Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Wednesday, 15 Sep 1993

Business of Select Committee.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

On a point of order, before we resume the debate on the Bill I want a ruling as to how this committee is to work. As you Chairman, know, you have been in touch with me quite a few times since this committee was formed and I have assured you at all stages of co-operation from Fine Gael. You mentioned yesterday that you told me there would be a two day meeting — that was at a golf outing in Rosslare at the end of August. There was nothing definite about it; I heard nothing officially.

I received a phone call from a civil servant on Friday morning about sitting until 7 o'clock. I said that 7 o'clock was too late because people would be going for trains. I received a phone call about an hour later from the same person saying that the Minister wanted the committee to sit today and I said that I did not think there was enough notice but to wait and we would see whether or not it was possible. Yesterday, when I discovered that people had made other arrangements, I informed you that it was not suitable and you asked me to agree to meet from 12 noon to 2 p.m. Despite the fact that it did not suit us, we agreed to meet from 12 noon to 2 p.m. Then it seems that the Minister overruled everything.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn)

I did not do any such thing.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

She decided — because she has a diary and events to keep and the rest of us have not — that she was going to overrule the whole committee by shouting "agreed" here to something which she had no right to agree. The committee should be agreeing on a definite date.

Deputy Callely is paid to convene this committee and to contact me as one of the people who should be contacted. I heard nothing from anybody and this committee will not run as smoothly as you have requested because people who got carried away last evening might find themselves pale before this committee finishes. I was flabbergasted at the carry on last evening.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

May I clarify something, Chairman? As I understand the way committees work, the Minister does not have a say in when the committee sits, how often it sits, or for how long it sits. The committee makes its decision and that is communicated to the Minister. That is what happened in this instance.

I regret that I was informed about the sittings and others were not, but it is not for me, Mr.Chairman, nor I understand is it for you, to inform people when the committee is sitting. I was delighted to clear my diary and be available for the committee because all summer I was reading comment about this Bill in the national newspapers. Many members of this committee were vociferous during the summer about the urgency of the Bill, its important provisions and how we were obliged to protect civil liberties. I agree with that and that is why, as I said yesterday, I am prepared to make myself available to this Committeee at any time provided it does not interfere with Government business.

Miss Harney

I was abroad until late Monday night so I was not aware yesterday whether my party had been contacted about a two-day meeting. We were not contacted. I have no problem with the meeting although I have an engagement at 1 o'clock so I will be obliged to leave early. However, as a matter of courtesy to Members, in the first instance, and, secondly, if we want this committee to run smoothly parties should be contacted in relation to meetings so that we can clear our diaries and know where we stand. I did not raise this yesterday because I had been away and I thought that perhaps somebody else in my party had been contacted about the two-day meeting. Nobody was and I have to agree with Deputy Browne.

It is not the Minister's fault. I do not know whose fault it is as I am not quite sure what the procedure is. I know Deputy Callely is a convener but whether he is a convener just for the Government side or for the entire committee is not clear to me. If we want this committee to function effectively and if we want to be courteous to Members and to co-operate with each other — and there is great co-operation in relation to the amendments and the Minister's attitude — we should be consulted about the times and dates of meetings.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I regret that the Minister seeks to introduce a political point to the question raised by Deputy Browne. People have been vociferous about this Bill because people are paid to be vociferous about this Bill. It is my job as an elected representative to express my concerns about this Bill. If the Minister cannot take the constructive criticism of the main Opposition spokesman and other spokespeople on justice, I do not know what the Minister is doing as a Minister. If I made some personal comments about the Minister I would understand her being upset but my comments were about this Bill.

Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn

I am not upset.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Well, I am upset. I am upset this morning about the behaviour of the Minister yesterday and in addition I ask the Chairman to ensure that nobody other than politicians wanders about this House talking to Fianna Fáil TDs and Chairman. I am upset by the way the meeting yesterday was conducted. Yesterday, I did not challenge a vote on any section. I sought to co-operate and to approach the Bill in a conciliatory manner in order to get it through in an amended fashion. I could have called quorums and sought votes all day. If the Minister wants to do her business that way we will treat her in kind.

I had two important engagements this morning, one of them of a very important personal nature and no concern was expressed about that, nobody bothered to take my diary into account. The Minister's diary was cleared. I would have been happy to sit until midnight last night and to sit all day today and again tomorrow if notice had been given last week.

I am not conceding the right of anybody to walk in here and walk over the rest of us and I ask you, Chairman, not to allow people to wander around the Chamber talking to people. This is Parliament. Parliament must conduct itself within certain rules and with certain courtesies. I was courteous to the Government side yesterday in allowing this Bill through without challenge. If the House wants me to call for quorums all day and challenge a vote on everything, fine. We will see how much business we get through. I do not want to approach it that way, Chairman, but nobody will walk over our right to conduct our affairs either.

