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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Thursday, 1 Dec 2011

Vote 22 - Courts Service (Supplementary)

This meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 19 - Justice and Equality, Vote 20 - Garda Síochána, and Vote 22 - Courts Service. I remind members that these are Supplementary Estimates rather than the totality of the Estimates. I ask everybody to switch off their mobile phones completely and not just put them on silent mode.

I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, and his officials for attending and assisting our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates, a briefing on which was circulated to members. I propose that the following arrangements will apply: the Minister will address the committee, after which each of the Opposition spokespersons will have the opportunity to respond followed by an open discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that we are only considering these Supplementary Estimates and that while members may discuss issues relevant to the individual subheads, they may not recommend increases or decreases in the Supplementary Estimates and there are no votes.

I thank the committee for making time available to me again this week, this time to consider my request for Supplementary Estimates for the Garda Síochána and Courts Service Votes and a technical Supplementary Estimate for the Justice and Equality Vote. While the Garda Síochána and Courts Service Votes require combined additional funding of €30.2 million, this has been offset by a saving of €2.8 million which is likely to arise in respect of the Property Registration Authority Vote before the end of the year. Therefore, in total, additional funding of €27.4 million, less than 1.2% of the original gross allocation, is required in 2011.

In the current economic and budgetary climate, I am conscious of the imposition that any requirement for additional funding puts on the resources of the State and therefore will explain in some detail the background to the requirement for Supplementary Estimates in respect of both the Garda Síochána and Courts Service Votes. The Supplementary Estimate in respect of the Justice and Equality Vote is more of a technical accounting exercise to reallocate budgets between certain subheads prior to the end of the financial year and does not require any additional funding.

There is a requirement for a Supplementary Estimate of €27.4 million on the Garda Síochána Vote which is largely accounted for by two factors: the security costs of the visits to the State last May of Queen Elizabeth II and President Obama and the need to make a settlement with the Revenue Commissioners following a recent determination on the taxability of certain allowances and payments made to members of An Garda Síochána.

The members of An Garda Síochána were charged with the responsibility of putting in place a security operation for the State visits last May. It almost goes without saying that the security of our visitors while in our country was of paramount importance both from the perspective of the personal safety of our distinguished guests and the image of the country should anything have gone wrong. I am assured from my discussions with the Garda Commissioner that the security operation was consistent with the security threat for two such high-profile visits. As members are aware, the visit of Queen Elizabeth to Ireland was without precedent and the visit of the President of the United States of America to any part of the world entails a very significant security operation. It was unique also in the history of this country that two such important visits occurred within such a short timeframe.

The security operation in both cases was an outstanding success. The visits were conducted in complete safety for the very many people involved and the reputation of Ireland as a safe and secure destination for visitors was enhanced significantly. The positive impacts of the visits, which were beamed around the world, most notably to the USA and Britain, and which are already yielding dividends in terms of tourist numbers and spend to the State, were enormous.

I have already acknowledged the vital role played by the members of both An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces in the visits - often at great personal disruption and inconvenience to those concerned. I take the opportunity of this debate to do so again and thank them.

Clearly, such security operations come at a financial cost and, in this case, the cost of the Garda operation was just under €36 million. This expenditure was broadly speaking broken down between payroll costs of €28.5 million - of which overtime accounts for almost €24 million; travel and subsistence of €3 million; specialist communications equipment and clothing of €1.5 million; and other non-payroll expenditure of almost €3 million, relating to everything from the purchase and hire of barricades to the provision of catering facilities.

The situation has been compounded in the current year with the finalisation of a taxation issue on a small number of Garda pay allowances paid in previous years. Following a recent determination by the Revenue Commissioners, it has transpired that all or part of the allowances in question should be subject to PAYE and PRSI and other relevant deductions. The funding is not available within the Garda Vote, either in the current year or future years, to pay the outstanding corporate liability of the Department of €12.4 million, which covers the three year period 2009 to 2011, without recourse to a Supplementary Estimate. The payment is a circular one and the funding in question will, of course, go back to the Exchequer immediately in the form of a payment to the Revenue Commissioners. The allowances in question, which for the most part relate to payments of a fixed nature such as boot, uniform, plain clothes and detective allowances, will be taxable at individual Garda member level from 1 January 2012.

Aside from the security costs of the State visits and the once-off settlement to the Revenue Commissioners, pressures emerged in the Garda Vote in 2011 in areas such as the compensation subhead, which is demand-led, and in particular in relation to the costs of maintaining and running the Garda fleet, utilities and the licensing costs associated with the national digital radio system, which has now been rolled out across the country.

