Select Committee on Social Affairs debate

SECTION 1.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Dr. Woods

I welcome the Minister for consideration of this important Bill which has generated a great deal of comment and representation from the various interest groups who want to see equality in employment and have an interest in our Committee Stage proceedings.

The short Title cites the Bill as the Employment Equality Act but several groups have expressed concern about what is included in it. For instance, there is concern that the 1974 and 1977 Acts are not consolidated in this Bill and the omissions are seen as creating difficulties. That issue will arise in the debate on the different sections and representations have been made about them.

On the short Title and the commencement date, why has the Minister omitted some provisions of the previous Acts which were regarded as working well in practice? This issue has been raised with Deputies by a number of groups who are concerned about the future. The Employment Equality Agency, for instance, is concerned about its representation and concerned that its position will be diminished by the provisions in this Bill. It sees its role as being made more peripheral. This brings me to a general question relating to the inclusions in the Bill in the first instance. Why has the Minister not decided to incorporate in the Bill what is there already and to build on the experience of the Employment Equality Agency which was largely limited to cases of gender based discrimination? This would mean a widening of their position.

This issue has been raised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Employment Equality Agency. These are important issues on which we would like to hear the Minister's views before we get into the detail of the Bill.

Kathleen Lynch

I welcome the Minister and his officials. This is important legislation but our party feels that the Bill is before us prematurely. We have areas of concern which should be ironed out at this stage. I am making this statement on behalf of my party. I want to make the position of the Democratic Left on this Bill absolutely clear. In particular I want to put on record that I fully endorse the remarks made by Deputy Eric Byrne on Second Stage on 21 October, 1996 in Dáil Éireann to the effect that, while the Bill is welcome, there are serious concerns on a number of sections. Because these concerns have yet to be dealt with fully I wish to give notice that on Report Stage I intend to table a number of amendments. I know this is unusual but we feel that we do not have an option unless the issues are dealt with in the interim.

I hope that by the time Report Stage comes it will not be necessary to propose these amendments and that the Minister will have taken our concerns fully on board, but it is necessary to give notice to show the depth of our concern about certain aspects of the Bill. Within my own party and based on correspondence received from other individuals and organisations there are particular reservations about sections 16 and 37 of the Bill as drafted and we are not satisfied that the Minister's proposed amendments fully address these concerns. Should these concerns not be fully addressed in the interim I will be tabling amendments to the Bill on Report Stage along the following lines: a new section 16 (1) (c) combined with complete deletion of section 37 (1) and the amending of section 16 (4) to refer only to unlawful sexual behaviour. In addition, I am considering amendments to section 36 (1) in so far as it discriminates against local authority workers and teachers on the grounds of residence and citizenship in particular.

It is unacceptable to give legal sanction to certain institutions to discriminate without adequate checks and balances. As legislators we represent the electorate and taxpayers who support publicly funded institutions. We would be failing in our responsibility if we gave such institutions the right to discriminate allowing large areas of employment to have a type of offshore status without the proper safeguards. The Bill has the potential to provide us for the first time with an historic anti-discrimination charter. The legislation is complicated and deserves our detailed and complete attention. The Bill as currently drafted, together with the amendments tabled, does not in our opinion fulfil that potential and we cannot leave an "equality free zone" in certain areas of our legislation.

Ms Keogh

I welcome the Minister and his officials. We have already spoken on Second Stage about how cumbersome and lengthy this Bill is. It is very complex legislation and there is a difficulty in that because it makes it less accessible to the various groups who have an interest in it. I understand why it is so complex but it presents a huge difficulty for those who will be most affected by it.

The Bill changes the essence of the Employment Equality Act, 1977, because it repeals in whole or in part 35 of its 56 provisions. The functions of the 1977 Act are changed, the terms of reference are changed and the scope of the Act has changed. The system of enforcement, damages and remedies is changed. That is a perceived difficulty. There is a perceived difficulty in relation to enforcing this Bill where the hangover of the provisions of the 1977 Act is outside it, because it means that the two Acts have to be read in tandem. I raised this issue with the Minister on Second Stage because it presents a difficulty and I also hinted at it yesterday when we completed the Divorce Bill. Does the Minister intend to have a consolidating process in the near future?

Mr. Flood

I welcome my constituency colleague, the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, to our meeting. I congratulate him on the completion of yesterday's business with regard to the divorce referendum. That process began quite some time ago.

I was confused by the comments of the representative of the Democratic Left. If these matters are not sorted out, are we in a serious crisis? Is it not unusual for a Government party to put amendments down? That is not something which happened frequently when Fianna Fáil and Labour were in Government. However, it is obviously a matter for Democratic Left. I am surprised they are calling into question legislation which presumably received Cabinet approval. I am not experienced and have not served in Cabinet but it is a little unusual to propose amendments at this stage. I thought these things were sorted out at Cabinet level but perhaps we are entering a new age.

Mr. Kemmy

I welcome the Minister and the Bill. This is major legislation, and quite complex, as Deputy Keogh said. The first paragraph of the memorandum gives the whole objective of the Bill. The Minister has shown himself to be very even handed and sure footed over the last four years in guiding complex legislation through the Oireachtas. On the question of the amendments proposed by Democratic Left, the Minister will have to deal with that as best he can and reach a compromise on the matter. That is what the Government is there for. Differences between the parties must be resolved. It is unusual, as Deputy Flood said, for Government parties to put down amendments. We do not put down amendments to legislation proposed by the Democratic Left Minister, but that might change too. We would try to compose any differences behind the scenes. It is quite right to do that; Government is about give and take.

