Select Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Tuesday, 5 Nov 2024

Vote 31 - Transport (Supplementary)

An Cathaoirleach

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 31 - Transport. I remind members the committee has no role in approving the Estimates. This is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure, make the process more transparent and engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. I thank the Department for the briefing note provided. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, and his officials and thank them for their attendance.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity.

Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory regarding an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. For anyone watching this meeting, Oireachtas Members and witnesses now have the option of being physically present in the committee room or of joining the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams. I do not believe there are any members attending online at the moment, but I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate at this public meeting. I will not permit a member to participate if he or she is not adhering to this requirement. Any member who is participating online must indicate that he or she is within the confines of the Leinster House campus prior to making his or her contribution.

I welcome the Minister of State and invite him to make his opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy James Lawless)

This is my second time appearing before the committee. I took a Bill through Committee Stage recently. I would have liked a greater opportunity to engage with this committee, as it is a good one that does important work, but I have engaged with each of the members individually on transport issues in the short time I have had this brief and I thank them for their diligence and interest in this important portfolio.

I will take the committee through the Supplementary Estimate. I am joined by Mr. Garret Doocey and Ms Joan Curry from my Department. We will address the various figures as we progress.

The Supplementary Estimates are in two parts, a substantive Estimate voting additional funds to the Department as well as a technical Estimate reallocating capital funds within the Vote across different subheads. In total, €147.991 million in additional current expenditure funds will be allocated to the Vote, €68.5 million in capital funds will be reallocated to other subheads and €29 million in capital will be reallocated to current expenditure.

Taking the substantive Supplementary Estimate for current expenditure first, €90 million will be allocated to public transport services. I am pleased to see passenger numbers performing so well and I expect continued growth in them through the remainder of 2024 as we continue to deliver on our commitment to improve and expand public transport services. The funding will assist in meeting cost-of-living challenges and provide for the continuation of the 20% average fare reduction on public transport services, which was introduced in 2022 as part of a suite of cost-of-living measures, and the continuation of the young adult card initiative on PSO and participating commercial bus services. These initiatives have proven popular. I know from my constituency and elsewhere in the country that they have been met with approval and people have been voting with their feet by using the services more and more, which we would all agree is positive.

The second item in the Supplementary Estimate concerns the transition to the new Coast Guard contract. As part of the transition, agreed contractual milestone payments to the value of €19.667 million are due. These are for on-duty Coast Guard fixed-wing aircraft delivered certified and available for flight in the contracted configurations and the technical acceptance completed for on-duty Coast Guard helicopter No. 1.

The third item in the Supplementary Estimate concerns €3.394 million for a number of existing Coast Guard costs, including the full-year costs for aviation services in 2024 and support for digital incident management systems, as well as volunteer training, volunteer payments and equipment maintenance.

The next item on the agenda consists of €1.656 million for Irish Lights, covering additional weather-related costs for repairs to coastal infrastructure and additional costs pertaining to environmental compliance.

For the Road Safety Authority, €7.614 million is being sought due to increased running costs and declining income from services owing to indexation provisions in contracts with third-party suppliers of key services. This funding is required to ensure the continuity of RSA operations in the final months of the year, pending the introduction of a range of fee increases and revisions in January 2025 to cover the coming year.

Some €2.7 million is required for driver vehicle and licensing services within the digital hub to cover increased licensing and postage costs, which have incrementally impacted the cost of delivery in recent years. It is intended to introduce legislation to digitise much of the driver vehicle and licensing services, which I hope will see a reduction in postage and other paper-based costs.

Some €3 million is required to address general pressures within the Department’s administration budget, particularly operational costs arising from the increase in the Department’s staff complement over the past two to three years, as well the cost of delivering the Department’s IT services, which are also a part of the digital hub.

A substantive capital supplementary is being sought concerning two specific projects. The first is a capital allocation from the REPowerEU fund of €18.46 million for the installation of charging equipment at Drogheda railway station for the battery-electric rail fleet, which will start to arrive from 2025. The second capital allocation is €1.5 million from the shared island fund for the Carlingford to Newry greenway.

Next is the technical supplementary. To reallocate funds within subheads, €296 million is allocated to subhead 8.3 - cycling and walking active travel measures for 2024. In addition to this funding it is proposed to allocate €7.5 million from an underspend on greenways and €27 million from an underspend in public transport investment. These additional funds will go towards existing costs for projects as the investment programme has once again performed very strongly in 2024.

On subhead C.7, €16 million is being allocated for electric vehicle grants and infrastructure. Under subhead C.4, which is regional and local roads protection and renewal, a further €18 million is allocated from an underspend in the coastguard across to regional and local roads protection and renewal.

The adverse weather had detrimentally impacted the structural integrity of the roads network, causing significant damage, with pothole development and ultimately pavement failure requiring significant additional investment across the network. Given the amount of damage to the network due to these events, additional funding of €30 million to local authorities through the restoration and improvement grants would allow the restoration of affected roads while bringing resilience in the network for future weather events. Further, €4 million is to prepare for the implementation of lower default speed limits on local roads.

Finally, it is proposed to reallocate €29 million from the A5 Border to Derry road across to the current public transport services to ensure sufficient funds exist to support public transport services to finish out to year end.

I have given an overview of the Estimates and the main points. I am happy to take any questions members may have as we consider the Estimates.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State for his overview. Deputy O'Rourke is first to contribute.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the Minister of State for being here today. I have a question on the public transport subhead, the reallocation of funding and the additional capital. I think that the Minister of State said there was a shift of €29 million from capital to current expenditure.

It certainly is the case that there are increased numbers on public transport. I think it is a shared policy objective to encourage more people to use public transport. The Minister of State is from a commuter belt county, as am I, so he will be familiar with the challenges faced by high-frequency services into and out of this city. I can speak particularly of routes such as the 103 and the 105, which serve Ratoath and Ashbourne, and the 109 and NX, which serve Navan and Kells. We have heard about a number of factors. Our local councillors in County Meath spoke to representatives of the NTA and Bus Éireann yesterday. We have had representatives of those bodies before this committee many times through the years and we constantly get a picture of constraints or difficulties in terms of the recruitment and retention of drivers and mechanics and how that impacts on the fleet and, of course, congestion caused by the very considerable works and delays. There is huge frustration as a result of works in Ashbourne, for example, which have long over run. There is also congestion in the city, such as in Phibsborough and at The Halfway House on the N3. Will the proposals the Minister of State has announced address some of those issues? What engagement has he had with Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and others to address those concerns?

