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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 12 Apr 2000

Vol. 1 No. 3

Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Bill, 1998 [Seanad]: Committee Stage.

We now commence consideration of Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Bill, 1998, which was passed by Seanad Éireann and has been referred to the Dáil by the Select Committee. I welcome the Minister and his officials. It is proposed to adjourn the meeting shortly before 3.30 p.m. as the Joint Committee must meet regarding a motion referring a proposal for a Council decision on a European refugee fund. Is that agreed? Agreed. For the information of members, it is proposed to group the following amendments for the purposes of debate: Nos. 1 and 5, Nos. 2 and 21, Nos. 3 and 4 and Nos. 11 to 19, inclusive. All other amendments which are not grouped will be discussed individually.

SECTION 1.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 5 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 17, to delete ", except where the context otherwise requires".

I have tabled these amendments because of advice I received to the effect that they would simplify the Bill without detracting from its meaning or purpose. These amendments involve removing the words "except where the context otherwise requires" from sections 1(1) and 1(2). I am advised that, in both instances, there is no alternative context and that the words are, therefore, unnecessary, if not misleading.

Why were they put into the Bill in the first place? Was a context envisaged which has not subsequently materialised?

The words are unnecessary. We try to keep legislation such as this as tight as we can in terms of words. My advice after the Bill was drafted was that this would be relatively sloppy and it was best to remove the words concerned. It will not detract from the legislation. It is ordinary, standard wording one finds in Bills, but it is not required here and is unnecessary. There is no point in having unnecessary words in the legislation.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 21 is consequential on amendment No. 2 and both may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 27, after "Act" to insert "and, with effect from such date as is prescribed by the Minister, means that Convention as amended pursuant to General Assembly resolution 47/111 of 16 December, 1992, the text of which, in the English language, is for convenience of reference set out in the Second Schedule to this Act”.

This is connected with amendment No. 21 which gives the detail of the proposed Schedule. The purpose is to update the convention by including the 1992 amendments. As I read it, the Schedule in the Bill is from the original 1984 convention. As can be seen from the Schedule in amendment No. 21, a detailed amendment to the original convention was made in 1992. It refers to the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. It also deals with various other aspects, especially backlogs, delays and efficiencies generally in the implementation of UN conventions. It also deals with questions of funding for the operation of human rights treaties bodies and a number of other matters. It links in to the convention with which we are dealing. I propose that it be included in the Bill to ensure the legislation is fully updated to include the 1992 amendments.

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for bringing to my attention the question of whether General Assembly Resolution 47/111 of 16 December 1992 should form part of the convention to be included in the Schedules of the Bill. The main effect of the resolution would be to provide funding for the committee established by Article 17 and directed by the UN instead of through contributions by state parties to the convention. The matter is complicated because, although the resolution predated our signature of the convention, it still has not come into effect and it may be some time before the amendment is accepted, if ever, by the number of states required before it can enter into force.

While it would be inappropriate to pre-judge any Government decision on the matter, it is my intention in bringing forward this legislation to ensure that Ireland can participate fully in the convention. The detail of the declarations to be made will have to be carefully considered but it is my intention to propose to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Government that we make the necessary declarations through Articles 21 and 22.

Is the Minister saying that once the required number of states ratify the 1992 amendments, the Government will include it in legislation?

No, I am saying my advice is that there is a difficulty with it which is being examined at present. I can express aspirations but I cannot be definitive. If it can be established, it is legally appropriate to include the resolution. In that case I will table an amendment on Report Stage. That is why I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment and allow me to give it consideration. I do not disagree with what the Deputy says and I have asked the officials to examine the matter and to contact the Attorney General to see if we can resolve it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 4 is related to amendment No. 3 and they will be discussed together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, subsection (1), line 10, after "but" to insert ", without prejudice to any international instrument to which the State is a party on the commencement of this Act or to any enactment which may or does contain provisions to the contrary,".

This relates to the definition of torture. The use of the term "lawful sanctions" is a cop out. This is contained in the convention but so is the requirement that the definition is without prejudice to any instrument or law of wider application. The amendment will insert this qualification into the Bill.

Amendment No. 4 seeks to do the same. We want absolute clarity. Article 1 of the conventions states:

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

That is the worry. We need to explore this further. Does this mean that someone can come here having carried out lawful sanctions such as amputations in Iraq or Saudi Arabia? We are trying to ascertain if something which is a lawful sanction in another country could be used as an escape clause by virtue of the wording in this section.

