SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jun 2009

2009 Annual Output Statement.

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting is to consider the 2009 annual output statement and Revised Estimates for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform group of Votes. I propose that we consider the annual output statement and the Revised Estimates together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for public services be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 19 — Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 20 — Garda Síochána; Vote 21 — Prisons; Vote 22 — Courts Service; and Vote 23 — Property Registration Authority.

I thank the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and his officials for attending and assisting in our consideration of the annual output statement and the Revised Estimates. I invite the Minister to make his presentation.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

I welcome the opportunity to meet the committee as it considers the Estimates for my Department's group of Votes and the 2009 annual output statement. The 2009 annual output statement, which has been circulated to members, is the third such statement to be produced in my Department. As the committee will know, the output statement process was introduced in 2007 with the express purpose of developing a more accessible, coherent and systematic approach to measuring the delivery of Departments' specific targets which derive from individual estimates allocations.

I can inform the committee that my Department's experience to date of this process has been positive. Its continuing implementation and operation is leading to greater precision of focus on the outcomes of departmental spending with consequential improvements in transparency, accountability and value for money.

This process has a particular application for Dáil scrutiny such as today's proceedings, in giving a clear and comprehensive overview of the Department's proposed expenditure in 2009, as well as the outputs expected to flow from the funding allocated. I trust this format will assist today's deliberations.

Before addressing the detail of this year's financial provision for the justice sector, it important that I set out the context in which the 2009 Estimates were framed. The prevailing economic environment has led to an unprecedented contraction in Exchequer finances. Consequently, the financial pot from which departmental moneys are allocated has shrunk considerably. On taking up office as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and having an appreciation for the likely outcome of the Exchequer position on the justice sector, I set tackling crime as my top and absolute priority for 2009 and directed my officials accordingly in the context of my Department's participation in the Estimates negotiation process. In the circumstances I was, therefore, pleased to be able to deliver an Estimates package of more than €2.57 billion for the justice sector in 2009. This package has at its heart the key priorities of policing, crime prevention and tackling crime and to the greatest extent possible preserves front-line services and maintains core functions across the sector.

While voted expenditure for 2009 shows a reduction of approximately 4.5% on the equivalent figure for 2008, it stands well above previous years' allocations. By way of contrast, the sector's gross allocation in 2007, 2006 and 2005 was €2.45 billion, €2.22 billion and €2.07 billion, respectively. Clearly, while the sector has fewer resources at its disposal now than in 2008, its financial allocation remains 24% above the 2005 position. However, that said, it is the case that due to restricted resources and the re-prioritisation of spending in line with my policy of funding following priorities some areas have had their budgets significantly reduced. I regret that these reductions were necessary, but this is the unavoidable reality, given the Exchequer position and the restricted resources we now have and will have in the years ahead. That is the reality of being in government, having to make choices and not pretending to be all things to all people all the time.

In finalising individual agencies' budgets my Department was anxious to ensure all agencies would at the very least retain funding to discharge their core activities. We have achieved this, even if it means all areas must operate on a no frills basis, forgoing all unnecessary and non-essential expenditure.

I have stated my position clearly. At all times I have focused on preserving front-line services across the justice sector with a strong emphasis on obtaining value for money because that is what the public demands and expects the Government to do. The 2009 Estimates provision balances that objective with my overall priority of tackling crime.

Turning to the detail of the annual output statement, Deputies will be familiar with the nine core programmes or pillars across which the full array of the activity of the Department and its associated agencies is accounted. The annual output statement before the committee takes members through each of the programme areas, identifying the planned expenditure, broken down into programme and administrative outlay, and also setting out the number of staff employed under each heading. The statement then sets down specific output commitments on which it is intended to deliver during the course of the year, using the resources provided. In addition, a progress report on the 2008 output undertakings is given. On that front, I am pleased to report that the 2008 targets have in the main been achieved. In a small number of instances where it has not been possible to deliver in full, substantial progress has been recorded. The 2009 statement builds on the momentum of previous years, notwithstanding the fiscal situation. As in previous statements, specific targets are set. All that we aim to achieve in the current year is not limited to the stated targets, but they represent priority areas on our list of objectives.

A considerable amount of detail is provided in the annual output statement. In many respects it speaks for itself; therefore, I propose to keep the remainder of my opening remarks to highlighting pertinent areas and items that I know will be of particular interest to the committee.

Beginning with the community, security, law enforcement and crime prevention programme, €1.56 billion is provided in the Garda Vote component of the programme. This represents a 3% reduction on the figure for 2008. It would have been preferable if this reduction could have been avoided, but when compared to previous years' allocations, the facts speak for themselves. Again, by way of contrast, the gross Garda Vote allocation amounted to €1.45 billion in 2007 and €1.31 billion in 2006. The incontestable truth is the current Garda budget is now substantially larger than it was two or three years ago. This emphatically belies repeated accusations from some quarters that gardaí are being forced to operate with one hand tied behind their backs.

The facts are clear. Funding for two of the key components of the Garda Commissioner's strategy to target criminal gangs has been significantly increased. Operation Anvil's ring-fenced allocation has been increased to €21 million and funding for the CAB by 20%, enabling it to continue its vital work in seizing criminals' assets. Supporting the CAB's efforts are 102 Garda asset profilers located throughout the State who are profiling persons in local communities suspected of being involved in drug dealing or other forms of serious criminal activity.

Almost €68 million has been earmarked for IT and communications projects and equipment. This budget provides for the continued maintenance and enhancement of Garda systems and, more important, will facilitate the roll-out of the new national digital radio service. The roll-out of this secure, leading edge communications system commenced today in the Dublin metropolitan region where it will be fully operational by the end of August. Other Garda regions will follow in line with the provision of the network infrastructure.

The Government's long-term commitment to supporting the Garda Síochána is further evident in the very considerable increase in garda numbers in recent years. Again, the facts are indisputable. The number of attested gardaí increased from 10,968 at the end of 1997 to 11,895 at the end of 2002, to 13,755 at the end of 2007 and to 14,478 in the most recent figures. Even in this year of budgetary constraints, some 900 gardaí will be attested. While I am very mindful of the increased rate of garda retirements, a situation which I assure the committee is being kept under close review, I remain confident that the force is well placed to absorb the impact of budgetary and other constraints and continue to provide a top class policing service.

The community, security, law enforcement and crime prevention programme includes other key agencies involved in tackling crime. Most notably, a funding package of over €16 million is set aside for the Forensic Science Laboratory and the State Pathologist's Office. In particular, this provides for the development of a new State pathology laboratory and will facilitate the ongoing planning of the implementation arrangements for a DNA database which will be of considerable assistance in the investigation of crime.

As I said, my top priority is to maintain the crime fighting capacity of the Garda Síochána. For that reason I am advancing with speed a comprehensive and sweeping criminal justice reform programme. These measures will not only radically strengthen the hand of the Garda Síochána in tackling serious criminal activity but will also rebalance the criminal justice system in order that the advantage lies on the side of law and order and the victims of crime. Much of this legislation is already before the Oireachtas; the Surveillance, Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill and the Criminal Procedure Bill are progressing through the Houses. The criminal justice (amendment) Bill which will primarily allow for gangland criminals to be tried in the Special Criminal Court and introduce new offences of directing a criminal organisation and participation in organised crime will be published shortly. I also expect to publish legislation establishing the DNA database in the coming months.

