Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1995

Vote 33 — Equality and Law Reform

(Revised Estimate).

Chairman

I formally welcome the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, to this committee. I also extend a welcome to the Secretary of that Department, Mr. Bernard McDonagh, and the other officials.

The business before this committee is the revised Estimate, Vote 33, for the Department of Equality and Law Reform. The Department is seeking the sum of £12,299,000 for the year. This represents a 38 per cent increase on the 1994 outturn of £8,896,000. I should point out, however, that the 1994 outturn was approximately 16 per cent less than the Estimate approved by Dáil Éireann for that year. While this Estimate represents one of the smaller departmental Estimates, significant sums of public money are nonetheless involved and many important policy issues and areas are encompassed by the individual subheads. It is, therefore, appropriate that we should give it some detailed consideration this morning.

Due to the demand on room space from other committees, we must conclude our discussions by 2,30 p.m. at the latest. It may be possible, with the co-operation of all the Members, to bring our discussions to a conclusion at a somewhat earlier time. I am entirely in the hands of the committee as far as this is concerned.

I propose that the meeting shall commence with opening statements of the Minister for approximately 15 minutes, followed by Deputy Woods for Fianna Fáil and Deputy Keogh for the Progressive Democrats and the Independents. This will take approximately an hour. I then suggest that the committee should consider the various subheads individually with the exception of subhead A, dealing with administration, which should be considered together for convenience. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I look forward to a constructive and open debate on the matters involved.

Minister for Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Taylor)

This is the third year in which I have moved the Estimates for my Department. In a relatively short space of time, the Department of Equality and Law Reform has established itself in the mainstream of Government Departments and has played its part effectively in bringing about far reaching progressive changes to the social life of this country.

The Government's manifesto for equality, which I outlined in considerable detail at the beginning of this year, has the full and unqualified support of all the parties in Government and, I believe, most people outside Government. Our programme is about building an equal and just society. What we in the Department of Equality and Law Reform began in 1993 is being, and will continue to be, pursued for the full lifetime of the present Dáil. The main trust of my Department's policies continues to be the enactment of legislation which supports the family and measures which will assist families in dealing with the various problems they face in a modern age.

The legislative focus of my Department at present is the implementation of a very comprehensive programme of work in relation to the problem of marriage breakdown. Undoubtedly, divorce is the subject which is gaining most publicity, but it is just one of many issues which are being addressed in the context of marriage breakdown by my Department. Matters which have considerable merit in their own right and which are to the forefront at present are the following: The Family Law Bill, 1994, is currently awaiting Committee Stage in the Seanad, having been passed by the Dáil. That Bill raises the age of marriage from 16 to 18 years. It gives new powers to the courts to protect the pension rights of spouses who separate and also gives new powers to the courts in support of dependent spouses and children where a foreign decree of divorce is recognised as valid in the State. The power of the courts to enforce orders for maintenance of spouses by way of attachment of earnings is being strengthened so as to put a dependent spouse in a stronger position than heretofore. The Circuit Court will for the first time have jurisdiction to deal with cases of nullity of marriage. These are substantial measures in their own right and demonstrate a commitment to ensure that everything possible is being done to update our laws in relation to marriage breakdown.

The Civil Legal Aid Bill, at present awaiting Report Stage in the Seanad, puts the Legal Aid Board on a statutory footing and removes any possible doubt about the standing of that scheme as a permanent service which must be available to persons of modest means who find it necessary to seek legal advice or representation in civil law matters, including family law.

The Domestic Violence Bill will be published very shortly. It will update existing legislation on barring orders, which is confined to spouses and their children, and extend the barring orders procedure to a wider class of persons, including cohabitants. It will also strengthen the powers of arrest of gardaí in cases of domestic violence.

I am glad to report progress on the implementation of further phases of development for the Legal Aid Board, the Family Mediation Service and counselling services on the basis of the substantial Exchequer funding for those services. There will be an opportunity to discuss the details of expenditure in relation to those areas later. Some fundamental facts are, however, worth noting at this stage. In 1994 the number of law centres increased from 16 to 22 and in 1995 they will increase further to 30. Since 1993 staff numbers have increased from 99 to 204. The number of solicitor staff has increased from 39 to 75. The number of support staff, that is to say those in the administrative grades, increased from 60 to 129. The Exchequer funding in 1992 was £2.7 million and in 1995 it is £6.2 million. By any standards these are extraordinary increases and they have assisted a major development of the services of the Legal Aid Board. The developments are aimed at ensuring that no person who is entitled to legal aid is denied it within a reasonable time and that he or she should not have to travel a long distance to obtain it.

A measure of the success of the extra funding of the board is indicated to a large extent by the reduction in waiting lists in the various law centres. In early 1993 the waiting period in half of the board's centres was between one month and seven months; in half of the board's centres the waiting period is now one month or less. In the other half of the centres, the waiting period in 1993 ranged between eight months and 14 months; now, in all but one of that other half of the centres, the waiting period ranges between three and seven months.

The measures which I have mentioned concern in one way or another access to justice. As a concept that involves a system, for example, under which persons may be legally aided, but it also involves a system under which the courts have jurisdiction and powers to deal adequately with a person's grievances. The concept of access to justice is one which heavily influences the programme of my Department.

However, I am anxious to ensure that where persons have problems, particularly in the context of marriage breakdown, they will not automatically think in terms of a court action. There are many situations where marriage problems may be resolved by counselling and I am glad to say that in this country we have very skilled counselling services available from voluntary organisations such as Accord — formerly the Catholic Marriage Advisory Council — and Marriage Counselling Service. In 1994 I provided a total funding of £750,000 for those organisations — an increase of 150 per cent on the 1993 funding — and this year the funding will be of similar high level. A total of 58 organisations are benefiting from Exchequer funding this year.

In a situation where couples can agree the terms of their separation, the Family Mediation Service is available free of charge to help parties to settle those terms. The 1995 Estimates provide funding of £300,000, the same figure as in 1994, which was an increase of over 100 per cent on the previous year.

The Child Abduction Authority in my Department continues to provide an excellent service helping parents in very traumatic situations where their children have been abducted into or out of the State by the other parent. The authority acts under the provisions of two international conventions on the matter. Those conventions are examples of what international co-operation can achieve in a given area. New cases dealt with by our authority in 1994 totalled 90, involving 151 children, and this was an increase of 23 per cent over the 1993 figures.

Other very important work has been carried out by the Department in recent times. The Occupiers' Liability Bill, 1994, was passed by the Seanad last week and is now before the Dáil with some Seanad amendments. The Bill abolished the common law rules governing the liability of occupiers for injuries to entrants on their property and puts this branch of the law on a clear and statutory basis. The Bill is designed to facilitate the use of land for recreational activities and has also been welcomed by the main farming organisations.

Chairman

My presence is required elsewhere for approximately ten minutes. Is it agreed that Deputy Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) will take the Chair)? Agreed.

Deputy Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) took the Chair.

Mr. Taylor

In the very near future I propose to publish a Bill to update the law in relation to powers of attorney. This will be an important social measure because it will facilitate the management of the affairs of elderly people who have become, or are becoming, senile. A difficulty with the present system of powers of attorney is that when the donor of that power becomes mentally incapable, the power is automatically revoked, at a time when the power is most needed. The donor can, of course, be made a ward of court but the procedure can be cumbersome and expensive. The Bill will introduce a system of enduring powers of attorney; that is to say, a system which will continue in force after the donor becomes mentally incapable.

Earlier this year, the Adoptive Leave Act, 1995, was enacted and came into effect on 20 March. Enactment of this legislation gives practical effect to a Government commitment in the area and realises a further recommendation of the Second Commission on the Status of Women. The Act gives adopting mothers a statutory entitlement to leave, analogous to that already available to natural mothers since 1981, under maternity protection legislation. Legislation was also introduced by the Minister for Social Welfare to provide a related social welfare benefit.

Since taking office one of my priorities has been the introduction of new employment equality legislation. Work is well advanced on the drafting of an Employment Equality Bill, which I hope to be in a position to publish before the end of the year. The Bill will repeal the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974, and the Employment Equality Act, 1977, and re-enact them with substantial improvements, drawing on the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women; developments in the European Union; the ESRI study on pay differentials; my discussions with the social partners and other extensive consultations, with a view to a significant development in the legislative framework for equality. The Bill will cover discrimination on grounds of sex, marital or family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race, colour, nationality, national or ethnic origins or membership of the travelling community. A first draft of the Bill has been completed by the Office of the Parliamentary Draftsman and the consultations with other Departments are continuing.

The Government remains committed to the introduction of equal status legislation which will prohibit discrimination in the provision of goods and services for the categories of people already mentioned in the context of the Employment Equality Bill. The proposal is that legislation will be introduced which will deal with discrimination — on the grounds of gender, marital status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability and membership of the travelling community — in education, the provision of goods, facilities and services and the disposal of accommodation or other premises. This is a complex and wide ranging piece of legislation and extensive consultations with interested parties have been taking place with officials in my Department. The Bill is being drafted at present and I hope to be in a position to publish it next year.

The enactment of the Employment Equality and Equal Status Bills will necessitate the restructuring of the Employment Equality Agency to reflect its wider responsibilities. I am providing an allocation of £750,000 for the agency in 1995 to offset the additional salary and operational costs which will arise as a result of this broader remit. The Employment Equality Agency already adopts a pro-active role in the encouragement of both employers and trade unions to adopt equality policies by the provision of guidance, advice and published material. In close consultation with employers' organisations and ICTU, the agency drafted a code or practice on sexual harassment which I published last September. The agency has ensured a wide distribution of the code and I hope to give it some legal recognition in the forthcoming equality legislation.

The problem of sexual harassment in employment is a topic which has been receiving increasing attention in recent years as a result of claims taken under the Employment Equality Act, 1977, and the efforts of employers and trade unions to tackle the matter. The Labour Court considers it to be an infringement of the workers' rights to have to work in an environment where they are subjected to this form of treatment. The code of practice will contribute to the prevention of sexual harassment in the work place. Both employers and trade unions, through their respective representative bodies, IBEC and ICTU, have shown a positive disposition towards combating the problem and putting in place workplace procedures to deal with it. The code is contributing to these efforts.

