Yes. The proposal is that we adjourn now and invite representatives of the EPA, the City and County Managers' Association and possibly the EU's environment directorate to attend the committee. They could inform us of what standards will apply if and when the legislation is enacted.
Business of Select Sub-Committee
We will invite the EU Environment Commissioner, Janez Potocnik, himself.
The director general of the EU's environment directorate.
It is an awful pity the Fianna Fáil Members did not bring this in when they were in government. They sat on this for long enough.
We did not bring in anything like this Bill.
Can we have a bit of order? The clerk to the committee will read the motion.
Clerk to the Committee
The proposal is that the select sub-committee adjourn and invite representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, the County and City Managers Association and the director general of the EU environment directorate to appear before it to discuss the standards that will apply with regard to the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011.
I wish to add representatives from An Taisce to this because they will be involved and have their noses stuck in it anyway. I would have them in because no matter they will be out around snooping on people like peeping Toms as they normally do.
Is there anybody else we should bring in?
We might as well invite the rural organisations too.
That is fine. Let them off. The more ridiculous this becomes, the better and easier for us. Is Deputy Ó Cuív referring to the Irish Rural Dwellers Association?
Yes, such an organisation or Irish Rural Link.
Has the Chair any suggestion?
I have not.
Since Deputy Brian Walsh said it would have been a great idea if Deputy Ó Cuív had done this when he was in government, has he any suggestion?
I have not.
I will ask the clerk to read the motion again because it is very comprehensive.
Clerk to the Committee
The motion reads: "The select sub-committee should adjourn and invite to committee representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, the County and City Managers Association, the director general of the EU environment directorate, An Taisce and a representative of the Irish Rural Dwellers Association to discuss the standards that will apply with regard to the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011."
Before I put the motion, the Minister wants to give a response.
This is unprecedented. It never happened before in Deputy Ó Cuív's time. The regulations are set out in the Bill.
Yet the Minister cannot tell us what the standards are.
When I was Minister, before I ever got in with a Bill, representative organisations were invited to discuss the provisions to ensure they were better informed. Regrettably, this did not happen in this case. However, is fearr go deireanach ná go brách.
The Minister has put the cart before the horse.
I represent a rural constituency and want to ensure that we do not enshrine in law a distinction as to how we treat urban and rural dwellers. I was hoping to get the opportunity to speak on Second Stage but was not afforded it as a member of this committee. When I met a good number of the organisations in question, I informed them I would voice their concerns when speaking on Second Stage.
If an inspector is of the opinion that a domestic water treatment system is likely to constitute a risk to a deep well pump, then remedial works must be carried out. That could force someone with a septic tank in close proximity to a deep well pump to move the tank. There are genuine concerns in rural communities.
Deputy Bannon, we are dealing with a proposal before the committee.
The Minister has refused three times to answer my questions about fines.
A proposal has been formally moved-----
The Minister keeps refusing to answer the questions. I have asked him three times, coolly, calmly and collectively. The Minister is a cool, calm, big man. I just want a reasonable answer about fines.
He is like St. Peter.
No, that is Deputy Peter Mathews.
May I speak without interruption? The motion is before the committee and takes priority over any other matter that is under discussion. Pending the outcome of the motion, we can then return to the matters we were discussing before.
The motion is: "The select sub-committee should adjourn and invite to the committee representatives of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, the County and City Managers Association, the director general of the environment directorate in the EU, An Taisce and an organisation representative of Irish rural dwellers such as the Irish Rural Dwellers Association to discuss the standards that will apply in regard to the Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011."
Question put:
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 7.
Tá
- Collins, Niall.
- McGrath, Mattie.
- Stanley, Brian.
Níl
- Bannon, James.
- Coonan, Noel.
- Hogan, Phil.
- Humphreys, Kevin.
- Lynch, Ciarán.
- McLoughlin, Tony.
- O’Donovan, Patrick.
Question declared lost.
In case Deputy McGrath says I did not answer a question, I had better answer his one.
As I need to step out of the meeting for half an hour, I ask Deputy Coonan to take the Chair.
Deputy Noel Coonan took the Chair.
On a point of order, I am not here very long but I wonder whether the Vice Chairman can establish this for me. Is it appropriate that the Chair tells one of the members of the committee what way he should vote, that is, tells the Member "Níl"? I do not know, maybe that is all right. Can someone establish that? Can members not make up their own minds or does the Chair tell members what way to vote?
I did not hear that. Deputy Bannon sought clarification-----
On which way to vote.
No - on what he was voting for. He asked that it be read out again and it was. Immediately after it was read out, he stated "Níl".
Before that happened, the Chairman suggested that he vote, "Níl". I am sure Deputy Bannon is well capable of thinking for himself.
I did not hear the Chairman saying that.
I heard it.
It is probably more appropriate to wait until the Chairman comes back and to ask him.
I had intended to do that but he left.
To clarify-----
The Chairman will be back. He put it to the meeting that he would be absent until 4.15 p.m. His reason for that is he is on Topical Issues in the Dáil.
In general, is it appropriate for the Chair to tell members what way to vote? I have not heard the Ceann Comhairle in the Dáil tell Members what way to vote. I wonder is it different at committee. This is a general question on chairpersons.
I presume it is not appropriate but I did not hear the Chair say that.
Okay, that is good.
When I heard the Chairman saying "Níl", I asked that the motion be read until I would make up my own mind. I will not be directed by the Chair as to how I will vote.
I heard him say "Níl" and I am sitting here. It could be the accoustics in the room or something, but I heard him anyway.
Deputy Mattie McGrath could have better hearing than some.
I must have. I heard it anyway.