I thank Members for electing me to the Chair in a temporary capacity. I wish to convey the apologies of the Chairman, Deputy Pattison, who has been unavoidably delayed in London Airport but he may be here before the meeting concludes. We have a quorum. A suggested timetable was circulated today but, because of circumstances beyond our control, and following a brief meeting in the Chamber, we agreed to endeavour to complete the Estimate for the Department of Education in half an hour. If we cannot, we will have to run into the time allocated to Social Welfare. I am entirely in the Committee's hands on that.
Vote 26—Office of the Minister for Education (Supplementary Estimate).
Vote 27 — First-Level Education
(Supplementary Estimate).
Vote 28 — Second-Level Education
(Supplementary Estimate).
Vote 29 — Third-Level Education
(Supplementary Estimate).
I propose we should try to conclude within the half hour by having opening speeches lasting five minutes each by the spokespersons and questions and answers after that.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Thank you, Chairman, for facilitating us on this historic day. In view of what Deputy Higgins proposed, if Members would like additional information they feel they have not obtained, due to the time constraints we have placed on ourselves, they may contact me and do not have to do so officially through the House.
I welcome the opportunity of discussing my Department's Estimates. The provision for the Education Vote is nearly £1.792 million. I am seeking approval for four Supplementary Estimates amounting to £15.485 million, made up of £1.08 million for the Office of the Minister for Education; £3.13 million for first level education; £1.055 million for second level and further education; and £10.22 million for third level and further education. This represents less than 1 per cent of the gross provision so it is not an extraordinarily big Supplementary Estimate.
The Estimate of £1.08 million is required on the Vote of the Office of the Minister for Education. An additional £500,000 is required for the school transport system, mainly to meet the cost of higher than expected insurance claims. An extra £750,000 was needed for the programme of major sports facilities to fund the cost of existing and new projects, and an additional 15 projects will be assisted under the revised programme. I am also seeking an additional £80,000 to provide for the costs of the national education convention whose proceedings have concluded. The secretariat are still preparing their final report. I have already indicated in response to a parliamentary question that the exact cost of the convention will only be available following the full extent of its time commitment. I am fairly confident that in requesting £80,000 we are not being overgenerous. Expenditure for the offset by savings of £250,000 on the provision of consultancy services was due to progress on a project to computerise the administration of the ESF-funded training programmes being slower than anticipated.
The Supplementary Estimate for first level education is £3,130,000. That is the additional cost of lump sums for retiring teachers, teachers' pensions and ex-gratiawidows’ pensions falling due for payment in 1993. The costs that may need to be increased involve the number of retirees and the increase in the average rate of lump sums payable. This additional expenditure is, of course, offset by increased receipts of £470,000 in respect of primary teachers’ superannuation contributions and a saving of £1.1 million expected on primary school teachers’ salaries.
On the Vote for second level and further education a Supplementary Estimate of £1,055,000 is required. An additional £460,000 was sought for the running costs of community and comprehensive schools. This is needed for the pay costs of additional full-time and eligible part-time teachers because of increased enrolments and the opening of some new schools. The provision of the annual non-capital grants to vocational education for the same reasons is seeking a sum of £760,000. A greater number of teachers is needed for a higher than anticipated number of ESF-aided courses which I particularly welcome. The capital expenditure on second level schools to meet building grants and capital costs in respect of secondary, vocational, comprehensive and community schools is expected to exceed the budget Estimate by £2 million. With some projects the contractual commitment came in earlier than planned which meant the building was progressing at a faster pace and this has to be welcomed. That meant increasing pressure on available resources from this year's budget rather than the runon one would expect from next year's budget. Additional prefabricated classrooms were also needed where we have local bulges and must react quickly to that need. Provision is set to cover emergency costs but a greater number occurred at second level than anticipated, thus putting further pressure on the provision. The additional expenditure is offset by increased receipts of £2,165,000 which arose from higher than anticipated superannuation contributions from teachers, and we had a surplus of receipts from the ESF fund.
On the Vote for third level and further education a Supplementary Estimate of £10,220,000 is being sought. An additional £600,000 is needed to provide the costs of fees and maintenance grants for third level students under the Higher Education Authority grant scheme. This points to a success in the Government's policy of encouraging students with the necessary aptitudes, abilities and commitments to proceed to third level. Because the Higher Education Authority grants are means tested, it is not always possible to forecast accurately the number of students who will qualify but due to an overall increase in student numbers and improvement in the grants for 1992 the number eligible for grant aid continues to grow. To give some examples, the higher education grant was awarded to 15,211 students in the 1991-92 year and to 18,664 in the 1992-93 year. Numbers reached 21,500 in the 1993-94 academic year which is not dramatic or as high as we might all hope but figures are rising steadily.
An additional sum of £1 million is needed to provide for increased cost of fees and maintenance awards payable to students who receive funding under the vocational education committee scholarships scheme. We are expanding the higher education grants scheme but we continue to fund students under the vocational education committee scholarship scheme.
Because of Private Members' time in another Chamber, I am here without the Minister of State; we are covering two places.
Higher education authority institutions need £2.24 million to address the cost pressures created by increased student numbers, to provide for an ASF funded pilot project for the restructuring of the primary degree courses in universities and to meet the additional cost of certain retirement lump sums and superannuation payments. The supplementary provision of £2 million is required to meet the additional non-pay running costs of the regional technical colleges, the Dublin Institute of Technology and certain vocational education committee colleges arising from a very significant growth in student enrolment.
