SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 13 Nov 2002

Vol. 1 No. 1

Patten Recommendations and Inter-Governmental Agreement: Motion.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on Police Co-operation which was signed on 29 April 2002 in Belfast on behalf of the Government of Ireland by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, a copy of which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 8 October 2002.

I reciprocate the good wishes of the Chairman and congratulate him on his appointment as Chairman of the committee. I assure the committee that as long as I am in this office I will co-operate with it in every way I can to ensure we discharge our respective functions in as amicable and effective way as possible.

The Chairman has set out the purpose of the discussion before the committee. This is an important international agreement that will involve a charge on public funds and therefore its terms must, under Article 29°5.2 of the Constitution, be approved by Dáil Éireann before it can become binding on the State. The agreement is so significant that even if there was no such requirement, its contents would still merit the attention of the committee.

The agreement has two goals, both of which are mutually reinforcing: to progress further the implementation of the Patten reforms and to enhance co-operation between An Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

The historical background to the agreement is set out briefly in its pre-amble and it may be helpful to the committee if I expand on that aspect. The Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland which was set up pursuant to the Good Friday Agreement signed in Belfast in 1998, produced its report, known as the Patten report, in September 1999. The Patten report contained 175 recommendations and nine of those related specifically to co-operation with the Garda Síochána, with a further recommendation that community balance at more senior ranks of the police service should be addressed by lateral entry from other police forces, another relevant consideration.

Members will recall that the Patten report led to much debate in Northern Ireland and there were discussions between the two Governments in Weston Park which I attended in my capacity as Attorney General in July 2001. They led to the publication of an updated implementation plan for the Patten Report in August 2001. The agreement before the committee provides the legal framework for the implementation of the Patten recommendations, in so far as they involve the Garda Síochána, in particular providing for enhancement of police co-operation.

A number of developments have been made at EU level aimed at improving police co-operation and a conscious decision has been made that we would avail of those developments wherever possible to facilitate cross-Border police co-operation on this island. The European Council framework decision of 13 June 2002 provided for the setting up of joint investigation teams for a specific purpose and limited period by mutual agreement of the competent authority of two or more member states to carry out criminal investigations with an international dimension in one or more of the member states establishing the team. The drafting of legislation to give effect to the framework decision is progressing, with a view to publication early in 2003.

The agreement is a firm indication of the real progress made in relation to North-South co-operation on policing matters. It lays the foundations for what I hope will be a new area of policing on this island and it is an important milestone in the implementation of Patten. It represents a step forward into a new age, and it is the first agreement of its kind for us. It provides for the creation of more formalised links between our two police services, which will bring benefits to both jurisdictions in the form of improved effectiveness in crime prevention and detection. A comprehensive co-operation between the police services North and South has long existed. This agreement builds on that and gives a legal basis and framework for more enhanced and structured co-operation between the two police services in future.

Perhaps the most innovative elements of this agreement are those that allow personnel from one police service to move to and work in the other police service, and I would like to focus on that aspect. Since 1925 there has been only one police service in this State and there has never been any special provision for a member of another police service to join the Garda Síochána. We have experience of Garda participating in peacekeeping missions abroad with the United Nations, but they have always remained part of the Garda organisation and subject to the direction and control of the Garda Commissioner.

Occasionally, members of the Garda Síochána have gone to work with international organisations such as the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia pursuing war crimes in the Balkans. In those cases the members resigned with an option to reapply to the Garda Síochána when they had completed their work. The movement of personnel between the Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, PSNI, envisaged in the agreement is, however, unprecedented.

The idea of transfers between police services is not a new concept for the police in Northern Ireland. There are 40 police services in the United Kingdom with broadly similar terms and conditions of service and well established arrangements for transfers and secondments. However, even for them the concept of exchanges with a police service outside the United Kingdom is new. The implementation of the personnel exchanges required detailed negotiations on a number of issues. A five-sided group was established at an early stage to oversee the process.