Mr. Harte

I wish to express my concern also. I have been in this House for a long time and I am always notified when to attend the Dáil. It was guess work over the last couple of days to know what hours and on what days the House was sitting.

If the Government parties are going to take the committee system seriously it is a terrible reflection on them that at 10.10 a.m. this morning there were only some three members of the Government side in the House. The committee would have collapsed but for the fact that an SOS was sent out to get more Members in.

Mr. M. Ahern

That is wrong anyway.

Mr. Harte

I know it is difficult because of traffic and other reasons. The Members who are here have made an effort but you can see how many Government Members are not here. I hope the committee system operates well; it is a good innovation and it will serve the public and Dáil Éireann well, but it can only do so if we have co-operation and understanding and no aggression.

I appeal to Government members to listen to spokesmen from this side of the House. We are few in number but we have views to express and they should be listened to with courtesy and attention.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

As one of the Government backbenchers I wish to say that, irrespective of what happened yesterday evening it is our intention to be as constructive and objective as possible. I will let the Minister speak for herself.

If any rancour developed yesterday evening it was not one-sided. Sentiments were expressed on both sides which were, perhaps, provocative. This committee has worked well up to recently. It has been constructive and objective in its approach to the issues and Bills that have come before it. We can all play our part in continuing that process and promoting balanced, fair and constructive debate at its future meetings.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

The Minister said she had no part to play in this. That is the position: the Minister cannot decide when we hold our meetings. However, when I had agreed under protest to meet from 12 noon to 2 p.m., although it did not suit because Deputy Mitchell had to rush back from an 11.30 a.m. appointment, the Minister agreed to a 10 a.m. start even though she had no right to agree to anything. The Minister should accept what we decide.

I want to know who overruled the agreement. There is no point in treating me as a fool because I will not be treated as a fool. If I give my word that we will meet at some time, we meet at that time. I do not want someone else to overrule the arrangement. Deputy Fitzgerald is very kind in saying how helpful he would be. I would expect him to be helpful but I do not except him to shout at us and ignore the fact that we are not in a position to meet at 10 o'clock.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

You can have it one way or the other now, Chairman, suit yourself.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

I compliment Deputy Kemmy; at least he was reasonable.

Mr. M. Ahern

Deputy Kemmy is always reasonable.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

He made a suggestion when he saw the position we were in. As it happened, the compromise did not make any difference but the committee cannot ignore somebody who cannot be present for a valid reason and insist on a time because there are sufficient members to support it. That is not the way to do business.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I ask Members to put themselves in my position as main Opposition spokesman on Justice in this regard. Yesterday, I could have challenged votes all day and I could do it all day today or call a quorum every time there are not 11 people in this Chamber. Suppose I do not do that and at 5 p.m. today the committee tramples over my rights again? What guarantee have I that it will not happen again? Fool me once, fool me twice.

Mr. Costello

How could sheep do that?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Chairman, if that is the way you want to do business then we have no alternative but to behave in that way. We cannot allow people to treat us the way we were treated yesterday.

There was discussion with Deputy Browne yesterday about the meetings for today. We had no notice of a meeting today and some of our Members have gone home without knowing about this meeting. However, we said we would fit in a couple of hours to make progress on the Bill and the time was made 10 a.m. despite the fact that I had two important appointments this morning. Had I received notice I would have cancelled those appointments. We could hold up the committee on this section all day by calling quorums but we do not want to do business that way. We expect our rights to be respected, Chairman. Let nobody think they can get away with such behaviour.

Mr. E. Ryan

Obviously, there was a mix-up yesterday evening. I take on board what Deputy Mitchell is saying regarding the fact that he did not push any votes and that the whole tone of the committee has been good up to now. I would not like to see it change and the whole thing break down. Some people heard there was a meeting and others heard nothing. There was confusion. Let us all agree that there was a mistake made yesterday. Nobody wants to push anyone else, so we will start afresh this morning. Deputy Mitchell can understand; he was Lord Mayor of Dublin. He realises what it is like when you have a busy schedule, as the Minister does.

Mr. G. Mitchell

As I do, I have a busy schedule and I do not have anybody driving me around——

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

We all have busy schedules. The Deputy does not have a monopoly on busy schedules.

Mr. E. Ryan

We all have busy schedules. Let me finish.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I have a busy schedule and I expect notice. I do not care——

Chairman

Could I have a small bit of order, please? We have had a fair run on this now. I want to——

Mr. E. Ryan

Chairman, he knows well when he was Lord Mayor that he had a very busy diary, as the Minister does. If he left his diary open for a day or two as Lord Mayor he would expect that the meeting goes on and that is what the Minister expects and thought was going to happen. We have to give some space to the Minister, who has a much busier schedule than any of us. We are all busy but the Minister's schedule is far busier.