A general election is imminent and these are hugely important issues for people. I can give an example of a resident in Ashbourne who literally lives 150 m from the nearest bus stop. On paper, it should be an excellent service based on the timetable, but the resident has a secondhand or "new to them" car with N plates is parked in their drive. Why? It is because the family cannot rely on the service. The parents gave an example. They said they were away on holidays for two weeks. Their young fella works in the city and, of the ten days he had to go to work, he was late on eight days because he could not rely on the bus service. Even though the bus stop is 150 m from their house, it is no use to them because every time a bus reaches the bus stop, it is full and passes intending passengers.

Therefore, when he is getting the bus, he travels 2 km up the road to access the bus there. I am sure this is not news to the Minister of State and he is familiar with this picture. It is a problem for everybody concerned and it needs to be addressed. In these measures, does the Minister of State see improvement for the likes of that young man and commuters right across commuter belt?

Deputy James Lawless

That is an important question. As the Deputy said, I am very familiar with it, representing Kildare North in my role as a TD. I also know the Deputy’s area. Councillor Caroline O’Reilly has been very vocal on those issues as well - bus services to Ratoath and Ashbourne, the ones the Deputy mentioned - and I met with her on that recently.

The Deputy is right that there are a number of causes for that, such as the increased popularity of the service, which is a good thing that we want to encourage. However, we need make sure they are reliable, available, frequent and affordable. I think the affordable part has been tackled through the PSO interventions, the 20% cuts, the young adult card and so on. The reliability is one we need to get 100% right. If people are getting a bus and the bus is turning up late or not turning up at all, which was the case on some occasions, that is not good enough.

However, in my experience, speaking as a commuter myself, I think there have been significant improvements in the past six to 12 months. Coming out of Covid, there were continual issues. The 120, 124 and 126 buses in my area, in the Deputy’s area and across the commuter belt had begun to lag. The reason for that, as the Deputy mentioned, is there was a shortage of drivers. It was difficult to get people back into the same working day. That was a challenge across many industries post Covid - hospitality, catering and so on. Some people changed roles and lifestyles in the meantime. Mechanics is a particular issue. We really need to support further apprenticeships for the development of careers in the area of mechanics. Not just ordinary mechanics, which are very important for private motor cars, but heavy duty, heavy vehicle mechanics. I have met with Dublin Bus on that. I had a good discussion with Billy Hann on that and I was committed to bringing that through as well. He is creating multiple in terms of mechanics and actively seeking more. I met with Go-Ahead on that, the provider of many services in the Deputy's constituency and in my own, and others around the commuter belt. I have spoken with Stephen Kent of Bus Éireann as well on similar issues. I have been engaging with the transport companies on that. We are seeing improvement in terms of drivers. We need more mechanics still. The call goes out today and every day. If people are interested, I encourage school leavers and people to look at that as an alternative career path and explore it with the companies. They are open and willing to recruit people and take them on. We need to have constant reliability that has, unfortunately, been an issue in the recent past.

The Supplementary Estimate of €29 million goes towards the end of year. The Supplementary Estimate is for now to year end, which is only two months. However, it is important. It is important to maintain a minimum existing level of service but also provide additional supports where needed in areas of the type the Deputy mentioned.

Regarding the mechanic and driver shortages, we got agreement recently to place those trades on the critical skills list, which will help with the recruitment and retention of mechanics. That is now recognised as a critical skill.

Part of the funding is about capacity in the network, such as issues like a bus being full when it pulls up at the stop, which I see in my constituency and I am sure the Deputy sees in his. More double-deckers and more frequency of services would help that. The 139 in my area of Kildare recently got an additional bus added on the fleet on a daily basis. All of those things are key to make sure that when people make the choice, which I recommended every day, to use the bus or train rather than getting in their private car where at all possible, we need to provide the supply and service to meet that expectation. I think we are doing that. We are making huge strides, particularly in this last term of Government. I will not say this €29 million is a panacea. It is not. It is a Supplementary Estimate to year end. It will go towards supporting those provisions and measures into the future. I hope that the next Government, whatever its make-up, will be as ambitious and committed to public transport as the last Government has been.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I can look at the cancellations: the 7.30 a.m. 103 service from Dublin to Ratoath; the 8.40 a.m. from Ratoath to Dublin; the 8.25 a.m. 109 from Dunshaughlin to Dublin; and the 7.42 a.m. NX from Dublin to Navan. Those were all cancellations this morning, which is, unfortunately, par for the course. Every one of those buses is full. There are 80 or 60 people. When those buses are cancelled, it means the next one is not fit to take the number of people there and we end up with people standing at bus stops and frustrated with their experience of the public transport system.

This is one of the big issues and frustrations I hear about from people. The tool that is available to us is parliamentary questions. Bus Éireann will say that it has a performance efficiency rate of 96%. That really offends people because it does not reflect their experience. Some of those who use bus services irregularly will see lots of vehicles on routes. This issue relates to people who organise their lives, their working day and their working week around public transport services. Those services are not nearly as reliable as they need to be. The Minister of State provided an example. Because double-decker buses were not running on the relevant routes for a number of months, those routes were awarded to private providers that use coaches. As a result, there was a reduction in capacity in real terms. In what ways are the Minister of State and the NTA holding bus providers to account? Have fines been issued? Are there commitments in respect of approvals?

There are a number of good private providers, such as Ashbourne Connect, for example, that have been affected by the fare reductions on PSO services. These providers are running viable services, filling a gap and meeting demand. They tell me that because people are voting with their feet as a result of the fare reductions, there have reduced numbers on their services. In the meantime, people are shifting over to services that cannot meet the level of demand. I have asked this question at a number of fora. Is consideration going to be given to fairness across the public and private services in terms of fare reductions, specifically the 20% fare reduction?

Deputy James Lawless

I am very familiar with the issues the Deputy has raised, both as a Minister of State and as a TD. I see them in my constituency as well as seeing them across the country. We will be introducing revised contracts from 1 December. We are a month away from that. Key performance metrics will be included as part of the criteria for those contracts to outsourced services and will be a tangible, measurable part of their contract fulfilment to ensure performance is at the heart of it. That is being built into the contract from 1 December onward.

The Deputy asked whether fines have been issued. Multiple fines have been issued. Fines continue to be issued where providers are not making their agreed service levels. I met with the providers yesterday. Earlier, I mentioned that I met Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead and many others. I meet the NTA regularly. I will be meeting its representatives again this afternoon as part of our regular engagement.