The amendment seeks to ensure that the defence of lawful sanction will not be available in relation to acts carried out which are contrary to established tenets of international or Irish law. The Deputies wish to ensure that the most brutal actions of a repressive regime will not be protected because they are lawful according to the legislation drawn up by that regime. This is a valid concern and is part of the complexity of issues and dilemmas considered by the drafters of the convention. They met those complexities by adopting an open approach in relation to lawful sanctions - they decided against the qualifications proposed by the Deputies.

Before I deal with the difficulties presented by the amendments, it would be helpful to explain the complexities faced by the drafters and why I followed their approach. I can do no better than refer to the handbook on the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment which states that the second element of Article 1 is probably the most controversial element of the whole article. It provides that torture does not include pain or suffering arising only from, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. It has often been said that this is a too far-reaching exception since it might be interpreted to allow a state to practise methods which would normally be regarded as torture by making them lawful sanctions under its own legal system.

It has been argued, however, that while the convention was intended to strengthen the existing prohibition on torture in international law, it was not intended to lead to a reform of the system of penal sanctions in different states and if that had been the intention the convention would have been unacceptable to a number of countries.

It is therefore true that the defence of lawful sanction is available and persons who committed acts which would be considered torture by international standards would no doubt attempt to invoke the defence of lawful sanction using the shield of dubious law. I have given this possibility some consideration and I have come to the conclusion, just as the drafters of the convention did, that the defence should not be qualified. I have taken that approach on the basis argued during the negotiations that the term lawful sanctions would be considered by the courts to determine whether what is presented as lawful is genuinely lawful. Effectively, this means that it is left to the court to decide, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, whether what is purported to be lawful is, in fact, lawful.

To succeed in claiming the defence of lawful sanction, it would not be enough to show that the sanction is technically lawful - it would also be necessary to show that it is in essence lawful. In such circumstances a court can reject a defence put forward by a brutal regime of dubious lawfulness.

This approach reflects the approach I have taken generally to incorporating the convention into our law. I have tried to ensure that, as far as is possible in criminal law, and having regard to the need for certainty, we have used the actual wording of the convention in the Bill. I have taken this approach to allow, as far as possible, an application of the convention here which is unfettered, save for any restrictions which our courts might apply in the interests of justice or in accordance with our Constitution and our obligations under international law.

This approach leaves it open to a court to decide what was lawful at the time the behaviour was committed. I cannot, nor would I wish to, dictate to a court the approach it should take in interpreting the law. I am, however, leaving open to the court the possibility of taking into account not just current international law but also developments in international law and international instruments adopted after this legislation comes into effect. For example, if at a point in the future an international instrument is adopted forbidding certain penal sanctions, the lawfulness of which might be accepted at present, the court will not be prevented by the wording of this section in bringing that development into account.

Despite the excellent intent of Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment, it only serves to muddy the waters in dealing with the section without the clarity necessary in criminal law. The legal effect of the reference to "without prejudice to any international instrument [or] enactment" would probably be no more than the creation of a statement of the obvious - that such instruments are not affected by the section. It is confusing to add to the reference and I would be concerned at the creation of such confusion.

The reference to "any international instrument" could cause problems in a definition of criminal behaviour because it must be remembered that what is included in international conventions arises in the context of a binding agreement and states "not in establishing criminal culpability".

I would also have difficulties with the reference to "domestic enactments" as it could raise doubts as to whether any sanction prohibited by our law would have to be deemed unlawful in accordance with the section if committed in another country. If this were the case, then we could be accused of engaging in the practice of exporting our laws, a practice which would be in breach of international law.

For example, it could mean that an executioner, in performing his functions in the United States of America, could be prosecuted under this section because the death penalty was finally abolished as a sanction here in the Criminal Justice Act, 1990. The majority of people here abhor the death penalty but that does not give us the right to decide that a person acting in accordance with the legitimate law of his or her land should be liable to criminal prosecution here.

Deputy Jim Higgins's amendment does not add clarity. It simply refers to section 1 which provides for the very defensive lawful sanction which he wishes to qualify. This is a complex matter and I understand the Deputies' concerns, which I share. However, these concerns are best met by the approach I am adopting. In these circumstances I hope the Deputies will understand why I cannot accept their amendments.