We must develop a long-term perspective and policy on criminal justice matters. With this goal in mind, I am advancing the State's first ever White Paper on crime which will map out how the criminal justice system should evolve in order that it is best placed to meet future challenges.

The Irish Prison Service's 2009 gross Estimate allocation is €379 million and, although this represents a reduction of 3.8% on the 2008 figure, it remains 7% above the Estimate provision for 2007. Again, as in 2008, provision for prison buildings and equipment features prominently, with good reason. Two key priorities for the Irish Prison Service remain the full implementation of the intensive and targeted series of measures being taken to replace and modernise the prison infrastructure and to strengthen prison security. To this end, a financial envelope of €48.3 million is provided.

Significant investment has been made in the prison system in recent years. Since 1997, in excess of 1,300 prison spaces have come on stream in the prison system. However, despite this investment, clearly in some of our prisons we are operating in excess of bed capacity due principally to the 7% rise in the number in custody in the past 12 months. I am dealing resolutely with this issue and 400 new prison spaces will come on stream in the coming weeks and months in Castlerea, Portlaoise and Wheatfield prisons.

In addition, 70 new places have recently been made available at Shelton Abbey and Loughan House. In the longer term, as has been made abundantly clear in recent weeks, the Government is firmly committed to replacing the prisons on the Mountjoy complex with modern prison accommodation at Thornton Hall. Within the next few weeks I will be bringing comprehensive new proposals to the Government setting out how we can proceed with building a new, modern, regime-oriented and cost-effective prison complex at Thornton Hall that best meets taxpayers' interests.

Turning to the courts programme, substantial investment will continue to be made in capital developments with €21 million provided for the building programme and €8.6 million to support the ongoing maintenance and enhancement of the Courts Service ICT infrastructure. For 2009 the roll-out of a digital audio recording system to 69 courtrooms nationwide is a key target in the ongoing implementation of the courts' four year ICT strategic plan. I also draw the attention of Deputies to the success to date of the criminal justice interoperability pilot project which has electronically linked the Garda Síochána, the Courts Service and the Irish Prison Service. Quicker processing of summons applications and reductions in duplication and manual work are the highly positive results of the project so far as case results are now communicated via the system.

Major courthouse works will continue in 2009 in Kilkenny, Monaghan, Gorey, Youghal and Kilmallock. I am also pleased to inform the committee that the public private partnership, PPP, criminal courts complex project, near Heuston Station, is well ahead of schedule and due for completion by the end of the year. This project is among the most ambitious and progressive ever advanced in the history of the State and will stand as an iconic and lasting legacy of the Government's unparalleled investment in the criminal justice system. The Four Courts, in the more than 300 years of its existence, has witnessed momentous events in Irish history. It continues to be an unequalled symbol of the rule of law and the permanency of justice. The new Courts of Criminal Justice Complex, situated as it is at the historic western entrance to the capital, marks the contribution of our time to the sense of permanency of justice. I am sure that, like its sister building, further down the quays it, too, will be a witness to great drama. There will be 21 new courtrooms.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I know it is Bloomsday, but this is a bit over the top.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is a fantastic location and a fantastic courts complex and I have no doubt that the Deputy will welcome it with open arms.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I do.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

No doubt the Deputy will attend the opening of the complex in the coming months.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The question is whether the Minister will attend the opening.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The promotion of a tolerant and equitable society is also a specific programme area within the annual output statement. This year's allocation of €40 million will be targeted at maintaining our equality infrastructure and advancing the Government's commitments across the range of activities encompassed by the programme which include gender equality, disability, domestic violence and interculturalism.

In the area of immigration and asylum, the total gross provision is €142.9 million. Again, this year the greater proportion of this allocation will be directed towards running the asylum system, especially the adjudication of asylum claims and the accommodation of persons in the system. In connection with this, I can tell the committee that various efficiency and cost reduction measures are being implemented with the aim of reducing the costs associated with asylum applications.

In other areas such as citizenship additional resources are being made available to reduce backlogs and processing times. Additionally, investment continues to be made in leading edge IT technology designed to upgrade and enhance our visa, immigration, asylum and identification systems, leading to enhanced capacity to tackle illegal immigration, improve customer service and enable speedier processing of immigration applications. These progressive initiatives and strategies will be further complemented by the comprehensive framework for immigration matters being enunciated in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill which I expect will be enacted later this year.

Under the probation and youth services programmes, following on from the substantial investment of recent years, funding is being maintained at €120 million. In addition to its core functions of managing offenders in the community and advancing strategies contributing to reductions in reoffending, a specific output target for the probation service will be to develop and implement an all-island risk assessment system for sex offenders. This will complement the broader range of sex offender rehabilitation and monitoring initiatives being advanced by the service and also the Irish Prison Service. Specifically, in this connection, Deputies will be aware of my recent decision to establish a project board, led by the probation service, to examine the implementation of electronic monitoring in this jurisdiction. In other states this type of technology has proven a useful tool in supporting criminal justice systems' supervision regimes. In the Irish context electronic monitoring could, for example, assist the probation service and the Garda Síochána in managing sex offenders and offenders in general. The issues involved, including cost and viability considerations, are the subject of the board's examination.

The youth justice service, which is implementing a new approach to dealing with the issues of youth offending and youth diversion, will focus on the implementation of the national youth justice strategy and the development of new measures to improve the effectiveness of Garda youth diversion projects in dealing with crime problems in local communities. The service will also advance its programme to overhaul and improve youth detention facilities.

The final programme area I will mention is that relating to the Property Registration Authority whose 2009 financial provision amounts to €42.6 million. Maintaining 2008's momentum which saw the completion of more than 240,000 legal transactions, the authority has set a target of completing a further 200,000 such dealings this year. Other key priorities include the continued implementation of its electronic services programme, particularly the digital mapping project where the aim this year is to bring to 23 the number of counties whose maps have been fully digitised.

Deputies will be aware that the Government decided last year that in line with falling prices generally, fees for the provision of professional services such as legal, medical, consultancy and so forth, should be reduced by 8%. That decision continues to be implemented in my Department and its agencies, and while it is difficult to be precise at this stage, the savings are likely to be in the region of €4 million in a full year.

Furthermore, my Department has gone a step further in that it has sought to apply this reduction on an across the board basis. This means, for example, that suppliers of goods to the Irish Prison Service, as well as direct provision accommodation suppliers for asylum seekers, have all been required to yield an 8% saving. Over a full year the savings will be significant and I intend to direct any available funding freed up as a result to front line anti-crime and policing measures.

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to give a broad overview of the Estimates and the annual output statement.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I thank the Minister for his presentation. On the basis that all the Votes will be taken together, I will deal with Vote 20 for the Garda Síochána. The figures give the lie to the repeated promise and commitment not only by the Minister but by his colleagues, particularly the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea, who seems to deputise for him, that front line services will not be affected by the economic downturn. The fact that Garda overtime is being reduced by almost one third speaks for itself and undoubtedly organised criminals will be celebrating because the cutbacks will severely hamper gardaí in the course of their duties. In spite of what the Minister states, it is clear that the cut in Garda overtime will have a direct impact on Operation Anvil, which operates mainly on an overtime basis. In Finglas, west Dublin, Operation Anvil used to operate on a 24/7 basis, it is now down to four days a week, business hours only. That will have serious consequences. As the Minister will be aware, there have been 14 gangland gun murders already this year and reports show that one Finglas man is suspected of committing five of these murders, yet in that area, Garda activity is being wound down. When the Minister addressed the committee in October, he stated he was facing a choice between reducing Garda overtime or scaling back on the number of new gardaí joining the force. Given the recruitment embargo, it seems the Minister did not exercise one option but both, seeing how Garda overtime has been slashed.