I am aware of the issues in the Deputy's area. Councillor Caroline O'Reilly has been very vocal and brought them to my attention a number of times. I have looked into the service the Deputy mentioned as a result. I am also familiar with services across the country as representatives such as the Deputy, Councillor O'Reilly and others are rightly telling me what the issues are in their areas. In the three and a half months I have had this job, I have been trying to tackle those issues and raise them with the NTA and the providers. We have made progress. We are seeing the new contracts coming in on 1 December, which will bake in performance delivery as a key metric for the first time. The €29 million that is there today will include further supports for things like capacity on those routes, for reliability. It is really important that we provide a high-quality public service, and that is what we are trying to do.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you very much.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Am I okay for another question?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, go ahead. Just a brief one.

Deputy James Lawless

There is one other point that is related. I have asked my Department and the NTA, and will be asking the NTA again today, to ensure that the TFI real-time app is improved. It is a source of frustration for people when they are waiting for a bus. I have done it myself. You go onto the app to see if the bus is due and it says it is, but actually it is a ghost bus that does not turn up. I think it has got a lot better, from my own direct experience of using the bus and train. It has improved hugely but there are still issues where it is not always as accurate as it should be. I have asked the NTA about really improving it and getting it to a level where people can rely on it 100%, so that real-time arrival times are actually met and the bus is in front of you when the app tell you that it is.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I might get the Minister of State to run through a couple of points briefly. He might come back to me on the 20% fare reduction in respect of private operators.

There is a shared objective for public transport. There are ambitious plans in respect of Connecting Ireland and the rural bus transport network. I encourage the speedy roll-out of that. There are challenges relating to drivers, mechanics and services, but I encourage this Government and future governments to continue in that regard.

I thank the Minister of State for his involvement on the issue of the passenger cap at Dublin Airport, which we have news about. What is his perspective on developments there and on the issue of flight paths? He met with a number of representative groups. There is a commitment from the DAA to review flight paths. Is that something he will hold the DAA to account for? It is certainly something that local residents and public representatives are eager to do. What is his sense of the decision made yesterday on the passenger cap and the ongoing challenge to square those circles of demand for aviation with spatial planning and the needs of local communities? Will he provide us with an update on his experience to date and his expectation of the months ahead?

Deputy James Lawless

It is not an item relating to the Estimates but I am happy to give a short comment on it. I do not think there is any aviation estimate in the current pack but given it is a very topical issue, I am happy to briefly engage with the Deputy on it.

On yesterday's decision, and I have said this many times but it is useful to say it on the public record, the passenger cap at Dublin Airport is not a function of or a matter for decision by the Government. It is not a decision of any Minister, Cabinet or Government. It is a planning condition imposed by An Bord Pleanála in 2007. An Bord Pleanála, as with all planning authorities, is independent of government and the political system. It is important that all stakeholders and observers are aware of that because those issues are sometimes confused. I welcome the clarity yesterday's decision brings. I publicly welcomed it in a statement yesterday. Planning processes lag behind the growth we have seen at Dublin Airport and the economic growth of the country. The decision perhaps affords a little time to the planning authority to complete its work. I encourage the DAA, as the airport management team and agency with responsibility to manage the airport, including compliance with planning conditions, to continue to engage with An Bord Pleanála and Fingal planning authorities. It has done that but I would like to see that engagement continued and expedited. I expect that will happen. I have spoken to all parties involved and encouraged them to see that this is not an issue where delays should feature.

When I came to the Department, I was quite surprised to see that this cap has been in place since 2007. I was surprised at the apparent lethargy of certain players on the pitch in moving it forward. It has gathered momentum of late. It would have been preferable if this had happened four, five, six or eight years ago, but it is happening now. The decision to place a stay on that gives some breathing space but it should be used wisely and productively in the interim. All those actors need to seriously engage now and move forward so that this situation does not reach a crisis point again in the near future.

On flight paths and residents, I held a number of meetings with residents, including residents in the Deputy's area. I thank him for making some introductions on that. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, gave me a list of groups in the Deputy's area. I also met with residents in the north Dublin area and wider area around the airport. I am sure the Chairman has met residents in that area as well. I met with some of the Chair's people, if I could put it that way, as well. It was very important that I did that and that those voices are heard in the debate. They are also very important stakeholders. I will not comment in too much detail about the discussions or outcomes because some of that is subject to planning, legal constraints and current processes. I will say that I took careful note of those discussions. I have had subsequent conversations with the DAA, among others. I am confident that there is - I will not say flight path - a path forward, which it is to be hoped will be to the satisfaction of all. We are a little bit away from that yet, but I certainly noted the views of residents and expressed those in summary form to the relevant stakeholders with a view that they should be taken up and taken seriously. I expect that will happen. There is probably not a whole lot more I can say about that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am absolutely happy to have this discussion. We are in the unique position that this is our last meeting. The committee will not have the opportunity to weigh in on this matter. I ask that the Minister of State responds to the Deputy's other questions. I will then come back in on the matter of the airport, perhaps at the end of my contribution, if that is okay.

Deputy James Lawless

Absolutely.

If it was not for the imminent election that we all expect to be called in the next couple of days, it is a topic that I may have well invited the committee to have a dedicated session on. It would have been helpful. It is a pity we did not have it. Time is ahead of us and all that.

An Cathaoirleach

I have my own remarks to make. I was going to ask for the leeway of the committee. I did not need to, as it turns out. Deputy O'Rourke and I are in the very advantageous position of being here with the Minister of State for whatever amount of time this takes. Therefore, let us come back to it.

Deputy James Lawless

Sure.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

On the 20% for private operators in terms of public transport, has that been or will it be considered?

Deputy James Lawless

The young adult card is a scheme that is being rolled out to private operators as well as the public operators. That has been very popular. It has had a great take-up. The 20% fare reduction has not been applied to private operators to date and it is not envisaged it will be in the current year either.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

The Minister of State has name-checked his party colleagues in the mid-east very well but I am glad he acknowledges the hardest work is being done by myself and my colleague Councillor Maria White on the issues of public transport.

An Cathaoirleach

Thanks very much Deputy. Now I gave you enough leeway. I have a whole list of-----

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I am learning here.

An Cathaoirleach

-----Fine Gael TDs and people. I could reel them off if you like.

I thank the Deputy and also the Minister of State for his responses. I will go through items based on the Estimate and the contribution the Minister of State made earlier. Then, as I mentioned, I would like to go into a little more detail regarding Dublin Airport and recent judicial decisions.