The convention or at least the resolution has been in existence since December 1984. Have other countries been able to find a way around adapting the legislation to domestic law or have any problems arisen in such countries with the wording of this section? I would not expect the Minister to have an answer off the top of his head but it might be a way of finding another way around what we are trying to achieve.

I wish there were a clear route to achieve what Deputies O'Sullivan and Higgins are seeking to achieve but, unfortunately, there is no such easy route. My understanding is that other countries use lawful sanctions, just as we are using here. There is no difference between Ireland and other countries. It is a difficult and complex part of the law and there is not a perfect solution. What I am doing is making the best of it.

I appreciate the Minister's point and that he wishes us to allow the courts to use their judicial wisdom and discretion in determining that if somebody who has come here from another jurisdiction has carried out an act that contravenes the definition of torture then they should be subject to due process. Notwithstanding the fact that other countries have decided to adopt the wording of the convention and that the situation we have envisaged was considered in the draft, which is a very real possibility, I cannot see how the Minister can say we are not trying to achieve clarity. We are trying to achieve clarity.

We set down a definition - a definition of torture as inflicting severe physical pain on a person. Lawful sanctions in Iraq and Saudi Arabia include, for example, somebody having a limb, wrist or finger amputated. Such sentences are imposed and carried out at the behest of courts. Surely it is clear that irrespective of whether it is a lawful act or sanction in such jurisdictions, it contravenes fully the definition of torture - inflicting severe physical pain. It might be a legal sanction in Iraq and Saudi Arabia but under the convention and the Bill's definition it is an illegal sanction and I do not see why we cannot be explicit, clear and definitive about it.

As Deputy Higgins pointed out, it is regrettable there are jurisdictions which use punishments which are clearly abhorrent to us. However, where such sanctions exist, they may well be genuinely lawful in accordance with the laws of the country concerned. In the execution of these sanctions the people concerned may carry out their functions in accordance with the genuine laws, for example, of their religion or their land. On the other hand, it is also true that these instruments can be used as instruments of state torture. The convention seeks to address the latter situation. Ultimately, it is a matter for the courts to decide what is lawful. The consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions is required for proceedings which go beyond arrest in accordance with section 5 of the Bill. This safeguard has been inserted precisely because of the complexity of cases which could arise under this Bill when enacted and to guard against unwarranted prosecutions.

Trying to qualify lawful sanctions is extremely serious and complex. To be blunt, while I understand the good intentions underlying the Opposition amendments, they are confusing and would not work. That is the reason I am taking this approach. I can consider the circumstances put forward by the Deputies between now and Report Stage but I cannot offer any solace in respect of the Deputies' intentions for the simple reason that at face value and even after in-depth consideration I cannot find a solution to the problem. If there were a solution it would be wonderful, but other countries are experiencing the same difficulties we are discussing here. They were also unable to find a panacea.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 4, subsection (2), lines 12 and 13, to delete ", except where the context otherwise requires,".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 1, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 4, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following subsection:

"(3) A person, other than a person referred to in subsection (1) or (2), who carries out an act of torture on another person, whether within or outside the State, shall be guilty of the offence of torture, but shall be liable to be prosecuted in the State if that person or the victim of the offence is an Irish national or if that person subsequently enters the State or if the offence was committed in or has any other substantial connection with the State.”.

This amendment deals with torture without the involvement of a state, whereas the Bill deals with torture by or involving a state. It deals purely with private torture, so to speak, and it was tabled in the context that the UN convention allows national laws to offer a wider definition. If one proposes something which is unilateral to Ireland then it should be curtailed. Therefore, I have inserted a requirement that there be a connection with the state on purely private torture. It is an attempt to broaden the area covered purely by state torture. I would welcome the Minister's comments.

I think everyone accepts the definition of torture in the Bill is sufficient to give effect to what is in the United Nations convention. Indeed, the definition mirrors as closely as possible the definition in the convention and the purpose of this Bill is to give effect to the UN convention. Although I accept the convention would not prevent the use in our legislation of a wider definition of torture than the one in the convention, I consider that any such wider application must relate to state torture, the subject matter of the convention. The key question is whether an extension of the definition is desirable.