Since 1987 full-time enrolment in this sector has increased by over 50 per cent. A further increase of about 3,000 students is anticipated for 1993-94. The additional provision is required to meet costs arising in relation to accommodation rental, increased maintenance, class materials, equipment, heat, light and power. Provision is also necessary under this Vote to meet payments for approved investments which it was envisaged would be funded from receipts from the European Social Fund. At this stage of the year there is a shortfall of £4 million but we are not seeking that in the Estimate. Further appropriations-in-aid are expected and when received will reduce the actual charge on the Exchequer, with the additional moneys being returned as savings. I commend the Supplementary Estimates to this committee.
Looking at the different subheadings the sum of £35,654,000 for Transport Services is a substantial amount of money by any standards and we should look seriously at the quality of these services. There has been a marked deterioration in school transport in recent years on a number of counts. Because of cutbacks some school buses are now doing two and three runs daily. That is fine from an economical point of view but it means that some children have the longest working day in the country, being picked up a 7.30 a.m. and not brought home until 5.30 p.m. In many cases they arrive at school 35 to 40 minutes before the school opens and are left in the school yard up to half an hour after school before being collected.
Under these circumstances an unacceptable mix of ages may travel on one bus; four year old junior infants may be mixing with 18 year old leaving certificate students. For obvious reasons that is not acceptable.
I note that the Estimate includes a figure in the region of £500,000 for increased insurance claims. A growing number of school buses are fit for the scrapheap only. They are substandard and are continually being repaired. There will be a major bill to be faced at some stage.
Grants for the provision of major sports facilities, funded from the national lottery amount to £4,250,000. The additional sum required in this case is £750,000. It came as a bombshell recently to learn that we would not be proceeding with the international standard swimming pool. A specific promise was made in the run up to the general election by Labour and by Fianna Fáil that each party would commit itself to this project. Part of the cement that helped to bind the Coalition together was the international sports stadium project. It was included in the Programme for a Partnership Government which stated:
Sports policy will be an integral part of the Government's education and health policies. We will provide a 50 metre national indoor swimming pool up to international competition standards in joint venture with the private sector.
The scrapping of the project was a major blow particularly to the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, who for the best part of 40 years had been lobbying for an adequate swimming facility to enable them to provide up to date training and competition facilities to enable our competitors to compete with the best abroad. We all thought when the national lottery began that it was only a matter of time until this would be delivered upon and that the success of European silver medalist Gary O'Toole would provide the stimulus. In view of the fact that 12 companies had tendered for this project it is a major disappointment that it will not be going ahead.
In relation to first level education money is sought to cover teachers' salaries, superannuation, pensions, lump sums, short term gratuities and various other items. In the second week of April at two conferences the Minister made a clear commitment to introduce an early retirement scheme. We have seen the body of findings which exist to support this proposal and there is evidence of major burnout among teachers. There are many teachers with 30 and 35 years' service who have ten or five years to go to retirement and who are simply not capable of coping with the demands of the modern classroom. On the other hand there exists many highly qualified, highly motivated young teachers who are dying to get into the system. It would make ecomomic sense to take somebody out of the top end of a 26 increment scale where the salary is £23,000 and to allow somebody else in at the bottom end at £11,000. I know there are problems with gratuities and with lump sums, etc. but I believe that the teacher unions would be amenable to some kind of modified deal in this regard and it should be looked at seriously.
At second level, provision of £460,000 is requested. I would like to focus on the question of materials, the bulk of which are used for home economics, art, woodwork and metalwork. I raised in the Dáil two weeks ago with the Minister of State the fact that as we approach the new year 20,000 home economic students, 25,000 woodwork students, 15,000 music students and 15,000 art students are facing into the junior certificate and still do not know what kind of a practical examination they will face. That is not good enough. They do not know the kind of goalposts they are aiming at or where the goalposts are located and that is doing irreparable damage. It may seem to be an exaggeration to say so because not everything hinges on the junior certificate but to schoolchildren the two big examinations in their lives are the two Government certificate examinations and the fact that at this stage they have not received an indication of the kind of practical examinations they will be taking in June is a serious indictment. I want directions to go out to schools within the next few days.
This state of affairs is also doing irreparable damage to the process of assessment. We have been urging teacher unions collectively to adopt school based assessment or external assessment but at this stage teacher and pupil morale with regard to practical examinations has been lowered as a result of the failure to despatch this information. In relation to third level education, no provision has been made for the Castlebar Regional Technical College. The Minister referred to one year courses. There is a desire in Castlebar for two year certificate or diploma courses. Four weeks ago the Taoiseach, with or without the Minister's knowledge, when opening Hope House in Foxford, County Mayo, stated that certificate courses would be available next September. There now seems to be no indication this can be implemented. I have truncated my comments, but that is generally the tenor of the remarks I wish to make.
There will be a sense of déja vu by the time I am finished because the points Deputy Higgins raised are those anybody would raise with the Minister. For that reason I will be briefer than Deputy Higgins. He spoke about transport services. Will the additional £500,000 be a once-off payment? Is it being paid because of the conditions of the service and the buses? Could we have a breakdown of exactly how this figure is compiled? I agree with Deputy Higgins that there are grave deficiencies in the service, of which the Minister is well aware. All this does is give us the opportunity to identify the needs of the service and to be given an explanation of why the insurance claims were higher than expected. I hope this is not due to factors such as faulty steering on some of the buses because that is exactly what we are talking about in some instances.
In relation to the additional £750,000 for the provision of major sports facilities, what is the breakdown of the facilities provided to boys and girls in schools?