The combined effect of all of these issues has resulted in excesses in a number of subheads such as A1, salaries, wages and allowances, of €52.339 million; travel and subsistence of €3.292 million; telecommunication services of €6.25 million; station services, including utility bills, of €7.174 million; transport fleet maintenance of €10.917 million; and compensation of €4.313 million. There is also an excess in subhead E, communications and other equipment, of €12.280 million, which is mainly accounted for by the cost of the road safety camera contract which has the objective of reducing roads deaths and improving driver behaviour. This cost has been offset in part by income from fixed charges issued as a result of this initiative, and this last accounts mainly for the surplus in appropriations-in-aid.

Notwithstanding the difficulties I have outlined, it has been possible, through a number of cost reduction and other budgetary management initiatives taken by the Commissioner, together with savings of €59 million in the superannuation subhead, to reduce the amount of the net Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Vote to €27.4 million in 2011. The superannuation savings have arisen for the most part from a reduction in the rate of pension payable to existing pensioners and fewer lump sum retirement payments falling due for payment in 2011 than had been projected. Clearly the extension of the grace period to the end of February 2012 has had an impact on the retirement levels in the current year which are estimated to be in the region of 500 by year end.

It is clear from what I have said that every effort has been made to minimise the amount of the Supplementary Estimate. It is important also to acknowledge the work carried out by An Garda Síochána, which fulfils a crucial role for society, often in very difficult circumstances. The Garda has, for example, been very successful in tackling serious organised crime, as a result of which a significant number of persons involved with major criminal gangs have been convicted before the courts. In this context the Garda has recently carried out an extensive search and arrest operation targeted at a gang based in Dublin. In the course of the operation the Garda seized ammunition, drugs and cash. It is fair to state that rarely does a week now pass when the Garda does not have some substantial success in operations targeting gangs, in particular those engaged in the drug trade, and I congratulate the Garda on the extraordinary work it has done in recent months and one the very substantial success across a broad range of operations dealing with the issues of fuel, drugs and the illegal importation of cigarettes. Some of the work it does in these areas is in conjunction with the Revenue Commissioners and some of the successes achieved have resulted from the very substantial co-ordination and interactivity between the Garda and the PSNI. The level of co-operation between them should be highlighted because it is proving to be extremely effective, North and South, in targeting gangs operating on the island of Ireland, putting them under pressure and bringing people engaged in serious criminality before the courts.

More generally, the most recent statistics from the Central Statistics Office for recorded crime for the third quarter of 2011 show decreases in 12 of the 14 crime groups for which figures are given compared with the same quarter in 2010. They show a reduction of almost half, 42.1%, in homicide offences in the quarter, which includes a reduction of almost a tenth, 9.1%, in the number of murders. Also very encouraging are the reductions in the categories of controlled drug offences, reduced by 15%, and weapons and explosives offences, reduced by 11.3%. Property related crime - broadly speaking, robbery, burglary and theft - is effectively static, with an increase of 0.2%, as is the most serious category of such crime, robbery, extortion and hijacking, which has decreased by 0.4%. The Garda is placing a particular emphasis on preventing and reducing burglary and providing a targeted response, having regard to locations, times, offenders and victims.

There have been significant decreases also in the numbers of cases of dangerous driving leading to death, decreased by 83.3%, driving or in charge of a vehicle while under the influence of drugs, decreased by 48.1 %, and driving or in charge of a vehicle while over the legal alcohol limit, decreased by 16.4%. It is also worth pointing out there has been a further reduction this year in the number of deaths on our roads resulting from traffic accidents. There has also been a welcome reduction of 15% in public order and related offences. While there are clearly no grounds for complacency, it is right that I compliment the Garda Commissioner, his senior management and all members of the force on their focused and strategic work in preventing and detecting crime.

In the case of the courts Vote, a Supplementary Estimate requirement of €2.8 million arises which is made up of the cost of the publication of certain High Court orders, which is €1.3 million, and a shortfall in appropriations-in-aid of €1.5 million. The additional cost of the publication of notices in relation to certain High Court orders and the Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Act 2010 arises due to the restructuring of financial institutions. This requirement actually arises from applications made by the Department of Finance to the High Court under the relevant legislation, which obliges the State to give investors throughout the EU who are likely to be impacted sufficient notice of any such restructuring. This additional cost is likely to be in the region of €1.3 million by year end and was not provided for in the original budget for 2011.

It is projected that there will be a shortfall in courts fees in 2011, which is mainly accounted for by the increase in the fee income target for 2011 as set by the previous Government, the demand-led nature of courts fees, and the downturn in the economy. This will give rise to a shortfall in appropriations-in-aid of €1.5 million.

The Supplementary Estimate is also being utilised to offset a number of overruns in subheads such as salaries, office premises and expenses with savings in other subheads such as the repayments in respect of the Criminal Courts of Justice complex. This saving is due to the phasing of payments over the three years from 2010 to 2012 and will not reoccur in 2012.