Acts of torture are reprehensible by whoever and wherever they are committed. The convention deals with acts of torture by or at the instigation of public officials - in other words, acts of torture committed by persons acting on behalf of the state. Thus, the convention specifically recognises the peculiarly evil nature of state-sponsored or condoned torture. It recognises the need for an international system for the prosecution of those involved in such torture. There is not much use in treating it as an international offence if it can only be prosecuted in the state where it is committed and, of course, where prosecution may be impossible or at least unlikely.

Non-state torture is an altogether different matter. In the normal course, any form of physical torture already constitutes a serious offence under our criminal law. The Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997, updated our law in the area of non-fatal offences generally and includes a wide range of offences for which very heavy penalties are prescribed. There is no question that a person committing acts of torture here, in the ordinary sense of that word, would not be amenable to the criminal law of this country. Nor, indeed, would it mean that persons committing acts of torture outside the jurisdiction could find a safe refuge here as such offences are in all probability likely to be extraditable. The difference is that the international community has not identified the need for an international system of prosecution of such offences.

The most often quoted case of non-state torture which should be criminalised is the phenomenon of paramilitary punishment beatings or knee-cappings which occur in Northern Ireland, for example. In our jurisdiction, that behaviour is already covered by the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act, 1976. Accordingly, such behaviour in this Bill would, in so far as acts committed in Northern Ireland are concerned, be largely a duplication of law. We could exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction over crimes committed outside the State in accordance with established principles of international law. We have not been found slow in doing so to deal with behaviour which is so abhorrent that the responsibility of this State clearly extends beyond our national boundaries. Drug trafficking and child sex tourism are cases in point.

The behaviour provided for in this convention is the use of torture by states against powerless individuals. In the case of state torture the case is certainly compelling. However, the amendment the Deputy is proposing goes very far indeed and it could, despite some of the qualifications in the amendment establishing a link with this State, extend the jurisdiction of the State to criminal acts of torture committed anywhere in the world. Nor would it matter if the offence had not the slightest connection to state supported torture. Such an approach goes very far and I suggest it would raise doubts as to whether it could come within the Long Title of the Bill and whether, without explicit provision in the convention itself justifying this approach, it would not infringe principles of international law.

I am afraid that I can find no justification for such an approach and I do not see any need for it in the context of the legislation which is already on our Statute Book and to which I have already referred. I strongly believe that the approach which the Deputy is proposing would actually serve to dilute the importance and purposes of this Bill and that it could have unforeseen consequences for its application when enacted. The Bill should be seen as exceptional legislation to deal with exceptionally abhorrent behaviour. In those circumstances and because of the situation under Irish law, I would ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment.

Obviously, we were trying to push the boat out in terms of how much could be incorporated in this legislation. I take the Minister's point that there is specific intention with regard to the legislation and the UN Convention. In that case, I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 4, subsection (3), line 25, after "life." to insert "However, if the court is satisfied that the person was acting under duress or threats to his or her life the Court shall have discretion to impose a lesser sentence.".

We are discussing torture and a case where a public official, or somebody at the instigation of a public official, carries out an act of what is deemed to be torture. Section 2(3) states that "a person guilty of the offence of torture shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life". The sentence, therefore, is a mandatory life sentence and there is no discretion. I am trying to allow for the possibility that somebody had no option and was doing the bidding of someone who had a gun to their head. In that case, if that person had not carried out the particular act of torture, their own life could have been taken. In this amendment I am trying to build in some kind of discretion for the court by inserting the phrase: "However, if the court is satisfied that the person was acting under duress or threats to his or her life the Court shall have discretion to impose a lesser sentence.".

That may be a misinterpretation of the subsection (3) which states that "a person guilty of the offence of torture shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life". The life sentence is not mandatory and the court would have the power to impose a lesser sentence. Duress is a defence to a criminal charge, and always has been. There is nothing in the Bill which actually changes the applicable law governing defences and duress remains a defence. The fact that an individual commits an offence under this section does not mean that the individual will definitely get life imprisonment. The person who is guilty of the offence of torture will be liable certainly on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life, but it is not mandatory.

Naturally, I accept what the Minister is saying. Where is the discretion, however? The section seems to be quite explicit in stating that "a person guilty of the offence of torture shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life". Life imprisonment there seems to be a mandatory minimum sentence. It is quite clear and explicit. I do not see any lesser sanction built in.