Will the Minister address the matter of the current status of the Garda training college in Templemore which he seems to have subjected to an orderly winding down in terms of proposed activity later this year? Will he inform the committee what is occurring in this regard? How many recruits will enter the college between now and the end of the year? Is the number of full-time staff, including trainers, being wound down? What effects will the recruitment embargo have on staff?

The Minister mentioned the long-awaited roll-out of the digital radio service. I welcome the progress made, but there are still difficulties in so far as the service is not being advanced as anticipated. There are problems, given the reports that devices cannot be switched off. This problem could lead to serious problems were devices to fall into the wrong hands. After 11 years, we are still experiencing difficulties and the roll-out does not extend beyond Dublin. What plans does the Minister have for extending the service beyond the Dublin metropolitan area this year? Subhead A4 includes provision for radio operating costs, an increase of €5 million. Will the annual cost to the State of operating the radios in Dublin be €5 million or does the figure anticipate something about which we have not heard, namely, the extension of the service?

The budget for the maintenance of Garda stations has decreased by 70%. How does the Minister expect stations to operate? Some review, the particulars of which have not been published and about which no one seems to know, has been reported. Will the Minister enlighten the committee as to the position, with particular reference to small, rural Garda stations? They seem to be the subject of a review about which no one knows.

The Minister will be aware of the hundreds of stations operating a service for a couple of hours a day. In effect, if a station is only open for an hour or two in the morning and we are then told most stations will be closed, it is closure by stealth. The operation of a station at such a level is not too far removed from closure. Station services have been cut by nearly 50%. The Minister's figures suggest Garda stations' utility bills will decrease by more than 50%. This will occur if stations do not open.

The spat between the Minister and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, over the funding of the Equality Authority has not been resolved. The latter is gung ho and satisfied that the changes to be introduced by the former will not go ahead. The matter seems to have been kicked to the public service review group and the details will be published during the summer. As far as this issue is concerned, we have the worst of both worlds. The authority is operating in two locations and seemingly subject to the direct jurisdiction not only of the Department but also the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

With regard to the Probation Service, the Minister might advert to the position on community service orders which are important in the context of non-custodial sentences for non-violent offenders. This would go a long way towards easing the pressure on prison populations. The Fines Bill has also still not been enacted. Will the Minister clarify the community service order issue? According to the Courts Service, the number of such orders has declined in recent years, with a reduction of 44% since the beginning of the millennium. However, according to the Central Statistics Office, the number of orders issued has increased by 52% since 2000. Both figures cannot be correct. Which figure is the Minister using? Which is accurate? A value for money review of community service orders is under way. Why did the Minister not wait until the review was completed to inform himself about the viability of the recommendations regarding the scheme because it will have to be revisited?

I will turn to prisons later and acknowledge that we discussed the issue in the Dáil. I regret that educational services in prisons are being curtailed, with a reduction in the budget of 17.7%. This, again, flies in the face of sound prison policy and is most regrettable.

The allocation to the Probation Service is being reduced, yet the Minister in a number of speeches has elaborated on increased tasks for the service. Giving it additional tasks while providing less money is a difficult undertaking. Given that the number of prisoners on temporary release increased by 300% over 18 months, it is feared that temporary release is being used by the Minister to relieve overcrowding in prisons, but if temporary release is used, one would expect a greater role for the Probation Service to serve offenders released early or temporarily. However, no money will be provided.

The departmental annual output statement for 2009 makes for disappointing reading because the performance indicators are vague and fall short of what is required to judge performance in a meaningful way. No baseline numbers are provided for any of the documents analysed. Therefore, it is not possible to engage in a comparative analysis of targets, for which specific responsibility has not been referred to. It is little more than a meaningless exercise to examine planned output for 2009 midway through the year; this is hardly best practice. We should have done this at the beginning of the year before the money was allocated. The annual output statement is in no way linked with the budgeting process or the Estimates. Outputs are projected, but no quantifiable policy programme targets can measure success.

The Minister drafted a strategy statement for two years and stated his intention to prioritise various areas, including gun crime, organised crime, drugs and public order offences. These are measurable programmes and priorities, but none of the Minister's plans, promises or commitments has been included in the annual output statement. These priorities are misguided if they are not to be analysed. The first departmental annual output statement in 2007 proposed to put in place the on-line Small Claims Court system that year. I checked the website yesterday and the service is not even working. Progress towards the realisation of the 3% employment target for people with disabilities was to be monitored, but this is not mentioned. It was a priority in October 2008, but is not referred to at all in 2009. The contract for the Thornton Hall complex was to be finalised in 2007; that speaks for itself. The plan for a national DNA database was to be implemented, but this is not mentioned in the annual output statement.

The annual output statement is supposed to be based on commitments made in the programme for Government, but on the 96 commitments referred to in the justice section of the programme for Government we do not have any information worth analysing. There is no great ambition in the annual output statement or the Minister's brief and the failure to manage resources has resulted in depriving the citizenry of the opportunity to have extra gardaí on the streets, more prison spaces and greater protection for victims of crime. I do not believe the exercise in which we are engaged today will yield worthwhile results or benefits for the taxpayer or vested interests such as the Garda and others involved.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not accept what the Deputy stated on the lack of ambition. As Minister, I am gaining the benefit of substantial increases in the Estimates in the past five or six years and the numbers bear repeating. The number of gardaí has increased from 13,775 at the end of 2007 to 14,785 today and 900 gardaí are in training in Templemore. That belies any accusation that we have not provided funding. Even the figure of 13,775 at the end of 2007 represented an increase from approximately 11,000 a few years previously. I have made the point previously that it was always the case that an overtime level of €110 million to €120 million in an overall budget of €1.65 billion for Garda pay represented an inordinate percentage and compared unfavourably with that for other police forces of similar size and budget. In the context of dramatically increased numbers in the past five, six or seven years, it is not unreasonable to expect overtime payments to decrease. I accept than in any police force, given the exigencies of crime, one must have an element of overtime to be able to react 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but in 18 months the number of gardaí has increased by approximately 1,000 and it is not unreasonable to expect a reduced need for such a dramatic level of overtime.

Thanks to the good work of the Garda Commissioner and his management team, the Garda is living within the indicative amount in the Estimates for this year of €80 million without any appreciable difficulty. There is still significant visibility on the streets, something I have constantly stated to the Garda Commissioner and his staff. I am pushing an open door in this respect, given the very dramatic changes made in community policing. During my time in public life it has always been my view that people want to see gardaí on the streets. There have been times in the past 25 years when we did not have gardaí on the streets; they were only visible in Garda stations or cars. We have put in place 2,500 or 2,600 civilians in Garda stations in the past five years. That has released many gardaí who heretofore were pushing pens in Garda stations. The investment in the IT system means that gardaí no longer have to go back to the station to report incidents and feed information for the serving of summonses. There is a call centre in Castlebar where the use of the latest technology has revolutionised the paper work system for servicing summonses.