The technical Supplementary Estimate in the Department of Justice and Equality Vote is primarily required to offset excesses in a number of subheads by savings in other areas, including surplus appropriations-in-aid. One of the areas of overspend relates to the commissions and special inquiries subhead, and this is accounted for in part by expenditure on the recent constitutional amendment on judges' remuneration which is expected to cost in the region of €750,000. As was the case for previous referenda, my Department made a budget available to the Referendum Commission, on an agency basis, for the necessary public information campaign associated with the referendum, and the expenditure will ultimately be reflected in the Department's Vote. Costs associated with ongoing and previous inquiries and tribunals also account for the overspend in this subhead.

Despite significant reductions in relation to the fees payable under the criminal legal aid scheme, it is projected that there will be an overrun in the relevant subhead of almost €10 million by year end. This means that expenditure will be in the region of €57.5 million in 2011, which is slightly higher than last year's outturn of €56.5 million, and substantially below the sum designated in the Estimate produced for the Department at the end of 2010. These figures illustrate the demand-led nature of the scheme, expenditure on which has increased despite the reduction of 10% in the fees payable at District Court level since July and in the Circuit and Higher courts since October of this year.

I was acutely aware of the budgetary pressures in this area and, as a result, I established a task force in April whose main objective was to identify areas of change relating to the structures and systems of the courts that could contribute to cost reductions in criminal legal aid. I am pleased to say that the task force assessed a range of issues in accordance with its terms of reference, identifying the procedural-structural limitations within the courts system that potentially add to the costs of criminal legal aid, the incentives within the system that might add to costs and the potential opportunities to simplify the delivery of criminal legal aid. Work is already under way in respect of a number of the areas identified to assist with the budgetary requirement to reduce expenditure. Reductions must be achieved in 2012.

There are also pressures in terms of immigration and asylum relating to the cost of judicial reviews. These costs are difficult to contain, as they are a function of the number of review cases taken and the progress of such cases through the courts system. There is a projected overrun of almost €5.6 million in the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, subhead in the current year. These overruns have been offset by budgetary reductions in a range of areas throughout the Vote, including the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, the State pathology laboratory, the probation service and the Irish youth justice service.

It has been a challenging year on the budgetary front for the justice sector, primarily accounted for by the security costs of the State visits in May, which could not have been included in the original Estimate for the Vote because the visits had not been planned at the beginning of the year. The actual cost exceeded the original estimates for the visits, but this was largely due to the evolving security situation and arrangements that were only finalised in the immediate run-up to the visits.

In the circumstances, I am pleased that the net Supplementary Estimate for the group has been reduced to €27.4 million, including the one-off settlement to the Revenue Commissioners of €12.5 million in respect of the Garda Vote, which must be made this year. I recommend the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána and courts Votes and the technical Supplementary Estimate in respect of the Department of Justice and Equality Vote to the committee and I am happy to discuss any issue that members wish to raise.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending and for the level of detail provided in the Minister's remarks. He is probably aware that the Garda Commissioner attended the meeting of the joint committee this morning. Each of us took the chance to compliment the Commissioner on the work being done by the force. We also took the opportunity to sympathise with him on the death of Garda Ciaran Jones. The Commissioner attended to discuss community policing, of which there was never a better model than Garda Jones.

The Minister is seeking an extra €27.4 million. I endorse his comments about the way in which the visits were handled. Will the overall cost to the Garda of €36 million be fully met by this Estimate or will the Garda need to pay the balance from within existing resources? Will we address questions one by one or should I go through all of my questions?

Which does the Minister prefer?

I do not mind.

I will jump around and follow the line of the Minister's speech.

We could take questions one at a time. The response to each question could be as brief as possible and then we could move on to the next.

Yes. Overall expenditure was €36 million. I thank the Commissioner and those working with him. In the context of the overall review of expenditure, they have been determining what efficiencies can be found and implemented. They managed to achieve a number of these during the course of the year. As a consequence, €27.4 million is being sought despite the fact that the overall additional expense of the visits was €36 million. In simplistic terms, approximately €12 million of the €36 million is the tax overpay and €15 million is going back into the Garda Vote. The Garda fulfilled all of its functions during the course of the year and no additional moneys need to be found. This is all that is required.

The Garda has done an extraordinary job this year. Not only has it tackled a broad range of crimes and targeted criminal gangs, but we have also effected a situation in which crime figures have been reducing in a significant way for three straight quarters. This is a consequence of new approaches being taken, a particular target being met and successful prosecutions across a broad range of areas being initiated. If the Deputy is asking whether the Garda will be in debt at the end of the year, the answer is "No". There will be no overhang going into 2012. Due to the manner in which the Department has been managed and the manner in which the Garda has managed its own business affairs this year, what we are proposing today fully addresses any financial shortfall and brings the Garda spend up to speed for the end of the year.

We have parliamentary questions later today.

It might be a replay of this question session.

We will pursue the matter in greater detail. The Revenue Commissioners' determination was backdated three years. Although the Department accepted the overall decision, what efforts did it make to appeal the backdating? I agree that the cost should not have been passed on to individual members of the force, as they were unaware of a tax liability. Does this set a precedent for other Government agencies and Departments? Will Revenue be paid corporately on behalf of staff, members, etc.? Are we opening up all sorts of precedents for other Votes?

