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Select Committee on Social Affairs debate -
Thursday, 6 Mar 1997

SECTION 68.

I move amendment No: 58:

In page 42, subsection (2), lines 38 to 47, to delete paragraph (a), and substitute the following:

"3.—(a) Subject to the provisions of this section, where, after the commencement of this section, an archaeological object becomes the property of the State, the Director may, at his or her discretion, if he or she is of opinion that the object is not of sufficient archaeological or historical interest to justify its retention by the State, dispose of the object by whatever means he or she thinks fit.

(b) Where an archaeological object becomes the property of the State and the Director is of the opinion that the object is predominantly more of local rather than national interest, the Director may place the object in the care of a designated museum.

(c) An archaeological object that has been placed in the care of a designated museum under paragraph (b) shall not be disposed of other than by means of its transfer into the care of another designated museum or the National Museum of Ireland.

(d) Any dispute between a designated museum and that Director as to where an archaeological object should be kept shall be referred to the Minister and he or she shall, after consultation with the designated museums, decide which museum should keep the object and the decision of the Minister shall be final and shall be carried into effect.

(e) The Minister may make regulations in relation to the care and management of archaeological objects kept in designated museums pursuant to this section.

(f) The Director may, with the consent of the Minister, designate museums (referred to in this section as ‘designated museums') in the ownership and control of local authorities for the purposes of this section.

(g) The Director shall, if so required by the Minister, revoke a designation under paragraph (f).

(h) Where a designation is revoked under paragraph (g), any archaeological object in the care of the museum concerned on the date of such revocation shall be transferred, as soon as may be, to the National Museum of Ireland or such designated museum as the Minister may direct.".

This amendment deals with the relationship between local authority museums, the National Museum and the Minister where archaeological objects are concerned. The amendment involves the charge and custody of archaeological objects in the ownership of the State found since the passing of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994. It sets out the respective relationships which are to apply between a museum operated by a local authority, the National Museum and the Minister, as owner of the objects in question.

In general, the scheme devised provides a means whereby, without compromising the principle that the State owns the objects for the people, the archaeological object involved may be held under the permanent control of either a local authority museum or in the National Museum, depending on whether it is predominantly of local or national interest. Under the scheme it is proposed that the director of the National Museum will decide on a designation for a local authority museum with the consent of the Minister. Once an object is found and reported to the director, he or she will decide, in consultation with the nearest designated local authority museum involved, which museum should hold the object on a permanent basis. In the event of a dispute between the two parties to which I referred, the matter will be referred to the Minister for his or her decision which would be final. It is also proposed to provide an enablement for the Minister to make regulations governing the monitoring of objects in the care of a local authority museum.

The amendment arises from local museum interests which have expressed concern that the effects of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act. 1994, are that archaeological objects of predominantly local significance are claimable by the National Museum and that only the director of that museum can decide where they are to be kept. While there is already a power of designation under the 1994 Act providing that the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht can designate where such objects may be held for safe keeping, this is a provision to be utilised in emergencies only. Confining the proposed system of designation to local authority museums in which such objects may be held on a permanent basis is not seen as precluding the long-term, but not permanent, loan of objects to other types of museums from the collection of the National Museum. Such loans will be governed by section 17 of the Bill on the basis of guidelines approved by the board of the National Museum, following consultation with the Heritage Council.

This amendment should be read in conjunction with amendments Nos. 30 and 31 which we have already discussed. These amendments are designed to create a more integrated structure of regulation of the charge in custody of archaeological objects owned by the State, which have been found in the State since the enactment of the National Monuments Act, 1930.

I agree with the Minister's views about the need to recognise local museums. However, I am worried about the word "disposal" in relation to archaeological objects. Does the Minister mean transfer of objects from a national to a local institution?

We want to give an institution the right——

Of transfer.

It is one thing to transfer but if an object is not of significant value or interest, the amendment states that "the Director may, at his or her discretion, if he or she is of the opinion that the object is not of sufficient archaeological or historical interest to justify its retention by the State, dispose of the object by whatever means he or she thinks fit". I accept the Deputy's concerns but we are making a distinction between a national museum and a national attic. If everything is allowed in and nothing is thrown out, one loses the quality of discrimination between what is a constituent part of a collection and what should be disposed of. I do not want the word "disposal" to be misconstrued. I assure the Deputy that the word "disposal" is only used for objects which have been examined and found to be rubbish.

I am worried about the criteria used by experts. We must be careful about disposing of objects for commercial reasons.

I am addressing a flaw in the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994, which allowed the director to get rid of an object without using any criteria. I am including the restriction that "the Director may, at his or her discretion, if he or she is of opinion that the object is not of sufficient archaeological or historical interest to justify its retention by the State, dispose of the object by whatever means he or she thinks fit". It is limited to objects which are "not of sufficient archaeological or historical interest". I will look at it again between now and Report Stage but I am happy I have addressed the Deputy's concerns.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 68, as amended, agreed to.
Section 69 agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.

I move amendment No. 59:

In page 43, line 38, column (2), after "1877" to insert "and the premises known as the Natural History Museum building, Merrion Street, Dublin, erected pursuant to the provisions of the National Gallery Act, 1854.".

This amendment corrects an omission in the compilation of the list of core repositories sited in the Schedule to the Bill. The inclusion of the Natural History Museum building arises out of the National Gallery Act, 1854, which included provision for the erection of a public museum in Dublin. The building erected pursuant to this provision was opened in 1856 and now forms one of the core buildings in the National Museum. It was handed over to the State by the Royal Dublin Society under the provisions of the Dublin Science and Art Museum Act, 1877.

Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
THIRD SCHEDULE.

I move amendment No. 60:

In page 45, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:

"(14) costumes,".

I knew there would be a widespread welcome for this amendment. It is to include "costumes" among the list of decorative art objects for export licence purposes in the Third Schedule. In discussion with interested groups, it was indicated to me that this category needed to be included. I commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment agreed to.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Report of Select Committee.

I propose the following draft report:

"The Select Committee on Social Affairs has considered the National Cultural Institutions Bill, 1996, and has made amendments thereto. The Bill, as amended, is reported to the Dáil."

Is that agreed?

Report agreed to.

Ordered to report to the Dáil accordingly.

I thank the Deputies who took part in the discussion, particularly Deputies de Valera and Quill for their thoughtful amendments. The Bill has been improved as a result of the constructive debate.

I thank the Minister, his officials and the Deputies for their co-operation. The committee will meet next Tuesday at 5 p.m. to consider the Social Welfare Bill, 1997.

The Select Committee adjourned at 3 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 March 1997.

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