Some Deputies have referred to the fact that we have received many representations on this question from various groups. Some are a little misguided and have read into the Bill things that are not in it. I am sure the Minister can deal with that. There is no reason, if there is goodwill amongst all parties, why we cannot reach consensus. The Minister set out clearly what he intends to do. We all support the objectives set out in the first paragraph and if we are united on that there is no need for any division. If we are getting the best possible legislation which is practical and achieves its objectives, I would not worry too much about amendments.

Miss Flaherty

On behalf of Fine Gael I welcome the Minister and the Bill. While substantial issues have been raised about the detail of the Bill, I think everybody supports its main thrust and spirit. It was clear from early on that there were complex issues to be resolved and complex rights to be balanced in this Bill.

I am taken aback by the approach of Democratic Left. I am the Government convenor and I was not given a great deal of notice of this. I question whether Committee Stage could not have been allowed to run its course because these matters are generally handled behind closed doors. However, I am sure Democratic Left can answer as to why it has chosen this way of dealing with the matter. Based on the Minister's track record, there will be possibilities of movement on Committee Stage and as the Bill progresses through the other House. Markers of this kind are rather unusual and not helpful. However, people have a right to take positions based on how strongly they feel about issues. I look forward to a constructive debate here and to developing and improving the Bill.

Chairman

We are on section 1. I ask the Minister to speak and then the floor will again be open to Members.

Minister for Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Taylor)

Thank you, Sir, and the Members for their cordial welcome.

The comments of Deputy Lynch on behalf of Democratic Left are surprising. Every word of this Bill was approved unanimously by the Government which includes Democratic Left. Furthermore, in the usual way and in accordance with Government practice, the heads of this Bill were circulated. All members of Government saw them and made their comments which were dealt with. In accordance with sound, democratic Government practice, which has been established in this country for decades, the Government approved this Bill unanimously. Deputy Lynch's statement to the committee is at variance with what her colleagues in Government agreed to. It is puzzling in the extreme.

However, I have tabled amendments which perhaps move the Bill in a certain direction and it is open to any Member to vote on them accordingly. The amendments are properly before the Committee.

This is a very radical, progressive measure. It formed part of the programme for Government between the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party in the previous Government and the Labour Party carried it forward into the programme for this Government.

The Bill does not in any way remove, amend, reduce or detract from any right held by any person under existing law in regard to discrimination or dismissal. Any existing rights are fully maintained. However, it gives a vast range of new rights to people who are discriminated against in many circumstances. People who have no rights at present will be given very substantial rights by this Bill. The only anti-discrimination law we have at the moment is gender based. This new measure, proposed originally by the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government and now by the Government, gives rights to bring claims and not to be discriminated against on a considerable number of additional new grounds such as disability, sexual orientation, religious belief, age, race, colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin and membership of the travelling community. Those are important new additional rights.

This is a very progressive measure which the Government is unanimously determined to bring forward. We may be able on Committee Stage to extend and improve those rights beyond what the Government agreed, but that is a matter for the committee to determine on an item by item basis. I assure you, Sir, and the committee that this Bill was agreed unanimously in Cabinet by Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left.

Consolidation is always desirable but it is not always quickly or easily accomplished. Further variation will take place in the Equal Status Bill, which I hope to publish before the end of this year, where the combination of the previous legislation will be brought more sharply into focus. That comment also applies to the Employment Equality Agency. The agency's position will not be diminished or made peripheral when this programme of legislation, comprising this Bill and the equal status Bill, has been completed. It will be very much expanded and extended. It will represent others of those groups for whom we are providing in this legislation and who have no protection at present. However, for appropriate and good reasons, that aspect of the matter is being dealt with in the equal status Bill which is at an advanced stage of preparation.

Dr. Woods

The Minister has explained the situation. However, when a Deputy reads a prepared speech setting out the policy of Democratic Left, two of whose members sit at Cabinet and who supposedly accept collective responsibility, as is their constitutional requirement, she undermined the Bill. That is the reason I wanted the matter clarified. Democratic Left cannot have it both ways. Its members cannot be in Government and be out of it at the same time, especially when a Bill is introduced in the House. The Minister has clarified that Democratic Left Ministers collectively participated in approving this legislation. It is, therefore, for Deputy Lynch to explain her position.

I appreciate the Minister's view that consolidation takes time. However, there has been confusion on this issue. This is why I asked the Minister to clarify that even without consolidation all the rights, powers and entitlements will be maintained and will not be lost in the course of our deliberations.

Ms Keogh

I was taken aback by the comments of Deputy Lynch, as was the Minister, especially when she said she was stating Democratic Left policy in this area. The Minister confirmed the Bill was approved by all parties in Government, and that any difficulties should have been resolved when the heads of the Bill were circulated. It is extraordinary that Democratic Left should object at this stage. I do not like the suggestion that unless something is done on Committee Stage action will be taken on Report Stage. It may have been better to propose specific amendments on Committee Stage so that they could be debated.

I accept the Minister's point that there will be a degree of consolidation with the equal status Bill. I share the concerns about the Employment Equality Agency. The Minister has pointed out that the position of the agency will not be diminished by the passing of this Bill. Great concern has been expressed about the future role of the agency as it will be then constituted. We will have an opportunity to debate this on a later section. I am amazed that Democratic Left has withdrawn its approval of the Bill. It is now no longer unanimously approved by the Government.

Question put and agreed to.

Select Committee on Social Affairs debate - Thursday, 21 Nov 1996

SECTION 1.

Select Committee on Social Affairs debate -
Thursday, 21 Nov 1996