The Deputy said Operation Anvil was under pressure. It most certainly is not. Last year's allocation was €20 million; this year's is €21 million, which sum is ring-fenced. The Deputy also mentioned Finglas. I have discussed the position there and in other areas with the Garda Commissioner and there is no diminution in the fight against organised crime in such areas. The opposite is the case. More resources have been allocated to Finglas and some of the more difficult areas in Dublin than any other part of the country. I want to debunk any suggestion from the Deputy or anyone else because the Commissioner has assured me that, with the budget increase, Operation Anvil is working well in the fight against crime. There is no wind-down of the operation.

Owing to the increased Garda numbers this year an extra 600,000 policing man hours are available to the Garda, based on increased strength and taking into account reductions in overtime. That is not inconsiderable.

Templemore training college is still very active. I have been there several times recently. There has been a reduction in the number of ancillary staff, but with 900 people going through the system, it continues to operate to its maximum potential. There is no doubt that, if the moratorium continues, it will continue to act as a centre for the necessary retraining and constant upskilling of gardaí. There is no question of its being mothballed.

The Garda switched on the digital radio service in Dublin today. I understand it has been done successfully. The service will be rolled out to the eastern region to be completed before the end of the year and should be nationwide in the next two years. It is a significant process which I have seen in my own neck of the woods, involving substantial infrastructure, not just for the Garda but also for the other emergency services, including the ambulance service and the fire service, etc. I have already received many complaints from my constituents who have been accustomed to analogue television services from across the Border when no one else in the country had them. They allege that the new TETRA system installed in the area is interfering with the service.

I read a newspaper report a month or two ago on the review of Garda stations and spoke to the Commissioner about it. He said it was totally erroneous and that there was no question of Garda stations being closed.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Is there a review?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

A review is ongoing.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

That is what I asked.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is an internal review. Any proposal for the closure of Garda stations is a matter for the Commissioner in the first instance. Such proposals are required to be included in his annual policing plan which, following approval by the Minister, is laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. Like any good manager of any organisation, he is reviewing the issue, but there is no intention, as part of the review, to close any Garda station. He is trying to see how they can be put to better use. The Garda Inspectorate has been tasked with examining policing practices in a rural and urban environment, as well as the current rostering system. The Commissioner has assured me there is no intention to close any Garda station. On issues such as rostering he is trying to see how the force can make better use of the current infrastructure in Garda stations, but, ultimately, it is a matter for him to decide.

Deputy Flanagan raised the issue of the Equality Authority. He was correct in saying it was subject to the ongoing expenditure review group examination. I understand the review group will report soon and that, ultimately, the Government will have to make decisions in that respect. The new CEO of the Equality Authority, Ms Renee Dempsey, is formally taking up the position today, following a substantial competition for the post. The authority is holding its first meeting in Roscrea today.

On the issue of community service orders, Deputy Flanagan has said there has been a reduction of 44%. As he is aware, that is not a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We provide the Judiciary with the legislation and it is its choice whether it wants to use community service orders. I would like to think, however, that such orders would be part of the panoply of punishment and rehabilitation measures for prisoners and would favour their use, particularly for low-risk offenders.

On the question of prisons, I do not accept that there has been a reduction in education services. It is the case, however, that there has been pressure on prison places. This is a direct result of the Government's success in recent years in providing for an increased number of gardaí and judges. As a consequence, more people are being convicted. There has been a 7% increase in the number coming before the courts which have been provided with the necessary resources. I have no doubt this will continue to be the case, particularly having regard to the new criminal court complex beside Heuston Station where the most modern facilities will be available for the hearing of criminal cases. Only civil cases will continue to be heard in the Four Courts. The new criminal court complex is a substantial addition.

The Deputy is debunking the key indicators in regard to crime and road traffic offences; he has obviously not looked at the Garda Commissioner's annual report and strategy statement which sets out the specific details.

In regard to the Probation Service, 50 additional probation officers have been appointed during the past two years. This shows the dramatic investment that has been made in the service. If I recall correctly, €120 million was provided for youth services to divert young people away from a life of crime.

I do not accept the criticism made by the Deputy, but I know he has a job to do and has to make his case. The fact is one cannot deny that there has been a dramatic exponential increase in investment and numbers of personnel in the justice area in recent years. One cannot have one's cake and eat it. On the one hand, Deputy Flanagan criticises the Government for not spending enough and, on the other, says it should make more cuts. His party suggests we should not increase taxes but make cuts. The Exchequer has €55 billion, €22.8 billion of which goes on social welfare, €20 billion on public sector pay, with the rest going on services. Where should we make more cuts? The budgetary document Fine Gael submitted before the last budget advocated going further than we went. That is the luxury of being in opposition.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The Minister is straying away from the specifics. He is taking €35 million from the Garda Síochána but still creating jobs for the boys by appointing assistant film classifiers and prison visiting committees.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Deputy is very good at meting out criticism but not good at taking it.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The figures speak for themselves.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

While the Government might be open to criticism, it must live within budgets and financial constraints. One cannot look at it in the context of continuous exponential rises when the resources available to the State are falling. I can understand the Deputy has a job to do in criticising the Government for not providing for another percentage increase in the amount of money available. However, I made it clear when I became Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that I had one priority and that was tackling crime. I decided to divert funds. I did so with an apology for cutting in other areas across the Department. However, it was possible to fund these areas to a huge extent when money was flush. Much of it was discretionary spending. It is not now possible to expend money in the way in we did. I should be given some credit for focusing on the crime issue.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

If the Minister is going to hang his reputation on tackling crime——

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I increased the money available for Operation Anvil and the Criminal Assets Bureau, the areas in which we should be tackling crime.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I thank the Minister for the information he has given us. Following the latest cuts, he has given us a good deal of information and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss it. I have some reservations about the value of this exercise of discussing the Estimates and the manner in which we make public expenditure decisions after the event. The kind of discussion one might have on the Estimates ought to be as set out in a document such as the one I authored for the Committee of Public Accounts a number of years ago and that some others in the House have taken up but the Government has not, although it paid lip-service to it at the time. Instead of the traditional "no change plus inflation" way of deciding public expenditure, we need to radically overhaul the entire system because nothing will change as a result of whatever discussion we engage in today. The decisions have been made. The Minister has told us of the housekeeping and other costs and nothing we say will change them. It serves only to undermine the potential of committees to do their job.

The Minister will remember how the Government came to power in 1997. It came to power on a single issue, namely, that of justice. He will remember the shenanigans in the House on the subject of crime when his party was in opposition. The country was a pastoral, Buddhist nirvana in 1997 compared to the current situation. We did a lot of jumping up and down between 1994 and 1997, but not a weekend goes by nowadays in which there is not at least one and sometimes two murders. Gangland feuding is worse than it ever was and endemic drug problems have caused the destruction of some communities. They have been ravaged by drug pushing and drug abuse and politicians who do not engage with these communities on a habitual basis but did so during recent election campaigns have now discovered how serious the problem is.

I agree that the Minister has to live within restrictions and that money is not as flaithiúlach as it was. I also agree with those who say the Government walked us into this position. Stripping the structural deficit from the ESRI report, what is left is the element to which the Government has contributed and amounts to approximately half of the figure which the Minister told Deputy Flanagan he needed to address the issue. The country now acknowledges this fact and we are where we are, but it will pose a major challenge to combating crime.