This was a difficulty I inherited when I became Minister. Revenue raised the issue prior to the change of government. As the official employer, the Department had a liability, Revenue sought a far higher sum, appropriate discussions were held and the issue was resolved on the basis of Revenue agreeing that the sum due would be settled by the payment of approximately €12 million.

Revenue has designated particular allowances as pay. In practical terms, they are also regarded by the Garda as pay. For a number of years, everyone in the Department understood that there was no PAYE or tax impact. As is required under law, the Department has addressed the issue so as to be properly compliant with the arrangements agreed with Revenue. From 1 January, members of the force who are in receipt of the identified allowances will be liable for tax on them.

Regarding the Garda fleet, I will direct the Minister to an interesting discussion with the Commissioner led by Deputy Creed this morning. In this day and age, cars are well able to travel more than 300,000 km. The Commissioner blamed the manufacturers. We could all pursue this issue.

Regarding the Garda fleet, I have a particular concern about the way in which the finances have been constructed. I do not mean to keep referring to the previous Government.

But the Minister loves it.

I am conscious of something as we head into next year. The 2011 Estimates adopted by the previous Government substantially underfunded the allocation necessary within the Garda Vote to maintain the fleet properly. This accounting exercise has been going on for some years. Traditionally, the fleet is underfunded and either the Garda must find within its Vote the additional moneys necessary to keep the fleet up to speed or the matter must be dealt with by way of Supplementary Estimates. We must move away from that system.

The issue of cars that have done more than 300,000 km is a major concern. In future, the funding available for the acquisition of new cars will be extraordinarily limited. There is a need to ensure the Garda has the vehicles it requires. As I understand it, there is an insurance issue with regard to cars that have done in excess of 300,000 km. Even if they have been well maintained and parts have been replaced, it is a major problem. We will have to examine the issue and I am very anxious to ensure members of the Garda in patrol cars have the use of vehicles that are safe and which can fulfil the needs of gardaí, with nobody placed at risk by driving those cars. We must be very careful about those issues when we get to the 300,000 km mark. I am told by members of the Garda that some cars have done 300,000 km but because they have been well maintained, they are in good nick. It is an issue I will consider but I am not sure if we can resolve it.

Will the Minister go through the High Court orders and the Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Act, with a figure of €1.3 million? Is this just publication of notices in newspapers?

It is advertising in newspapers across Europe and in other places, where necessary, to ensure that if an issue arises with a financial institution that could impact on individuals doing business with the financial institution, they would be given full notice. This is proving quite expensive but in the context of legal requirements and advice, it is necessary and required under the relevant legislation. As I mentioned, the expense was not factored into the figures originally prescribed for 2011. It is a small sum in the overall funding of the Department but I would prefer to use it for other purposes.

In this age of electronic publications we keep getting legislation that makes us publish in newspapers. Most people read newspapers and the like electronically. There was a small amount allocated towards the referendum on judges' remuneration. There were three other votes that day, including another referendum, the presidential election and a by-election. Was the money divvied between everybody who was part of the process?

The money I refer to is the obligation of the Department of Justice and Equality with regard to the Referendum Commission and the one referendum for which I, as Minister, had responsibility. That was the referendum on judges' pay. We had to provide our share of funding, which would facilitate the Referendum Commission in exercising its independent judgment, using funding as it saw fit to advertise the referendum and informing people as to what it related to.

The figure for criminal legal aid is substantial, and there is a significant overrun. With regard to the task force, is there any target in mind for next year on deliverable changes? I know it is very difficult to assess demand but is there a notional idea, based on this year's figures and those from last year, of what is going on?

I will give a figure from memory and I will be corrected if I am wrong. The target spend for criminal legal aid in the Estimates for 2011 was €47 million, and the spend last year, in 2010, was €56 million. It was never going to be achieved. As the Deputy can see, this year's spend is slightly ahead of the €56 million from the previous year. We have introduced a 10% reduction and that should effect some savings next year, when it will be applicable for a full year. It is very difficult to predict with certainty the exact level of saving because this is a demand-led scheme. One of the ironic side-effects of the success of the Garda in bringing people before the courts and successfully prosecuting them is two-pronged expenditure. The first prong is a substantially increased spend on criminal legal aid, with the second being that we have more convicted people in prisons and on temporary release than we would have had a number of years ago. Both of these impact on expenditure from the justice side.