I will start, as Deputy O'Rourke left off, on the fare reductions, which of course are very welcome. This scheme has been a terrific success in terms of promoting public transport options right across the country. A huge number of people are very grateful for the cost reduction and the message it sends, which is that we want people to use public transport. I should point out that it is not without issue, as we have highlighted. I highlighted the irony of being late for this meeting because my trains were late, for instance. However, I would like to hear the Minister of State's own view. I have very strong views regarding making measures such as these permanent; in fact, going further. We have examples within the European Union, in Germany, of fares being reduced to zero and the impact that has had. While I do not think we are anywhere near being able to do that in this country because it would likely grind our public transport service operators, and, indeed, some private operators, to a halt, as an ambition, it should be stated it would be mine. What is the Minister of State's view on that?

Deputy James Lawless

This is a bit wider than the Estimates and is more a policy decision but I am quite happy to engage on it. It is important. In the first instance, before I get into the fares piece, I have always had a very strong view that public transport should be the primary default choice of commuters or travellers for whatever reason. It should not be the car first and people saying "Oh maybe there is a bus I can get as a fallback". It should be the other way around - we should only use the private car if we cannot find an attractive public transport option. It is what I typically have done in my own private life for many years. I will always look at the train or bus timetable first and see if that is the way to go before taking the car on a journey. This is for many reasons. It is more pleasant. You can double job by working on the train and getting your laptop out. I have always said that public transport should be at multiple things. It services distributed communities, which is important at a time when we know we have a shortage of housing supply. People are living further away from home and work and the city is expanding right across constituencies including my own constituency of Kildare North and those in Meath, north Dublin etc. High-quality, frequent public transport actually enables distributed communities because people can live further out and get into work without too many hiccups. Indeed, it also supports distributed communities in terms of extending family and people visiting. For social capital, it is important that people are not becoming isolated while living out in the suburbs, and this will not happen if they are only a Luas or DART connection away from visiting friends and family elsewhere. It also provides equality of opportunity in terms of access to education and to work, and access to advance. All of those things are so critical. That is before we even get to the obvious environmental benefits such as the emissions reductions and reaching all the really important climate change targets we have. There are a number of reasons we should continue to promote public transport. To get there we need a number of things. We need it to be available in the first place. If there is no bus, you cannot get it. We have made great strides in rolling out the network further and further in recent years.

It must be frequent; that speaks for itself. It must be reliable; there is no point waiting for the bus if it does not turn up. That is a fairly fundamental issue. It must be affordable, and we will come back to that in a minute in terms of the fare reductions. There are big ticket items that I really hope will be taken and advanced by the next Government. I am sure, Chairman, that we all hope to be part of the team and returned here the next time around, but we will see - that is up to the people. However, there are a number of big ticket projects for whoever is here the next time around.

BusConnects has 12 spines right across the city. We need to get to the stage where we begin to see the benefits because, let us be honest, there have been some interruptions to communities and some disturbance to residents on different streets, etc. We understand that. Building is always tough, particularly when it takes up some land acquisitions. However, we must get to the stage where we are seeing the benefits and people are getting those services and using those buses to rapidly get to and from work and they begin to talk about how it is actually a great service. That is where we need to get to with the next phase of this.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come in on that specific item because when people think of BusConnects, they think it is a few new buses and a few new drivers, and they ask why it will take until 2030 and potentially beyond to deliver it. The reason, of course, is that the infrastructure requires change and sacrifice. There are communities up and down this city, and I am sure in other cities where BusConnects is being rolled out, that will have to endure inconvenience for that infrastructure to be built in.

In the county town of Swords in my constituency, during the initial phase of discussions about where the bus lanes would go within certain communities, there were objections to the removal or moving of boundary walls of estates that were 5 m, 10 m or 50 m from the nearest homes. If we maintain that attitude, it will be 2040 before the bus lanes are put in. All members are out knocking on people's doors these days. There are probably tens of thousands of volunteers and would-be Members of these Houses knocking on doors. There needs to be that realisation that if we are not prepared to allow for that structural change to happen, particularly within this city, then it will not happen and those services cannot be provided in a reliable way, such that the ghost buses on the app, to which the Minister of State referred, do not persist and we do not end up with three buses showing up at the same time because they are all in the same bottleneck. There has to be an element of reality injected into the conversation about how these infrastructural projects come about and, indeed, how they are delayed. I get quite annoyed about it, to be frank with the Minister of State, particularly when certain arteries within the south city are talked about with some sort of fondness for the past. The reality is that, as a Government, through climate action commitments and, indeed, commitments by the Department of Transport and its agencies, trees that might be removed will be replaced and, although the aesthetic is being lost, the benefit far outweighs that, in my humble opinion.

Deputy James Lawless

That is a very helpful and insightful comment. The Chairman is correct. We need to take a little bit of inconvenience - I will not say "pain" - to get to the final goal, which is a far more streamlined, efficient and effective public transport system. BusConnects is not just a few buses and a few routes. It is actually public transport corridors and quality bus corridors, which involve construction. I have been talking to the engineers involved. This is not just a couple of traffic cones. This is a fully fledged construction project that is under way. There are other projects to look at. The metro to the airport is under way. I have met with and spoken to Dr. Sean Sweeney, our esteemed project director, who has had a very accomplished career and is a very impressive individual, on a number of occasions. That project is kicking off.

As regards the DART+ expansion, I know the Chairman will be very familiar with the DART+ Coastal North expansion up to Drogheda, as well as the DART+ Coastal South down to Greystones and perhaps Wicklow. Planning permission has been secured from An Bord Pleanála for DART+ West to extend out to Maynooth. We are hoping to drive that on further, to Kilcock and possibly even to Enfield at some stage. As regards DART+ South West, planning permission is expected imminently from An Bord Pleanála to go to Hazelhatch and Celbridge. The next stage is on to Sallins and potentially into Newbridge and other towns in due course.

They are really important transformative projects. I have talked about Dublin because it is the capital city and it is where the greater bulk of the commuting population live, but, with regard to the regions, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford are also getting BusConnects and local rail and light rail systems. As well as this, there are a number of Luas projects, including for Finglas, Poolbeg and Lucan. Luas Finglas was approved by Cabinet last week. We really are steaming ahead on all these projects.

