendment before the Minister responds?

Deputy O'Callaghan would like to say something on the Bar Council.

There will be opportunity, I am sure, before the amendments are put.

Amendment No. 41 certainly shows consistency on the part of Deputy Daly in respect of membership of the commission, in particular, the manner of the appointment of the legal professional body nominees and the stipulation that the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, should nominate a member each to the commission.

This particular amendment operates on section 14(5) of the Bill. The purpose of that section is to ensure that nominees of the Bar Council and of the Law Society should cease to be members of the commission if they cease to be a practising barrister or solicitor.

The amendment would seem to have the effect of requiring the Public Appointments Services to recruit a practising barrister and a practising solicitor to be members of the commission, rather than allowing their own professional bodies to nominate them. The amendment changes the reference to the two members from the Law Society and Bar Council to the two practising lawyers to be selected by the Public Appointments Service. It seems to me, therefore, that whether the two practising lawyers are nominated by their respective representative bodies or recruited by the Public Appointments Service, they will cease to hold office if they cease to practise.

I think the main point here is the approach to the appointment of the two legal professional members.

In line with sufficient precedent - I mentioned the Court and Court Officers Act, 1995 - and for other reasons we have adverted to in the course of this debate, I am not inclined to accept the amendment, nor am I minded to change the basis of the appointment of the members.

It is important to recall that one can only become a judge in Ireland if one is a practising barrister or solicitor. There is very good reason for that. One has to have, I think, 12 years experience for the superior courts in order to be appointed as a judge. It is a job of expertise that requires legal knowledge and experience of the courts. Around the world now, there are jobs that everyone thinks they can do. This is a job which requires an expert level of knowledge in law. The purpose behind the section in respect of Deputy Daly's amendment is that one person on the commission is going to be nominated by the Law Society and one is going to be nominated by the Bar Council.

This provision exists in respect of the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board. In general, what happens is that the chairman of the Bar Council sits on the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board. It is democratic because there are about 2,000 barristers in the country. They all have a vote every year to elect a Bar Council of 20 people, which body then elects a chairperson. It is democratic in terms of being representative of the barristers' profession. It is similar in the Law Society. I am not sure how they do it but I think it is the president of the Law Society who sits on the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board and he or she has to be elected as well.

There is one area in which there may be a bit of unfairness in terms of who can be appointed. One can be a practising solicitor in-house and be appointed as a judge but, in order to be appointed as a practising barrister, one has to be a member of the Law Library. Maybe that is something the Minister should look at in the future in order to equate those sides, so that there could be an in-house solicitor and an in-house barrister.

If we had a situation in which the Public Appointments Service put ads in the paper for a barrister to sit on the Judicial Appointments Commission, my view is that most of the people who would apply might not be, I will put it politely, the best candidates.

I have some sympathy for the intention behind the amendment although I do not support it. Notwithstanding whatever issues may exist or may have existed with any of the organisations referred to, these are official representative bodies. They are organisations that have policies and have developed views around sentencing, the appointment of judges and court procedures. It is probably the most suitable avenue for the legal profession to be represented. In the round, it makes sense to have representatives from the Bar Council and the Law Society.

As the Minister said - I am not fully sure whether he was being smart - I am all in favour of practising barristers and solicitors being involved in this body. That is precisely why I moved amendments in respect of the appointments from some of the external bodies like FLAC and the ICCL such that, even though they may be representing the lay component, their representatives could still be practising barristers or solicitors.

I am all in favour of the enhanced representation of solicitors and barristers on the board, but who will choose them? Unlike FLAC and the ICCL, of which no questions have ever been asked about their probity, questions have been asked about the probity of the Law Society of Ireland in High Court proceedings and of the Bar Council of Ireland. These tend to be organisations which nominate the in-crowd. It is not the case that one necessarily is a practising member, a barrister or a solicitor, but the in-crowd or in-set tend to be favoured by these organisations. The aim is to keep professional representation, as well as the importance and input of the profession, but to remove the choice as to who the representatives of the governing bodies would be.

I do not accept that. In fact, it is very unfair on the representative professional bodies. Of course, it is open to anyone in society to ask questions and Deputy Clare Daly has referred to people asking questions about suitability and appropriateness. Asking questions is easy but answering them and drawing on conclusive evidence and ensuring due process is important. I do not think it is fair that a shadow is being cast on the professional bodies to which we are referring in the context of this legislation.

Obviously, it is a matter of fact that issues were established against various members of the Law Society of Ireland in court proceedings.

Questions may have been raised, but drawing conclusions from this is fundamentally unfair.

Does the Minister have other closing remarks to make before we make decisions on the amendments? Is he happy that he has covered all of them?

I have made the point that I am not minded to take on board the thinking of Deputy Clare Daly. We have been over this ground before and I will not accept the amendments.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 42:

In page 14, line 13, to delete “being nominated under subsection (1) of that section” and substitute “pursuant to paragraph (e) of section 12(1)”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 43:

In page 14, line 15, to delete “being nominated under subsection (2) of that section” and substitute “pursuant to paragraph (f) of section 12(1)”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 44:

In page 14, line 21, to delete “or the functions of any of its committees”.

This amendment is about the committees which we have removed. Amendments Nos. 44 to 48, inclusive, are essentially about the same matter and I will be pressing each of them.

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

I move amendment No. 45:

In page 14, lines 25 and 26, to delete ", for the purpose of a relevant committee performing the function referred to in section 11(2),".

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

I move amendment No. 46:

In page 14, line 27, to delete "relevant committee" and substitute "Commission".

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

I move amendment No. 47:

In page 14, line 30, to delete "relevant committee" and substitute "Commission".

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.

I move amendment No. 48:

In page 14, line 33, to delete "relevant committee" and substitute "Commission".

Amendment put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Amendment declared carried.
Question proposed: "That section 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 5; Níl, 3.

  • Daly, Clare.
  • Lawless, James.
  • O'Callaghan, Jim.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Wallace, Mick.

Níl

  • Brophy, Colm.
  • Fitzpatrick, Peter.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
Question declared carried.

There are now just eight minutes remaining and the Minister's request to leave for another engagement is noted. It is appropriate, therefore, with the agreement of members, to go into private session for two or three minutes to determine the date on which to resume our consideration of this Bill, rather than proceeding to the next amendment or grouping. We have a very busy schedule in the period ahead.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The select committee went into private session at 3.38 p.m. and adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 February 2018.
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