Senior figures from the Garda Síochána, the PSNI, the Police Board for Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Office and my Department have been meeting on a regular basis to progress the various issues involved, and they have identified that new legislation will be required in both jurisdictions to facilitate progress. I regard the introduction of the necessary legislation as a priority and I hope to see it published and enacted early in 2003.

We should not forget that the success or failure of the proposed personnel exchanges will depend on the individual members of the respective police services. These personnel exchanges will be on a voluntary basis, so it is important the associations representing the police are positively engaged in the process. My officials have had an informal briefing with four Garda representative associations at an early stage to advise them in a general way of what was envisaged, and we are now in a position to go further and have a much more detailed consultative process involving the associations on both sides of the Border.

The agreement provides for three levels of personnel exchange - a programme of placements to transfer experience and expertise, including the area of training, which is in Article 5 of the agreement; a programme for members of each police service to be seconded with full police powers to the other police service for periods not exceeding three years, which is in Article 2 of the agreement; and members of each police service will be eligible for certain posts in the other police service, which is provided for in Article 1 of the agreement.

The programme of placements provided for in Article 5 does not have any legislative implications and officers participating in the programme will not be exercising any formal police powers in the other jurisdiction. It is intended that a formal protocol on these type of placements will be signed by the Garda Commissioner and the Chief Constable soon. Informal measures have already been initiated in this area and experts in police training have already been exchanged.

Article 2 of the agreement provides for secondment of officers for periods of up to three years. These seconded officers will be regarded for the duration of the secondment as full members of the host service so that, for example, a member of the Garda Síochána seconded to the PSNI would wear a PSNI uniform, have a PSNI rank and have a full role and full powers within the PSNI. Legislation is being introduced to facilitate such secondments. These types of secondments provide a mechanism whereby Garda members who do not wish to leave the Garda Síochána can make their experiences and expertise available to the PSNI for an extended period. It also allows for PSNI officers to be seconded to the Garda Síochána, and hopefully we will see a two-way flow enhancing police standards in both organisations.

The aim of Article 1 of the agreement is to enable members of each police force to apply for certain posts in the other police force. These are permanent moves so that a person will leave one service to join the other, and we will encourage members of the Garda Síochána to apply for posts in the PSNI, but it is a decision for the individuals in question. I hope the programme of placements and secondments will facilitate an improved understanding and appreciation between the two police services and so overcome any reluctance to apply for a permanent post in the other organisation.

In addition to the personnel exchanges, the agreement provides for a specific number of other areas of co-operation, including the holding of an annual joint police conference, arrangements for joint investigations, enhanced liaison arrangements, improved planning to deal with disasters and communication links. Closer communications and co-operation between our police services can only improve the effectiveness of cross-Border policing and the fight against terrorism, drugs, smuggling and other organised crime. It will directly assist in crime prevention and detection.

I warmly welcome the initiatives which have already taken place among the two police services to progress a number of the areas of co-operation identified by the agreement. The first annual conference between the two police services has been already held in Templemore in March and work is under way in joint emergency planning. The legislation to provide a legal framework for joint investigation teams is at an advanced stage of drafting and it follows on from a European framework decision that obviously will be of particular relevance to joint investigations with our Northern Ireland neighbours.

I acknowledge the commitment of the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Byrne, and the current and previous chief constables of the PSNI to the process and the involvement of both of their services in finalising this agreement and in the steps being taken to implement it. The new relationship between the two police services on the island will provide extended opportunities for police officers in both services, as well as enhancing the safety of all the people of Ireland. I would therefore ask the select committee to commend this motion to Dáil Éireann.

Chairman

I will lay out a plan to which, hopefully, the committee will agree. I would like first to call for opening comments from a representative of Fine Gael, followed by questions, then a representative of the Labour Party, followed by questions, then a representative of Fianna Fáil, followed by questions and then other members of the committee. The Minister could at that point respond to the various comments and questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Deputy Ferris to the committee.

Mr. McGinley

I support the welcoming words to the Minister on his first appearance before the committee. We are all newly appointed to the committee and we look forward to a good working relationship in the months and possibly years ahead. That remains to be seen.