There is a multifaceted range of activities which we hope will produce further savings while ensuring the rights of those entitled to legal aid are fully protected. There could be greater efficiencies in the manner in which the court systems operate and the interactivity between gardaí attending the courts and the system. For example, a garda may be involved in a series of prosecutions and if there are adjournments, they could be put to the same day rather than a string of days, which would create additional overtime. Committees have been established involving both the District and Circuit Courts, with the presidents of those courts engaged, and they cross the different sectors, considering how the courts might operate efficiently. This would ensure savings in the criminal legal aid spend and Garda overtime, as people would not be returned to court unnecessarily. There should not be a series of unnecessary adjournments in circumstances where, for example, it is clear a case may not be heard for two months. A defendant would not have to come back unnecessarily every two weeks for a formal adjournment of proceedings as the clock ticks up additional expenditure.

A broad range of measures are being considered which we hope will effect efficiencies in the spend next year. The Deputy might be interested to know that during the summer, when we announced the reductions in the criminal legal aid fees, there was a degree of upset on the part of those working within the legal profession. They do not fully understand the financial climate which exists - although they must do so - and the need to reduce expenditure in this area. The Government and the State will continue to respect fully the human rights of individuals and the entitlement to legal aid, but there is not an open-ended pot of money. There is a need to effect substantial efficiencies and I hope the legal profession will constructively contribute to that. This is in preference to some members of at least one profession threatening to strike, which has been mooted, unless the fees remain at current levels. I hope an air of reality will sweep across both professions. I also hope that instead of getting demands from professions that funding be maintained at current levels, which is impossible, we will get constructive proposals from the professions on saving money to ensure maintenance of the criminal legal aid system in the required manner. That is not only for constitutional rights but for rights under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Are the three Votes being taken together?

We will discuss them together and there will be a question and answer format.

The Estimate we were presented with in July was formulated by the previous Government.

With regard to the Garda Vote, subhead A1 has overrun of €52 million, which is down to the payroll costs, including overtime, for the State visits and tax liability to the Revenue Commissioners. The tax liability is €12.4 million and the salaries, including overtime, for the State visits came out at €28.4 million. The total is €40.8 million, so where is the balance in payroll costs?

Essentially, that is from members retiring. As set out in my contribution, there are various cross-transfers of funds within the Garda Vote, with particular expenses in one area compared with others. We return to the €27.4 million figure at the end of the day. There is cross-fertilisation within the Garda Vote to meet the different areas of expenditure. This is in so far as they are predicted to work out by the end of year as opposed to how they may have been predicted to occur in December 2010, when the 2011 Estimates were first proposed.

The other €11.5 million is for retiring members.

Okay. I refer to subhead A2, travel and subsistence. There is an overrun of €3.2 million which, again, is mainly down to the State visits. Perhaps I could get this information by way of a parliamentary question but is there a breakdown of how that was spent? Does it cover hotel accommodation and accommodation for gardaí coming to Dublin from elsewhere? Does it cover all of that?

It covers all of that. It covers refreshments and the range of things necessary when moving gardaí from one end of the country to another. They had to be cared for and looked after properly during the days of the visits. The Queen was here for four days and President Obama was here for one day. It was not a question of just shifting people the morning the Queen arrived. There was a substantial lead-in period to these visits which required substantial additional security measures and checks to ensure that locations for visits were properly checked out and inspected. This would have involved a substantial number of members of the force. A lot of the preparatory work went on in the days leading up to the visits. All of us who were in Dublin during that period would have seen various checks being done or preparations being put in place.

This is not a spend of €36 million between the four days of the Queen's visit and the couple of days leading up to President Obama's day here, which was a seven day period. This covers a lead-in period of substantial significance and the interactivity between the Garda and the Defence Forces where, in some instances, there were joint security engagements.

I refer to subhead A3, incidental expenses, and the overrun of €1.86 million. The Minister said it was mainly down to the increases in the demand-led expenditure on Road Traffic Acts, accident investigation and towing charges. Looking at the figures for the provisional outturn for last year and the Estimates the previous Government provided in July, there seem to be huge discrepancies in what was estimated and the eventual outcome. Who is responsible for that? I am not suggesting the Minister is but somebody is responsible.

In some cases, the Estimates are €10 million short of the outcome. The outcomes will be in excess of what they were in 2010. In this instance, the expenses in connection with Road Traffic Acts last year were €6.5 million but it is €1 million in the Estimate for 2011. However, we are now coming back with a Supplementary Estimate almost tripling what was envisaged in 2011. Somebody must be responsible for doing up these figures and Estimates. I wonder who it is.

There was a problem, frankly, in the way previous Governments operated for a number of years. I will be quite frank about that. Figures were prepared by way of Estimates, notional amounts were put in, there was a belief that there would always be a Supplementary Estimate, we were flathúlach with money as we went through the 2000s and some of these figures were more notional than real.

I will be corrected if I am wrong in this but my recollection is that it actually cost something in the region of €24 million to run the Garda fleet but the sum put in for it was €12 million. That was never going to be achieved if one was going to keep the fleet on the road. There is a whole range of figures in Estimates in years gone by that, frankly, did not reflect the true projected costs. I do not know why that occurred. I was not in government at the time. Clearly, there would have been interactivity between the Department of Finance, the Minister for Finance and line Ministers, whether the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Minister for Defence, and figures were agreed. Quite clearly, figures were agreed on a variety of subheads that bore no relationship to reality.