An Olympic size swimming pool is an ongoing issue. The Minister knows that in our constituency, Newpark Comprehensive School had hoped they would be the lucky recipients of funding to enable them to have such a pool. They embarked on a very lengthy campaign but, like others who had such aspirations, they are disappointed. They, like many others, wish to know if we will ever have such a pool. The amateur swimming organisations are battling all the time against the odds. As we all know, it is impossible to reach levels of achievement when one does not have the basic facility of a proper sized pool. In pools in Ireland swimmers have to turn twice to swim the equivalent distance of swimmers in Olympic size pools elsewhere who turn only once. The absence of such pools is a major disappointment for many swimmers and for those who wish to improve our standards, which are high considering our lack of facilities.
I welcome the subvention in relation to the education convention. I congratulate the Minister on holding it, despite what I said about other issues last night.
In relation to teachers' superannuation, I remember debating long and hard the vexed question of an early retirement scheme with Ministers over the years. Those of us who are teachers and experienced the horrors of some classrooms realise that, unfortunately, in many instances teaching is for young people and for those whose powers are at their peak rather than diminishing. We must pursue this issue. I agree with Deputy Higgins that there is an openness on the part of the teachers' unions. Such a scheme would make sense in many ways. Not least, it would allow for the appointment of new, enthusiastic, recently qualified teachers and create a degree of mobility which is extremely important. Lack of mobility leads to stagnation, not only at primary level but throughout the education system.
I will conclude by speaking about the second level and further education Votes. Yesterday I spoke to the Department about the difficulty in relation to practical examinations as part of the Junior Certificate. My daughter is doing her Junior Certificate next year. She is not studying home economics, but a number of her friends are. The difficulties have been brought home to me by children down the street asking me what will happen, I do not have an answer for them. This is unfair and the Minister should be concerned about it. Children need to know exactly what they will be doing. Some of them will shortly be doing their mock exams. It is very unfair to have children of 14 years of age in this quandary as to whether they will be assessed on practical tests. The latest word I have is they probably will be. Therefore, schools should progress on the assumption that practical tests will take place and pupils will be evaluated on them. Teachers have no idea how this will happen, they have received no papers or any indication of how they should accede to any requests to assess. I plead with the Minister — I know she will be very open — on a purely human, practical level to inform people as soon as possible.
There are no representatives present from the Technical Group. For the next five minutes I will allow Members to put questions to the Minister.
As the Fine Gael spokesperson on Social Welfare I have no objection if this time is extended a little. Many of the issues I would have wished to raise were dealt with in Private Members' Business last week. I do not wish to be repetitive so the time I require will be limited. This may be of help to other Members. The Minister stated that because of limitations on time, if we wished to submit questions to her, she would try to provide all the necessary information.
I raised with the Department of Education the issue of school transport for handicapped children who travel to and from special schools but I received no response. The question of escorts on buses for those children must be dealt with sooner rather than later. The Brennan report contains recommendations to the Minister. I would ask the Minister to make an immediate decision in relation to escorts for those buses because of the alleged incident in Cork. The gardaí will be dealing with the criminal side of that incident but what appalled me most was the manner in which the parents and children were left high and dry by all of the public bodies that should deal with issues like this.
In the Dáil last Thursday I raised this issue. I also raised it with the Minister's Office on 25 November through the private secretary when I was promised an imediate reply from the Minister of State's Office the following day. Twelve days later — even though I asked that the matter be brought to the Minister's attention — I had not received a reply either from the Minister's or from the Minister of State's office. In the meantime the matter was being passed on like a hot potato from one body to another. These bodies included the health board, a voluntary group, Bus Éireann, and the Department of Education whose local officials were placed in an invidious position. Twelve days later when I raised it again I was told I would get a decision.
On Tuesday of last week after a debate in the Dáil on gaelscoileanna I brought it again to the Minister of State's attention. He told me it was the first he had heard of it. There is some fault in the lines of communication within the Department if that was the first time the Minister of State had heard of it. In the Dáil on Thursday he then tried to give the impression that I had not given him enough time to deal with the issue, claiming that he had only heard of it on Tuesday night and that it was unfair of me to raise it on the Adjournment two days later. The Minister of State gave the wrong impression in public, despite the fact that a letter from his private secretary to some of the parents involved, dated 25 November, acknowledged a submission from them. There is something wrong when the Minister's and the junior Minister's offices fail to respond to an appalling incident. The Minister of State tried to give the impression on Thursday that the matter had been resolved but that is not so. The parents are now taking turns to act as escorts and an incident arose as to who would pay the £3 taxi fare home for the parent after escorting the children for two hours on the bus. Surely there should be a more prompt response from the Department on issues like this.
I would like the Minister to correct the wrong impression given by the junior Minister in the House last Thursday. The parents are now acting as escorts but will only do so until the Christmas break next week. Some of the children are refusing to go on the bus. The bus company would not change the bus involved in the incident and the sight of the bus has a traumatic effect on the children.
I have given you sufficient latitude. We are straying away from the Estimate.
I was hoping that today in the Supplementary Estimate we would have some provisions for escorts on school transport. This would have been the opportunity for the Minister to give a real response as to why there is no such provision.
We will await the Minister's reply.
(Laoighis-Offaly): In comparison with the overall budget of the Department the Supplementary Estimate is relatively small although it amounts to millions of pounds. I compliment the Minister for securing a considerable increase under the Education heading not only for this year but also in next year’s Estimates and in particular for prioritising the most needy areas she outlined in her speech.
School transport is causing considerable concern. It is very expensive yet people are concerned about the safety of the buses in use. I am not referring to the case outlined by Deputy Allen but to the general question of the suitability of buses used for school transport and the numbers of children carried on them. I would like to know if the expected increase in insurance claims has anything to do with the adequacy of safety features on school buses.
