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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 20 Nov 2002

Vol. 1 No. 2

Annual Report of Department of Defence: Motion.

I call the meeting to order. I extend a warm welcome to the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, the Secretary General of the Department of Defence, Mr. David Callaghan, and officials of the Department. As this is the first occasion on which we are meeting with the Minister, I wish to assure him that the committee intends to work closely and co-operatively with him. We will meet him in the near future in regard to the Estimates.

The purpose of this meeting is to consider a motion pursuant to section 4 of the Defence (Amendment) Act, 1993, laid before the Dáil on 27 October 2002, with regard to the Defence Forces with the UN in 2001. Members have been circulated with the relevant briefing documentation together with the text of the Minister's speech. As we have a vote at 7 p.m., I suggest that the Minister gives a synopsis of his speech and the full text of the speech can be recorded in the minutes of the meeting.

That is agreeable to me. I thank the chairman for welcoming me and the officials of my Department. I also thank my colleagues for attending this meeting. I am happy with the arrangements that have been made and I will give a quick synopsis of the speech so as to facilitate time for questions.

I have just been informed that the report will not be read into the minutes of the meeting unless it is actually read out. Having said that, the members have the full text. Does the Minister feel that a synopsis would be sufficient?

That is clearly unsatisfactory from my point of view.

I propose that the Minister's speech be attached as a document to the minutes of the meeting and that we hear a summary of it from him now.

I thank Deputy McGrath for his suggestion. It would not be appropriate if the report was not included when so much work was put into its preparation. It would be extraordinary if we were not able to do that considering the technology that is available.

We will report back to the House with the full text of the speech and it will be placed in the Oireachtas Library.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the report by the Minister for Defence pursuant to section 4 of the Defence (Amendment) Act, 1993, which was laid before the Dáil on 23 October 2002.

Working with the United Nations in many different parts of the world has been the lifeblood of the Defence Forces. At any one time up to 800 personnel can be involved and last year we were involved in the historic withdrawal from Lebanon after 23 years during which we lost 34 men. We have left a fantastic legacy and made a great contribution to peace in that area. We have now moved to Ethiopia, Eritrea and East Timor. Our soldiers have returned from East Timor, an area in which we had a great interest for many years. I am delighted to see the progress that has been made there. The nature of peacekeeping operations is changing from the traditional UN-led to regionally-led operations. We will conclude our work in SFOR next year and increase the number involved in Kosovo.

One of the best aspects of the work of our peacekeepers has been their interest in humanitarian activities. Members of the committee went to Lebanon and saw this work at first hand. They saw the orphanage at Tibnin and various medical clinics. I had the chance to see the work our personnel are doing in orphanages in Eritrea and I pay tribute to this extension of their activities, which is done in their spare time. It is very important in building a relationship with the community with which we work. A number of men have made the ultimate sacrifice and lost their lives. As Minister for Defence, I have a great sense of pride when I visit the many areas in which the Defence Forces are involved. I am proud of their dynamic approach and professionalism. Their general capacity was a major contributor to securing our place on the Security Council.

A number of us visited our troops in Lebanon and it was an eye-opening experience. It was a valuable trip for members and we got a great feel for the contribution the Defence Forces make internationally. It may be possible to visit our troops in Eritrea and give members the chance to see the value of the service they are giving.

I welcome the opportunity to comment on the tremendous service that has been given by our troops abroad for several decades, probably going back to the 1960s. They are a credit to our country everywhere they go and I understand they are held in high regard in every part of the world. We are also mindful of those who have sacrificed their lives in the duty of peacekeeping in various parts of the world, as well as their families.

Our troops are great ambassadors for this country. Last year, when we had a campaign to get a seat on the Security Council, the contribution of our security forces contributed towards the support we gained worldwide for our efforts in that regard. I would almost put them on par with the Irish missionaries who have travelled to every part of the world.

It is a valuable experience for the troops to go abroad and work with members of defence forces from other countries. Before the troops go abroad to Eritrea, the Lebanon or East Timor for example, are they given any special training to equip them and inform them about what to expect? Apart from bringing essential equipment, do they bring any extra equipment such as vehicles? I know the UN is responsible for meeting the cost of these troops when they are abroad. Are the payments up to date? Have we been recouped for the cost of the services to date?

We are aware of the conditions under which the Defence Forces are committed to serve abroad. There must be a UN security resolution, a Government decision and Dáil approval. It is entirely proper that any service by Irish troops overseas should have the approval of Dáil Éireann and the Government.