The Maternity Protection Act 1994, which incorporates the employment rights aspect of the EU Pregnant Workers Directive into Irish law came into operation on 30 January 1995. In addition to the main provisions in relation to maternity leave which were available under the Maternity (Protection of Employees) Act, 1981, legislation afforded additional rights to employees which centres on the health and safety aspects of employment. Child care is, in my view, a key factor in improving equal opportunities. Successive Governments and the Second Commission on the Status of Women advocated a major expansion of child care facilities. The Programme for Competitiveness and Work followed these developments up with a series of commitments in progressing the provision of facilities in this area. The report of the working group on child care facilities for working parents was published in March 1994. The purpose of the report was to identify ways of increasing child care services for working parents. This will particularly benefit working mothers and mothers who wish to return to employment. The group made wide ranging recommendations to employers, employee and community interests regarding the promotion of such facilities, the lack of which are identified as a major disincentive to women securing employment in the labour market. It looked at the need for and supply of such facilities, gave examples of child care models from other countries and outlined the possible contribution EU funds might make.

Significantly, the report also identified measures other than child care which supported the reconciliation of family and work responsibilities. These measures included work organisation and leave arrangements. The pilot child care initiative, which I had included in last year's Esimates for the first time, is being continued into this year. The scheme is intended to assist the initiation of projects for the establishment on a pilot basis of child care measures, utilising the skills of trained local people to enable women to undertake educational training, retraining and employment opportunities, which they would otherwise be unable to do in the absence of a child care facility.

The scheme is being administered on behalf of my Department by Area Development Management, which is an independent company designed by the Government and the European Commission to support integrated local economic and social development in cooperation with relevant area partnership companies established by the Government is designated disadvantaged areas. A provision of £1 million has been included in my Department's Estimate for 1995. At the end of May, a total of £450,000 had been issued to ADM towards the cost of grants for approved projects. Additional instalments will be paid in line with progress achieved on the projects. It is still too early to assess the impact of this initiative. However, I intend to make the necessary arrangements later this year in consultation with ADM to have the results of the project evaluated.

In advance of establishing a permanent council for the status of people with disabilities, an ad hoc steering group has been appointed and has commenced working. This group will facilitie the development of a constituent base from which a provisional council can emerge. It will also draw up a provisional constitution, pending the adoption of a formally agreed constitution in conjunction with the setting up of a properly constituted council. The activities of the steering group will entail a great deal of preparatory work. Its allocation for 1995 is £100,000.

The task force on the travelling community, which I established in 1993, is expected to publish its report within a matter of weeks. It is my hope that the report will be the catalyst required to improve the lives of travellers throughout Ireland. I have already discussed with my Ministerial colleagues the action which is required on foot of the task force interim report which was published last year. I will continue this work and will participate in concerted co-ordinated action when the task force's final report is received.

Preparations for the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women have been under way in my Department for some time. Officials from my Department have attended a number of preparatory meetings and Ireland will be represented at further such meetings between now and the date of the conference. My Department has also provided financial assistance to NGO's and women's groups who are interested in attending the conference. Ireland's national report to the conference was published in October 1994 and I intend publishing a supplement to the report in advance of the conference. The supplement will consist of submissions from non-governmental organisations which were not available at the time of printing of the national report and organisations are being invited to send submissions to my Department for inclusion. A national co-ordinating committee, which is chaired by my Department, was established to oversee preparations for the Beijing conference. While the final composition of the delegation has yet to be decided, I intend to lead the national delegation in September.

In conclusion, while ours is a small Department with a modest budget, I believe that our impact as a Department on Irish society will be very much out of proportion with our small size. Our total allocation for 1995 will amount to £12.2 million. With this relatively small amount and a dedicated and hardworking staff, I believe that the Department of Equality and Law Reform is in the process of laying the groundwork for a fairer and more equitable Ireland in the years to come. I know that there is a rocky legislative road ahead and it is rarely possible to achieve unanimous support for major reform. We have as a Government embarked on the road of fairness and equality for all and I believe that the taxpayer will receive, as he or she is entitled to, value for money in relation to the work of the Department of Equality and Law Reform.

Dr. Woods

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive review of the work of the Department at present, particularly the work in the legislative area. The Department of Equality and Law Reform is a Department of good intentions with little muscle to put those intentions into practice. Few will publicly oppose the worthy objectives of equality and fair play for women or for people with disabilities in the competition for jobs or for advancement to the upper echelons of management. The Minister, of course, will speak eloquently, as he has here this morning, about the Government's commitment to equality, but what has been achieved to date in practice? The fact that only 13 per cent of people in wheelchairs are in open employment and only 12 per cent of the women in the Civil Service are in the principal officer management grade shows an appalling level of discrimination in our society. These obvious and unaccepable realities cry out, not just for studies and surveys, for reports and for new legislation, but for immediate practical action at Government level.

The setting up of this new Department by the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government in 1992 was intended to give a new sense of urgency to the pursuit of equality and fair play in Irish society. This Department has been charged with promoting and implementing equal treatment for a wide range of people who currently experience disadvantage, disability or unfair treatment within our society. The Minister carries a heavy burden of new legislation which can easily sap the energy of a small new Department. Unless he also makes real visible progress in practical achievement and concrete development, his noble aspirations will have little beneficial effect on those who depend on his work.

For this reason I would like to see a strategic management plan for his Department, with clear cut objectives and targets and the inclusion of priorities clearly related to the people who deserve priority, those who suffer discrimination, disadvantage or disability in our society today. This plan should be endorsed by the Government and implemented by all Departments under the direction of the Department of Equality and Law Reform. This Department, above all, must have the total support of Government if its plans are to be successful.

Members may feel that I am taking a very urgent approach to this, but the reality is that our society has developed immeasurably over the ten years and it is time we tackled the difficulties of people with disabilities on a national basis. I appreciate the Minister's difficulties. He has a small Department, he can bring in legislation, he can point to the difficulties; but we must make more progress than that and we must make it sooner. To date the Minister has failed to produce any clear cut objectives for his Department and seems to be unable to indicate what his priorities are. In reply to my parliamentary question on 7 March 1995, reported in volume 450, column 221, the Minister said:

I am reluctant to attempt identifying priorites since each area is a priority in its own right. There is also the consideration that any order of priorities requires constant review and adjustment in the light of changing circumstances, particularly where legislation is involved.... I prefer to adopt a pragmatic approach by maintaining pressure on all fronts with a view to making whatever progress is feasible at any given time.

The Minister's inability to identify the key areas of inequality he plans to tackle and overcome during the lifetime of this Government means that while much useful work is being done by his Department, there is no clear focus on priorities which need to be tackled as a matter of urgency. For this reason I am concerned about the management and direction of the Department. As I said, I appreciate it is a new Department and that the volume of legislation can sap energy and take up time; but if we are to make practical progress and see concrete developments, as the Minister wants, we need a more focused and targeted approach to some of the obvious areas of discrimination.

One of the most important tasks facing the Department this year is the divorce referendum. Fianna Fáil has already indicated its support in principle for a change to the Constitution to allow for remarriage. We have also expressed our concern that the role of the family in Irish society should be supported in a positive way. We regard as particularly important the protection of children and vulnerable spouses. We clearly stated a period of separation of up to five years should be required before remarriage could take place and that such period should be specified in the Constitution.

Fianna Fáil will not give an open-ended commitment to support a referendum unless the Government puts both the wording of the referendum and the contents of the legislation before the people in time for a full and open public debate on these critically important social issues. The Government has promised a referendum on 30 November; it is now a month before the summer recess and we have not seen as yet the Government's proposals. It is time the three parties in Government agreed on the form the referendum will take and make it available to the Opposition.

All the options available in this area have received extensive and protracted consideration. The principal options are set out in the Government's White Paper, published in 1992. All that remains is for the Government to make a decision, which it seems unable to do. If November 30 is still the target date, time is running out for the full and necessary discussions of the Government's proposals.

We need new measures to protect children and ensure their needs and rights are catered for in the event of remarriage. We need to look afresh at their position in the event of marriage breakdown and to ensure we avail of the most recent research and experience in forming the new legislation.

Both marriage counselling and family mediation services need to be greatly expanded. Our first emphasis should be on solving problems and keeping the family together through counselling. When the breakdown has occurred we should ensure an effecive mediation service is available to avoid confrontation and make the parting as amicable as possible. Special consideration should be given to the protection of children at this critical stage.

There is a need for a policy decision on those two areas. This Estimate provides for no increase over 1994 in the allocation of £750,000 for marriage counselling and there is provision of £300,000 for one new family centre for the family mediation services. This does not suggest the Government is serious about these services or has decided on a plan to meet present and future needs in this area.

The Minister is providing £500,000 for a public information campaign in conjunction with the divorce referendum. It is noteworthy that the entire sum provided to support marriage counselling services is only marginally greater, at £750,000. This demonstrates the low priority given to support for families in difficulty.

Apart from this, does the Minister not accept it is essential that there be a full, fair and balanced public debate on the divorce issue? In light of the fact that the Government plans to spend £500,000 promoting the case for divorce, does he not feel that in the interest of balance the arguments against changing the Constitution should be presented in a fair way as part of the information package so the electorate can make a fully informed decision?

Under the Legal Aid Board, the increase of £6.2 million in the provision for the scheme of civil legal aid and advice is welcome. This will provide for the much needed expansion of the scheme to ensure a comprehensive geographic spread, which is long overdue. It seems to do no more than that; the Minister has made no provision for the increased demand which would follow a "yes" vote in the referendum. Although only a small portion of the extra cost would occur this year, if only 5,000 currently separated couples sought legal aid to obtain divorces immediately after a "yes" vote in the referendum. Although only a small portion of the extra cost would occur this year, if only 5,000 currently separated couples sought legal aid to obtain divorces immediately after a "yes" vote, this would more than double the work of the Legal Aid Board and call for a substantial increase in this subhead. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what his Department's Estimates would be in this event and his views on that possibility.