On the Garda Vote, I recall discussions with the Minister's predecessors explaining the ABC of policing to us and how overtime was an integral part of policing. To the layman, the overtime element of the Garda budget seems out of control, but former Ministers, Mr. Michael McDowell, Deputy Brian Lenihan and Deputy John O'Donoghue, explained how we could not police on a nine-to-five basis. I cannot understand how the Minister can now say cutting Garda overtime by more than 30% will not have an impact. Of course, it will have an impact. The Minister talks about the number of civilians he has recruited to carry out clerical and desk-bound tasks, but that is not what was intended by the authors of civilianisation, in which civilians were brought in to complete tasks for which one did not need to be a policeman or policewoman. The policemen and women were to be released to fight crime on the streets.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That is what is happening.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

No, it is not and I have the figures to illustrate my point. Additional civilians have been recruited, but gardaí have not been placed in the community as a result.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That is incorrect.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Minister has told Deputy Flanagan that he cannot allow costs to rise exponentially; I agree, but that is what went on for the past dozen years. The Government merely added to the number of civilian workers in the Garda Síochána, without putting out more gardaí to fight crime and in the community to visibly patrol neighbourhoods. We must return to the issue of community policing and neighbourhood patrols if we are to contain problems in seriously afflicted areas. The drugs problem is causing mayhem for families and communities in parts of this and other cities.

Another persistent major issue during the period in office of the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Michael McDowell, was the extent to which Garda reservists could assist gardaí in the discharge of their functions. I do not know whether there is much or any commitment to the notion behind the Garda Reserve and what resources the Minister intends to devote to it. It appears, however, that there is little commitment to it. It would be better if the Minister were to confess that he was not committed to it as we could then move on.

Regarding the 70% reduction in the provision for the maintenance of Garda stations, I will give an example of all politics being local. In 1997 Tallaght was afforded divisional status; believe it or not, notwithstanding 95,000 people being resident in the area, it was a sub-district of the Crumlin division. The then Minister for Justice, Ms Nora Owen, decided to accord the area divisional status, arising from which it was supposed to attract extra manpower, vehicles and so on. However, Minister after Minister since has said the extra manpower envisaged by divisional status cannot be provided because there is not suitable accommodation available. I had the privilege of visiting various superintendents — the rate of turnover is remarkable — and each went to the filing cabinet to show me the plans for extension. This has been ongoing for ten years and the Government has only gone as far as booking accommodation in the neighbouring hotel complex. This is to enable gardaí to discharge their basic functions because they cannot do so from the Garda station.

The 95,000 people living in Tallaght have one inadequate and seriously overcrowded Garda station. Many proposals have been examined by the Minister's predecessors, the Secretary General of the Department and the OPW. Is there any prospect of the joint venture, a public private partnership or something else proceeding to provide adequate accommodation for gardaí in Tallaght? No other area of the country would tolerate such treatment. The level of Garda manpower in Tallaght compared to that in Limerick is disgraceful. The Minister says Tallaght does not have the acute problems of Limerick, but it may in future if adequate policing resources are not provided for the area. We are not doing that.

I welcome the complex that is being built to house the criminal courts. I did not appreciate that it would be such an iconic building and I notice that there has never been any boundary to the capacity of Irish civil servants to write English. I did not realise that it will be a sister building of the Four Courts that will in time be a witness to great drama. I hope it does not witness some of the drama that the Four Courts experienced and I would hope that we will be able to remove the Minister without resort to that action. If iconic building it is I certainly welcome it.

In terms of the problems with prison spaces and so on, will the Minister address the reports on Mountjoy Prison, described as a pressure cooker by some of the people who have made contact with this side of the House? What measures, if any, has the Minister in mind in the short term to deal with it? The Minister refers to the 1,300 plus places provided in recent years and the 400 places coming on stream, which I take it are in addition to the 1,300 and the 70 places at Loughan House and so on. Will he give a breakdown of the location of 1,300 places?

The negotiations with the preferred bidder for the proposed development of Thornton Hall collapsed a few weeks ago and the Minister then stated he would be going to Cabinet. In this script he again states he will go to Cabinet in a few weeks but could the Minister be more specific on when the memo will go to Cabinet? I am having considerable difficulty in understanding what steps the Minister will take in that regard, given the financial constraints and the costs that have been put into the public domain about this misconceived monstrosity at Killsallaghan. Is there not time for us to rethink the super-prison idea and take an alternative course?

Some experts on penal reform who made alternative suggestions to the Department felt they were not listened to and were excluded. I am still at a complete loss to understand this proposal. The Minister withdrew from the concluding negotiations with the preferred bidder because it was too expensive, and as we do not have the figures I cannot comment. The Minister may have been right to have done that, but how does he expect that preferred bidder to be replaced by another that will provide the facility more cheaply? I have never been able to understand that. The State paid €30 million for that farm and I do not want to see it apportioned for allotments for the Green Party to grow carrots, but this is an opportunity for us to rethink the project.

I agree with the points the Minister made about trying to divert young people from ending up in the criminal justice system and occupying prison places. I do not think we are doing enough in that area nor are we doing enough in terms of restorative justice. I am not sure I understand the Minister's point on the probation service. Will the Minister explain subhead H2, where it would appear that the budgetary provision has decreased by €2 million on last year's figure? How is this consistent with the Minister's statement?

Now that the Minister and his Secretary General have been successful in getting rid of Niall Crowley, does the Department intend to restore some of the Equality Authority's funding so that it might be able to discharge its function under the law?

Does subhead G17 on the National Property Services Regulatory Authority make assumptions about the enactment of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill 2006, Committee Stage of which the Dáil has disposed of? Does the implementation of the new systems envisioned in the Bill have additional costs or is it a post-2009 matter and one that will not impact this year?

Does the Minister have more information on the issue of Garda retirements now than he had at Question Time? If I am putting words in his mouth, he should correct me, but it is my understanding that he admitted that the number retiring was considerably higher this year than in previous years. Does he have figures on the 2009 outturn of retirement from the service?

Will the Minister tell the committee about the systems in place to enforce his cut in professional fees? It seems that people in the private and public sectors are suffering definite and significant income reduction. Concerns about competitiveness are bound to contribute to the problem. However, the sheltered private sector, as far as I interact with it and irrespective of what category of professional one is discussing, does not seem to be experiencing a reduction in fees. What systems are in place in the Department for dealing with this matter?

Every time an election approached during the past dozen years, one of the Minister's ministerial colleagues would get apoplectic about, for example, the cost of lawyers' fees at tribunals. Some Ministers would become speechless in direct proportion to an election's proximity and claim that they would do the devil and all about capping fees. The former Minister, Michael McDowell, weighed in a number of times. When the election had passed, however, we found that he had actually increased those fees as the Attorney General.