At the end of June and the beginning of July, we were on the point of having to withdraw our forces in respect of Kosovo because the United States threatened to employ its veto on Irish troops on peacekeeping missions because it did not want its military personnel to be subject to the International Criminal Court. The Minister made several statements at that time and we were within days, if not hours, of deciding to withdraw our troops until the US relented. It would seem that members of the Security Council almost have a veto on where Irish troops serve. If so, they do not have the imprimatur of the Security Council and we cannot send our troops abroad on peacekeeping missions without it. Therefore, there is a contradiction and a clash, which reached crisis point last summer. I would like to hear the Minister's views on how it was resolved and what will happen if the problem arises in the future. Not only can the United States do what it did, but so also can China, Russia, France and Britain, the permanent members of the Security Council. If they employ a veto forbidding peacekeeping forces in any part of the world, we cannot send our troops abroad. They now seem to be almost in charge of our policy regarding the deployment of our security forces on peacekeeping missions.

I welcome the Minister and fully support the motion before us to pay tribute to all the people who have served in the Defence Forces, particularly those who served abroad in a variety of troubled spots on various missions in a humanitarian and peacekeeping capacity. A significant number of Irish soldiers have lost their lives in the cause of peace internationally, from the Congo in the 1960s to the Lebanon. More recently in East Timor, Private Peadar Ó Flatharta lost his life. We pay tribute to these people.

My questions relate to the direction we are going in terms of peacekeeping and the humanitarian involvement of our Defence Forces. It seems we are moving towards a regional development under the auspices of the UN and it seems to be focused more on Europe than it was in past times in respect of KFOR and SFOR, the Petersberg Tasks and the rapid reaction force. Will the Minister tell us what he feels is the direction of future development? Are we likely to be enhancing our participation on the international stage or focusing more on our European obligations? We have had a number of missions in the Balkans in that context led by NATO, which were mandated by the UN.

The next speaker is Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, whom I congratulate - he is the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on defence and equality in this committee.

I thank the Minister and officials for the clear and concise nature of the report we are discussing. It sets out the extensive international involvement of the Irish Defence Forces with the UN in 2002. Coming from County Kildare, I have a particularly keen interest in matters relating to the Defence Forces. It is impossible not to be impressed by the varied nature of our Army's involvement in UN missions throughout 2001, whether it relates to the commitment of just two officers in an observer capacity in Privlaka or the much more substantial commitment to the interim force in Lebanon, which concluded in November 2001.

In that regard, the committee should acknowledge the enormity of the contribution made by Irish troops to the UNIFIL project over 23 years. In particular, we should remember those 44 members who lost their lives during that mission. They and their families made the ultimate contribution in the quest for peace and conflict resolution.

Since the disengagement from Lebanon, the largest commitment in terms of numbers has been on the mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea, which the Dáil approved in 2001. What does the Minister regard to be the future of this mission? I ask that in the context of the strong commitment of serving members of the Defence Forces to the UN and overseas service generally. Given that we had an average of 550 members per annum in Lebanon over the years, does the Minister foresee future engagement at that level in any one country or does he see us increasing the number of missions in which Irish troops will be involved in the future?

In the context of the wide range of conflicts and international situations in which our Defence Forces have been involved, we should acknowledge the level of skill and expertise that has built up within the ranks. That leads me to two other issues to which the Minister might make reference. One is the ongoing development of the UN school at the military college in the Curragh Camp. I know the Minister has a keen interest in the potential development of that school and he might say a few words on how it can be further developed along the lines it has been working in recent times. Could he comment on the ongoing role of the Defence Forces and how their involvement with the UN in more than a dozen operations internationally can be used as a mechanism for retention and recruitment? The range of activities in which members of the Defence Forces can be involved in is quite impressive. I agree with Deputy McGinley with regard to the financial implications of our involvement because, despite our enthusiastic support for the United Nations and our willingness to participate in dealing with a host of crisis situations, there is a view that the UN is somewhat tardy in meeting its financial obligations. That is evident in the report, which shows that there was a payment of €8.3 million outstanding to Ireland at the end of 2001. The Minister may or may not wish to comment on that matter.

I acknowledge the extent to which improved equipment has extended our capacity to respond internationally. For many years the Defence Forces were hopelessly under-equipped and the current Minister has done more than any of his predecessors to address that deficiency. Will he comment on how the ongoing role of the Mowag programme can enhance our involvement in future UN missions?