Since the Legal Aid Board is now extending its offices througout the country, it is time to join the mediation services to these centres and provide a comprehensive service, centred on mediation, with legal aid where necessary. Everyone agrees mediation is preferable, but there is a need for a planned approach to development and the consequential expenditures. A great mistake could be made and it would be unfortunate to set up two separate services when they should at least be in the same buildings or more closely related. The Minister should consider this.

The Estimate provides for one extra centre for mediation services. If we are to provide a service throughout the country, and since mediation is so important, we need a network of mediation services, as the Minister will agree. We should see where this net work should be provided for the future.

I welcome the extra provision for community child care facilities in disadvantaged areas. However, I will reserve further comments for the detailed discussion of the individual subheads in the Estimates.

I congratulate the Minister on the development in legislative reform. This area is time consuming and difficult, but considerable progress has been made. I assure him of our support and co-operation in the heavy programme of legislation before him. We will give him every assistance in the detail of the legislation, bringing it forward and having it completed as quickly as possible.

Ms Keogh

I will start on a positive note by agreeing with what Chairman said earlier. Although the Department of Equality and Law Reform is small with a small budget — I am sure the Minister agrees it is too small — it is an important Department, particularly in the area of law reform. I congratulate the Minister and his officials for the work they have done. However, gaps still remain. I regret that no progress has been made as regards the matrimonial home, but I have already mentioned that so I will not dwell on it. I am sure the Department is continuing to work on it. I hope a solution is found to that problem before too long.

When one talks about equality in relation to the Department of Equality and Law Reform one tends to think of disadvantaged minority groups. It is ironic that the largest group, women, is not a minority group, but represents 51 per cent of the population. They have been discriminated against over the years. It is ironic that women are seen in the same light as smaller groups such as travellers or those with disabilities. I am not taking away from these groups, but it is ironic that women are grouped as a disadvantaged priority when that is not the case.

I was glad that the Commission of the Status of People with Disabilities was set up. However, I was worried about the time span it was given to make a report. I was glad to hear the Minister say that work is in train with an ad hoccommittee to set up a council on the status of people with disabilities. This is a positive step forward. As Deputy Woods said, the area of disability was ignored. People are working in various areas which need co-ordination. I hope the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities ensures that the attitude towards people with disabilities in our society continues to improve and becomes more positive.

My father has been disabled for the past few years and one of my teenage daughters works with disabled children and those involved in the Special Olympics. As a result, I am now more aware of the difficulties experienced by people with disabilities. I have learned a lot over the past few years about the lack of facilities for disabled people and the difficulties they must endure as regards transport, etc.

When the report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities is published we must ensure that its recommendations are implemented as soon as possible, regardless of who is in Government at the time. This is essential because this section of our society has not been sufficiently acknowledged over the years.

As regards the proposed divorce referendum, I appreciate the fact that the Minister met our party leader and myself for a second time to discuss its implications and our party's attitude towards it. I do not agree with Deputy Woods as regards the terms for divorce. I strongly believe that the terms should not be written into the Constitution. This debate is still ongoing, but I would be wrong if I did not stress my view this morning.

I agree with Deputy Woods that we must emphasise our concern for children, mediation and counselling. I congratulated the Minister last year for increasing funding for family mediation services, etc. Although a further increase was granted this year, it is not sufficient. I am disappointed that the grant for marriage counselling services was not increased from last year, although it was increased last year. This reiterates my point that the Department needs a bigger budget than it has at present. I behoves us, as part of the Opposition, to stress that the Department needs more funding. Any debate about divorce will stress the need for counselling and the need to keep families together where possible. I regret that we are sending out a negative signal by not granting extra funds to marriage counselling services.

We must stress our concern for children. At a recent conference great emphasis was placed on the needs of children. This should be part of any debate. The issue is not about whether separation should be for three, four or five years, but about counselling families, helping children and ensuring they receive counselling. We must recognise reality. Divorce will not make anything different, particularly for those children whose parents are separating or who are in difficult family situations. More emphasis must be placed on this area.

It is extraordinary that the Minister should have to fund child care. I do not disagree with this — I am glad it is being done — but it is extraordinary that the Department of Health does not have responsibility for it. Instead of spending money on this pilot child care programme, which should have been paid for by the Department of Health, perhaps the Department of Equality and Law Reform could have spent it on counselling services, etc. It seems extraordinary that the Minister should fund it when we need to place greater emphasis on counselling.

I am concerned about the Legal Aid Board's grant-in-aid, which has been increased by 25 per cent. Recently a presentation was made by the people from the legal advice centres to the Joint Committee on Women's Rights. They are extremely concerned about existing waiting lists. There seems to have been a misunderstanding — I would not say a dispute — about how figures were calculated. However, there are still very long waits for people who wish to avail of legal advice, and this issue must be examined. There is a difficulty with regard to retaining solicitors with expertise in the area and in this respect some reservations have been expressed about the private practitioners pilot scheme. It emphasises a totality of attitude towards the whole area of family law and so on. For example, solicitors with private practice are taking away from the resources of their own companies because they may be involved in other more lucrative cases.

The Department of Equality and Law Reform needs more resources, given that so much has to be done. The Department is overburdened. It has a small budget and staff; but, given its legislative programme, it is battling well. As Opposition spokespersons, we should also battle with the Minister to ensure that our preferred legislative programme is implemented.

There should be some degree of commitment with regard to the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women. There is only one reference to the report in the Minister's statement, but there should be a report on the elements which the Minister wishes to prioritise.

Chairman

This concludes the opening statements and we now proceed to examine the Estimates in detail. I propose to begin by taking subheads A1 to A8 inclusive. I call on Deputy Browne.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

I may be out of order because I had planned only to compliment the Minister on the way has has handled the legislation——

Chairman

You are not out of order, Deputy.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

——in such a steady manner, especially with regard to difficult legislation such as the Occupiers Liability Bill, where many genuine fears were expressed. The Minister introduced this legislation with his own ideas, but listened to the debate and presented a much improved Bill.

With regard to the proposed equal status legislation, many shopkeepers are worried about their rights. Some see the legislation as an attempt to protect the travelling community, but there are several genuine cases where shopkeepers know that some people have set out specifically to lift goods and that those engaged in this activity can tip off one another. In those circumstances the shopkeepers want the right to ask people to leave their premises. It is the kind of legislation which will require all the skills of the Minister to overcome the genuine worries which exist.

Mr. Kemmy

I welcome the opportunity to reflect on the Minister's overview on the workings of his Department over the past 12 months and his proposals and projections for the coming year. It is a useful exercise for the members of the committee to influence and perhaps amend some of his ideas in this area.

I am somewhat dismayed at the recent action of some of my colleagues in the Seanad when they asked the Minister to extend the provisions of the Legal Aid Board and the law centres to areas covered by the Employment Appeals Tribunal and the Social Welfare Appeals Board. While I admire many of the Senators individually, such as Senator Norris, they were unduly mischievous in this instance and got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The work of the Employment Appeals Tribunal and the Social Welfare Appeals Board is very important and is becoming more public. However, the original idea behind them was that they would be simple and would cater for individuals going before them in an informal way to seek justice or have grievances redressed. It would, therefore, be a bad idea for the Minister and the Government to allow the whole process become legally entangled.

If there are difficulties for an individual in presenting his or her case to either body, there is no reason why the chairperson of the Employment Appeals Tribunal — usually an independent barrister appointed by the Government — or the chairperson of the Social Welfare Appeals Board and the representatives of employers and trade unions who are members of the board should not come to the aid of the individual. Rather than have the Minister involved in providing free legal aid in these areas, thereby making waiting lists longer in law centres throughout the country, he should reform and streamline the Employment Appeals Tribunal and the Social Welfare Appeals Board to make them more simple and direct. This point was missed during the recent Seanad debate. Such a move would allow the free legal aid scheme and the law centres to get on with the work they should be doing with regard to families and children.

I hope the Minister will not take his time in addressing the report of the task force on travellers and that fair play will be given to it. Hopefully, no attempt has been made to muddy the waters on this issue. I have no idea of the content of the report, but doubtless work on it has been undertaken with diligence over the past two years by the members and respective chairpersons in the first instance by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy McManus, and more recently by Senator Kelly. Fair play and justice should ensue to allow the report to be discussed in a dispassionate and fair minded way. If there are sections of the report which could prove controversial and could be distorted, hopefully those concerned will debate them and will be fair in their attitude. We do not want scaremongering in this area. If proposals in the report are designed in an honest way to improve the lot of travelling people in Ireland, we should support them.

To introduce the questions of attacks on the culture of travellers would be wrong if there was no attack meant. Some aspects of a culture are good, but all culture is not necessarily so; ipso facto, because something is part of a culture does not make it good or right. If the intention is to reform aspects of the culture of travellers which require reform, we should not muddy the waters and make attacks on the report in an unfair and unjust way. Hopefully, this will not happen.

With regard to family law and society, it is unfair to ask the Minister to patch up all the defects and flaws of our society with regard to marriage and children. This is not the Minister's brief; he can do the best he can, but there other aspects of life over which causes marriage breakdown. In addition, the Minister has little or no control over other factors in our society, such as the high cost of accommodation. All these factors cause marriage breakdown, as does the incompatibility of people, an aspect to which nobody refers. If people are incompatible, no law in the world can force them to live together. A broader response is required to the issue. I am often amazed by those who often preach about the family and about being pro life who never seem to worry about horrors such as children begging on the streets and damage to families from drug abuse and people selling drugs. They are oblivious to that. They never see any attack on the family in those areas. They have a narrow focus on marriage and the family, which is totally unchristian, undemocratic and wrong. I hope we can broaden that debate as time goes by.