In relation to subhead B.11. — grants for the provision of major sports facilities, national lottery funded — I welcome the fact that the amount is going up to £5 million. Is it possible for the Minister to make available to us the criteria according to which projects under this subhead are assessed and approved? I welcome the information which has been provided in the Estimates for the current year and for next year concerning the allocation of national lottery money to different Departments. I would like to know how soon after the submission of an application people can expect to receive an answer. In my area we have been fundraising for a pool for quite a while and we would appreciate clarification on the questions of criteria and time scale.
I support the allocation of money for the National Education Convention. Everybody who attended it was impressed with its method of operation, its neutrality and with the fact that the Department in its role as a participant made its own submission. Groups who attended it and who might have been sceptical in the beginning were very positive in their evaluation and I hope its report will be published soon. I am fully confident that the Minister will take prompt action to implement its recommendations.
I welcome the additional estimate for vocational education committees. Every meeting of my committee for the past few months has been given over almost totally to discussion of our dire financial situation. I hope this additional estimate will mean that at last my committee will be able to proceed with other items apart from finance.
I am disappointed to see provision for additional prefabricated classrooms in the Estimate. The Department of Education should be moving away from the use of prefabricated classrooms, they are not worth it on educational or economic grounds. I speak from my experience of teaching in prefabricated classrooms. They are not economically valid as they do not last very long and cost an enormous amount to maintain. They are totally unsuitable as classrooms as they are too hot in summer and too cold in winter. On three occasions in recent times such classrooms were offered to schools in South Tipperary and the offer was rejected. It would be a more positive and worthwhile approach by the Department of Education to offer a reasonable grant which could be supplemented by local management boards or committees in order to provide some type of permanent buildings. Many schools have good financial committees and would be prepared to back up a grant in order to provide a permanent building.
Regarding the estimate for the higher education grants scheme, I am not surprised that an additional sum is required but I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the point I raised last night in the Dáil when I said it is costing local authorities an enormous amount of money in interest to pay grants before the money is made available to them by the Department of Education. I gave the example that in South Tipperary last year it cost the local authority £100,000 in interest because payments had to be made before the money was made available by the Department of Education in January. The third section of the maintenance grant is paid in April and that money was not refunded until the following January. Local authorities cannot sustain this financial burden much longer. I requested the Minister last night to consider a three phase payment to local autorities at the commencement of each college term. It would reduce the financial burden which local authorities must bear because of the once-off payment to them by the Department of Education at a certain time of the year. I would like the Minister to respond in this regard.
Like my colleague, Deputy Higgins, who concentrated on Castlebar, County Mayo, I am disapponted the Estimate has not provided for a regional technical college in Thurles, County Tipperary. The county has no third level education college although it is one of the largest. We have pursued a vigorous campaign in this regard and I raise this matter now to ensure the Minister keeps Thurles on the priority list.
I welcome the Minister's announcement in relation to the appointment of remedial and resource teachers. This is important and I hope she will be able to get further resources to appoint additional teachers to a number of schools. Teachers share the work in a number of schools in rural areas and they are doing a good job. In some areas a classroom assistant is required where there might be difficulties with handicapped students, particularly in large classes. These appointments suggest that the Department of Education is pursuing a policy of integration for the handicapped and, perhaps, for travelling children. I hope this is true because integration works well and there should not be special classes for one section of the community.
Another area which has been brought to my attention in recent times concerns the visually impaired for whom there are two schools in Dublin and to which children from the west must go for their education. Parents would like a visiting teacher in every county and this is happening in County Galway at present. It is difficult for one person to visit national schools where there has been integration of visually impaired children. It is important to provide an assistant to help the visiting teacher for the visually impaired in each county or region. FÁS, and this is a strange phenomenon, has appointed people in some areas as classroom assistants, but I do not know if this is suitable. However, this is a matter for another Department. One of the problems with the FÁS scheme is that it is only for a 12 month period and that after 12 months one must train another person. I hope the appointment is for longer than 12 months, regardless of whether FÁS, the Department of Education or the Department of Health are involved.
Equipment for teaching Braille ordered by teachers in County Galway last July or August has not yet been delivered to the schools. The Department of Education must get the necessary Braille textbooks and equipment which cost approximately £1,500 per child. This would help the visually impaired children because they would not have to travel to Dublin at weekends. This is a traumatic experience and causes heartbreak for the families who must send them to Dublin. Perhaps the Minister could take these points on board.
I agree with my colleague, Deputy Kitt, about remedial teachers for rural areas. It would be easy for one remedial teacher to attend three rural schools. I hope the Minister will consider this matter.
I welcome the provision of £500,000 for school transport which is so important in rural areas, particularly on dark winter evenings when children often walk two miles on a country road after they get off a bus. If the bus service is organised by CIE and the road has been recommended by the bus inspector as being wide enough for a bus to turn, I ask the Minister to extend the school transport system for an extra mile or two, particularly on winter evenings. This would not cost a lot of money because the bus is already going a certain distance and the driver has been paid. We are talking about an extra four miles a day, although people would be happy with an extra mile and a half each morning and evening. The school bus has already been paid for. Private transport would cost the Department more money because its cost would be calculated per mile. I hope the Minister will favourably consider extending the school bus service provided by CIE, particularly in rural areas during the winter.
I have a number of queries for the Minister which may be repetitive, I missed the earlier speakers because I was taking part in the Dáil debate.
Caretakers employed on social employment schemes in a number of second level schools throughout my constituency worked satisfactorily during the last few years. However, they left when their 12 month term was completed and new caretakers had to be appointed. Has any progress been made in relation to Department funded caretakers for second level schools?