I do not question the Minister's word when he states that he is enforcing an 8% reduction, but how does that mechanism operate in the Department? I have little confidence in lawyers cutting lawyers' fees, for example. This is the way that briefs are handled in this country, but the like is not found among doctors or accountants. It would appear that the brunt of the cuts must be taken by people in "ordinary jobs" whereas people in the professions do not seem to be affected.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I refer to issue of the crime figures in 1997 apropos today's figures. Sometimes I am accused of going back to 1997.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The Minister does that all the time.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I recall the crime level at the time was relatively comparable.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It was relatively low.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It was not. Unfortunately, the murder rate in those years was at the same level as it is today. I am not complacent about this, nor should anyone be, but the comparison is not correct, particularly in view of the way society has developed here with substantially more people in the country and a completely new ethnic landscape across the country in the intervening years. The Garda has responded to that well, as have other public sector workers in schools and so on. Governments of every colour were criticised over the years regarding the Garda overtime bill. This reduction has been forced on us by financial circumstances but it is not unreasonable to expect that where Garda numbers have increased dramatically, the need for overtime is not as acute. The internationally recommended level of overtime is between 8% and 12% of the Garda pay bill. Last year in Ireland it was 12% and, therefore, it exceeded best international practice. This year, because of the reduction, overtime will be 10% of the pay bill.

Civilianisation has helped dramatically and I witness this as I visit Garda stations. In my area, civilianisation has helped to put gardaí on the street. That will continue. The Garda Reserve is working well. While its members have a restricted remit, it was given to them by the Oireachtas and we were not prepared to allow them on to the streets on their own. They must be accompanied by a full-time garda and that is as it should be given they are reservists. We are on line to achieve 10% of Garda strength in the reserve over the lifetime of the Government.

I refer to Tallaght Garda station. I do not dictate which Garda station is renovated, extended or replaced. That is a matter for the Garda Commissioner and his management team working with the OPW. I have no budget or responsibility for this. I wish that the Garda suite of stations——-

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Of course, the Minister has responsibility.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Under previous legislation, power was given to the Garda Commissioner. Working with the OPW, he produces an annual plan in this regard, which is approved by the Oireachtas. He decides on the issue. Like all public representatives, I am conscious that it is necessary to have the best accommodation for increased Garda numbers. In recent weeks, I have opened a plethora of new Garda stations. They are the most magnificent buildings——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

On each occasion the Minister stated he wanted to tell everyone he had nothing to do with it, that he had no responsibility, that it was built by the——

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I have marvelled at the investment. In some Garda stations they have provided significant new accommodation in new modular buildings which are working very well. At Navan Garda station there has been a significant increase in accommodation. I know that when the Garda Commissioner appeared before the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's rights, the Deputy raised the issue of Tallaght Garda station with him. While I know it is a problem, I understand there have been issues to do with the location of the station. I spoke to the Garda Commissioner about the matter after the Deputy had raised it with me. The offices used by gardaí in the Tallaght complex were previously occupied by the energy regulator. Despite what the Deputy says, the Garda Síochána does not and never has used any accommodation in the Plaza Hotel.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is provided in the Plaza Hotel complex.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is provided in the complex, not the hotel. It is a little disingenuous to suggest gardaí operate from a hotel; they are based in offices. The vacated offices leased by the OPW were available and allocated to gardaí in Tallaght to provide additional office accommodation to free up space at the station for operational purposes. They are using as best they can the additional office space.

The Deputy asked me to specify where the extra 1,300 prison spaces had been created since 1997. They are in Castlerea, the Midlands Prison, Cloverhill, the Dochas centre and a refurbished wing in Limerick Prison. Most recently——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Does the Minister have the numbers for each area?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, I do. There are 28 in Castlerea, 85 in the Dochas centre, 431 in Cloverhill, 470 in the Midlands Prison, 40 in Shelton Abbey and 60 in Loughan House, giving a total of 1,314. In more recent times another 30 spaces have been made available in Shelton Abbey and 40 in Loughan House. This is a political point which I have to make. During the time——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I know it pains the Minister.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

During the time the Deputy was on the high chair in the Cabinet he——

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The money was made available for the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise which was opened by the then Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, in the summer of 1997. The plaque is on the wall. The Minister knows who made the money available. He is attempting to rewrite something.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I can exclude Deputy Flanagan, but Deputy Rabbitte was at the Cabinet table.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Minister will not go home happy unless he makes this point.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

He was on the baby seat at the Cabinet table, but while he was there, he did not say a word when the Government decided to suspend the prison building programme. That Government did not provide one space.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

When was the Midlands Prison opened? It is written in front of the Minister; he should read it out.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is like a ship; one cannot easily restart it. In 1997 we had to build all of those prisons. A question was asked about the extra 400 spaces provided.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

It is disgraceful to debate that point in the context of——

Chairman

The Minister was asked a question.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Rabbitte raised it; what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. This week 100 spaces will be opened in Castlerea Prison. Portlaoise Prison will have 150 in the new C Block at the end of July. In Wheatfield Prison there will be another 150 in mid-October this year; the fit-out began yesterday and will take approximately four months to complete. In Castlerea Prison a new remand block is ready for occupation.

The Equality Authority has a budget of €3.33 million. The board has expressed complete confidence that it will be able to fulfil the core functions of the Equality Authority as laid down in the legislation with that budget. I have met the board members. I do not know if the Deputy has met them. I suggest that both Deputies meet them and at least hear their version——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Should we go to Roscrea or to Harcourt Street?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Its head office is not too far from here.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The head office is in Roscrea.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Deputies should meet with them and receive a slightly more objective account than some of the nonsense we have had to read in the newspapers because they are working well.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Some of those accounts emanated from the Minister's colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Chairman

The Deputy will have a chance to speak later on.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

In fairness to the people who have remained on the board, who had misgivings because they were reading the newspapers, they are more than happy. They deserve great credit. People like the Deputies should give them the opportunity to put their side of the story.

I recently gave figures in the Dáil for Garda retirements. I will come back to that question in a second.

There has already been an 8% reduction in the fees for the criminal legal aid scheme. I rescinded a previously agreed increase of 2.5% from September 2008 as well. The professional bodies representing these people are not happy but that is the way it is and they have been informed that there will be a cut of 8% across the board in respect of fees for criminal legal aid, free legal aid——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Who funds the Free Legal Aid Centres?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

We fund the Legal Aid Board. Does the Deputy mean the NGOs? My Department and the Department of Social and Family Affairs fund the Free Legal Aid Centres. That is not the Legal Aid Board.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

They are NGOs but they are funded by the State.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

They are not State employees. The Legal Aid Board offices are funded directly by the State. They are manned by solicitors employed by the Legal Aid Board.

In respect of Garda retirements, in the first five months of this year, 251 members left the force. Of these, 223 were voluntary retirements and the remainder left for other reasons. We cannot say what level of retirement will take place over the year but we are keeping a close eye on this process. While some people are getting out for various reasons connected with the expectations about public sector numbers, the fact that we increased the retirement age in 2006 by three years is feeding into more retirements than would normally be the case. It was anticipated before any moratorium that by now there would be more retirements for a three-year period than would have been the case three or four years ago.