I hope there is no confusion leading up to the divorce referendum. It is unfortunate that anybody should be divorced. The Minister is not forcing people to break up marriages. On the contrary, he is trying to support marriages by everything he has done to date. He is not forcing people to break up marriages or even to divorce. They can survive that in society. There are people whose conscience and circumstances will allow them to remarry. That is what we are doing in a straightforward way.

The Minister has achieved much over a short time. He has brought competence, confidence and coherence to the Department. He has pulled together many diverse and disparate strands in a most effective and efficient way, sometimes in a low profile way, in a relatively short time. I commend him for that.

After that long preamble, I will not abuse the Chair further. I want to ask the Minister about the provisions for elderly people who have become senile. What happens to a marriage partner who is relatively old or a young person who is mentally incapable? Do the same powers apply there? I know it is a difficult question for which the Minister is not prepared. He brought in donor powers, which I support, in the case of one partner in a marriage who becomes senile or mentally incapable. Would the same powers apply to a younger partner in a marriage who becomes mentally incapable also? If it applies there, perhaps the Minister might expand that part of his address to cover that point. I think it is merely an omission on the Minister's part. I am sorry for such a difficult question at this early stage.

Chairman

If that is a preamble, I would like to see the Deputy ambling through the various subheads, but he is very welcome. I am anxious to accommodate Members with their comments. Indeed, I welcome Deputy Kemmy's sentiments.

Dr. Woods

On subhead A1 — salaries, wages and allowances for staff —£1.658 million — what is the staff breakdown? I presume there is one secretary. How many assistant secretaries, principal officers, etc. are there?

Mr. Taylor

Perhaps, I might answer Deputy Kemmy's point before he goes. The Enduring Powers of Attorney Bill will not have any age qualification to it. It will apply in the case of any person who would become mentally incapable if the power of attorney executed is stated to be an enduring power and meets the necessary conditions. There will be no age question involved. It will also apply whether they are married or not. Marriage will not be a qualification for it. It can apply to a person who is not married at all. It can give an enduring power to a member of their family, a lawyer or whatever.

The total staff of the Department is 65 people. There is a secretary, two assistant secretaries, four principal officers, 13 assistant principals, ten higher executive officers, nine executive officers, five clerical officers, 13 clerical assistants and typists, three service officers and the Minister's personal staff, making a total of 65 altogether.

Dr. Woods

How many are involved with the legislative process? Does the Minister have people working on legislation continuously?

Mr. Taylor

Yes. Some people from both sides of the Department, on both the law reform and equality sides, work on legislation. On the law reform side, the Civil Legal Aid Bill, 1995, the Family Law Bill, 1994 and the Enduring Powers of Attorney Bill come to mind immediately. On the equality side, they are dealing with the Employment Equality Bill and the Equal Status Bill.

Dr. Woods

How many people are committed to legislation? Is there a section devoted to legislation?

Mr. Taylor

There is not a section devoted to legislation as such. There are two divisions in the Department — the equality division and the law reform division. There are a number of people in each of those divisions working on legislation. Others are support staff, research, secretarial, administrative, personnel and so on.

Dr. Woods

Does the Department work on a two division basis?

Mr. Taylor

Yes. There are two divisions — law reform and equality.

Dr. Woods

Is there much difference between the allocation of principal officers, for example? Are each of the two assistant secretaries in charge of a division?

Mr. Taylor

One assistant secretary heads up each division.

Dr. Woods

Are the principal officers split between them?

Mr. Taylor

Yes, two and two.

Dr. Woods

Does that include any POs or assistant secretaries that might be out in the Legal Aid Board or anywhere else?

Mr. Taylor

No, not at all.

Ms Keogh

There is a figure in subhead A7 for consultancy services and there is an increase of 59 per cent envisaged. What particular services are included under that?

Mr. Kenneally

Looking at various headings under administration, two figures in particular hop off the page at me. First is salaries, wages and allowances where there is an increase of 20 per cent. It is masked slightly because the overtime estimate is down and social welfare contributions are more or less static. In reality, it is a 21.5 or 22 per cent increase, which appears extraordinary high. I know there is an increase in for the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and also an increase in staff of five. Perhaps, the Minister could elaborate a little more on it.

Is there anything built in there in relation to the divorce referendum? I was surprised that there was only a passing reference to divorce in the Minister's speech and nothing else. It appears as if the date of 30 November is being forgotten in relation to Estimates for 1995. The reality is dawning, even though we have not been told yet. We are not going to have the divorce referendum this year. Perhaps, everything is being pushed aside until next year. Is there any truth in that?

Second, consultancy services have risen by 59 per cent. The amount of money spent on consultancy services is a bugbear of mine as regards local authorities and Government Departments. Again, I would like more information on where that money is going. Do we not have the expertise within the Department to undertake this sort of work? I accept some amount of consultancy work will always be necessary anyway. Would it be more cost effective to employ somebody to undertake some of that work?

Mr. E. Walsh

On subhead A8 — advertising and publicity — what does that entail? The item is described as newspaper notices, publicity, etc. As the Department is an important one from the point of view of providing and issuing information and ensuring that people know what the Department is doing and what services it supplies, does the Minister envisage any areas other than newspaper advertising that will improve the communication network the Department deserves? I thought of areas where people tend to be in need of information but do not normally have access to the established newspapers. Will the Minister consider other means of advertising through community organisations, community centres and so on? We should examine the way we spend money on advertising because there is an assumption that the main national newspapers are the only vehicle available to carry information vitally important to organisations and people in areas of need.

The £12.2 million which this Department costs is money well spent; it has given an excellent service since its inception. I pay tribute to the Minister, his staff and to the Members who have worked so hard in producing so much information, legislation and consultation in areas of great need. It is a reflection of the Minister's commitment to this brief. We would get good value for money if other Departments delivered as much for the amount allocated to this Department.

Chairman

The Deputy made an interesting point with regard to the advertising and publicity. Government Departments often think the beginning and end of advertising is with the national media.

Mr. Taylor

Deputy Kenneally raised the point about the increase in salaries under subhead A1. It is referable to increases arising under the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, grade claims and also due to the fact that there were five more people on the staff in 1995 than in 1994.

The amount provided for advertising is very small — only £15,000. The need for communication with the line services, in so far as there are line services in this Department, is dealt with separately and independently by the two bodies for which I have responsibility, namely, the Employment Equality Agency and the Legal Aid Board, who operate their own information dissemination systems. The advertising of their services would be dealt with in their own budgets rather than in the budget of the Department itself. The consultancy figure is also very small. I will get further information as to an actual breakdown of it shortly.

Dr. Woods

The secretary of the Department is male; are any of the assistant secretaries female?

Mr. Taylor

No.

Dr. Woods

And the principal officers?

Mr. Taylor

They are all also male.

Dr. Woods

I do not blame the Minister for this.

Mr. Taylor

I have no control over it.

Dr. Woods

It is a matter I feel strongly about. The interviewing system is biased against women. We have had this matter out at Question Time.

Mr. Taylor

I have inherited a system built up by many Governments over many years.

Dr. Woods

I appreciate that, but the Minister is in charge of this special Department for strategic planning to tackle these issues.

Mr. Taylor

I have been working with what I have inherited——

Dr. Woods

I will lose all my male friends.

Mr. Taylor

——from many past Governments who had many years to address it.

Dr. Woods

What about the assistant principals?

Mr. Taylor

About half of the assistant principals are women.

Dr. Woods

There is better representation at that level.

On subhead A2 — travel and subsistence — there is a figure of £30,000 for EU foreign travel. Is that recoverable from the EU? Does it come back to the Department of Finance and does the Department then get appropriations-in-aid?

Mr. Taylor

It is.

Dr. Woods

The Department gets around fairly cheaply in net terms. Can the Minister explain the £10,000 in home travel?

Mr. Taylor

That would be for local travel or travel around the country.

Dr. Woods

The Ministerial car is covered by the Department of Justice Estimate. This figure would cover what is extra to that?

Mr. Taylor

Yes.

Ms Keogh

There is a considerable increase in the figure for consultancy services. Does last year's spending give an indication of how it will be spent this year? Will the divorce referendum make a difference?

Mr. Taylor

The divorce referendum is being dealt with separately. There are a number of specific items in the consultancy subhead. One gets relatively little consultancy for the amounts of money involved. We will have a breakdown of the consultancy. This is not referable to the divorce referendum as such; that will all come out of the £500,000.

Ms Keogh

I accept there are some services that have to be brought in.

Mr. Kenneally

Is there anything in subhead A for the divorce referendum?

Mr. Taylor

There is no increase in staff for the divorce referendum. None of it is related.

Mr. Kenneally

Is there anything under any of the other subheads?

Mr. Taylor

It could be that some of the travel aspects might be used for something in connection with the divorce referendum; that could be the case. Somebody might be attending a meeting in Sligo or Galway.

Mr. Kenneally

By and large, it is not being used for the referendum.

Mr. Taylor

Not specifically so. Divorce is part of the Department's work and there could be home travel in connection with it. It could arise.

Dr. Woods

Did the Minister give up on maintenance for 1995?

Mr. Taylor

The Department is new and we got a lot of equipment in 1994, so that the costs in 1995 obviously dropped fairly dramatically. Once one has new equipment one does not immediately need to look for significant maintenance in the following year. Deputy Woods will appreciate how prudent and careful we are in the management of the nation's finances.

Mr. Kenneally

There does not seem to be the same prudence and care with the heating and lighting, the provision for which is doubling.

Dr. Woods

That is the five extra staff.

Ms Keogh

There might be a cold winter ahead.

Mr. Taylor

That has to do with the location. We are in a building which is jointly tenanted by us and the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and the allocation is our contribution to that. They are the managers of the buildings and the contribution may have gone up because of an underestimate in the previous year.

Mr. Kenneally

The Department had that problem before with the car and the paint.

Dr. Woods

How far has office computerisation advanced?

Mr. Taylor

The office is substantially computerised. There is a network and computers are available to everybody. It is a network within the building available to everybody who wants to use it. We are networked here with the Dáil service. We are one of the Departments on the network and as soon as the parliamentary questions come in we get copies of them. It is a new system which has not yet reached all Departments — only about five or six.