This agreement is part and parcel of the reform of policing in Northern Ireland. We are all aware of the recommendations of the Patten report. Mr. Patten has an international reputation and during his tour of Northern Ireland when his report was being written, as a member of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, I had the privilege of meeting him. We were all struck by his commitment and dedication and by how seriously he took his tasks. On publication of the report, there was general welcome for its proposals.

One of the essentials of any democratic society is to have an acceptable police force with the trust and the confidence of the citizens. In this part of the country we have had, since 1922, a police force that succeeded in gaining that trust and confidence. A number of questions have been raised recently and an investigation is ongoing in County Donegal, but generally the Garda Síochána has won the people's trust and confidence. Unfortunately, the same did not happen in Northern Ireland. Since its establishment the RUC has been seen as an arm of the government rather than being there to maintain law and order on behalf of the state. It was seen by the Nationalist population as upholding Unionist rule, and that was unfortunate.

Another essential difference between the two police forces was that the Garda Síochána was unarmed while the RUC was armed. When the Garda Síochána goes to Northern Ireland, as envisaged under this agreement, will its members carry arms, as the PSNI does? When members of the PSNI come here they will, I take it, be unarmed. I know the gardaí will wear the uniform of the PSNI and members of the PSNI will wear the Garda uniform, but the question of arms is a basic difference between the two forces.

Since the Patten report, the RUC has been transformed into the PSNI and major steps are being taken to reform the police in Northern Ireland. Many changes have already occurred, foremost among which is the change of name. The name RUC is obsolete; the new name is the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which was recommended. I believe it had the approval of the Nationalist community and it is probably also accepted by the Unionists at this stage. The question of emblems has also been more or less settled. All communities are being given the opportunity to particulate in the Northern Ireland Policing Board. This has been taken up by the Unionist side and by the SDLP. It is a pity that so far Sinn Féin has not seen fit to take its place there. That is necessary if the PSNI is to be accepted in every area and by all in the Nationalist community. This would be seen as a major step forward and I hope that in the coming weeks and months when negotiations recommence, this will be examined.

I do not think we can look upon this as an all-Ireland police force. The Northern Ireland police force will maintain its independence and so will the Garda. A number of years ago, on the eve of a general election, scare tactics were being employed and people were saying that the RUC would be patrolling the streets of Tralee or Killarney. This is not envisaged under this agreement. It will merely improve co-operation and communication between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. It is happening at a European level and will soon need to happen at a universal level if we are to fight international terrorism. It is very important that we have such co-operation on a small island such as this. To have that, of course, the PSNI must be acceptable to the whole population and to every element in the North. That is one of the big jobs to be done.

I impress on the Government and particularly on the Minister that powers of persuasion must be used. The Minister himself has a long tradition in his family, going back to the foundation of the State. His grandfather hailed from the glens of Antrim. Who better to be up there with our team than a man with the Minister's pedigree? We are aware of that and of the great contribution made by his grandfather, not only during the foundation of the State but beforehand, and, on a personal note, to the foundation of something with which I was involved for many years, Conradh na Gaeilge. He has all the credentials and credibility with both sides. I hope that in the near future the PSNI will be acceptable right across the divide, because this co-operation will not be fully effective unless we achieve that.

Mr. Costello

I welcome the Minister. He mentioned that there had been co-operation between the RUC and the Garda Síochána and that there was a joint annual conference in Templemore. He made no reference to the football match in Parnell Park. I do not know whether the Taoiseach was allowed to attend it - it was a very secret affair and I do not even know the result.

Chairman

Did the Deputy attend it?

Mr. Costello

I was not invited.

Chairman

Who won?

Mr. Costello

There were no independent witnesses to verify the outcome.

Chairman

Was there a referee?

Mr. Costello

Yes, but I understand he was sworn to secrecy.

Mr. McDowell

Deputy Costello thinks it was in Parnell Park, but for secrecy's sake it took place in Westmanstown in County Dublin.