Figures were agreed in the context of the 2010 Estimate for 2011 and the EU-IMF agreement. This was something of which I was very conscious as Minister. There was a projection that at the end of 2011, we would have gone from 14,500 gardaí to 13,500 gardaí. That was in the document my predecessor published on behalf of the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government in November 2010. When one looks at the Estimates for 2011, it is projected that by the end of this year, we will have 13,500 gardaí. Some 1,000 gardaí were never going to retire in one year. Figures were put in and salaries were projected as if sometime during this year, we would lose up to 1,000 gardaí.

Our projections show that at the end of this year, we will have just under 14,090 gardaí. Perhaps by the end of December, it will be 14,000 but it was never going to be 13,500. Therefore, within the Garda Vote, there was not an adequate sum for Garda pay which had to be shifted around.

I hope the more realistic way in which we are doing our Estimates for 2012 will mean we will not have this problem next year. However, over the years, for whatever reason I do not understand, this was the way in which Estimates were prepared. We had the same issue in the defence area the other day. The Defence Vote, chronically, going back a number of years, always underestimated the pensions side.

Two bits of the Defence Vote were clear. One knew how many people had to receive pensions or how many bereaved widows or widowers of former members of the Defence Forces had to receive pensions. That figure at the end of any year was readily identifiable for the following year. There could be a very small variance but it was readily identifiable.

However, every year, the pensions Vote, Vote 37 in the Defence Estimate, was underestimated and was never accurately dealt with in Estimates produced in the December of the preceding year. It was always then supplemented from the payroll side which meant that perhaps the Minister of the day could pretend in the December that one was going to maintain larger numbers in the Defence Forces the following year and then would allow the numbers to fall back, so would discover money to put into the pensions Vote.

In the way we are doing our business, I hope that in the Departments of Defence and Justice and Equality we have put a stop to that and we will be able to identify the funding when we get funding, which quite clearly goes into different areas.

Within any Department, there will always be some area of unexpected expense and something will happen. Certainly in a Department the size of the Department of Justice and Equality, we may well need to go through this exercise next year but I hope it will only be about switching money from one Vote to another as opposed to requiring additional funding. However, this is the way business was done in years gone by and it may be one of the reasons the State got itself into some of the financial trouble it has found itself.

To be honest when I compared the Supplementary Estimate to what we were presented with in July, some of the figures were shocking. The Minister mentioned Garda transport. The Estimate last year was €27.9 million but the Estimate we were presented with in July was for €14.5 million and we now need an additional €10.9 million. I do not know how business was done previously but this is no way to conduct business.

As the Minister said, I hope that will change next year. One cannot prepare Estimates and budgets by picking figures out of the air and hoping one can come back with an Estimate because eventually we will reach a stage-----

I think we have covered that. There may be votes in the Chamber so-----

There will be a vote in the Chamber.

My job in July was to formally present to the committee the Estimates my predecessor had announced to the House. I share the Deputy's view. It is very important that when presenting our figures we do our best to project where moneys will go and that we give accurate figures. I have no doubt that something will occur following what we will announce next week. There may well be some events in 2012 we do not anticipate that will produce additional expenditure in some areas or less expenditure in other areas due to efficiencies. However, the degree to which this has occurred in the past is unacceptable.

I have some other questions. In subhead A8, on Garda station services, there is an overrun of €7 million, mainly due to utility charges. The Estimate provided €19.4 million in 2010 and this was revised down to €12.9 million, but now we are returning for a revised Estimate of €20.1 million. Is this overrun due solely to utility charges such as electricity, gas and heating?

It is the same issue again. This was another subhead that was traditionally underestimated, resulting in this problem. Of course there can be variances when costs for utilities unexpectedly increase during the year. However, I am advised that it would be incorrect for me to say the overrun is solely due to that. Simply, the projected sum in the original Estimates did not take account of the reality of the expenditure.

There is an interesting parliamentary question due today that provides an interesting insight, but I do not wish to pre-empt it. When we look at the expense of utilities, the need to come back within budget next year and the need to use resources efficiently, one of the issues with regard to Garda stations is the expense of maintaining stations that are unnecessary in circumstances where money could be better targeted at providing policing services. This scrutiny exercise is useful. With every Garda station, the level of expenditure on utilities may not seem large, but the numbers add up to a significant amount at the end of the year when they are all brought together and in circumstances where funding is restricted. This is the reason there is a need for us to bring in consolidation and reform in those areas.

The Minister mentioned maintenance of Garda stations. Again, subhead A6 shows another overrun of €2.4 million and there is a Revised Estimate of €10 million. How much of that is currently spent on stations that are not operational?

Nothing is spent on stations that are not operational.

What is spent in terms of the maintenance and upgrade of the stations?