There is no statutory imperative here. It says "shall be liable on conviction". In other words, it is possible that the person will get life but it is also possible that he or she may not get life. The situation is that an individual is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life, but it is by no means certain. If we were making it mandatory we would say "shall be sentenced to life imprisonment", but we are not saying that.

The key word is "liable".

It is really. I can understand the Deputy's concern but I can assure him that the intention and the result is that one will not be subjected to a mandatory life sentence. One will, however, be liable to imprisonment for a term up to life.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 4, lines 28 and 29, to delete paragraph (a).

On Second Stage I indicated to the House that my Department, in consultation with the Attorney General, was examining section 3 with a view to ascertaining whether some of the offences in section 3 are already covered by section 7 of the Criminal Law Act, 1997. Section 3, as it currently stands, provides that "a person who directs, instructs, aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission of an offence of torture shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on indictment to imprisonment for life".

I am advised by the Attorney General that section 3(a) should be removed from the Bill as it is already covered by section 7(1) of the Criminal Law Act, 1997. That provision states that “any person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission of an indictable offence shall be liable to be indicted, tried and punished as a principal offender”.

In relation to the words "directs and instructs", I always considered these words to be unnecessary because they were already covered by the aids and abets provision. However, I did not oppose their inclusion in section 3(a) on the basis that the surplus words created no major problems. However, if aids, abets, etc., are deleted as advised by the Attorney General, then it would make little sense to leave in two words which are already covered by the words being removed from the Bill. I am advised by the Attorney General that I should remove these words.

Given the gravity of the issues being addressed in the Bill, I am fully conscious of the need to ensure that activities other than those committed by the person who actually carries out the acts of torture are fully covered in our legislation. I need hardly point that often the most blameworthy person in these situations is not the one who performs the act of torture but rather the party who orders it or encourages it to be done. I would not therefore have contemplated moving this amendment were I not acting in the certainty and on the advice of the Attorney General that it does not in any way weaken the Bill. Quite simply, those persons who are covered by section 3(a) will be covered by section 7(1) of the Criminal Law Act, 1997. In moving this amendment I am acting on the strong advice of the Attorney General that the removal of the surplus wording is necessary if we are to provide for consistency in our criminal law and avoid ambiguity in interpretation which might arise from unnecessary and surplus provisions.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 3, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 4, before section 4, to insert the following new section:

"Jurisdiction of Courts in relation to offences prior to Act

4.-Where a person has before the commencement of this Act carried out an act of torture, whether within or outside the State which was at the time of such commission an offence against international law by reason of the fact that either-

(a) the act was carried out at any time and constituted or was carried out in the course of a crime against humanity, an act of genocide or a contravention of the laws and customs of war, or

(b) the act was carried out on or after the 10th day of December, 1984, and constituted a contravention of the Convention against Torture or Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, done at New York on the 10th day of December, 1984,

and which was at the time of such commission an infringement of the law then in force of the State or of Saorstát Éireann by reason of being an unjust attack on the rights of any person, whether within or without the State being rights recognised at such time by the Constitution or the Constitution of Saorstát Éireann, such person shall be liable to prosecution for that offence in the State and on conviction on indictment thereof shall be liable to imprisonment for life.".

The amendment arises from General Pinochet's argument that he should not be extradited from the UK because the crimes of which he was accused were committed prior to the introduction of the UK Torture Act. I am concerned that something similar does not happen here such that a crime committed before the enactment of this Bill will not be excluded. The amendment refers to offences committed under international law. One cannot refer to this provision as retrospective in the normal sense because these are crimes under international law. I want to avoid the situation which arose in Britain where General Pinochet pleaded that because the legislation was not enacted when the crimes were committed he argued that he should not be extradited. This is an important issue and I do not like to think something similar could happen here whereby somebody could claim that because the crime was committed before this legislation was enacted, it should, therefore, not apply in his case.

The amendment seeks to make retrospective in our law, the offence of torture but, as the Deputy will be aware, Article 15.5 of the Constitution contains a prohibition against the enactment of retrospective legislation which declares acts to be an infringement of the law which were not so at the time of their commission. For this reason I was unable to accept a similar amendment proposed in the Seanad. I acknowledge that a fair amount of ingenuity has been used in drafting the amendment to try to get around the constitutional prohibition. In recognition of such a worthy effort I have checked with the Attorney General but his advice is that the problem remains and, indeed, there is not a constitutional way to achieve what the amendment attempts.