Mr. Costello

Did it?

Mr. McDowell

I was there.

Mr. Costello

The Minister should know.

Chairman

That was an appropriate field in which to play it.

Mr. Costello

That was a diversion in case anyone was thinking of going to it.

There has been co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda. We are proposing, as stated in the document, to take a further step involving secondment, placements and training and the facility for members of each force to apply for permanent posts in the other, conduct joint investigations and so on. It is a significant step forward from mere co-operation in matters of policing. I will not say "merging", but there is to be increased participation by both forces in each other's activities. The point made by Deputy McGinley is the crux of the issue - this should be welcomed if both services are acceptable to the populations in both parts of the country. That was not acceptable in the past. A significant proportion of the population in Northern Ireland still view even the revamped Police Service of Northern Ireland with considerable suspicion and will not participate in the processes and in the Northern Ireland Police Authority which oversees that body.

The Patten report is an excellent document and a blueprint for policing on both sides of this island. Will the Minister indicate in his response whether it is his intention to introduce elements of the Patten report which might have to do, for example, with a police authority, democratic elements in terms of local authorities, areas of transparency, an ombudsman, a complaints body, etc., about which there are serious questions that we have to resolve? If anything, the Police Service of Northern Ireland has made advances in terms of the manner in which it operates, subject to the remit of the elected people who have a major role in supervising its operation, which is not the case in the Republic.

I wish to raise one or two other areas without going into a long discussion on them. An outstanding matter which we discussed in the Dáil some days ago is the investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the greatest single atrocity of the past 30 years, on which there has not been any co-operation between the two jurisdictions North and South. That matter needs to be resolved but it appears the Barron commission is not making any progress. Will the Minister refer to that again because the question of acceptability on both sides is the key issue?

On the question of allegiance to the Republic or the Crown, what is the expectation for any statement of allegiance by somebody taking up a post in either jurisdiction?

The question of the carrying of arms has already been raised. This is a matter on which the two jurisdictions differ entirely.

On the question of pensions, if an officer is seconded in either jurisdiction, what will happen to his or her pension and service? What is the form of remuneration and how will that aspect be dealt with?

I welcome the proposal both in a European and a cross-Border context but a great deal of co-operation will be necessary. There are common levels of crime between the two jurisdictions such as drug trafficking and other activities and we should co-operate with each other in that regard whenever possible.

Mr. P. Power

I take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment and welcome him to the meeting today. I look forward to working with him over the term of this Dáil.

I propose that we commend this agreement to the Dáil for its approval and subsequent entering into by the Government because it represents a key aspect of the implementation of the Patten proposals, which themselves are a key part of the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. At a time when the Good Friday Agreement and the institutions under it are coming under sustained attack from some quarters and are being undermined by others, it is welcome that one aspect of the Agreement, through the Patten report, is now being implemented. I congratulate the Minister on the speed with which he brought forward this agreement and on its subsequent implementation.

It would be richly ironic if the co-operation which might arise from this international agreement would form the genesis of an all-Ireland police force because, if I am correct, the former Taoiseach, Garret FitzGerald, was one of the first people to propose that and, if my memory serves me well, the Minister was a former close aid and constituency colleague of the then Taoiseach at the time. It would be ironic if the Minister ends up implementing what might turn out in due course to be something much bigger than what we are dealing with now. That would be my firm wish because crime, terrorism, drugs smuggling and all of the issues which are creating problems internationally and nationally know no borders and it makes common sense that we deal with them in an all-Ireland context, as we ought to do in regard to many other issues.

I have not read the precise details of the report but I am aware that the Minister, in his former capacity as Attorney General, negotiated the finer details of it and I have no doubt that everything is in order in that regard.

Will the Minister indicate in his reply the time frame we can expect in terms of the passing of the legislation through the Dáil and the subsequent implementation of the protocol, on which I would like a little more clarification? I commend the report to the Dáil.