Ms Keogh

Could the Minister put in a good word for us?

Dr. Woods

We need not be fearful then of letters——

Mr. Taylor

We certainly would have done had Deputy Ahern not made a strong speech warning against any further Government expenditure on matters such as that in the foreseeable future. Otherwise we would have been happy to consider it.

Dr. Woods

We need not be fearful then of letters going astray in the Department. I note the officials are afraid to commit themselves in case one goes astray.

Chairman

In their opening contributions Members referred to the Employment Equality Agency, the Legal Aid Board, the Free Legal Advice Centres and the Family Mediation Service. For the purposes of our questions we could deal with subheads B, C1, C2 and D together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dr. Woods

Agreed, if discussed together and voted on separately.

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. Woods

The £750,000 for the Employment Equality Agency is obviously dependent on the equality legislation, so the Minister will probably not spend the full amount. I am not acting as the Minister for Finance, but I presume money cannot be switched between subheads. The Minister stated that the extra allocation is for the extra duties which would arise under the new legislation. Is the amount dependent on the new equality legislation? If so, are commitments to staff being made in advance or will the expenditure be curtailed if the legislation is not finalised? During his speech the Minister changed the position in relation to the equality legislation to the beginning of next year.

Mr. Taylor

I will clarify that point.

Dr. Woods

Without warning, the Minister took a shortcut.

Mr. Taylor

I am aware of that.

Dr. Woods

The Minister said that the equal status legislation is being drafted at present. He continued: "I hope to be in a position to publish it next year". He dropped the phrase "before the end of the year". Was I correct in picking up that point?

Mr. Taylor

That is correct. I will clarify that point. The Equal Status Bill will not be published this year, but I hope to publish the Employment Equality Bill this year.

Dr. Woods

It will be later in the year now.

Mr. Taylor

Yes, it will be later in the year. I hope to publish it this year and the Equal Status Bill next year.

Dr. Woods

In that case, what is the position in relation to the money?

Mr. Taylor

The Deputy is correct. The increase in the money is related to increased duties if and when that legislation goes through.

Ms Keogh

Does that mean both pieces of legislation?

Mr. Taylor

No, increased expenditure for the EEA would be required even when one piece of legislation goes through. The level must increase again when the second piece of legislation goes through. It will widen the scope beyond employment matters into the area of supply of goods and services.

Dr. Woods

Subheads B, C1, C2 and D are being taken together. Subhead C1 covers the Legal Aid Board and additional accommodation. As stated on numerous occasion, we welcome that extension and the geographical cover which will be provide through the additional accommodation.

Subhead D deals with the ? mediation service. The ? tioned an ? £300,000 ? up of a new centre outside Dublin. Is the venue Limerick?

Mr. Taylor

Yes.

Dr. Woods

In that case there will be family mediation service centres in Dublin and Limerick. However, Cork is a very large city with a large population and there are other major areas to which the Legal Aid Board is being geographically extended. Has the Minister considered the point I made about providing space in the new Legal Aid Board accommodation for the mediation service? The mediation service should take priority, although I know it only has a role when people agree to mediation.

This aspect relates to the referendum and the changes in legislation. We should concentrate on providing more counselling and support, as Deputy Keogh and I mentioned earlier. We should also work towards the greater provision of mediation services. The legislation and the Legal Aid Board should provide a fall back position or the rubber stamp on some of the agreements made. The mediation service should be extensively available and I hope the Minister will ensure that this is so in time. How does the Minister view the relationship between what is being developed in terms of the accommodation for the Legal Aid Board and what is happening with the family mediation service?

There is no increase this year for the Free Legal Advice Centres. The sum was £45,000 last year and it is the same this year. They received some income from the equality cases in which they were involved. However, I presume that income was used mainly to meet the costs of the participants in the cases. Could the Minister explain why there is no increase in the FLAC provision?

Ms Keogh

There is a obviously difficulty in relation to legal aid. Everybody supports the Minister regarding the funding he secured and the extension of the service. However, the trouble is that the problem is so extensive. The waiting lists are still enormous and there is a difficulty in terms of the fact that a limited number of people have experience in the family law area — although that is outside the Minister's control. There is also the issue of a sufficient number of judges and family courts. I do not know whether that aspect is within the Minister's remit, but I am sure he is well aware of the position from Cabinet discussions. I hope he will work on this issue because it is a very difficult problem.

I hope the divorce referendum will be held and passed. If this is the case, a number of people will require legal aid. The Free Legal Advice Centres should receive a substantial increase in funding and the point was well made with regard to the family mediation services. There is an indisputable case to be made for extending that service throughout the country. My main experience of the situation is in Dublin, but it must be very difficult for people in outlying areas — for example, there is no service in Cork. This issue must be addressed urgently.

Mr. Kenneally

Regarding the family mediation service, the note with subhead D states that the increase was due to the setting up of a new centre outside Dublin, in Limerick. Was there a delay involved in setting that up? The Minister stated there is no increase in the Estimate, which was £300,000 in 1994. The same figure applies for 1995, but the outturn was £149,000. One of two things must have happened; either there was a delay in setting up the centre, or the personnel were not in a position to use the funding which was available. Perhaps the resources were not put in place in time. Could the Minister explain the position?

Chairman

I accept much of what has been said by Members and I am sure the Minister also accepts much of it. In terms of legal aid, we are not talking about a civil legal aid scheme, rather of family legal aid. By and large, these cases all relate to family law. If somebody sought legal aid with regard to a private nuisance matter or tort, there is a huge waiting list. We are really talking about family law centres and in that regard Deputy Woods' point is worthy of detailed exploration. They could be merged with the legal aid centres and the mediation centres. I would like to hear the Minister's views on that.

I understand that there was a pilot project last year to involve private practitioners in the legal aid scheme. The Law Society of Ireland has now instructed private practitioners not to allow their services to be engaged in this system because of lack of funding. This has serious consequences, in so far as it will not allow the Government to see the practical operation of a successful pilot project. I wonder if the Minister should consider intervening in the matter or if he has any views on this directive from the Law Society. It seems that it will give rise to a situation where people will not be in a position to benefit from the scheme. In conclusion, everyone is in agreement with the increase in the legal aid services throughout the country. Almost every county now has a legal aid service, which is something that was not——

Mr. Taylor

Every country has at least one; some have more than one. I will deal with some of the points raised, not necessarily in the order in which they were raised. I regard the private practitioners scheme as important. It is working extremely well in the Dublin area. It has fulfilled a useful function there and a large number of cases have been handled by private practitioners in the Dublin area, which has been an enormous help. The Chairman is quite right. There was a difficulty with the Law Society outside Dublin, not quite on the basis, as he put it, that money ran out or anything like that. That was not the point. The point was that they felt the fees we were suggesting per case were not sufficient. That being so, I asked the previous Legal Aid Board to undertake an investigation of that whole matter to see what we could do about it. They presented their report on the operation of the private practitioners aspect of the scheme, suggesting what could and should be done about it. That came to hand shortly before the previous board went out of office. The new board, which is now in office, has energetically taken up the question of opening consultations with all interested parties, most notably solicitors and the Law Society, to see what can be done about getting that scheme going again outside Dublin. I take and have always taken the view that is has an important supplementary role to play, not a role that would in any way supplant the important and excellent work being done by the law centres but to supplement it in many kinds of circumstances. I am hopeful that it will be possible to resolve the difficulties in the operation of the scheme outside Dublin. There are many solicitors who wish to participate in it and who would be prepared to do so. That could be of great help in the service. The Chairman is right when he says that the overwhelming bulk of the work done by the law centres is in the general family law area. That is important work that has to be done and needs to be done. Large numbers of cases and people are dealt with through that service, particularly in its much increased and revamped position.

I do not accept Deputy Keogh's position that there is a problem with waiting lists; there is not. There is a problem with waiting lists in one or two exceptional centres. I will run down through the waiting lists for some examples Athlone, two months, Castlebar one month; South Mall, Cork, six ? Ormond Quay, Dublin six ? Upper mount Street, Dublin, four weeks; Finglas, four weeks; Tallaght, two months; Clondalkin, two weeks; Galway, three weeks; Limerick, one month; Longford, nil; Monaghan, nil; Portlaoise, two months; Tralee, five weeks; Waterford, nil; and Wicklow, three months. In 17 out of the 25 centres, there are waiting lists of less than eight weeks. There is and always will be the odd centre where some particular difficulty has arisen or where for one reason or another, there may be shortage of staff for a period and a waiting list has built up. That is a matter that I have asked the Legal Aid Board to keep an eye on and to deal with as necessary from time to time. They now have more scope for dealing with switching of staff and that kind of thing than they had before, by reason of the more than doubling of the numbers of people working for the Legal Aid Board. It has gone up from 99 people, as it was when I took over as Minister, to over 200 people now employed, including a large increase in the number of solicitors and support staff. The board is now better geared up and the waiting list period is at least within manageable proportions, by and large, even though there will always be room for improvement.

Dr. Woods

The Minister mentioned two long waiting lists.

Mr. Taylor

The two long ones are: Dundalk, nine months, and Blanchards-town in Dublin, seven months. There may be particular reasons. They are a solicitor short in Dundalk for some period, if I remember rightly, which they are addressing. There is quite a short waiting period in some Dublin centres. For example, it is only two weeks in Clondalkin, two months in Tallaght and four weeks in Finglas. It is four weeks in Upper Mount Street and in Gardiner Street it is three months. There is a variation there between the Dublin centres.

Dr. Woods

That is what I was wondering. I have some experience of the Gardiner Street centre. The waiting period of three months reflects the reality there.