To double back to the comment on fares, these projects cost significant moneys. There is a view that they are mega infrastructural projects. My strong view is that spending on transport infrastructure pays big dividends economically and in community gains. It is well worth spending on and we need to continue doing it. With regard to where we go on fare reductions, the evidence and international experience suggests the most important metrics, as mentioned earlier, are availability, frequency and reliability - having a bus or train available that is frequent and reliable. The element of how much it costs is probably slightly less important than these other three. The top three are about making it work, getting people where they need to go and being reliable.

I welcome the continuation of the fare reductions we have had. We will have a challenge in future years regarding how we will fund the service. Should it be self-funding, whereby the revenue collected would go back into it? There has always been a degree of State subvention. It is how public transport works. Public transport rarely, if ever, generates a surplus or a profit. This is not how it is intended to work. There will be subvention and the question is what degree of subvention is required. There is also the question of whether it takes from other projects as there might be other expansionary goals. It is an interesting question and perhaps it is something that would deserve a full discussion on its own.

There is also some evidence to suggest there is a certain point at which it becomes very attractive and further reductions beyond that point do not necessarily take people out of their private vehicles onto a bus or train but encourage people to leave their bikes at home or not take other active travel measures. It is all good, to be honest. If people are using a tram for two stops or 20 stops it does not really matter because they are still using it and this is welcome. It should be available. It should be very much affordable to all, including students, younger persons and older persons. This is key. There comes a certain point where there are diminishing returns once it is affordable. I am not convinced it should always be free. There are other policy considerations in this regard but this is a discussion for another day. If we are back here again next time, in whatever role, it is a discussion we can take up.

An Cathaoirleach

For the record, at the beginning of the meeting I did not offer the apologies of Deputies Feighan and Matthews, who are unable to make it to the meeting. Deputy Cathal Crowe is also unable to attend due to a bereavement. On behalf of the committee I offer our deepest and most heartfelt condolences to him and his family on their recent tragic loss over the weekend.

Deputy James Lawless

I would like to be associated with the condolences to Deputy Crowe. On Sunday morning the Tánaiste informed me what had happened. We are all in shock in the wider party and in the wider system. My condolences to Deputy Crowe and his family.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure Deputy Crowe would be here and participating in this conversation. It is a shock and we spoke before the meeting.

There are a few items I would like to touch on. The first point I want to raise is the underspend by our Coast Guard. The Minister of State mentioned that €18 million was allocated due to an underspend in the Coast Guard. He also mentioned the new fixed-wing aircraft, which I believe has been acquired and is being certified. How did the €18 million underspend arise? The new contract for search and rescue was mentioned. I have not been briefed on it but I understand it has been taken up by a new company. Perhaps the Minister of State will touch on this. Will we see increased numbers of aircraft? I presume the S-92 helicopters are being replaced by AgustaWestland or some such company. I ask the Minister of State to give us an idea of this.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will deal with the building programme first. With regard to the figures I mentioned on the Coast Guard spend being carried over, the building programme has not moved as rapidly as we might have hoped. There has been some transition of certain projects to the OPW. They have been devolved to the OPW. There were some administrative handovers that probably delayed things. This has meant there has been an underspend. Certain facilities that were anticipated as being built or advanced in the current year have been carried over to next year. This is how the underspend has arisen with regard to facilities.

The Coast Guard helicopter contract is very exciting. I have met the team. Bristow is the new contracted provider.

I met with its leads. I was on location to take delivery of the first helicopter when it arrived at the end of the summer. I had a technical briefing on the machines and equipment and I am confident they are going to take us into the next generation of search and rescue and all things the Coast Guard needs to do. They come with a fleet of operatives, people who are highly trained in all of the different services the Coast Guard provides. They will be complementary to our existing dedicated Coast Guard team, both professional and volunteer, around the country. They are arriving. I think a number of them have already arrived and there are a few more coming into being and they will be located in various bases around the country – some are operating out of the west and others are operating out of the west and the south-west coast. Each region has a base and equipment available to it. That is a very important progression.

There has been some commentary in the media about the new helicopters and perhaps some negative commentary, which is a bit unfair. There were technical criteria for the new helicopters in terms of their ability to manoeuvre and to access mountain tops, whether they can open one or two doors on each side. I am being very simplistic about it as I am not a helicopter operator but the new helicopters can navigate coastal terrain, mountainous terrain, challenging terrain, cliffsides, choppy waters, etc. - perhaps things a larger helicopter may have difficulty doing. I refer to their accessibility to and flexibility in certain situations. There are a number of different metrics they were assessed on and I am quite confident they deliver on all of those. I should also add that the Coast Guard has invested in drones, which does not require a significant limelight on expenditure, but I mention it in terms of technology being adopted to complement need.

There are new helicopters and new drones but first and foremost I want to thank the Coast Guard corps around the country for their the professionalism, dedication and work. Since working in this Ministry, I have been continually impressed by their commitment to their work.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I have no desire to get into the technical details either, but it might be useful to understand the criteria used in that particular contract period. As to the capabilities of the aircraft, again I am not going to get into the technical details. I am not aware of the AgustaWestland being used for search and rescue, SAR, in other jurisdictions. However, I may be incorrect in that assessment.

On the endurance of the aircraft, unless it is a new and modern aircraft with extended duration, I would have thought the S-92 would have been a more appropriate one. If we look at the aircraft used in the North Sea, they are virtually all S-92s - and I have been on one myself - or aircraft of that type whereas the AW 139 is not of that type. Again that is my own meagre knowledge of the capacity of that type of aircraft. If the Minister of State has time today, tomorrow or on Thursday morning, could he provide the committee, through the secretariat, with a short note on the capability question of the aircraft versus what we had? I presume the €18 million is capital and therefore may go to alteration and expansion of existing services within the four bases. I am thinking in particular about the viability of Waterford Airport. On behalf my good friend and colleague, Senator John Cummins, and, indeed, our ministerial colleague, I am asking about the future of the Waterford base and whether there might capacity for or a requirement for another base. I understand there are four aircraft with one in reserve. That is the old criteria. Is that still the case?

Deputy James Lawless

There are slightly more than there were before. We will have an increase in aircraft. Possibly six, although I do not want to put a figure on it today. There will be more than there were previously.

An Cathaoirleach

Technically you can now say they have a fixed wing one, so it is five. Maybe they are running two out of the same location. Regarding the rotary-wing aircraft, it is four bases. Is there any capacity or requirement for expansion of that?

Deputy James Lawless

I can certainly provide a note for the committee on that. I understand they are using that spare. The Dutch as well as other jurisdictions may use them in search and rescue.