Mr. F. McGrath

I welcome the debate on policing, particularly regarding the Patten report, because it is an issue that we need to discuss in great detail North and South of the Border. I do not agree with members who appeared to express confidence in the police services North and South. I do not know if they are living in the real world because many people have a major problem in terms of trust and the response to crime, particularly those living in disadvantaged communities in the South. People in the North are not confident that they are being protected and we, as politicians, must face up to that reality.

I support the Patten proposals which are radical and will lead towards good quality policing, accountability and honesty. That is an important factor but we must face up to the reality that many people feel excluded.

I am concerned also that some police forces are a little too political for their own good - that is still the case in the North. Last week we had the case of the unfortunate civil servant who was arrested and charged in the full glare of the media. People were gloating on the television but the following day that man, who was from the Nationalist community, was released because he was totally innocent. That is not acceptable and it is not an example of good practice.

We need radical reform of policing North and South. I am not being critical just of the Northern situation. Many of the Patten reforms could be implemented here and I would be supportive of them.

I have a political concern about the impartiality of the PSNI because, over the past three months, I have been getting information, telephone calls and letters from people in the Short Strand who do not feel safe at night. That is a major problem.

I disagree with Deputy McGinley's comments about the Minister. I would not have the same confidence in the Minister in terms of his track record on human rights issues and civil liberties. I will list them again on another date. I also have a major political concern in relation to the North, namely, that the British Secretary of State and the PSNI Chief Constable have greater power than the policing board, including the ability to determine policing plans. I have a major problem with this and with the Special Branch in the North and its track record. I have seen and read about the case of Pat Finucane. These cases exist and if we do not face up to them, we are not being effective legislators.

I welcome the debate on policing. There is a lot of good in the Patten report. My long-term political agenda is to have an all-Ireland policing system which respects all traditions and cultures. That is the way forward. I agree with Deputy Costello about the Dublin bombings. That is another example of lack of trust. It is even breaking down today.

Mr. Ferris

I wish to be associated with the congratulations to the Minister. Nobody requires a policing service more than the Nationalist and republican communities in the Six Counties. They have had to live with the nightmare of the partisan RUC and the abuses associated with it. I do not believe the PSNI as it is currently constituted is a new beginning to policing. The importance of a policing service that can be trusted and have credibility in Nationalist and republican areas is fundamental to the evolving peace process and to embracing the Good Friday Agreement.

Deputy McGrath mentioned the record of the PSNI to date, particularly with regard to the Short Strand and north Belfast. I have been in the Short Strand on several occasions in the past five months. If one seeks a barometer for the acceptance of the PSNI, that is where one should go. For those who have reservations or doubts about it, there is a video available showing some of the terrible abuses perpetrated on the people of the Short Strand area and in north Belfast.

I support the content of the motion before the committee, aside from the fact that we do not have a new beginning. The absorption of the Special Branch into the PSNI has no provision for retroactive accountability for the years of collusion and brutality. I will always remember Deputy Quinn telling the Forum on Peace and Reconciliation that the RUC was irreformable. It is now absorbed into a new policing service and the members do not even have to take an oath on human rights. Today we are being asked to make a decision without knowing whether the Patten report will be implemented in full. If it is, it will be a new beginning. Unless it is implemented in full, however, the policing service is going nowhere. It is unacceptable not just to me and republicans but also to the Nationalist people who have lived the nightmare of abuse from a policing service that existed to suppress them.

A policing board that does not have the status to hold a chief constable and his officers accountable is also a mistake. If we pass this motion and forward it to the Dáil, we are doing so in the absence of legislation being proposed by the British. Effectively, we are agreeing to whatever legislation it intends to introduce. It is ridiculous in the extreme to do that until we see the legislation and whether it implements the Patten report. I do not believe the British are sincere in their intent to implement the Patten report in full. The Patten report offers us hope. It is the hope I and, more importantly, the people in the areas that do not have a policing service, want to see. By doing this we are doing them a disservice.

Chairman

Did Deputy McGinley wish to ask some questions?

Mr. McGinley

Perhaps the Minister will reply and I will have the opportunity afterwards.