I welcome the Minister and I congratulate him on his appointment. I wish him well in his very important position.

I strongly support the report. I have had a long-term interest in observing the UN, which has made a major contribution to international peace. I am a strong supporter of the UN and a strong critic of those who seek to undermine its role. We have seen evidence of the latter in recent days, but it is very important that the UN remains strong.

I pay tribute to the members of the Defence Forces who have been involved in tours of duty. I note that 30,000 tours of duty have been made to date. That is a valuable contribution. The work in the Middle East has been fantastic. I have met the soldiers and heard their stories. I have heard villagers from Lebanon speaking of their respect for the impartiality of the Irish soldiers.

Many people seem to think that those countries with strong values of neutrality and peacekeeping want to stay out of international conflicts and have no contribution to make. I reject that. The report shows the massive contribution we have made to the UN. It shows that Irish people have given their lives in the interest of peace. That is very honourable and something of which I am extremely proud.

I am also proud of the 800 personnel involved throughout 2001. Many of the humanitarian assistance projects were taken on by the personnel themselves, a large number of whom worked outside their normal working hours. This is a positive development. Ireland is a small country, but it can be very effective. I am proud of the work Irish people do for the United Nations. I urge that we do not join NATO or any other militaristic group. We should remain with the UN and work to eradicate its flaws. We must seek to make it more relevant and more effective in the interest of world peace.

I thank my colleagues for the very complimentary remarks they made about the Defence Forces. I appreciate that very much and I will convey those remarks to the Chief of Staff. Notwithstanding the general reluctance of Members to travel, we will look positively on the committee's request to travel to Eritrea. It should be borne in mind that we anticipate our work there will be concluded next June.

Deputy McGinley inquired about special training. Before we have any involvement in UN missions, we send a reconnaissance group, which reports back to us, to the site of the mission. Many aspects of the mission are considered before embarkation. A training course is established which can range from three weeks to several months, depending on experience. We generally favour deploying personnel with experience in conjunction with younger soldiers. All personnel undergo special training courses to prepare them for the circumstances into which they are going. For example, we sent a reconnaissance team to Kosovo before our mission there. It reported on the terrain and the bad roads that would have to be traversed and suggested that we needed new equipment - DROPS - to carry out the mission. We immediately purchased 24 DROPS, specialist equipment that can travel in any terrain, in any conditions and does not require roads. DROPS can carry food, building materials or whatever is required. We are now more prepared and ensure that we have back-up equipment. The next tranche of APCs and anti-armoured equipment is on the way. We need these because our troops will be faced with anti-personnel mines and this gives confidence to the architects of the military regime that the safety of the personnel will be ensured. Safety of personnel is the highest obligation for the Minister of Defence.

UN payments were as follows: €13.59 million in 1997; €9.65 million in 1998; €11.43 million in 1999; €10.03 million in 2000; and €8.38 million in 2001. This year the payment will be €3.4 million. It has gradually improved, but Members should bear in mind that the UN has its own problems in obtaining funding. There may well be some very old bills included in that. Things have improved and we are constantly trying to keep it as up-to-date as possible. It is an expensive business. The Exchequer pays the full cost of a number of the missions and it is important to recoup whatever we can.

Deputy McGinley raised the issue of the problems with the International Criminal Court and the US. We operate under Security Council resolutions and require the triple lock of UN mandate, Government approval and Dáil approval to engage in any mission. This was a problem which affected other contributing nations and would have caused very significant problems for all concerned. I would have been obliged to recall our troops if matters had not been resolved. The problem has been solved, but one cannot forecast what might happen in the future.

Deputy Costello inquired about the direction of peacekeeping and its regional nature. On the first occasion I visited Sarajevo, I recalled the 1,392 days of shelling and the 800 people who were killed crossing a bridge to get food for a starving city. I also recalled the people who spent three or four months digging a tunnel through which they escaped in secret. What was once a people's park on a hillside is now a graveyard for 10,000 people, including 1,800 children. I have always wondered if the international community could not have done something before the events to which I refer occurred. Part of the function of the rapid reaction force - in terms of the effort to streamline activities and work together - is to see if we can intervene earlier. We have tremendous resources, capacity and experience. Why are we going in so late? We went into East Timor when the conflict had been going on for 23 years and one third of the population had been killed. In the village of Fataluro there were 300 villagers and one school with 50 children, a clay floor, one teacher, no pictures, no paint, no pencils, no exercise, nothing. We went in 23 years after it started.