I think Bristow was operating helicopters in the North Sea in the 1980s so it has some pedigree in this service for this line of work. It is a very reputable and established company which has been around for generations. I am very confident in both the craft and the company itself. We will arrange for a note to be sent to the committee on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that. I thank the Minister of State.

I appreciate the Department of Transport is looking at these issues from a cost perspective. There is a long-held view that sometimes costs should be set aside when it comes to our Defence Forces performing this function as it did for many generations. That conversation has passed. Unfortunately, I understand there was work done to evaluate whether it was appropriate to give it back to the Defence Forces. Clearly that conversation was relatively short which I regret. I am of the view that coastguard rescue services should be firmly and completely in the control of the State and not dependent on a private company regardless of its standing and tenure. That is my particular view.

I raise the Road Safety Authority’s recent news about what I will call its viability as it has been running at a loss. It performs a vital function in our State. While it has its critics, and there are the usual suspects who talk about it in a very negative way, it does provide an essential service. Are we to assume that the Road Safety Authority is an organisation which is not expected to turn a profit? If it is an organisation that is not expected to turn a profit on the basis that it provides a vital service, how are those of us who are members of Government parties, for now at least, to sustain the vital services it provides without having these conversations? There are people speaking ill of the authority while its chair is contributing to newspaper articles saying it cannot perform its function unless it is funded appropriately. It is a circular argument that gets us nowhere as a body politic.

Deputy James Lawless

I will stay with helicopters and the coastguard. On the Defence Forces capacity, there is a provision in the contract that the Defence Forces could begin to play a greater role over the lifetime of the contract. Certain technical specifications and so on would have to be met on both sides for that engagement to proceed but it is something that is envisaged as a possibility. This means the Defence Forces are not quite out of the picture completely - there is provision for them to get more involved over time. I am not sure if it is in the contract but certainly in the overall objective of the engagement, there is a goal that the new helicopter fleet could serve a number of uses. It would be primarily search and rescue but, for example, we held meetings with the HSE recently on potential collaboration on helicopter emergency medicine, HEM. If someone is in a near-fatal or catastrophic accident and needs immediate attention, it is possible that the helicopter fleet can be dispatched for those kinds of incidents. It is early days of this being worked through but the intention of the business case to support it was that the helicopters might have multiple uses for the greater good. It is important to recognise that.

The RSA has been challenged and is being challenged now. That is why another Supplementary Estimate is being voted through today to provide funding for it to get to the end of the year. Since its inception, the RSA’s revenues have been entirely dependent on income generated from the services it provides: the NCT, driver permits, driver testing, commercial vehicle testing and similar services. There is a sort of polluter pays principle which is standard in many industries, such as banking, where there is a regulator which is funded by the industry. I am not at all calling drivers the polluters but the industry paying for itself is a very common standard used across many industries. However, it does not always work and it is not always appropriate.

In the current instance, what we are seeing is that, first, there have been operational deficiencies in terms of the provision of services by the RSA. For example, NCTs are not being provided on time, driver testing is not being provided on time and while commercial vehicle testing is about where it needs to be now, it was not for a while. Some of the other services provided are just about right but there have been three years, year on year, where we saw a failure to meet service levels. That is not acceptable to me as Minister of State, to the Department or, more importantly, to the people who are relying on those services to get to work, college or where they need to go, and need to have a car that is roadworthy and certified or to have a driving licence. Let us not forget that they are paying for these services. It is not a gift. It is something they contract for and are obliged by law to have. There was a need to examine that and to seek to drive greater operational efficiencies.

A separate arm of the RSA that is very important is the road safety advocacy piece which, in whatever new incarnation it ends up, needs to include a strengthened research arm that will look at emerging trends. I have just come from a meeting with driver test instructors and we were having a discussion, which is also ongoing in the Department, about how a modern vehicle is almost unrecognisable compared to the vehicle of 20 years ago. Whether it is electric, diesel or petrol, whether it has CarPlay, AppPlay or some other infotainment system built into the dashboard, whether it has a GPS on the dashboard or on a sticky on the screen, car technology has continued to evolve in many ways. Even the noise an electric vehicle makes is very low when compared to traditional engines. There are many new elements to a journey in a motor car. This is something the RSA and other stakeholders, including the driver instructors I was speaking to earlier, need to stay abreast of as they continue to evolve their curriculum, their advocacy, their guidance or their campaigns to show the latest trends and explain what people need to be aware of.

The RSA has done very important work and continues to do it. We are in a much better position regarding road safety than we were when the RSA started out 20 years ago. I believe 149 deaths is the latest count, or perhaps 151 after the weekend. Every death is a tragedy and every death that could be avoided should, of course, be avoided. However, we were in the high 300s when it started out, so it has done a huge amount of good work. The intention going forward is that the restructure will see an operational arm, which will perform the services, such as the NCT, driver testing and the mechanical services, in one agency, and then a separate entity. Whether that is an agency, an executive agency or an arm of the Department is yet to be decided, but a separate entity would do important work and would be independent of the operational piece. I believe that will drive better performance on both sides of the fence.

An Cathaoirleach

I see an underspend with regard to greenways, which is a slight disappointment. There is a greenway under construction in my constituency, linking Malahide and Donabate. It can only be constructed on a seasonal basis due to the sensitivities of the land. I commend the Department on its prior grants and Fingal County Council on the significant work it has done. It is a little disappointing to see other projects being delayed and, as a result, having funding unspent. Would the Minister of State like to go into detail on the greenways? I will then have perhaps three or four more questions.

Deputy James Lawless

I hear the point the Chairman is making and agree with it. I would also be disappointed if I thought the greenways were not progressing. For the reassurance of the Chairman and anyone following this, that funding is being reallocated within the same subhead, so while it is technically coming from the greenways, it remains within active travel. It may not be for a greenway per se but it is for another active travel measure, so it is within the same broad subhead and has just been moved from one column to another. It is not going off to fund a totally separate type of activity and is staying within the same broad policy area.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the basis for the underspend in the first instance?

Deputy James Lawless

Every transport project has its own challenges in terms of securing planning, going through Part 8, community consultation, the tender and then the issue of construction companies being available. I am sure the Chairman sees, as I do in my constituency, that the sequence does not always flow as quickly or as smoothly as we would like. There have been a couple that just did not-----

An Cathaoirleach

If the Malahide project is anything to go by, that took 12 years from ambition to the commencement of delivery. I take the point but I thank the Minister of State for the answer.