I expect Cabinet will make a decision on this within the next few days and announcements will be made next week on the issue. I discovered there are some stations that have never been declared as non-operational but have just been closed. This is curious. They are closed because they had fallen into disrepair. There is at least one station that has been closed for 30 years but which has never been announced officially as being closed. That is something of a mystery, but no money is being spent on these stations. Where stations have been closed, the door has simply been locked. I do not know why some of my predecessors did not -----

Is money being spent on leases for these?

No, these stations are owned by the Office of Public Works. However, it is a mystery to me why the stations that have been closed for many years have never been announced as being closed and the properties disposed of.

I will be brief as I know we must head to a vote. My other question relates to subhead A4, postal orders, where there is a sum of €265,000 for postal orders. Why would the Garda Síochána need to use postal orders to the value of €265,000?

This figure relates to franking machines, which are prepaid.

So it is not actually for buying postal orders.

It is not for postal orders in the old-fashioned sense. In my law firm we had a franking machine and it had to be funded every so often so that we could stamp letters.

Are we finished with this area?

I have four or five more questions.

We can deal with them when we come back, if the Deputy wishes.

If the Deputy has questions, I would not wish to prevent him raising them, provided we get lunch at some stage before Question Time.

I will try to get through them quickly.

We will return after the vote.

Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 1.20 p.m.

We shall resume in public session. I believe Deputy Jonathan O'Brien wanted to raise a number of other questions.

Subhead E, shows an additional overrun of €12.28 million in relation to the GoSafe road safety contract. Was this offset by subhead K, which is the increase in the appropriations-in-aid?

Not entirely, but almost. There are two aspects to this. One is, of course, road safety and encouraging people to drive more safely, or discouraging speeding, but a reasonable income is derived from that engagement.

With regard to subhead A4, to whom is the licence fee paid?

TETRA is the service provider. This is the digital radio system that has been in place for some time. It is a costly system. Contracts have been signed which are producing expenditure at this level. As Minister, I would have wished we could negotiate this costing down. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has direct responsibility for the contract but my Department meets the expense of it. I have inquired as to the possibility of our effecting some savings in the contract but it has not proved possible to make any progress in that regard.

Does the Minister know how long the contract is for?

It is for a minimum period of five years. It commenced approximately two years ago and is a five year contract.

Under subhead A5 of the Garda Vote, I see a saving of €2.4 million in the area of office machinery. Could I have more detail on that?

That was brought about by reducing IT costs.

Vote 22 is for the Courts Service. There is an overrun of €1.66 million for the maintenance and upgrade of existing IT systems. I presume some of this relates to the upgrading of the courts IT system to make it compatible with the Fines Act 2010.

No, it does not relate to the Fines Act. It relates to other areas. The Fines Act issue was a problem. This upgrade provides for the paying of fines by instalments. The Deputy would have heard me say-----

The Minister mentioned a figure of €400,000.

-----some time ago that I hoped to introduce legislation to allow for fines, where appropriate, to be paid by attachment of earnings orders. It has been estimated that the software upgrade that would be required for that would cost about €1 million. There was not sufficient funding in this year's Estimates to meet that cost. I hope to be able to provide funding to the Courts Service in 2012 to facilitate that upgrade.

Will it cost an additional €1.6 million just to upgrade existing systems?

Yes. That is just to keep existing systems maintained this year.

Vote 19 is for the Department of Justice and Equality. I know the figure of €1,000 is merely nominal, but if we look at the figures in more detail we see significant overruns in some subheads which are offset by savings. I would like to touch on some of the savings.

Subhead F1 is for the probation service. There is an offset of €600,000 because of unfilled vacancies. In a reply to a recent parliamentary question of mine, the Minister announced the hiring of six additional probation officers. With the hiring of those six additional officers, what are the current numbers? If we are still making savings due to unfilled vacancies, I presume those six appointments do not even bring the service up to previous staffing levels.

I am advised that staffing levels in the probation service are at 85% capacity at present.

Are there plans to further increase staff levels?

There is a moratorium on public service recruitment. I am anxious that we continue to have the excellent probation service we have currently. The service has extra capacity and the arrangements of which I advised the Deputy in my reply to his parliamentary question have commenced. We have started a pilot scheme applying to prisoners who were sentenced to up to five years imprisonment and have not yet qualified for remission but are of good behaviour and pose no threat to the community. Prisoners in the scheme will be granted early release on the basis that they engage in community service. Approximately 30 prisoners have been released under this scheme. I had a meeting with members of the probation service about two and a half weeks ago. I spent a couple of hours with them talking about the future and plans for further work. I understand the service has the capacity to extend the pilot, which I hope we will do.

Next year, we will still have the moratorium on recruitment. That will remain the position for some time. However, I am pleased that we are, at least, able to replace some people.

In the same Vote there is a saving of €1.5 million on the service to offenders. I presume that simply reflects current staffing levels. If we do not have staff we cannot implement programmes.