Mr. Taylor

Three months is the most recent figure. The figures vary from centre to centre and staff have to be found for these centres. By reason of the huge expansion that has taken place in this service in the last two years, a major consolidation and reorganisation has to take place in the administration and backup systems, both in the centres and in the head office. That will take some time to settle and shake down; but a remarkable job has been done. I have gone around the country and visited many of the centres. I have been impressed by the huge boost to morale that has been engendered throughout the service by the provision, for the first time since the service started, of the kind of services and funding that is needed to give a proper service. The morale is high among the staff. We now have modern computerised offices, with precedent databases on computer. We have solicitors working in them. We have law clerks working there, which did not apply before. They are now taking on apprentices, which they never did before. There are dedicated teams in those law centres working well and I look forward to continuing improvement there.

I want to say a word about a number of questions raised in connection with the family mediation service. Deputy Kenneally is quite right: there was a hold-up last year in the acquisition and fitting out of premises and that explains what happened in the 1994 Estimate. The whole concept of mediation in Ireland is relatively new. The numbers of trained skilled people in Ireland in the professional field of mediation is quite limited. Even if one wanted to go directly against Deputy Ahern's request for a freeze on further Government expenditure and wanted to set up a large number of centres, it would not be possible to do that at the moment because the number of people who are professionals in this field is limited. We are making a major extension in the service in two respects. Firstly, we are providing, for the first time since the family mediation service started, another centre outside Dublin. We will be able to do that based on the expertise which has been built up in running the Dublin centre. Without that, there would have been great difficulty. Over the years that the centre has been running a level of training and expertise has been built up there which will provide the core nucleus to enable the Limerick centre to get off the ground and operating. That will be important.

I accept that there will be people outside the catchment areas of those two centres who might wish to avail of mediation services. To deal with that through the ambit of the family mediation service we will be using the services of a number, a relatively small number, of private mediators who practise in a private capacity at a small number of other locations throughout the country. We hope to have arrangements worked out to avail of their services at other locations outside the Dublin and Limerick catchment areas, using the ambit of the family mediation service. That will represent a major increase and extension of that service.

At the moment I would not envisage having the family mediation service located within the Legal Aid Board offices, which are already used to the full. With the doubling of the number of people working in the law centres, I do not think that would really be a possibility. Perhaps at some future date in a different financial regime it might be appropriate to have large offices in which the law centres and mediation service might both be accommodated, but it does not arise at this time.

So far as the counselling position is concerned, the level of increase of counselling that this Government provided — and I have to say, in fairness, that the previous Government provided — is a huge increase on what has ever been provided for in this country in the area of marriage counselling. The increase of over 150 per cent has enabled a large number of family counselling services to be located in every county. They are doing an excellent professional job in providing a huge increase in the level of counselling hours that have become available. They are happy with the level of increased funding that has been provided for them both this year and last year. Deputy Woods, who was with me at the launch of Accord, will agree that favourable comments were made there about the increased level of funding that has been provided.

The increased funding has also enabled another important aspect of marriage counselling to be dealt with, namely, the training of counsellors. One does not simply press a button and increase the service like that; it requires skill and trained people. Training programmes for marriage counsellors have been provided at numerous locations around the country.

I am satisfied that good use is being made of substantially increased funding provided by the previous and present Governments. I am pleased to have been able to do that, notwithstanding difficult budgetary constraints. I think that deals with the questions raised.

Dr. Woods

I appreciate what the Minister is saying about the present situation, but the whole point is about having a plan for where we are going ? though you cannot implement ? immediately ? with ? future, ? cerned with the issue of family law. Clarity about where we are going is required, especially with the referendum coming up and the potential output afterwards.

Over the years there has been a classical case here concerning the division between FÁS and the Department of Social Welfare, which in my view is completely wrong because they should have worked as a one-stop-shop. In some places the local management joined up to do that, but there are huge areas where it has not happened. A brand new building was being built in Ballyfermot, yet there was no way that FÁS would come in and use the new cashless office there. The cashless, open plan office is geared to service, so there is no need for screens and barriers. Tallaght is the same in that respect. However, it was very difficult to get the organisations to work together, even though everybody will support the concept of a one-stop-shop. In economic terms and from the point of view of development it is important to have substantial networks and that the Minister should eventually have the network he needs. He may not have it all overnight, but at least we should know where we are going.

The interesting thing about the FÁS-Social Welfare issue is that a great deal of advice has been given and is being given to developing countries. Since the Iron Curtain came down there has been a huge demand for advice from our public service experts. When it came to proposing, as FÁS did, the kind of operation that should apply, they of course proposed a one-stop-shop where they would all work in the one centre and that a national network of these centres would be developed. So what could not be proposed at home was the logical thing when you went to look at the situation outside. This is one of the strange behavioural aspects of our public service.

I do not want to push it as this stage, but I think it would be worth while for the Minister and his Department to look at that issue separately. Perhaps a consultancy could be engaged to look at a package and to see where we are going. My point and the point made by the Chairman could be taken into account to see where it should be going in five years' time.

I fully appreciate the work done by the Minister and the developments that have taken place in the last few years, and he is aware of that. However, when we sit down to look at the Estimates, where the Department is going and what the policy should be, we have to look critically and afresh at the situation and ask what the future direction should be. It is in that context that this should now be examined closely while the mediation services are at an early stage.

The Minister is correct in saying that people are happy with counselling, but if it is to be a main plank in support for the family, under the new situation which may well emerge we must also consider what sort of network should be available throughout the country and try to ensure that that is there.

The Minister did not mention why the £45,000 allowance is the same for the free legal advice centres.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

Can the Minister clarify his comment that Waterford has a nil waiting time. Waterford always controlled Carlow, which was a kind of outpost at the time.

Mr. Kenneally

It still is.

Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny)

The Minister says that every county has its own centre, but are we still under the guidance of Waterford, because there was always a delay in Carlow?

Dr. Woods

For the benefit of members, will the Minister circulate the list of centres and times? I know that he has read a good deal of it into the record, but if he has the list can it be circulated afterwards?

Mr. Taylor

I can circulate it later. I do not have copies of it now. But of course it changes from month to month; it changes from day to day in places.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

I endorse what Deputy Woods, Deputy Kenneally and yourself, Chairman, said about examining what potential there is for co-ordinating the service, given that if and when you have a divorce referendum there will be a need to expand and qualify the range of services to be made available. I accept the Minister's point that because the mediation service is so new he will need time for consideration before he can say that it should be incorporated into the overall service.

Nevertheless, some valid points have been made about where we go from here. Deputy Woods and the Chairman have advised the Minister to look at the picture in three to five years' time and at the range and quality of the services he envisages for Irish society then. It is important that he take a three to five year view of the situation. It is logical to anticipate that the evolution of this system will result in it being part of the one-stop-shop to which Deputy Woods referred.

The Minister made no reference to the proposed divorce referendum or to a proposed date for the referendum when he made his contribution earlier today. Is there any significance to that? Perhaps the Minister would comment on that. With regard to free legal aid centres, are efficiency audits being carried out on the centres? Are there efficiency audit systems and, if so, are they operated to determine the value for money status of each of the centres? When the Minister says that there are waiting lists of varying duration, is he talking to some extent about a variation in the value for money status of each of the centres, or is it possible to determine that? If it is not possible to determine that, why is it not possible? There is a certain number of staff in each centre and each centre is supposed to serve a fairly equal catchment area, although there will always be variations in comparing like with like. Since there are such variations, does it reflect to some extent a significant deviation among centres in terms of value for money, or is that not relevant? If it is not relevant, how do we know that? Is there any problem in attracting staff to such centres — I am referring mainly to solicitors — given that the rates of remuneration within the service would be significantly lower than could be earned in private practice?

Ms Keogh

With regard to waiting lists, what is the exact method of calculating the waiting periods, such as three months in Gardiner Street or no waiting period in Waterford? I remember hearing somebody express surprise that the waiting period in Waterford was less than a week, although I have no knowledge of the situation there. However, I am curious about how the waiting period is calculated. Does it mean that if one lives in Waterford one can call to the centre and be dealt with immediately? If one calls to the Athlone centre will one's difficulty be dealt with in two months time?

With regard to the marriage counselling services, the Minister said that all the agencies were delighted with the amount of money they received. That does not necessarily mean that they did not want more. I am sure they were delighted with what they received. I served on the executive of a marriage counselling service for a couple of years. These voluntary organisations are always delighted to receive ? because they are convinced ? will be out of business ? month's time and will be ? people. They ? moneys and they always want more. I am sure their submissions seek more than they get.

Notwithstanding the amount of money they do or do not receive, the main question is when they will receive it. That is always a huge issue for voluntary agencies. It is an enormous difficulty because there is always uncertainty — will they get as much as they got last year or will their funding be increased? Can the Minister tell us which agencies are receiving funding? Are they the same agencies that received moneys last year? Are they all getting exactly the same amount of money, or are some of the voluntary bodies getting less? Can the Minister say when the various agencies will receive the moneys they are allocated under this subhead?

Mr. Taylor

The money that is available will, by and large, be spent this year. It is paid out in two or three tranches. It is meant to cover expenditure in 1995. The amounts in all cases will not be exactly the same as they were in 1994. The first tranche has been paid. Fifty-four organisations were aided last year and 58 will be aided this year. So far this year £195,900 has been paid out in the first tranche.

The Deputy asked how waiting list figures are calculated. I imagine that when one says there is a waiting list of two months it means that when a person calls to a centre now and seeks an appointment they will get an appointment two months hence. If the waiting list is nil, as it is in quite a few of the centres, the person can be dealt with straight away.

To put this in context, I will compare the current waiting list figures for a few centres with what they were in July 1993, just two years ago. The current figure for Athlone is two months; in July 1993 it was 14 months. The current figure for Castlebar is one month, while in July 1993 it was seven months. The waiting period in Cork North Mall is now five months, but in July 1993 it was ten months. Cork South Mall has a current waiting period of six weeks, whereas in July 1993 it was ten months. Ormond Quay, Dublin, has a current waiting period of six weeks; in July 1993 it was two months. Gardiner Street's waiting period is now three months, while in July 1993 it was 13 months. The current figure for Finglas is four weeks; in July 1993 the figure was six months. Tallaght's current figure is two months; in July 1993 it was 12 months. These figures will give members a concept of what has happened in a short two year period. Members should also bear in mind what that involved in terms of staff, offices and gearing up administration. It is not just the solicitor or the law clerk at the coalface who is dealing with the problem — back-up staff must be trained and put in place. This is an ongoing, developmental process and we are in an important consolidation phase.