Mr. McDowell

With regard to the points raised by Deputy Costello, the Police Service of Northern Ireland is operated on the basis of special legislative arrangements which involve the independent Policing Board in Northern Ireland. It is not the case that we intend to mirror those arrangements in the Republic. I will explain why. It is not that something which is good enough for Northern Ireland is not good enough for us or vice versa. The purpose of the special arrangements for the governance of the police service in Northern Ireland is to secure cross community support in a seriously divided community and to maximise public support for the police service.

There is a second view in relation to police services, that democratic accountability is an important principle. Let us imagine circumstances where I appoint 12 men and women as an independent board to run the Garda Síochána in the South. The reality is that if that board existed between me and the police force, I have significant doubts as to whether it would be more accountable or less accountable to Dáil Éireann and to democratic control. What is particularly requisite in Northern Ireland is the establishment of cross community support. Deputy Ferris might be interested to know that the notion of an independent police authority is a fundamentally British one. If one looks across Europe, it is rare to have an independent police authority. The great majority of European states operate on the basis we have, which is that a Minister is responsible to Dáil Éireann for the police force. There is a direct chain of accountability even to the point of moving a motion of no confidence in the Dáil and removing the Minister. That is an important issue and one of which we should not lose sight.

On a more positive note, while there is work to be done on the interaction of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and local communities and there are further proposals in the legislative pipeline, I intend to examine the possibility in this jurisdiction of formalising the relationship between An Garda Síochána and local communities through the local authorities. The leader of the Deputy's party has emphasised this to me in conversation and has also talked about it in public. It is vital that An Garda Síochána should have formal links with local democratically elected representatives and should interact with them and not simply have its interface with democracy at the top of the pyramid, as it were, through the Minister and the Dáil. There is huge scope for putting in place some mechanism of interface between An Garda Síochána and local representatives. I will examine that in the context of the forthcoming legislation on reforming An Garda Síochána.

The Dublin and Monaghan bombings is an important issue. As Attorney General, I was closely involved in the establishment of the Barron inquiry and in assisting Mr. Justice Barron in his endeavours. I doubt that it would be helpful if I were to comment further on the present state of co-operation or non-co-operation between that inquiry and the security services in Northern Ireland. However, I have noted what a number of Deputies said about it.

The Gaelic football match played between the Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland was a remarkable occasion and I was proud to be there. The match was played with considerable vigour and, although the media were not present, on some occasions the vigour was such that one wondered whether or not the match was improving North-South relations. It was, however, a tightly contested game. The Garda Síochána team took its foot off the accelerator in the second half and secured only a narrow win at the end with a good deal of effort. It was a truly historic day with two police forces on this island competing for a cup that was named after an RIC officer who was a founding member of the GAA in the 1890s. I welcome the initiative of both police forces in organising that occasion, which symbolised an awful lot.

Mr. Costello

The next match might be in Croke Park.

Mr. McDowell

It might be. I regret, however, that because of the attitude of some people towards the Police Service of Northern Ireland, it was necessary to have heightened security for the game. I hope that will not be the case in future.

Deputy Costello raised the question of the ombudsman and that legislation predates the Patten report. In the reforming Bill, which I hope to publish in the next session, I intend to make provision for an inspectorate with all the powers of an ombudsman. I also intend to make provision for a wholly different way of carrying out the governance of the Garda Síochána. For instance, it is intended that the Garda Commissioner will be accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts for the financial management and the value-for-money elements of his stewardship of the Garda Síochána. That will be a significant step forward. At the moment the issue of financial management is the mechanism whereby the Minister exerts democratic control over the Garda Síochána. In lieu of financial controls we will have to substitute a series of policy directives, which I will make with the consent of the Government, subject of course to Oireachtas scrutiny, to ensure that the Garda Síochána not merely carries out a policy enunciated by the Legislature through its Ministers, but also that it conforms to performance criteria in a measurable way.