Deputy James Lawless

As a councillor for the Sallins-Naas area, I tabled a motion at the first council meeting of the 2014 term for the greenway from Sallins to Hazelhatch to be performed. I was delighted to open it in January of this year, so that took ten years. It is up and running and it is great. It was not yesterday.

An Cathaoirleach

I can better that. I was the mayor of Fingal and I remember mentioning it in my opening statement as mayor in 2008. We will move on.

Deputy James Lawless

They are both done now at least.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O'Rourke mentioned a number of new services. The Minister of State in his opening statement went into great detail about train services regarding Drogheda and the charging facilities that have been put in there for DART+ Coastal North. I believe there is a charging facility for the Maynooth line as well. I am sure there will, ultimately, be facilities in south Dublin if it is deemed necessary to put them in or if the overhead lines cannot be put in at the same time. I said in my opening remarks as Chair of this committee that we are very much in the midst of a revolution when it comes to the provision of public transport. The rail network is a fantastic example of where, if you put the money in, the reward is very obvious and tantalisingly close for a lot of communities, particularly in the Minister of State's constituency and county that he mentioned and in my own.

I am, however, ever so slightly concerned, given the track record of the delivery of this sort of project, that we may see planning delays. The four-tracking of the northern commuter line from Clontarf Road to Malahide to provide capacity and space for more frequent services, about which this committee had a conversation with Mr. Meade and his colleagues from Irish Rail, and the DART+ Coastal North and battery-electric services that are to be provided in January 2026, which is just 13 and a half months from now, may be problematic because of the experience we suffered as a result of that timetable change that I know the Minister of State is only too aware of and which, indeed, my constituents are thoroughly browned off with. It is a little on the frustrating side when I think about the likes of that capital infrastructural project plan - 4 North, as Irish Rail is calling it. I understand a report will be published in the new year. My concern is that capital project, and I do not think it would be unfair of me to say it, is likely to take a decade to deliver because it involves CPOs, assessments, surveys and all those things, while keeping the northern commuter line flowing, which adds a layer of complexity.

When it comes to overhead lines being installed in Kildare, south Dublin, Wicklow, north Dublin, Meath and Louth, what assurances can the Minister of State give the committee and the listening public that everything that can be done is being done with regard to planning processes and the expenditure of public funds through the Department and its agencies on the delivery of these absolutely essential services? I would love to have to have a plan on my desk here setting out how we plan to electrify rail services throughout the whole country and how we plan to reconnect counties that have not had a rail service in a couple of generations - the north west, for example, and even Meath. There are parts of Meath and north Kildare that had services but no longer do, and yet now they are very viable commuter communities, as the Minister of State well knows, and do not have train services. Perhaps my question relates to ambition and perhaps the Minister of State might touch on that in his response.

Deputy James Lawless

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will take the second half of the question first, in terms of the plan for the whole country and island. We recently unveiled the all-island strategic rail review. It is a blueprint and map for the Thirty-two Counties of the island to have a connected strategic infrastructure corridor crisscrossed with railways. That is the starting point for the ambition.

Some projects will, of course, come into being sooner than others. That plan goes out to 2050. I very much hope and believe that a lot of the essential services will be delivered long before that. The Cathaoirleach is a keen supporter of the DART+ Coastal North and the four tracks on the northside. Some issues relating to the new timetable were attributed to a lack of four tracks in certain places. Eventually, certain pull-in points, lay-bys, etc., were used inventively by Irish Rail to address some issues and that proved the point that the four tracks are very desirable. I would say the same regarding the line to my area. We could do with four tracks to Newbridge and beyond. We can do a number of things.

In terms of planning, the Cathaoirleach, like me and every Member of these Houses, would like to see things happen faster, better and more quickly and cheaply. We all want infrastructure advanced, but it is a complex system. We are in a situation whereby communities, stakeholders, residents and others affected can have their say. We have outsourced or delegated that to an independent function for a variety of solid historical reasons.

We have taken action in government to address some of the bottlenecks. It is always a balance in terms of the separation of powers. We want an independent planning system, but at the same time we want to assist those engaged in deliberations. We have provided more resources to An Bord Pleanála in recent times. We have appointed multiple new inspectors. The Houses recently passed the Planning and Development Act, which, as the Cathaoirleach will be aware, intends to fast-track a number of planning processes through the system.

We recently set in place the planning court to allow for judicial reviews to be taken. I hope they are taken as a last resort, but where they are taken or it is appropriate for them to proceed, resources have been provided. I understand three judges have been appointed to that division to hear those cases.

Additional resources for An Bord Pleanála, the new Planning and Development Act and the new planning court mean that planning will be progressed faster and more smoothly and with successful outcomes. Perhaps some issues will be front-loaded through the new Planning and Development Act so that by the time something gets to the planning process it is pretty much oven-ready.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Minister of State to put his professional hat on for a moment. A planning court is something we discussed in another committee in the recent past. I refer to the capacity to refer these matters, in particular when it comes to judicial reviews of decisions made by our planners, specifically the strategic infrastructure planning applications that are going through, of which there are multiple such cases pending and in process to be submitted.

We are expanding our courts, and the Minister of State has been quite forthright in pushing that agenda quite effectively - in his prior role he was very familiar with that. That process is part of the change to and redirection of the planning and development laws we have progressed through these Houses and which will shortly be implemented. I refer to the legal elements of those decisions being made and the consequences and delays that judicial reviews, among other things, can have on such projects.

I go back to my original point on how elements of the Bus Connects projects were shelved or slowed because of that process barrier compared with what we are now seeing. I believe we are now up to contract 6a of the 12 BusConnects projects or routes being rolled out. A more responsive and agile judicial process would be helpful in that regard. The Minister of State might give a brief response to that.

Deputy James Lawless

When the Cathaoirleach refers to a more responsive and agile process, what does he mean?

An Cathaoirleach

I mean in terms of time. A judicial review of transport infrastructure processes can take months. A case can take six months to be heard and the process itself can take whatever amount of time is necessary to hear the case. There is a need for us to fast-track that process in some way. I refer to the establishment of a planning wing, a planning court, within the Judiciary to try to get us out of these things.

The Minister of State's views on that would be welcome.