Before I deal with the other questions raised, I wish to give members the consultancy figures that were discussed earlier. In 1994 the total was £29,000. That was made up to £24,000 for a consultant to the Commission on the Status of People with disabilities. That is continued into this year, where there is an allocation of £24,000 for the same consultant. The remaining £5,000 in 1994 was for the finalisation of the report of the working party on childcare — that again involved a consultant. The remaining £22,000 for 1995 is for a part-time medical consultant to advise on disability matters.

Deputy Fitzgerald raised the question of audits and value for money in the context of the Legal Aid Board, problems of staffing and so forth. There is no problem in getting staff to work in the Legal Aid Board. People are apparently very anxious and happy to work there. The level of morale is surprisingly high. I have to say how impressed I was by the professionalism and dedication not only of the solicitor staff but of all the staff working in the law centres.

I set about effecting major change in the structure of the law centres because I found a rather surprising situation when I took over responsibility for the area. The centres had no provision for and never had law clerks; and they never had, and apparently were not allowed to have, apprentices. From my experience in that area, I believe that both law clerks and apprentices have important key roles to play in the administration of any law office and that no law office would be complete without them. There were some difficulties to be overcome both on the union and Law Society side in connection with the apprentices. It took quite a bit of consultation and negotiation to overcome those difficulties, but we did overcome them. The working unit in each of the law centres is, in my view, perfectly structured as an ideal law unit should be. It includes solicitor staff, the law clerk, the apprentice and the administrative support staff. This perfect ideal module is now in place in most law centres.

The Legal Aid Board has responsibility for value for money and I believe they are doing a good job. They are subject to the Committee on Public Accounts, who look at the day to day administration, and the Comptroller and Auditor General also has a role to play.

I did not mention the divorce date again. I have been through that on a previous committee and in Question Time quite recently. The position is unchanged; 30 November remains the target date but is subject to the constraints I outlined at Question Time in the last week or so. There was no need to mention it again as the position has not changed.

I take the point made by Deputy Fitzgerald and Deputy Woods about the possibility of a one-stop-shop involving the law centres and the mediation centres. I am certainly prepared to look at and consider the idea at the next phase of expansion of the family mediation service. I am not entirely convinced that there is an analogy between it and the FÁS-Department of Social Welfare situation to which Deputy Woods referred. It probably would have more force in the FÁS/Department of Social Welfare context. They are separate services and arguments could be made for having them quite distinct and separate.

Many people who get involved in mediation do so to keep away from law, lawyers and law services and to do their job through the mediation method. That is the object of the exercise. At the same time, I do not rule it out. It would have to be considered and there certainly would be economies of scale. It did not really arise in connection with Limerick as it would have meant moving the Limerick Law Centre, which has fine and very satisfactory offices, to an even bigger office which would have accommodated both. The time scale and so on would not have permitted that, as I did not want to cause any disruption. However, I certainly do not rule it out. I take the point being made by the Deputies and I will certainly consider it at the appropriate time.

I understand that Carlow is a part-time law centre serviced from Waterford.

Dr. Woods

There are some part-time TDs down there too.

Mr. Taylor

I do not know about that.

Dr. Woods

I have seen the amount of time the Deputy spends at committee meetings here. He is a very diligent committee member.

Mr. Taylor

I will not say anything about that. The FLAC grant is the same as it. was last year. This is reasonable having regard to the huge increase in the availability of law centres in the Dublin area provided for both this year and last year. That is where the bulk of the money should go in my view. FLAC does very valuable work and I am happy to give some support to it.

Ms Keogh

With regard to the grants for the marriage counselling services, the Minister said that 54 organisations received moneys in 1994 and 58 will receive money this year. This means that some of the agencies will get less than they got last year as the total amount is the same. Does the Minister have a breakdown on that?

Chairman

We are coming on to that now.

Ms. Keogh

I am sorry. I thought we were including it. I beg your pardon.

Dr. Woods

We sort of included it.

Ms Keogh

We kind of talked about it.

Chairman

We will move on to discuss subheads E, F, G and H now. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Taylor

The Deputy is quite right. Some will get more and some will get less. It varies and depends on the circumstances. Some expand the service and others do not. The extent of the service being provided by each organisation is examined as it may not be the same from one year to the next. The best possible figure is allocated to each one within the overall constraint. The grants are not all identical to last year. There will be a variation in some of them.

Ms Keogh

I cannot say that every single agency should at least have what they had last year. I accept that the extent of the service might be more limited or that the Minister might not have found it to be as satisfactory as it might otherwise have been. However, it is disappointing because these are voluntary agencies. This really maddens me. The trouble is that many voluntary agencies, particularly women's organisations, are run on cake sales and so on. It is very disappointing. I will not comment further without knowledge of the individual bodies or agencies receiving moneys.

I know what it is like to work in voluntary agencies and I know how disheartening it can be trying to raise money. We all know in political terms how difficult it is to raise money. Women are involved in these organisations and women do not have money. It is much more difficult for a woman to raise money and it is very disappointing. I cannot be critical because I do not know the individual bodies, but there must be many women around the country who will be very disappointed and disheartened.

Mr. Taylor

I would not accept that at all. We have increased the amount for marriage counselling by 150 per cent. Those organisations were certainly very disappointed at what they got from previous Governments, which was a pittance in comparison with the huge increase in funding provided by both this and the last Government. An increase of over 150 per cent has enabled them to hugely expand their services, train more counsellors, take on new premises and new staff and greatly increase the number of hours available.

They would, of course, accept more money if it was available; but at all times I have to bear in mind the strictures of Deputy Ahern. I am sure Deputy Keogh's Finance spokesperson says the same thing. Notwithstanding that, we have recognised the huge need and importance here and that is why we have made this major expansion. As a result, 58 organisations are, if not very happy, certainly reasonably happy with the funding provided. The amount that any individual organisation may receive year after year will vary. It depends on the budgetary funds available in each year. It will depend on the level of counselling hours provided and will deal with the training provided. Each one is determined in that context, having regard to what counselling is being carried out. Some of the organisations are exclusively dedicated to marriage counselling. Others deal with a broader range of activities which are not within the ambit of these grants. One may give a larger emphasis in a certain year to other aspects of their work as distinct from the marriage counselling grant. That would affect the level of grant they receive, which is solely for marriage counselling purposes.

The funding of marriage counselling has changed out of all recognition since I took over this Department. I accept that it was totally underfunded previously. It has been changed and I expect to secure the maximum from it in the future. Regardless of whether or not there is a divorce referendum, this is important work because it is aimed at the protection of the family. This Government and the previous Labour/Fianna Fáil administration recognised for the first time the importance of providing funding of this nature for legal aid, mediation and counselling. These large, increased sums have been provided for that purpose. I hope that will continue.

Chairman

Any further comments on subheads E, F, G or H?

Dr. Woods

The report of the task force on travellers is expected in July. It will be very welcome. There is a substantial increase in relation to childcare. Deputy Keogh was concerned about it occurring here rather than in the area of Health. However, I can see how it is related to employment opportunities and enabling parents who have to work to do so. It will be interesting to see how that develops. Has it been committed yet? It has been advertised, but how much has been committed to date?

Mr. Bernard McDonagh (Secretary of Department of Equality and Law Reform)

To date, £450,000 has been paid.

Dr. Woods

How much?

Mr. Taylor

A figure of £450,000 has been paid. How many organisations are involved?

Mr. McDonagh

We are talking about 70 organisations.

Mr. Taylor

Approximately 70 organisations are involved.

Mr. McDonagh

Not all of them would have received money yet.

Dr. Woods

They have received approval.

Chairman

The common thread contained in these subheads is the protection of the family. Minister, in your earlier comments on the forthcoming Domestic Violence Bill, you stated that the concept of a barring order is being extended to a wider class of persons, including co-habitants. It seemed that there was something of a constitutional difficulty regarding that extension. However, we look forward to that debate. I am concerned about the overall conflict your Department would appear to have between the Constitution on one hand and human rights on the other. As Deputy Keogh stated this happened with the Matrimonial Home Bill. It appears likely that it will occur with the Bill on domestic violence, where there is a constant conflict between property rights and ? rights.

Does the Minister have a comment to make with regard to this issue? It appears that he will bring forward a Domestic Violence Bill with a proposal to extend barring orders to co-habitants and sons and brothers who cause difficulties within their families. It is important to note that domestic violence is the only crime I can think of where the victim has to live with the perpetrator until a hearing takes place. A period of four weeks or two months for the legal aid centre has been mentioned. It can often be a further two to three months until the hearing. That Bill will be very welcome. Will it be published before the summer recess?

Mr. Taylor

I hope to have it published quite soon. In that context I can inform the committee that in cases of violence none of those waiting list periods has any relevance whatsoever. Cases of an urgent nature are taken on immediately, as a matter of principle. Where there is a need for urgency or a violent situation exists, there is no waiting list in any of the law centres. They are dealt with immediately as a matter of priority.

With regard to the childcare issue, 73 organisations have been provisionally approved for funding, subject to compliance with certain conditions specified by ADM. The grants can amount to anything up to £65,000. There are 73 organisations who are likely to be grant-aided this year in respect of childcare.

I hope to publish the Domestic Violence Bill quite soon, possibly before the summer recess. It will deal with co-habitants within the existing constitutional restraints. You are quite correct, Chairman. There are constitutional restraints which arise in that area. We have to accept that fact. It does impinge on the work of my Department in many respects. The Matrimonial Home Bill was another case where the Constitution impinged on what the Department, and all parties in the Oireachtas, wanted to do. We have to operate within the constraints of the Constitution, based on the advice we receive. We will proceed on that basis with regard to the Domestic Violence Bill also.