Subhead G10 is for the National Disability Authority. We have savings of over €800,000 which, according to the Minister's brief, arise due to programme and administration savings, including payroll savings due to the number of unfilled vacancies. I presume we will not fill those vacancies. How will those savings impact on that sector?

As the Deputy will know, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, has primary responsibility for this area. She will be answering a question tabled by the Deputy on one particular body later in the day. To give the Deputy some more detailed information, and he will have some of these figures, the original allocation for the National Disability Authority was €4.336 million and we expect the outturn by the end of the year to be €3.510 million, which would represent savings of €826,000. A number of factors have contributed to savings in the pay area. The first is staff turnover. There were four staff losses in 2011, including two retirements and two resignations. Three staff are currently on unpaid maternity leave. To give the Deputy the full picture, as National Disability Authority retirements are paid from payroll, a provision was allocated for potential retirees in 2011, and the corresponding lump sum payment, which appears unlikely to be spent during 2011, worked out at €301,000. There have been various savings in the non-pay area. The reduction in staff resources resulted in reduced capacity to advance projects and therefore spend budgets. Effectively, that brought about savings. I am advised the authority has also made concerted efforts to effect efficiencies to ensure not only value for money but to reduce and eliminate spending where possible and thereby reduce the running costs.

Also, in line with the Croke Park agreement, the authority has sought partnerships with other agencies, where appropriate, to achieve efficiencies and this has impacted on spending in two ways. Spending has been reduced through the shared approach and delays in spending have occurred where the authority's involvement of spending follows on from a partner's input. There are delays in effect with regard to liability arising.

Deviation in project timeframes have arisen for various reasons, including no response to a call for tenders, the refinement of documents to ensure quality output and where partnership projects were affected by external factors. That type of thing has produced a result of about €200,000 which is contractually committed but will not be paid this year. It will arise in 2012 and we have to make provision for that effectively in 2012.

From those figures it is obvious that in areas where we had budgets to implement projects, the embargo on recruitment is now preventing us from doing that. We all talk about cuts in projects and expenditure, but it is clear from even a consideration of this subhead and the probation service that the difficulties have extended beyond funding projects in that staffing levels are also biting into the delivery of front-line services.

The reality is that we are in the financial circumstances we are in. I cannot magic up money. We cannot recruit except in very special circumstances. Clearly, where there are fewer staff it may take somewhat longer for projects to be evaluated or progressed. That will affect different bodies and it is regrettable, but we are in very difficult financial times.

As I said, it is my objective to ensure that Estimates are more accurate in years to come. We will do our best in 2012 to ensure that outturns reflect Estimates. Because of the enormous job that has to be done in that area, I make the point again, because I do not want to mislead members in any way, that I have no doubt we will have an Estimates meeting next year where there will still be internal specific adjustments that will be required because we are trying to correct a framework that for some years has not correctly estimated funding in different areas. In some of the areas, particularly where one is dealing with retirements and may not have anticipated retirements or people being unwell and there is a shortfall in staff as a consequence, it is inevitable there will be underspends that could not have been anticipated at the start of the year, just as on occasion there will be some overspends, particularly in demand-led schemes.

I have two to points to bring to the Minister's attention. One of the issues that has been high on our agenda is domestic sexual and gender-based violence and I note from the subhead for that area that there has been saving of €500,000. The Minister might focus on that issue for next year if he can. I know it is difficult but it is an issue that has been brought to our attention on many occasions here and it is an area that needs a good deal of attention.

On that issue it might be of assistance to the Chairman and Deputy O'Brien, the Opposition justice spokesperson, to advise them that I want to be clear on where we are heading. We are heading into a really difficult year next year because of the efficiencies that must be effected and the financial cutbacks. In the context of the myriad of organisations that receive funding through the Department of Justice and Equality, and this relates to the Chairman's point, we will try to focus on ensuring that where there are financial reductions within particular subheads, we focus on providing funding to those organisations that provide services. Where there is a reduction in funding, we try to give preference to organisations that provide services as opposed to organisations that are advocacy organisations because otherwise we would have the anomaly that we would cut the service to give money to an advocacy organisation which then would advocate that we should not have cut the service. I am anxious about that. When we are dealing with the area of domestic violence, there are a variety of services that are funded partially through my Department and also through the Department of Health and the HSE. We are trying to be as careful as we can within the difficult financial environment within which we have to live to facilitate them maintaining services. There will be no room for expanding services but at least the objective should be to try to ensure that important services that exist are maintained. That will come at the expense of advocacy groups because one cannot square this circle any other way.

The other point I wish to make arose at our meeting this morning with the Garda Commissioner. It relates to rural Garda stations and the relatively small amount of money it would cost to maintain them. In some instances some communities have expressed interest in being involved in maintaining them as a community resource and the gardaí could still use them. It was simply a suggestion but quite a novel one.

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