I hope there is some improvement in the Department's budget in 1994 for physical education facilities. I tabled a number of parliamentary questions recently in this regard, particularly in relation to a school in Youghal, County Cork, in my constituency. To prove I am not parochial, I am a member of the board of management of St. Aidan's Community School in Cork City which has approximately 800 to 900 pupils. I am invading Deputy Allen's territory in the north of the city. This is a successful school, but it is urgently in need of physical education facilities. Last night at the board meeting we were reminded that this request has been with the Department for over ten years. I hope the Minister will sanction a physical education room for St. Aidan's Community School, Dublin Hill, Cork, which is in the same area as the new school in Glanmire.
My final point is in relation to remedial teachers. I hope the Minister will make some progress in this area during 1994. Deputy Mulvihill and I made representations about a school in my constituency. Without mentioning the name of the school, I hope progress can be made in 1994. I apologise if I have been repetitive.
We appreciate that. We saw you on the monitor, therefore we knew you were busy in the other House.
I will not refer to questions by specific Deputies, but to the groups of questions asked. Many questions were asked about school transport. I inquired about the increase in the sums of money and insurance claims. This reflects the litigious nature of the nation. Bus Éireann has responsibility for maintaining and repairing the school bus fleet. It owns and leases a number of buses and it must ensure a certain safety standard. Some 400 buses of the 800 yellow buses have been replaced and there is a phased programme in operation to replace all of them.
On the escorts, I take Deputy Allen's point. I am satisfied at the moment that in that case there is an escort service in place. I am not saying that I am satisfied with it on a long term basis. On the previous Monday we had a special education convention where we discussed this special education report and at that meeting the subject of escorts came up. They can of course be funded out of the special education provision. We are talking here about a supplementary for transport.
I gave an undertaking at the special education conference that we will be implementing the short term, medium term and long term recommendations of that report, but there is an urgency about the escort question and in the new year I hope to resolve it.
On the question of lottery money and the 50 metre pool, I remind Members of a remark made by Deputy Higgins which was that the building of the pool would be carried out in a joint venture. There were, as he rightly said, a number of applications to the Department of Education but it was quite disappointing how generous the State side of the joint venture would have to be to ensure the project was begun. The debate on the training pool still remains but the association representing swimming clubs had a meeting with the Minister of State where they talked about the future provision of a pool. There was little joint venture capital coming from anywhere but the Minister's budget.
Deputy Gallagher asked about application guidelines. The criteria are the progress on the project to date, the level of local funding raised, whether the project is recreational or amenity, the benefit to the local community, an equitable geographical spread and organisers capable of spending the grants. The Deputy asked about the time scale. I have not got an answer to that question.
The large capital programme is now coming to a close and a new programme is being put together for 1994. Moneys that were spent in 1993 were in some cases actually agreed in 1988-89. There will now be a new tranche of programmes. Applications are being put together and those are the criteria.
On the question of gender equity raised by Deputy Keogh, extra projects are being set up and money was made available since I became Minister for all the women's hockey internationals. Clubs that have got money include athletic clubs, rowing clubs and recreation and sports facilities in Limerick. I am satisfied that at least half the projects will be of more benefit to women than to men. I will continue to keep the requirement in mind.
We have a long way to go to redress the balance.
It is on my agenda.
On the voluntary retirement question, at the teacher conferences I made the point that national school teachers have an opportunity to retire earlier under their scheme than teachers at second and third level. I said I would examine the possibility of a revised scheme for second and third level teachers. I know that teachers have lodged a joint claim to the teacher conciliation council. Discussions on that claim are taking place at the council but its proceedings are confidential so at this time I cannot comment but I am sure when I attend the next round of teacher conferences that I will be expected to comment.
On the second level, the guidelines for the junior certificate are being finalised with the unions. I take the point made and I recognise that it is a matter of anxiety but the final details will be made available as soon as they have been cleared.
On third level, Deputies mentioned various regional technical colleges and I remind them that a study is being carried out which will be reported to me in June. On the application for funding to Brussels, when that information becomes available we will again be looking for TVIs and BDIs and all sorts of things. We did not apply with specific names or locations in mind. On the question of additional places we will await the report of the study which is being carried out by the Higher Education Authority.
There is a temporary bulge in the provision of prefabs. It was suggested that we might not always have to provide a prefab and that an alternative arrangement could be made. In the last year some other arrangements have been made but, there are prefabs in Hartstown that are well worth looking at. There is a new type of prefab. The word prefab is sometimes an unfortunate one.
I hope I have covered the main areas of interest. I repeat my offer to give additional information on remedial teachers and caretakers on another occasion.
Thank you, Minister, for dealing with so much in so short a time. That concludes the consideration of these Supplementary Estimates. I thank you and your officials for your cooperation and the Members for the constructive way in which they dealt with the debate.
Vote 40—Social Welfare (Supplementary Estimate).
The Supplementary Estimate is for a sum not exceeding £1,000 to be granted to defray charges which have arisen in course of payment in the year ending 31 December 1993 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, for certain services administered by that office, for payments to the social insurance fund and for certain grants including a grant in aid. In line with the practice adopted in previous years, the Government has decided to make a number of once-off grants totalling £2 million to voluntary organisations providing services to the most needy in the community at this time of the year. The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to enable payment of those grants to be made under a new subhead in the Vote of my Department, thus ensuring compliance with Government accounting procedures.
I want to make it clear that the payment of these grants does not require additional money in my Department's Vote for this year, that is over and above the amount agreed by the Oireachtas. The amount of this Supplementary Estimate —£1,000 — is merely a token sum having regard to the fact that there are sufficient funds in the Social Welfare Vote this year to meet the costs involved.