We urge people to understand that we are not joining NATO or any alliances. Ireland is an independent, sovereign country. We must obtain the approval of the Dáil, the Government and the people for what we do in our UN mandated missions. We should ask ourselves serious questions about what has happened. Most of the Deputies will be familiar with what I mean as it is recent history, although one could go back further and pick out other examples. Peacekeeping now has so many different aspects. Compliments and thanks were given for our humanitarian activities, but there is so much to do. We want to build up democracies and improve judicial systems, local authorities, sanitary and water systems and housing. People are trying to find a place for themselves.

Eritrea was mentioned. It has one of the poorest peoples in the world, with 60,000 widows after the war with Ethiopia, 90,000 people without arms and legs in poor hospital facilities and thousands of orphaned children. Something should have been done earlier - that is the principle under which we operate. In a very quick answer for Deputy Costello, we go wherever there is a need, wherever the UN mandate comes from, not especially in Europe, although we have European obligations. There are parts of Africa to which we would like to go, indeed there are many places one would like to go if there were the necessary resources. We want to keep beefing up and improving our work and to keep as many people as we can engaged in these activities. When we get a request from the UN we take it seriously. We do things on a case by case basis, but nine times out of ten when we get a request we go. As I see it - expressing the view of all my colleagues - wherever the need is greatest, wherever we can make a contribution, we will go.

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl mentioned future engagements. Many things need to be done: a camp must be set up and we need to make sure that we have as good accommodation as we can manage. It takes a little time to do that, so our engineering staff and the people going out have a lot of work to do in the beginning. We have purchased Corimacs, which are fantastic pieces of equipment which can be parcelled and opened quickly to set up beds, desks and everything. They are warm in the winter and cool in the summer. They cost about £1 million each and we purchase as many as we can so that wherever we go we can get in quickly, set up an operation and get going.

I support the UN school. People have heard me saying this before, but the first time I went to the Curragh I was ashamed of the place. Geographically, the school is very accessible and it helps to sell Ireland abroad. Last year we had courses there attended by people of 17 nationalities. This shows the extent to which our 40 years of experience in the UN is appreciated - people want to feed into it. We also learn from our experiences and our interactions with other countries. How do we improve things? We do want to improve them? We have spent about €54 million on the Curragh in the last four or five years improving the place generally, including accommodation. This was necessary and the entire ambience is improving. I want it to be a bit more spectacular and a place that really sells Ireland and our UN activities. The Deputies will be glad to hear that we will continue to move in that direction.

I could not agree more with Deputy McGrath regarding the UN. We want to keep the strength of the UN, warts and all, as the Deputy said. The international community and the way we have been able to work so far meets our needs. We must be constantly vigilant to see to what extent our contribution and experience can enhance that worldwide activity. I agree with the Deputy, even though there did not appear to be a consistent view coming across in the Nice referendum. I would have liked to have heard the Deputy say something like that before rather than after the vote.

I am a democrat: I accept the vote.

There is no real problem about it now, but we must make sure that we continue to support that conclusion and that we do not blight it or make people afraid of participating. All the Deputies who have had experience on the international scene know that Ireland is now, notwithstanding Estimates problems and so on, viewed as one of the richest countries in the world. We go to places where they have so little and there is such a great demand that we have to be ready to overlook certain things at times.

The Minister has given comprehensive replies to all the questions asked and we are grateful to him for coming here. I thank him and his officials for their attendance.

One thing just occurred to me. We had a lot of flooding in Dublin at the weekend. The Army, when they arrived, contributed enormously to the success of the operation - so well organised, well led and efficient. Perhaps the Minister could bring that to the attention of the Army officer in charge of McKee Barracks and Cathal Brugha Barracks.

That is right.

That was a well deserved commendation.

I am aware of that. The emergency services also contributed - the Army members were not the only people who had to face the elements, but they certainly contributed. I will convey those remarks. I commend and am grateful to the other emergency services who helped people right through the night.

Is the composition of those participating in the peacekeeping forces entirely male, or do females go abroad as well?

Yes, they do.

Do both go abroad?

I was not aware of that.

From zero about 12 years ago, the number of women is now about 436.

Do they participate in the peacekeeping forces as well?

That is the overall figure. It is open to both, of course.

But so far, females have not participated in——

Oh yes, they have. One in particular was a fantastic driver - you could go all over the place even on your own.

They operate on an equal footing with their male counterparts in the Lebanon: there is no question about that.

Question put and agreed to.
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