Mr. G. Mitchell

We expect notice.

Mr. E. Ryan

Also, Chairman——

Chairman

I am having no further discussion. I put it to the meeting yesterday, Deputy Browne, that we meet at 12 o'clock. It came from the floor, not from the Minister, that the time was not suitable, different speakers from different parties.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

You came to me.

Chairman

I agreed with you and I am admitting that because I was trying to be helpful to the committee to maximise the time. We had a problem of availability of facilities to have meetings. I make a strong appeal here that we do our business from now on and give proper notice. From now on we should agree that we meet next week, one day, two days or whatever. Let us get on with the business and put yesterday behind us and ensure that we do not have a repeat of it. There were certain misunderstandings which different people may be responsible for, but that is neither here nor there. I make a strong appeal that we get on with the business of this morning. Could we agree on the meetings next week, please? Do we meet one or two days?

Mr. G. Mitchell

Whatever time we meet at, could I suggest that the notice specify at what time the House will adjourn as the notice for the Dáil does?

Chairman

Will we take it or agree first today that we adjourn at one o'clock?

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Could you clarify who arranges the meetings?

Chairman

The meetings are arranged by the convenors. I have no function in arranging the meetings. I appeal to the convenors of the parties to get together and decide. I am suggesting now that we fix our meetings for next week to give plenty of notice to the Members.

First, can we finalise the time we are finishing today? Would one o'clock suit Members?

Mr. Callely

There are some matters that require clarification in relation to the meeting today. Deputy Ryan has put it on the record that it was the committee that agreed to meet this morning and so it was. I was unaware as Government convenor. I had not been contacted, and I fully appreciate and understand the points raised by Deputy Browne and Deputy Mitchell. It is my job as Government convenor to try to accommodate everybody and that is what I will endeavour to do. Every Member of this House, including the various Departments that we will deal with, can be assured of my full co-operation to try to accommodate as much as possible everybody to attend meetings.

I put it to this committee that by midday today the Opposition convenor, Deputy Browne, and myself will come back and inform this committee of the agreement between the convenors of our times for sitting for next week, allowing for ample opportunity to be given to each and every Member by post of the proposed sittings and proposed adjournments. That would get the general agreement of all members of the committee.

Mr. Gilmore

I found myself here yesterday morning being told by the Chairman that it was intended to adjourn the meeting at 5.30 p.m. yesterday evening. I did not object to that at the time because I did not wish to be difficult, but as it happened I was unable to be here right until the end of the meeting yesterday evening. Consequently, the first I heard that the committee was meeting again today was at about 9.50 a.m. this morning when I received a telephone call from my office. Quite frankly, one would not run a tiddly-winks club by calling meetings like that. In my opinion that is no way to arrange meetings for a committee of the Legislature dealing with serious business. I ask — I do not know whether yourself as chairperson of the committee or Deputy Callely as the convenor is in a position to answer — are there not Standing Orders which require a certain amount of notice to be given to Members of the convening of meetings? Every Member of this committee is a member of other committees of the House or local authorities or health boards or whatever, a wide range of commitments as public representatives. We cannot do business by meetings being called on this kind of ad hoc basis. What is the Standing Order? What is the rule dealing with the notification of meetings? When we are arranging meetings in the future they should be arranged with reasonable notice so that Members can arrange their diaries and can be here for the full duration of the meetings.

Miss Flaherty

Just by way of preventing further difficulties for Members, I am substituting today but I am a Member of another committee. I know already for next Monday that apart from the meeting in the morning — I am just saying this to the convenor — there are at least two other meetings organised for that afternoon. Monday is pretty crowded, so it is a day that might cause problems.

Chairman

The convenors will get together, work it out and come back to us before we finish today at one o'clock and we will agree.

Miss Harney

I do not want to prolong this discussion but I am a member of another committee for the purpose of a particular Bill and, unlike this committee, I knew about two months ago when the meetings were to be held last week. I knew two weeks ago that there would be meetings next week. Everybody is notified by letter and a telephone call and that is the way we have to run this committee also.

Chairman

Hopefully we will not have a repeat of yesterday. It is up to the committee. There is no Standing Order that says so many days' notice has to be given. It is a matter for the committees and I hope, as I said, it will be done. We have had a fair discussion with the convenors and from now on we will not have a repetition of yesterday. There will be proper notice and proper communication and we will get on with our business.

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 1993: Committee Stage (Resumed).