Deputy Power asked when the Bill will be introduced. Our plan is to publish the legislation either before or immediately after Easter. The protocols will be consequent on the implementation of this agreement. They will not in themselves be the subject of statutory enactment, but of course they will be available for public scrutiny in so far as they are not secret in any respect. We hope to have signed the first protocol by March 2003.

Moving to the wider points raised by Deputies McGrath and Ferris, it is the case that in the Government's view, Patten has not been fully implemented. That is why at Weston Park agreement was reached between both Governments for a further legislative input into the implementation of the police service in full conformity with Patten. That will take place. It must be remembered, however - and this applies to Sinn Féin and others - that we are not in a position to wave magic wands. We are moving from A to B but it cannot be done at the click of a finger. Deputy Ferris talked about a new beginning but we must remember that the Patten report did not seek the disbandment of the RUC - it said it was to be incorporated in a new police service. Therefore, those who seek the disbandment of the RUC as a precondition for further progress in Northern Ireland are ignoring one of the fundamental tenets of Patten, which was that the policing issue was a transformation process, not a disbandment of the RUC and its replacement by something completely different.

Sinn Féin was reluctant to endorse the Patten report when it was originally published, though now it is demanding its implementation to the letter. If it is to be implemented to the letter, however, in all honesty to ourselves we must remember that it was not a recipe for disbandment of the RUC and its replacement with something entirely new. It was a transformation process. The wording of Patten was that the RUC would be incorporated in a new Police Service of Northern Ireland. That is just as much a part of Patten as any other provision either enacted or to be enacted, and we cannot cod ourselves on that.

It is important to respond to the points of a general kind that were made. Communities in Northern Ireland on both sides of the divide, and most particularly those communities at the more deprived end of the economic spectrum, need policing more than anything else. They need law and order to be available to them. There is nothing as brutal, savage, wrong or evil as the baseball bat, studded or not, being used by those who wield power in those communities on any basis whatsoever. Therefore, as part of the transformation process in Northern Ireland, which the Good Friday Agreement envisages, it is necessary that everybody in both communities signs up to the proposition that the police service will operate fully in their areas, and that it alone will uphold law and order. There are no two ways about it, and we must be frank. We are dealing with de facto power structures in which people other than the PSNI exercise considerable power within their own communities - the power to cripple or expel and, in some cases, the power of life and death. The people who wield those powers are, fairly naturally, reluctant to give them up unless they are forced to do so. The Good Friday Agreement envisages that they will cease to engage in a reign of terror or paramilitary-inspired, so-called law and order in their communities. The only way the Police Service of Northern Ireland can be brought into those communities is with some level of consent in those communities in the long run.

Mr. F. McGrath

And respect.

Mr. McDowell

And respect. Therefore, those who believe in the Good Friday Agreement must be willing to go the extra mile to get the police service into their communities. It is not simply something that can be put at the end of the peace process. If we are in the business of dismantling sectarianism and building up trust, it is a gradual process and one in which one cannot simply say, "I will not yield until the last full stop is to my satisfaction." People have to engage in give and take. Compromise is not a dirty word.

The agreement signifies the decision of the democratically elected Government of this State to fully endorse the Police Service of Northern Ireland as the legitimate force in that area. We could not second people to that force if we had any fundamental reservations about it. Of course, there are political judgments about the Police Service of Northern Ireland on which it is possible to hold one or two views. However, we could not enter an agreement of this kind if we did not fundamentally support the proposition that it is, by virtue of the Good Friday Agreement, emerging as the sole legitimate police service for Northern Ireland.

Deputies are entitled to hold their views about issues, such as the Special Branch in Northern Ireland. However, the Government is implementing the mandate the people gave by referendums on either side of the Border. We are determined to put into effect fully those parts of the Agreement with which we have been charged. The Patten report makes clear that police men and women from North and South of the Border should be able to apply to serve in each police force, either on a secondment basis or permanently. It is what the Agreement is about.