Ireland takes a dual approach to international law. Despite the adoption of the UN convention by the General Assembly of the United Nations in December 1984 an offence is not created in Ireland until provided for by criminal law. Thus, unless the acts constituted an infringement of the law at the time of their commission, to seek to give retrospective effect to the present legislation would be contrary to Article 15.5 of the Constitution.

I have great sympathy with the Deputy's amendment. The pity is that this legislation was not brought forward sooner. I recognised at an early stage the importance of the torture convention and upon taking office I did not lose any time in arranging for the Bill's publication. It is regrettable that the problem with retrospection could mean in certain circumstances that a person guilty of torture offences prior to the coming into operation of the Bill could escape prosecution here or extradition from here. However, the provisions in our Constitution are there for very good reasons and all of us must respect that. The onus on us is to ensure that we enact this legislation as soon as possible so that Ireland can play its part fully in the international effort against those who abuse their power to inflict torture on helpless people and see to it that we do all in our power to ensure that Ireland cannot be used as a safe haven by people who commit such acts in the future.

I know the Deputy will be disappointed with my response but I sincerely hope she will accept that it is not possible for me to pursue the matter any further and in the circumstances I hope she will withdraw the amendment.

I wish to tease this important issue out further. The Minister obviously would like to take some action. I appreciate that the Constitution curtails action in this regard and I understand that he has made every effort in conjunction with the Attorney General to come up with wording in accordance with the Constitution. We have also drafted this amendment carefully with the aid of legal advice and we feel it is in accordance with the Constitution. I ask the Minister to examine it again. Different wording to achieve the same end would obviously be acceptable to us. In the context of this legislation we should try to incorporate this provision if we can. If it arises again in regard to anybody who has committed serious crimes in the past, I would not like to think we would not be able to deal with them, nor would the Minister. I am aware he has already examined the amendment but it is an important issue, which should be addressed, if possible, in the legislation.

Has Article 5.5 ever been tested in the courts? There is no doubt that it presents a considerable prohibition in dealing with certain issues. A good example is the Sex Offenders Bill, 2000, through which it is proposed to establish a sex offenders register. Again the sanction of registration cannot be applied retrospectively. The 348 sex offenders currently in prison will not be covered under that legislation because a sentence cannot be revisited in the courts once it has been passed. Deputy O'Sullivan is correct and if there is even a glimmer of a possibility that it could be constitutional it should be provided for in the legislation and then tested in the courts.

Deputy O'Sullivan's point is important. I refer to the General Pinochet case. Is it envisaged that there might be a united European front with regard to non-Europeans guilty of torture offences seeking a haven within Europe because national legislation does not cover it? This was raised during the Pinochet case and Great Britain found itself bearing the brunt of requests from other member states which also wished to take legal action against the general. It raised questions as to whether there was a pan-European case to be answered because of the difficulties experienced by the UK.

I have taken the Attorney General's advice on this matter. The amendment is cleverly drafted, but, unfortunately, there is no way around this problem because there is a prohibition in the Constitution on retrospective application of the law where criminal law is concerned. I do not know whether there could be any case law in this regard because one is prohibited from retrospectively applying the law in the first instance and that which one cannot do may not have been tested.

I am not aware of any proposals referred to by Deputy Barnes. The Attorney General's advice is quite strict and solid. I assume he has examined all the precedents and case law before coming up with this advice and in those circumstances I am sure it will be understood that I must accept his advice and, therefore, cannot accept the amendment.

I wish to press the amendment because I would like the Minister to keep this proposal under consideration as the Bill passes through the House. We have included the phrase "was at the time of such commission an offence against international law". When the act was committed it had to be an offence under international law. There is a provision which at least indicates a glimmer of hope, as Deputy Higgins said, that it might well be constitutional. I realise the difficulties that the Minister has but all of us would like to press the Attorney General one more time to ascertain whether there is any possibility that this provision can be included.

Deputy O'Sullivan is welcome to resubmit the amendment on Report Stage but I am not confident it will be accepted.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 4, subsection (1), line 38, to delete "the Minister is of the opinion that".

I have moved similar amendments to other legislation. This amendment proposes to remove the subjectivity of the Minister's opinion and to seek a more objective decision on this issue. Obviously I am not questioning the Minister's opinion. This is a general amendment which has been proposed with regard to other legislation.