In fact, the emerging outturn from my Department's Vote for this year shows a very encouraging position with overall savings on the original published Estimate amounting to some £102 million. Those savings were effected mainly through fewer people claiming unemployment payments, lower expenditure than expected on pensions, and a significant increase in income from PRSI contributions as a result of higher earnings, more people at work and a major payoff to the taxpayer due to improved compliance arising from the wider application of anti-fraud and abuse measures in operation since 1991.
Even when account is taken of additional expenditure items such as the 1993 Christmas bonus —£32 million — and the bringing forward from next year of certain equal treatment payments —£8 million — which were not provided for in the original published Estimates, there are still substantial savings available in the Vote to cater for the once-off grants approved by the Government.
Of the allocation of £2 million approved by the Government, £500,000 is being allocated to the Respite Care Fund, to bring the total fund to £1 million on a once-off basis this year, £1 million is being allocated to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the balance of £500,000 is being allocated to other voluntary bodies providing services to the needy in the community, details of which will be announced later.
I inaugurated the Respite Care Fund in the context of this year's budget and provided it with an initial allocation of £500,000. The purpose of the fund is to assist voluntary and community groups who provide in a variety of ways respite care facilities and services. The services and facilities provided may be for people who care full-time in the home for elderly people, for people with mental handicap or for people with disabilities, as well as respite breaks for those being cared for.
There was an overwhelming response to the establishment of the Respite Care Fund with voluntary organisations and community groups submitting projects amounting to over £3.2 million. Arising from that response and in recognition of the huge social need which the new fund will address, I went back to the Government and got approval for a further allocation of £500,000 on a once-off basis, bringing the total allocation for the Respite Care Fund announced in the budget to £1 million this year.
I established a consultative committee to advise on the approach to be taken and I would like to take the opportunity to express my appreciation to those who participated in the committee. They included the Disability Federation of Ireland, Cheshire Homes, the Soroptimists, the Rehabilitation Institute, the Irish Wheelchair Association, the Carers Association, St. Michael's House and the National Association for the Mentally Handicapped in Ireland.
Over 90 community and voluntary groups are benefitting from grants from the fund which I announced earlier this week. Among those are the Wheelchair Association, who receive £84,000 to provide over 300 families with respite breaks especially at this time of the year; St. Michael's House, who have been allocated £75,000 as a contribution to their community and home-based service for 30 people; the Carers Association, who get £40,000 in respect of a pilot homecare respite service; CASA (Caring and Sharing Association) who receive £40,000 for a weekend breaks project for adults and children with mental and physical handicap; and the Galway Association for Mentally Handicapped Children, who get £30,000 for in-home respite care projects and a pilot project located in Tuam.
As carers know only too well, the caring task is demanding, constant and, very often, thankless. Where care is being provided on a full-time basis, the prospect of a respite break can be a lifeline to the hard-pressed carer. I want to pay a sincere tribute to the imaginative and innovative approach adopted by the group submitting projects, all of which have responded magnificently to a vital social need. A full list was circulated to members of the committee earlier.
I am very pleased that one of the main beneficiaries of these once-off grants will be the Society of St. Vincent de Paul who, as last year, receive an allocation of £1 million. My Department has had over the years a very fruitful relationship with the society and I want to put on record my deep appreciation for the unstinting work done by them in practically every parish in the country. Everybody in the country knows the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. It is the major charitable organisation in Ireland. Its name is synonymous with the practical help and advice it provides to the needy and the disadvantaged in our community.
The Society has been in existence for almost 160 years and next year will celebrate 150 years of work in Ireland. Its first major involvement in this country was at the time of the Great Famine, during which its members devoted themselves to the relief of the starving. Since then, the society as an organisation has flourished and developed and continued to respond to the changing needs of Irish society. In recent years, its primary work of offering friendship and financial assistance has expanded into self-help programmes through job creation initiatives, home management and personal development courses. Today, the society has over 1,000 conferences and some 11,000 extremely active members across the country.
At any one time, the lives of over 200,000 Irish men, women and children are touched by the Society in some way or other. Weekly visits to the elderly living alone, to families in need of assistance and to patients in hospital amount to over 23,000 at any one time. The importance of this massive contribution can be gauged by the fact that the society caller may be the only visitor many of those people see from one week to the next.
As far back as the 1988 budget, I was very pleased to have been able to provide funding of £100,000 to the society to enable them to undertake a major nationwide programme of home management and personal development courses. That was a very valuable initiative with over 8,000 people successfully completing the courses to date. Participants have found the courses of immense value in confidence building, improved self-esteem and self-motivation. In addition, a further allocation of £100,000 was made to the society in December 1988 to help meet the exceptional demands that are made on their services over the Christmas period.
In 1990, a further £100,000 was allocated to the society to enable it to continue and to expand its courses. The development of personal skills among people living in disadvantaged areas is vital for themselves and their local communities. Many of the course participants may have left school early and may be lacking in essential life skills. As a result of the courses, many participants went on to successfully complete further education. The society itself regards those courses as its most effective strategy for helping families on low incomes to cope with their situation.
Arising from the success of the home management and personal development courses, the Government in 1990 gave a special allocation of £500,000 to the society to undertake a major development programme, including creating employment opportunities and undertaking various other projects. The job creation initiative was a novel approach on the part of the society.
The money allocated was earmarked for a special job creation programme in disadvantaged areas under the society's employment projects scheme. Deputies will have seen a television programme recently which related to the success of that scheme in the Tallaght area. The job creation programme included financial support in the early stages of business setup, guidance and encouragement, and contributions to community-based initiatives. To date, over 1,100 people have been helped in this way.