Deputy Ferris may hold his views about the political process in Northern Ireland, the timing of events and what is required to fully implement the Patten report. He should, however, bear in mind that the Patten report involved a transformation of the RUC into the Police Service of Northern Ireland. It was not done by clicking a finger, where one force disappeared to be replaced by another. That is not what the report envisaged.

We are now concerned with a matter of some urgency. It is not something with which we can play political poker because lives are at stake. That is why it is important to establish a police service which effectively serves both communities in Northern Ireland and upholds the rule of law there. From that point of view, the timeframe referred to by Deputy Power has the added urgency that lives are at stake.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We have had a good discussion and everybody has had the opportunity to express their views. We will have an opportunity to discuss all aspects of the Patten report and issues relating to the PSNI and the Garda Síochána as the legislation is debated.

Mr. McDowell

I wish to clarify that I expect the legislation to be published and enacted before Easter. In that respect I will seek the co-operation of the committee. While proper scrutiny will be required, the urgency of the situation means the legislation will require a speedy passage through both Houses.

Chairman

The Minister can be assured we will co-operate fully.

Mr. McGinley

Do I understand that secondment is to be confined to officers above the rank of inspector? Why would it not be open to ordinary members of the Garda Síochána and the PSNI to avail of this to enhance their experience in both jurisdictions?

Mr. Costello

I asked the Minister to elaborate on the question of salaries and pensions, given the different salary scales that operate in both police forces. Members of the Garda Síochána take an oath of allegiance to this State. What happens if they are seconded to the PSNI?

Mr. Ferris

Given that it is the Government's stated intention to have the Patten report implemented in full, is the Minister satisfied that the proposed legislation to be introduced by the British Government will address this?

Mr. McDowell

Secondment will be available to members of the Garda Síochána and the PSNI from the level of sergeant upwards. Lateral entry is envisaged for more senior positions from the rank of inspector upwards in both forces. We must examine the question of oaths and allegiance. It may be necessary to provide a special statutory arrangement in respect of the oath, attestation, or whatever, of persons on secondment to the Garda Síochána. Deputy Costello will appreciate that the oath taken by members of the PSNI is not one of allegiance to the United Kingdom, as such, but to policing values and the law. If it becomes necessary for a member of the Garda Síochána to take such an oath it should not pose a difficulty.

Mr. Costello

What is the position of a PSNI officer who is seconded to our force?

Mr. McDowell

We may have difficulties in relation to the situation with the Garda Síochána. On the question of arms etc., a person serving in either force will serve in accordance with the usual arrangements for that force, so that if it was usual for sergeants in the Garda Síochána seconded to the PSNI to carry a weapon in the same circumstances as a PSNI sergeant they will do so and vice versa in this jurisdiction. If an unarmed function was being undertaken in the South, those involved would not carry firearms. The law on the use of firearms would apply in those circumstances on either side of the Border.

In response to the question raised by Deputy Ferris, I hope the legislation on policing in Northern Ireland, which I understand will be referred to in the Queen's speech at Westminster today, will fully implement the Patten proposals. On the question of pensions, the pension position of member of either force will be effectively preserved when they are on secondment. If members of the Garda Síochána who have served the force for a number of years apply for service in Northern Ireland their accrued pension rights would not be diminished on that account. I do not know if more portability is required or will be necessary.

Mr. McGinley

Will those who live along the Border be subject to Irish or Northern Irish income tax regimes?

Mr. McDowell

Deputy McGinley would get a job on the representative associations of both forces. Members of the PSNI who serve in Ireland will be paid by the Irish State and will be subject to Irish tax law, but it is a separate matter if they are entitled to rebates by virtue of their residence under UK law or bilateral tax agreements.

Question put and agreed to.

Chairman

This has been the first real meeting of the committee and it bodes well for the future. There has been excellent co-operation with the Chair and I hope the meeting has progressed to the satisfaction of all. I thank the Minister and his officials. I am sure we will see more of you in the near future.

The next meeting will consider a motion concerning section 4 of the Defence (Amendment) Act, 1993, and a decision on the date of the meeting will be made shortly.