Dr. Woods

Are we dealing with the subheads down to I?

Chairman

Yes.

Dr. Woods

With regard to subhead J, the UN Conference on Women, could the Minister give the committee a breakdown of how he sees the £100,000 provided for that area being spent? I know it involves his leading a delegation. What will the average cost per head be for members of that delegation?

Mr. Taylor

I could not really say that until after the conference. The sum which has been allocated will be required. I want to use it to the best possible advantage. Apart from governmental representation involved, there is also the NGO forum. I want key Irish NGOs to be represented at the NGO forum, which is also part of the Beijing operation. The details are being finalised. I do not have a specific breakdown on how it will work. That will arise ex post facto.

Dr. Woods

It must be based on some estimate of the cost per head.

Mr. Taylor

It is only an estimate.

Dr. Woods

What is the estimate? That is how the estimate is made up in the first instance.

Mr. Taylor

The figure is rounded off. I do not know if we have an actual figure, I believe it is in the region of £4,000.

Dr. Woods

For how long, approximately?

Mr. Taylor

For the duration of the conference, which is two weeks.

Ms Keogh

With regard to subhead O, Grant in Respect of European Conference of Women Elected Representatives. Is that a straight grant or do we have an input into its organisation?

Mr. Taylor

The Fifth European Conference of Women Elected Representatives on Local and Regional Authorities is due to take place in Dublin between 6 July and 8 July. The organising committee is headed by Councillor Bennett and they are responsible for the preparations. This money will be paid out on foot of vouched expenditure. It is a once off grant.

Dr. Woods

The other subheads are self-explanatory. Tremendous work is being done by the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. It has been discussed at great length on previous occasions. Earlier, I mentioned the divorce referendum and the importance of providing balanced presentation. I do not know how the Minister will do this. It will be partly done by RTE if a forum or discussion is held which includes a balance of differing views. Due to the nature of the referendum, the Minister should consider how he will spend the money he is allocated to ensure that all questions are asked and answered in an objective way.

I do not know if it will be possible for the Minister to organise any particular kind of forum or whether he plans to do so. As he will know, there have been calls for money to be allocated to, if you like, the opposing side. I endorse the fact that the Government must take the lead and is putting forward the case. However, in putting forward that case, the Government has a particular responsibility to ensure that the issue is dealt with objectively because of the importance of a referendum decision. It must be ensured that the questions asked by those opposed to the change will be dealt with in a very open way, in the literature, that they will be answered and that an opportunity will be provided for people to make their views known. People's concerns would, therefore, be satisfied, by the way in which the issue was dealt with.

Ms Keogh

Does the Minister intend to wait until a definite date has been set for the referendum before this money is spent? Regardless of whether the target date is met or not, there is a major issue involved with regard to information. There will be a greater need for information in the run-up to the referendum. I agree that any debate should be a balanced one and no side should believe their view is the completely correct one.

There is also the issue of what has been done by the Minister's Department. The people view much of what is involved as legalistic or boring law; they do not realise how much it impinges on all of our lives. There is quite a gap with regard to information. The Minister's Department has produced some literature, but people are not aware, even those who one would assume are up to date on the legislation that is in place. There are people whom I consider to be generally well informed wo do not have a clue. When I spoke to people about the legislation we have dealt with over the past year, they asked the most amazingly ignorant questions, ignorant in the sense that they did not have any information. There is a broader issue with regard to information. In terms of the Minister's wishes to have a successful conclusion to the referendum, that it would be passed, there is a case to be made for obtaining that money now and using it. That money was in the Estimate for last year and was in the Estimate for last year and was ? do not if it is tied by some sort of ? limit to a divorce referendum ?

Mr. Taylor

As Deputy Keogh has stated, there is a sizeable information deficit. The purpose of this allocation is to address that deficit. The exact method and timing to be used will have to be considered and worked out. The bulk of it will obviously be used during the referendum campaign, when the actual vote is approaching and people's minds will be focused on the subject in question. The decision will be made at the appropriate time. The provision of funding for information leading up to any referendum has become relatively standard in Ireland. The opposition side, as they are referred to, have their own funding arrangements. As I recall, there was no shortage of funding in 1986 from their point of view. It is not a question of conducting some kind of competition or debate on this issue.

All parties in Dáil Éireann are agreed that, regrettable though it may be, a divorce jurisdiction is now necessary in Ireland. There may be variations as to what extent it should be recorded in the Constitution, dealt with by law or whether it should be based on a separation period of three, four or five years. However, I believe that all parties are agreed on the overriding basic principle that we must now provide for that jurisdiction in Ireland. There is an information gap. It is difficult to say to what extent we will be able to address that gap. We will do our best with the resources available for that purpose. We will give information on all aspects of the position in the best way possible. A tentative start has been made by producing a preliminary leaflet, which the Deputy has seen. We will possibly prepare another one before too long. The bulk of the issue will be dealt with when the exact date of the referendum is known and the campaign gets underway.

Ms Keogh

Leaving politics aside, that information deficit, particularly in a new Department, is not helpful to the Minister's work or in the run-up to the divorce referendum. Perhaps the Minister could consider this issue. I have no difficulty about money being spent on the dissemination of information. I know it is being done, but I believe the Minister should make more of it. There is nothing political in that because it is to everyone's benefit. Perhaps that could be taken on board in next year's Estimates. The leaflet which has been prepared has been helpful, but I believe everyone should have it. The more information the Department can provide about what has been done and what is the legal situation in relation to family law in Ireland, the better it will be for all of us.

Dr. Woods

I support Deputy Keogh. The point she was trying to make is not just a question about the information and the campaign. The campaign is much longer. It has been my experience that people do not appreciate what has been done and what has changed. There would be much benefit in proceeding with that programme at this stage, even if the target date of 30 November fails and it runs into next year.

A lot of ground work needs to be done to get across to people an understanding of the fact that we are essentially talking about remarriage. A lot of things have been put in place and a lot of the legislation has been passed. Therefore, the initial leaflet is welcome in that respect. I suppose we are saying that we would not hesitate to spend some of that money now, because communicating the information and an understanding of the position is a considerable problem.

I congratulate the Minister and the staff of the Department on the work they are doing but we would not be doing our job if we were to come here today and say that the Minister is doing a great job and not try to tease things out and give him the benefit of our views. I found that helpful and Deputy Browne, who specialised in carers, was always very forthcoming with his views on various things. That is helpful to a Minister and to a Department when looking forward. It is important to be open in that way. It is in that spirit that we make any criticisms, suggestions or ideas.

I congratulate the Minister and his Department on what they have achieved to date. They have always been courteous and helpful and we appreciate that. The Department has a heavy volume of legislation in hand. If the Minister believes it is heavy for him and his Department with its 65 staff, he can imagine what it is like for us on this side of the House because we must keep up. We do not have all these brilliant officials to help us.

Chairman

The Deputy had them for long enough.

Dr. Woods

We are happy to support the Estimate today.

Ms Keogh

I support the Estimate; but I, and I am sure the Minister, wishes it was more. It is always the same; Ministers must do battle for their own Departments. Notwithstanding the arguments or disagreements we may have, the work of the Department of Equality and Law Reform is important and I pay tribute to the work of the officials of the Department. I am impressed by the volume of work done by a small team.

One of the difficulties for the Department relates to the issue of women. I was delighted to hear Deputy Woods talking about the appointment of women in the Civil Service at higher levels, which is essential. I am glad that the Minister cannot get the same criticism he got last year when he was accused of bringing phalanxes of men with him. I hope that is indicative of his openness — I am sure it is.

Any of the criticisms that I hold come from a deep commitment to equality. Whatever my views on the terms and so on of the divorce referendum, it is my wholehearted wish that we see a successful conclusion to it. The Minister may have had a view that Opposition parties in 1986 had plenty of money, but we did not and we were out campaigning. We still have no money, but I hope we will be out campaigning.

Mr. Kenneally

I add my voice of support to the Estimate. As the previous speaker said, we would like it to be a little more. I congratulate the Minister and his staff, who have done atremendous amount of work since the Department was established. The number of staff at the Department has increased from 60 to 65 and perhaps next year it will increase a little more. There was a genuine realisation among the last Administration and this one of the importance of this area. For the first time efforts are being made to tackle disadvantage among those who are less fortunate than ourselves. This Department will play a vital role in the future.

As regards the Legal Aid Board I am sure we have all met people caught in various situations and who could not get help at our clinics over the past number of years. However, the long waiting ? have now been wiped out That ? would have been a tremendous achievement for this Department, but it ? achieved so much more. I hope that will continue in the future.

Mr. Taylor

I wish to express my thanks and appreciation to Deputies and the Chairman for their comments. I do not regard anything Deputies said as criticism, but as helpful comments. I am happy to take on board the helpful suggestions and comments made on all the areas of responsibility of the Department. It is good to know that a new Department, which had to ? up from scratch has made ? headway in a relatively short time. That would not have been possible without the help, guidance and hard work of the secretary and the staff of the Department and I am glad Deputies referred to that. I appreciate their help and support throughout. I welcome our ongoing relationship with Deputies and I look forward to continue the workings of the Department with them. I look forward to their support on the divorce referendum, which we all believe is necessary in Ireland. I hope that when we meet again this time next year it will be successfully concluded.

Chairman

I thank the Minister, the secretary of the Department and the officials for giving their time, expertise and advice to the committee when dealing with the various questions and matters which arose.

We will meet the Minister for Equality and Law Reform during the summer recess because the Legal Aid Bill will be dealt with by the committee, as will the Domestic Violence Bill, if published before the recess. At present we are considering the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, 1995. I am trying to arrange a date to deal with it next week, because it is important that we conclude Committee Stage of that Bill prior to the summer recess. The convenors will be in contact with members on that.

The Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995, has just been referred to the select committee and it will have to be considererd over the next few weeks. It is probable that two more Bills may be referred to us before the end of June, so we will have a busy time during the summer recess.

The Select Committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Friday, 9 June 1995.