The property regulatory authority legislation covers the regulation of letting agents and auctioneers and is not connected with the land law and conveyancing legislation.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The new systems in that Bill do not carry a cost.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

What new systems?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Electronic mapping and e-conveyancing, for example.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

They are two different organisations. The National Property Services Regulatory Authority regulates auctioneers and letting agents. The Property Registration Authority, the former Land Registry, is in situ and there is no change. I understood the Deputy to be speaking about the National Property Services Regulatory Authority. There is no connection between land law and conveyancing. The proposed legislation, which is coming up to Report Stage, will not have a huge impact on the Property Registration Authority. That authority has changed dramatically since I was a practising solicitor. It has had a huge investment in recent years and extra staff due to the Celtic tiger and the level of property transactions. Given that the level of transactions has reduced considerably it will not need as much staff and resources as heretofore.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

It is self-financing.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is supposed to be but we have to keep a close eye on whether it breaks even.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Does that mean it is to be raided?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Under subhead H2, Probation Service, will the Minister explain the reduction of €2 million?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The reduction was in the administrative expenses of the probation service where there has been a cut.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

That is a critical service. What is being cut?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I understand the computer investment programme is being cut. It had a major computer programme in recent years which is not now necessary. It is completed.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Does the Minister have information on outstanding litigation against the Department or against staff in the Department? If he does not have that information, perhaps he can let us have a note on the matter?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

What does Deputy Rabbitte mean? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be joined in a huge number of actions against the State.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I am more interested in outstanding litigation against officials in the Department or any officials in the Department against whom there is outstanding litigation.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Officials would not be sued.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I do not know, I am asking the Minister.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be sued. In what context are they being sued?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I do not know. I was asked to ask the question to take advantage of the fact that the Minister is present.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Normally, the Minister is vicariously responsible for any wrongdoing of an official working in his or her capacity, so the individual would not be sued or even joined to the action. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Attorney General would be sued for any negligence or wrongdoing. I have no information on the issue here. That is not to say there are not dozens of cases where the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be joined to an action as would the Attorney General.

Chairman

I call Deputy Connick.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

If Deputy Rabbitte could be more specific on the context it would help.

Deputy Seán Connick

I welcome the Minister and his officials and avail of the opportunity to compliment him on the job he is doing in the justice area at this difficult economic time. Unlike what the Opposition spokespersons have said there is much to be welcomed in the Estimates, in particular, the roll-out of digital radio, the protection of the CAB and the youth justice service programme, to name but a few things.

On the Garda Síochána Vote, what is the impact of the Corrib gas field debacle? How is it funded in terms of Garda overtime? Is there a contingency fund in place to deal with the difficulties being faced there, in light of the fact that demonstrations have increased in recent months? What will be the impact of an increase in activity at the Corrib gasfield for the remainder of the year? Will the Minister confirm whether it is intended to proceed with work at Thornton Hall or give us an estimate of the starting date? Will it be some time in 2010 or 2011?

In regard to monitoring the costs of the Courts Service, as all politics is local, I will start with my home town, New Ross, where the courthouse has fallen into disrepair. In recent months we were informed that the courthouse would be refurbished. In the meantime, like many court services around the country, we are renting the GAA complex in New Ross. Yesterday I met a delegation of legal representatives in the town who informed me that the renting of the GAA complex would cease at the end of August and that the court service for New Ross would move to Wexford. Who monitors the cost of this? Has the cost of transferring the operation to Wexford been looked at in terms of Garda numbers, overtime and the cost of transferring the court services? It will be much more costly to move to Wexford than to continue to rent the local GAA complex. In that context — I welcome the fact that the Minister mentioned Gorey — will the programme of courthouse refurbishment continue into next year or will there be a roll-back?

Subhead A6 shows an increase in the cost of leases of almost €1 million, a 20% increase. Given that we are reducing costs everywhere by 8%, what is happening in that area such that costs seem to be increasing by 20%?

I welcome the improvements made in the asylum process. The waiting time has been reduced. There are approximately 60 asylum seekers in my home town who are being provided for, some of whom have been there more than three years, some for up to four or five years. Has the Department considered increasing staff numbers to deal with asylum cases? Has it conducted a cost benefit analysis of speeding up the time it takes to deal with these cases as opposed to providing for the asylum seekers in the country over longer periods of time?

I would appreciate it if the Minister addressed these questions.

Chairman

Before I call the Minister, I would like to throw in a question regarding courthouses. There has been a proposal in regard to the courthouse in Waterford which is now totally inadequate, given the number of court sittings held there. I understand the proposal is finding favour. Will the Minister give an indication of when it might receive approval?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Regarding the Garda Vote and the impact of the Corrib gas issue, in the past three years it has cost €12 million in Garda overtime payments. That is €12 million the Garda would like to spend elsewhere. While people are entitled to protest peacefully, given what has happened in recent times, it is necessary to maintain a substantial Garda presence there at all times. I appeal to the people protesting to do so in a way that they will not break the law or prevent others, the many employees of the contractors, from going about their legitimate business. The sum of €12 million is a sizeable amount and from what we have seen in the past week or so, it does not seem that the protests are abating. That will obviously have an impact on the Garda overtime budget elsewhere. That is the reality, given that the Garda must provide a policing service to allow people to go about their day-to-day business.

Regarding Thornton Hall, I expect I will revert to the Government in the coming weeks, possibly in the next fortnight, with an indication of how we should proceed. We are in discussions with the Department of Finance on the matter and my overall goal is to get the best value for the taxpayer.

Regarding New Ross and Enniscorthy courthouses, project managers and design teams have been appointed and plans have been prepared. The Part 9 planning process will be undertaken but construction will not commence in either case in 2009 due to budgetary constraints. This area is the responsibility of the Courts Service and, under the Courts Service Act 1998, through which it was established, it decides on the designation, refurbishment and building of courthouses around the country. Neither I nor the Oireachtas have any say in these matters; we passed the legislation and the Courts Service must make decisions based on the budget it receives. Its budget this year is less than that of last year but there has been a substantial investment in courthouses in recent years.

In answer to the question on Waterford courthouse, consultations on accommodation requirements have commenced locally and the OPW has appointed an in-house architect to the project, which will reduce costs. Planning will now commence on the project.

Deputy Seán Connick

Before the Minister moves on, may I raise a point on the Courts Service running the courts? The Courts Service is not responsible for Garda overtime or the transfer of the court in question so these costs impact on the Department, rather than the Courts Service.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, that is so.

Deputy Seán Connick

In terms of monitoring costs, moving a whole Courts Service office——

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Courts Service will have responsibility because it has its own Accounting Officer, as does the Irish Prison Service. We have overall responsibility for the Votes and where savings can be made we will force savings on them. If the Deputy has any proposal in this regard I will be happy to hear it.

Deputy Seán Connick

I will revert to the Minister on this and I thank him.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

On the lease of Phoenix House, courthouse lease allocations have been reduced by 17% compared to last year's budget. The Deputy is comparing the 2009 budget to the expenditure, rather than last year's budget allocation.

Regarding asylum centres, there are 740 members of staff in the immigration system and many have been reassigned from the asylum process to other areas with backlogs, such as citizenship applications and so on. A major effort has been made to fast-track applications for citizenship and immigration. The citizenship office was decentralised to Tipperary and this has worked well; we are catching up on the backlog in citizenship applications.

Regarding immigration and visas, we need one simple procedure, which does not exist at the moment due to the plethora of legislation. Hopefully the new legislation will free things up and prevent people from having to re-enter the system. As we said before, 60% of judicial reviews relate to asylum applications but under the new Bill the opportunity to take a judicial review at every twist and turn will be lessened.

Chairman

I realise members are anxious to attend the Order of Business in the Dáil; are there any brief final questions?

Deputy Denis Naughten

The Minister mentioned earlier that changes being implemented in IT will enable speedier processing of immigration asylum or other visa applications. Could the Minister elaborate on the impact this will have, particularly in the asylum area which, over the past ten years, has cost us €507 per minute? I agree with Deputy Connick that there would be a cost benefit from allocating additional resources in this area to deal expeditiously with applications.