My Department is not just in the business of providing cash payments on a weekly basis to qualified recipients. We are also involved in the welfare of people in the broadest sense. Voluntary orgnisations have a major part to play in this regard. Many such organisations are working on a daily basis with social welfare clients and understand their needs and problems. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others have been to the fore in tackling those needs and problems.
I am delighted that the Government has found it possible to make this special allocation available for grants at this time of the year. I wish the organisations involved continued success in their very important work.
I commend this Supplementary Estimate for £1,000 to the committee.
We will not be opposing the Estimate. In the short time available to me, I note that the expenditure on some of the payments being made this year has dropped. Has this come about because of more severe procedures adopted by his Department in relation to people applying for benefits? My impression from speaking to people is that those who are applying for assistance and for benefits at a vulnerable time of their lives are being subjected to unreasonable scrutiny. It is becoming fashionable to accuse the unemployed and the sick of ripping off the system but I reject this and I think the Minister would confirm that the level of fraud is not as great as presented by some commentators.
I believe that some of the procedures adopted by the Department in recent times go beyond the level of acceptable behaviour. I refer specifically to the poor performance of some medical referees and to some of the procedures followed. One recent case that I had was a man who in order to prove his eligibility for unemployment assistance for over eight months had to get financial returns from his parents. Having established his eligibility he was then told that because he was ill and had not got medical clearance, he did not qualify anyway. I have had cases where people who appealed decisions of medical referees to the appeals board have had their appeals upheld only to be recalled within two or three months and put through the whole procedure again. That contitutes harassment of people who are victims of economic decisions made in this country.
I applaud the Minister's allocation of cheques to organisations that are dealing with people at the coal face of deprivation and who are victims of our economic policies. However, I worry about the danger of making voluntary groups dependent on the Department of Social Welfare. It may result in voluntary groups being afraid to question social policy in case their cheques are withdrawn. I worry about the Department developing the dependency factor in Irish society. If the Department is really genuine about eliminating poverty it should, with the Department of Education, involve itself in a more imaginative social policy to rid us of poverty at its most basic level, which is at primary school level. Many children nowadays go to school hungry dependent on the good nature of teachers who, at their own expense and trouble, feed the children before they begin teaching them. The Minister should tackle that problem with the help of his counterparts in the Department of Education.
It makes for big headlines when the Minister distributes cheques all over the place but a more enlightened approach is required to eliminate poverty in our society. I note what the Minister says about the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other societies which have made a magnificent social contribution this century. To ask the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to tackle poverty at source is asking far too much, especially when no realistic attempt is being made by Government to combat, for example, the loan shark operation which goes on in the period coming up to Christmas. We have been promised legislation on this by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Rourke but I wonder how far it will go? Loan sharks are now rampant, especially in urban areas; I am not familiar with rural constituencies. At this time of the year when children's expectations are raised by television, magazines and newspapers parents are ideal targets for the loan shark operation. Poverty at its most basic must be tackled and I do not believe we have an adequate understanding of the true extent and depth of poverty. I would also ask the Minister to look at the antifamily antisocial element in the social welfare code. I raised this last week in the Dáil.
I finally ask the Minister what he proposes to do about errant spouses, mostly men who rid themselves of their responsibilities by leaving the family home. From a reply given to the Leader of my party a few weeks ago I see that the Department's success rate is not very high in this regard and I would like to know what the Minister will do about it.
Finally, in the Estimate the Minister set aside £580,000 for consultancy services this year. Expenditure has been almost double that, a figure of £1.07 million, which is a substantial increase on the Estimate. Next year the Minister is doubling it again to £2.3 million for consultancy services. Why is there such a need for consultancy services that costs are almost quadrupled in one year? Is it because the Minister is embarking on major propaganda exercises to convince us that everything is all right in Irish society?
The Minister must think that today is good news day as far as the Government is concerned. We will not be opposing this Estimate. In relation to voluntary bodies and the allocation of grants, I am sure the various organisations involved are extremely grateful for grants received. I disagree with Deputy Allen's point about dependency among voluntary bodies. Voluntary organisations do a tremendous amount of excellent work. Notwithstanding how grateful organisations might be for handouts from time to time, it is much better for voluntary organisations that depend to a great extent on Government funding to receive this funding on a statutory and regular basis, perhaps over a period of three years, so that they are not always proceeding on a fire fighting basis. That is not to take from what organisations may have gained from a windfall effect. There are a number of organisations particularly women's organisations which have received aid from the Minister over the last number of years and while they are very grateful for it there is always the fear that aid will be discontinued. In fairness to those working in voluntary organisations, there should be a more regularised approach to the donation of aid by Government and maybe a decision to match voluntary fund-raiding or whatever. We see this in particular with women's organisations. I remember that in the first budget which the Minister brought in, £250,000 was allocated to women's organisations. It was gratefully received but there was a fear that it would never be given again. I do not have a question to put to the Minister on this, but if savings are to be made and it is possible to have a special allocation available for grants, which is to be welcomed, the wider scope of voluntary organisations should be recognised and we should have a more regularised position in general terms, aside from this one-off allocation.
In relation to Deputy Allen's question about the drop in demand for some of the payments, we could debate this for a long time and economists will give one set of reasons. I know that in management terms, if the situation is managed well money is not wasted. It is important to the staff in my Department that they get our backing and that of the committee and the public in their difficult task. That is not to say that there are not specific problems. However, when economists talk off the top of their heads and look at global figures, they do not understand the work which goes into these things or that if management is allowed to drift, excess costs quickly arise and money goes to people for whom it was never intended. An influential factor here was the visits to employers. The 40,000 employers will, by the end of 1993, have been visited. That has increased compliance, which is a big contributory factor to savings. I have an interesting set of figures in relation to individual employment records. It shows that we are, in effect, attacking the black econony. In 1987-88 we received P35s in respect of 1.17 million people. We are now receiving P35s in respect of 1.34 million people and the figure is consistently increasing.