Deputy O'Sullivan is about the only person in the country who has not questioned my opinion.

In another context, not the present one.

I am a little puzzled by the amendment. The purpose of section 4 is to augment the prohibition of non-refoulement so a person cannot be expelled from this State to another state where he or she might be tortured. The section takes the same approach as section 5 of the Refugee Act, 1996, which is fairly famous, which provides for the prohibition of non-refoulement and provides that a person should not be sent back to a state where, in the opinion of the Minister, the life and freedom of the person would be threatened. Similarly, here in section 4 I am providing that a person cannot be sent to a state where, in the opinion of the Minister, the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture. There is of course, in principle, no difference in the non-refoulement provision in this Bill and that of the Refugee Act. It would make no sense to take a different approach in this Bill.

The Minister is the person ultimately responsible for the removal or expulsion of persons from the State and is the person on whom the responsibility for forming the opinion as to whether the person can be safely returned to another state must rest. If I were to accept this amendment, who would exercise this responsibility and form the necessary opinion? It is a very serious responsibility and we cannot leave the Bill, just as we could not leave the Refugee Act, silent on this point. In the future, for example, the Minister in making deportations would not have to take responsibility for ensuring he or she was not sending a person to a state where the person might be tortured. That is the converse of what is proposed by Deputy O'Sullivan. It is not possible for me to accept this amendment and I ask the Deputy to withdraw it.

I am proposing that the legislation define if a person was likely to be tortured if they were sent back, rather than leave it to the Minister's opinion. However, I accept his point that the intention is to keep the Bill in line with the provisions of the Refugee Act.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6.

Amendments No. 11 to 19, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 5, paragraph (a), line 16, to delete "1990)" and substitute "1990),".

These are technical amendments advised by the parliamentary draftsman.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 5, paragraph (b), line 22, to delete "192" and substitute "192,".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 6, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 5, paragraph (a), line 32, to delete "3(1)" and substitute "3(1),".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 5, paragraph (b), line 36, to delete "11" and substitute "11,".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 5, paragraph (c), line 42, to delete "33(3)" and substitute "33(3),".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 6, paragraph (d), line 1, to delete "44(2)" and substitute "44(2),".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 6, paragraph (e), line 4, to delete "50(2)" and substitute "50(2),".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 7, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 8.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 6, paragraph (a), line 8, to delete "13(1)" and substitute "13(1),".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 6, paragraph (b), line 12, to delete "29(1)" and substitute "29(1),".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 8, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 9 and 10 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 6, before section 11, to insert the following new section:

11."On ratifying the Convention the State shall make a declaration under Articles 21 and 22 thereof.".

This amendment requires Ireland to recognise the right of other states, under Article 21, and individuals, under Article 22, to complain to the UN committee under the convention.

Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment provides in the body of the Bill an obligation to make declarations under Articles 21 and 22. Article 17 of the convention provides for the establishment of a committee to consider the implementation of the convention by state parties. Article 21 provides that a state party may declare that it accepts the competence of a committee to receive and consider complaints from one state party that another state party is not fulfilling its obligations under the convention. Article 22 provides that a state can accept the competence of a committee to receive and consider complaints from individuals who claim to be victims of a violation of the convention by a state party.

The procedure in relation to declarations is that they are made at the time of ratification of the convention. Approval for ratification and for the making of the necessary declaration must first be obtained from the Government by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and a motion for the approval of the terms of the agreement must be passed by Dáil Éireann where there may be a charge on public funds arising from the agreement. While it would be inappropriate for me to prejudge any Government decision in this matter, my intention in bringing forward this legislation has always been to ensure that Ireland can fully participate in this convention. The exact detail of the declarations to be made will have to be carefully considered. My intention is to propose to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Government that we make the necessary declarations under Articles 21 and 22.

The proposed amendment is not appropriate and does not take account of the normal ratification procedure which is a matter for the Government. Therefore, I cannot accept it. Nevertheless, it has served a purpose in that it has enabled me to give the committee my position on the matter. I hope, therefore, the Deputy will accept my good faith on the issue and withdraw the amendment.

I welcome the Minister's statement of his intention to fulfil the objective of this amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 11 agreed to.
Sections 12 and 13 agreed to.
Amendment No. 21 not moved.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
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