Apart from the judicial reviews taking place in the courts, it is crucially important to try to expedite applications for leave to remain on humanitarian grounds. It seems to be taking forever to make decisions on these and the taxpayer must foot the bill. In response to Deputy Connick the Minister mentioned that there are currently 740 staff within the system. The Minister knows what question I am going to ask as this is the third Estimates debate at which I have asked it and I am still awaiting a response. I would like to know the number of vacant posts in that area. I hope that on this occasion the Minister can furnish the figures, given that I asked for them at the debate on the Estimates last year and also at the debate on the Supplementary Estimates last December. I was given a commitment on both occasions that I would be furnished with the figures and I am still waiting for them. I presume the Minister has those to hand today.

While on the issue of figures, could the Minister give an indication of the number of people currently in the queue within the citizenship system and the processing time? Last December the processing time was 23 months, with 17,000 people within the system at that stage. Returning to a point made by Deputy Connick, could the Minister indicate the number of people currently within the direct provision system of the asylum process? There has been a significant fall in the number of new applications being received by the Department but there are inordinate delays in dealing with those applications and the new immigration Bill will not deal with the applications already received within the system. Action needs to be taken to expedite those applications and the leave to remain applications subsequent to all other avenues being closed off.

On subhead D3, the European Refugee Fund, could the Minister explain the reason for the significant increase on the 2008 outturn compared to the Estimate for the current year? Could he elaborate on where he envisages savings being made under subhead D4, asylum seekers accommodation? This is welcome. I am aware the Department is making provision for closing down some of the facilities around the country. Perhaps he could elaborate on how savings can be made by reducing facilities as opposed to reducing the numbers within the system. I again flag the issue of inappropriate accommodation for juveniles whereby separated and unaccompanied children arriving here are housed in grossly inappropriate HSE hostel accommodation.

The Minister referred to the probation service and the Irish youth justice service. We all agree that more investment is needed in that area. From a parochial viewpoint, could the Minister tell us the up-to-date position with regard to the reopening of Harristown House at the Castlerea Prison complex? The Minister also mentioned the complaints about the TETRA system which is now being rolled out. What is the current timetable for the completion of the roll-out of the TETRA system? I know the process is now starting but it seems to be long drawn out.

Committee members have raised a number of questions on Garda stations and mine relates to Clonark in County Roscommon. A new sub-district has been established due to the re-drawing of the divisions — counties Roscommon and Longford have come together. However, there is no Garda station in this area and the OPW has been in discussions in this regard.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Where is the Deputy referring to?

Deputy Denis Naughten

Clonark in south County Roscommon. If the Minister does not have the information to hand he can come back to me later.

The Minister responded to Deputy Rabbitte's question on the Property Registration Authority but when does he expect decentralisation to be completed? He said it is likely the number of staff members in the authority will be reduced due to the fall in demand for its services. How many people is the Minister talking about? I do not think the Taoiseach was aware of this when he turned the sod on the new facility in Roscommon town last month; there was no mention of a reduction in staff numbers.

In fairness to the Property Registration Authority, the computerisation and additional resources that have been put in place in recent years have expedited many cases and this should be acknowledged. However, surely it makes sense, now that the number of applications submitted has fallen, that staff of the authority should complete the computerisation and deal with related outstanding issues. This would mean the system will run efficiently in future. Historically, the difficulty with the Land Registry was that files were all paper files and this meant applications took some time to process.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

If a person was to apply for asylum today he or she would have a decision in two weeks; things have changed dramatically. The problem is, applicants run to a solicitor and go through a long-winded process that they are entitled to utilise under existing legislation. The new Bill will provide a simple, one-step procedure that will quicken decisions dramatically. There are 7,000 people in Ireland in accommodation for asylum seekers. This is the case because they insist on prolonging their applications. In the vast majority of cases they are refused because their cases are not deemed satisfactory.

Deputy Denis Naughten

How many people are awaiting leave to remain decisions?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not have those figures. On naturalisation——

Deputy Denis Naughten

What are the waiting times for leave to remain applications?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Some 1,300 naturalisation certificates were issued in 2000 — 1,500 were issued in 2007 and 3,117 in 2008. This indicates a significant increase in the number of certificates issued and shows that the creation of the decentralised citizenship office in Tipperary with its new computers has brought about change.

The Harristown issue has been examined by my Department, in conjunction with the Probation Service, and my priority is to ensure clients of the Probation Service are provided with the range of facilities they need with regard to addiction issues. We must balance the availability of relevant experience from other parties with that which is available within the Probation Service and then decide how best to meet the needs of clients in the most efficient and cost-effective manner, having regard to current budgetary circumstances.

I said earlier that TETRA will be rolled out over a two-year period. It went live today in the Dublin metropolitan district and is working well. It will be rolled out to the eastern region. I will have my officials pass on the information on Clonark Garda station.

Some 200 people are scheduled to go to Roscommon as part of the decentralisation programme. I am delighted the Deputy is a great fan of decentralisation, given that, at a global level, his party was not too complimentary about our proposals in that respect.

On the European Refugee Fund, only €849,000 was spent in 2008 from a budget of €2.5 million. The budget for this year of €2.3 million will be managed carefully and redirected to other priority areas, if needed.

In regard to leave to remain applications granted under section 3(6) of the Immigration Act 1999, the figures are dramatic. Since 2001 a total of 3,035 people have been granted leave to remain. In 2008 there were 1,274; in 2007, 860 and in 2006, 216. There has been a big increase in the numbers granted leave to remain.

Deputy Denis Naughten

It would be great if I could get some answers from the Minister. Has he any idea when Harristown House will be opened, given that there was a commitment that it would be open by now? Is it not the case that at the current rate of processing it will take approximately five years to process the applications in hand? A substantial number of people, approximately 7,000, who fall within the direct provision service are the subject of leave to remain applications in hand. Would it not make sense to expedite decisions on these applications one way or the other rather than have the taxpayer foot significant bills in that regard?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The fact is the vast majority in asylum seeker accommodation are there because they take challenges to the process. It has nothing to do with the small proportion applying for leave to remain. In regard to the granting of leave to remain, the Department must do some very significant checks to find out whether the stories put forward stack up. It must be said that in many cases they do not.

Deputy Denis Naughten

That being the case, they should be dealt with expeditiously. There are approximately 1,600 reviews before the courts.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

We can deal with all these cases expeditiously. Based on the initial information given in most cases, the decision would be to refuse them. In fairness, our people must go through due process because they could be subject to legal challenge. Therefore, they go through cases diligently. It is not a matter of clocking up decisions quickly. Each case must be dealt with on its own merits.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Would it not make sense to provide resources to deal with many more cases?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

We have only so much in resources.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Given the Minister's comments about the Property Registration Authority, is he still committed to decentralising 200 staff?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I have indicated that is the intention. I hope that when the Deputy's party colleagues are criticising the decentralisation project, he will defend it.

Deputy Denis Naughten

My views are on record. All the Minister has to do is read them.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Fine Gael Deputies are speaking out of both sides of their mouths on the issue.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Our objection was not to decentralisation but to the manner in which it had been announced and was being rolled out.

(Interruptions).

Chairman

The debate on the Estimates has concluded.