When the management, organisation and arrangements are improved it is clearer to people that they have to pay, which results in compliance. I know that the Deputies will be interested in these figures because one often hears the employment figures of 1.1 million employed people. This would include part-time workers, share fishermen and so on.
However, I accept the point which the Deputy made about medical referees. I could recite how they are specially qualified and how we check such things but every so often we have cases which we, as public representatives, are not happy with. We have a new decisions advisory office which was set up in the latter part of this year. I hope that it will be more organised next year in order to improve the quality of the decisions made, not only at that level but also with regard to unemployment assistance, which the Deputy also mentioned. This question of people being termed too ill to qualify is a problem which results from not having a disability assistance arrangement. That is another whole development within the social welfare system which I am concerned about. We had two views on the voluntary groups and I am sorry that Deputy Keogh has left——
She apologised.
I understand that. It is not by way of complaint but rather explanation. First, we have all these different schemes, as Deputy Allen who is here longer would know. We have one-off grants but we also have three year community development grants which developed from that. There are three women's groups which are doing substantial work of a continuing nature. An enormous amount of voluntary work is done. In most of those cases, the women's groups only want small amounts of money which enable them to get some piece of equipment or whatever. They might not look for another grant for perhaps two years.
The grants have enabled much work to get underway. Women's groups have, for example, run self-development courses which has meant some continuing demand. However, with a degree of flexibility we have been able to meet most of this demand. It is brought to our attention in the House by Deputies and I am sure that this committee, in particlular, will bring it to our attention in a much more detailed way.
Deputy Allen spoke about the need for a more enlightened approach in relation to poverty generally. The approach in regard to money lending projects is successful. We will have to look at those next year to see how rapidly we can expand that approach. It links in with our household budgeting plan which is becoming much more widely available and for which there is a growing demand. When these things are linked together it results in a better support system which supplementary welfare can be added on to as appropriate.
I agree with the Deputy on the question of the loan sharks. I feel strongly that we should crack down on loan sharks in every possible way, particularly coming up to Christmas. The legislation is almost concluded. It has had a big input from these money lending projects so it is practical in that sense. It will benefit people who are dependent on the Department of Social Welfare.
The Deputy covered much ground in a short time, including anti-family measures. This year we have put an extra £50 million into child benefit, which is a strong family measure. With regard to errant spouses, who are mostly husbands, I knew at the beginning that a substantial proportion of these would be gone out of the country or be reliant themselves on social welfare, which is what has happened. However, I think taxpayers and the Deputies, particularly, would be happy with the fact that those who could pay were made to do so. That is the basis on which I have pursued this. It does mean that the percentage will be relatively small, but it is right that this percentage should pay up.
The Deputy asked about the increase in consultancy this year. The reason is that we are now computerising the short term payments. They were done in the mid-1970's and are now out of pace with the rest of our systems. They are now being brought up to date which is why there is a jump in the coming year to £2.3 million.
I do not understand that.
It is to computerise the short term payments. It is for consultancy with regard to setting up the programmes, for example, which is difficult and substantial work. We have strong computer sections ourselves but implementing these systems entails a large volume of extra work. For example, the integrated short term payment system requires assistance with the development of computer systems to register, process, maintain and pay all short term scheme payments. The scheme includes a capability to identify and process all the short term payments and to computerise the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, so it will also allow us to bring the supplementary allowance scheme payments within our system which is——
To whom is the money being paid?
The work is put out to tender. They are mainly major companies.
Could we have information on that by letter?
I can, of course, send the Deputy the information in a letter.
I am afraid that I will have to ask the Minister to conclude as the bells will ring in two minutes.
I will conclude at that. The Deputy is prolific in his analysis and questioning. I can get him information on the consultancy bodies involved.
Could the Minister get a breakdown on the amounts paid and to whom?
That is for last year. Next year it will have to be put out to tender.
Why was this not estimated for last year? Why did it suddenly go from £500,000 to over £1 million?
This is part of our working relationship with the Department of Finance. If we could have done this at the beginning of the year we would have done so but it is not always possible. During the year various issues are cleared. We have to get agreements of different kinds such as internal industrial relations agreements and cost depends on when some of these become available. The Department of Finance appreciate the value of the service we provide and would approve of our going ahead even though it did not look as if it would go ahead at the beginning of the year. In any event we have money from the savings to do that. We will be moving on this quite quickly because it will enable us to provide a much better service all round. It is cross-referencing which will cut out a great deal of double claiming automatically.
That concludes our consideration of the Social Welfare Supplementary Estimate. I wish to thank the Minister, his officials and members of the select committee for their valuable and constructive contributions to the debate. The select committee has now completed consideration of all Supplementary Estimates referred to it by Dáil Éireann. I thank the members for their active participation in the discussion and for their co-operation which enabled us to complete consideration of our Supplementary Estimates in time. I propose the following draft report:
The Select Committee has considered the following Supplementary Estimates for the service of the year ending 31 December 1993: Vote 26 — Office of the Minister for Education; Vote 27 — First-Level Education; Vote 28 — Second Level and Further Education; Vote 29 — Third Level and Further Education; Vote 40 — Social Welfare and Vote 41 — Health. The Supplementary Estimates are hereby reported to Dáil Éireann.
Report agreed to.
Ordered to report to the Dáil accordingly.
The Select Committee adjourned at 8.30 p.m.