Deputy James Lawless

I agree, Chairman, but that has effectively been done. A new planning court was launched earlier this year. To my knowledge, Mr. Justice Humphreys, Mr. Justice Simons and another judge are assigned to that. Therefore, there are three judges sitting in that division. The Dublin Airport cap that we discussed at the start of the meeting is a good example of an application that was made perhaps six weeks ago and, certainly, the first stage of it was heard yesterday. I would be familiar in my professional work prior to my current role of other cases that would have progressed with some alacrity when it was needed. Courts are responsive and live in the real world as well. If an argument is made to a judge that a particular item is of greater urgency, it usually gets treated that way and afforded that time. We are seeing that already. I will give the assurances to the Chairman and the watching public that a planning court was established earlier this year. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, attended the opening of it along with some colleagues on the day. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, may have been present as well. That has been up and running now for about six months.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to mention two other items aside from the airport, one of which is the reallocation of funding for the A5, which the Minister of State mentioned in his opening remarks. Could he give us a brief overview as to how that arose? Before I comment on the airport, the Minister of State spoke with Deputy O'Rourke earlier about capacity issues and the responsibility of the NTA and others to be responsive to demand issues, particularly the oversubscription of services. I am specifically referring to Bus Éireann and the 101 service, which is an eastern seaboard service to Dublin City University, DCU. The difficulty is, of course, that when third level institutions resumed in September, buses were passing by both travelling students and the general public by the time they reached north Dublin, specifically Balbriggan and other towns in the northern end of what is now to be Dublin Fingal West. Obviously, it is very problematic, particularly when I get a response from the service provider telling me that it is monitoring it or whatever. However, it does not really have capacity to add another bus. Maybe it will have capacity to add a larger bus, but we need to re-evaluate sometimes, and I am sure this is probably applicable in the Minister of State's county, as to how we respond to demand-led problems. There is nothing worse, as I am sure the Minister of State will agree, than dutifully going out to use public transport to cut down on one's emissions and, indeed, reduce costs of congestion and then have the bus drive straight by.

Deputy James Lawless

Absolutely. The Chairman's first question was about the €29 million from the A5 Border to Derry project. That is part of a wider project to connect the north west. That goes from Clontibret in Monaghan across the Border right through Derry into Donegal and beyond. That is a very significant commitment by Government. It is aligned with the shared island project in terms of cross-Border funding. The price tag is much greater than €29 million. It is multiple of that, in fact. However, the €29 million that was allocated is not required in the current year. It will not be drawn down at this stage. It is being carried over and that will from part of separate Estimates for next year. Rather than having that sort of wither on the vine, it is being reallocated within public transport services.

As the Chairman mentioned, it is so important that we ensure the reliability and capacity of those buses. Indeed, one thing I will continue to progress, including today and with the NTA, is the need for capacity on all routes. The Chairman mentioned a bus passing by that is full. I have seen that in my constituency as well. More double-deckers were mentioned earlier, and more buses in general, not only in terms of the routes that are established but the people who are travelling on them. That is really important. Ultimately, the bus service must be flexible and responsive when there are demands. In my area, when Maynooth college used to start ever year, the service supplied it with a particular number of buses.

Within two weeks I would get calls from students or families as a local representative and I am sure other members do as well. I would ring the bus operator and they would pretty much say, "That is grand. We will tweak it next week". Then they try it out. Every year there are different demands and different patterns. Within a few weeks of starting, they would say they would add a bus or occasionally they would take a bus off or put it on at a different time, depending on demand. A lot of this is trial and error but it is important to be responsive, so where there is great demand we can increase capacity and where there is less demand we can reallocate it somewhere else. That is just good management.

There will always be constraints with the funding and that is why we are here today with the Supplementary Estimate to make sure we can get more funding where it is needed. For the fleet, we need to invest in capital expenditure to purchase the new carriages. The DART+ fleet is one particular project. Rail carriages and bus carriages are no different in that they need to be commissioned, built and then put into service. We have also talked about the driver and mechanic shortage. Those trades are now going on the critical skills list, which should assist in recruitment and retention going forward.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I will conclude by taking the opportunity to revisit the conversation we had a little earlier in relation to Dublin Airport, as this is our last committee meeting scheduled before we presume the plug is pulled on the Thirty-third Dáil. It is necessary for me to commend the Minister of State's frankness in his remarks as to how we got here. As I have said in the past, often it is lost when we listen to the usual vested bellowing interests on our airwaves telling us that it is easy and that we can fix it like that, but we cannot because it is a legal and planning process that must be followed. We can revisit this issue. The committee has heard first hand from the Dublin Airport Authority. I attended a meeting in a private capacity, as it transpired, with the board of the DAA and heard there were constraints as to why it could not apply to change the planning conditions until recently. I am afraid that I cannot accept this assertion. I have eyes, I have a brain and I have access to add the sequence of events that have gotten us to the point we are at. Having met with all parties, with the exception of the airlines, which are subject to the case that culminated in an interim decision yesterday - as I will call it - by a member of the Judiciary, there is reputational damage to consider, although it was quite the correct decision by the regulator to curtail the operations of Dublin Airport for next year in order to adhere to the law of the land. It is another discussion, which I will come back to, that we have to comply with such a decision from 2007, but I am extremely frustrated. From reading what the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, and what the Minister, Deputy Ryan, had to say it appears that we share the frustration that the reputational damage potentially caused by the sequence of events that led us to this decision being made, rightly, by the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, and then ultimately it having to go to court because the airport operator failed to adequately address these issues in a timely manner. This was all coupled with - I hate to say - a very slow and long-winded process to get us to this point in what is an extremely complex area of flight paths and finding the least worst option, as I have phrased it in the past, so that it impacts the least number of people. This is interrelated to the overall conversation about airport expansion because, quite bluntly, one cannot expand Dublin Airport's operation with the current flight paths and particularly those that use the new north runway. I would encourage the Minister of State to sit in Kilcoskan National School or on the outskirts of Ashbourne and witness what it has been like for families and children experiencing that. I ask the Minister of State to bear in mind that these communities live next to an airport and they do expect aircraft noise.

They expect aircraft noise but they never expected aircraft flying directly over their heads because it was never envisaged as such. It is appropriate to reflect on that in our closing remarks.

The overall issue I will touch upon is the fact that this is a legal process. In response to Deputy O'Rourke's question, the Minister of State said that we now have a decision on this issue. That decision calls into question the legitimacy of a planning condition. I am not questioning the planning condition. It was made in good faith at the time but I do not think it applies any more. Maybe that is what the justice based his decision on. However, I am concerned that the courts can just set something aside, notwithstanding that it was likely the right decision, as I said. Again, I am not questioning the judicial decision. That is not our place in this House. I am concerned, from a general perspective, for instance, entertaining an international treaty, that it somehow trumps domestic planning law. That is a bit peculiar. How can the Department respond to this issue that has arisen and ensure that we are not here in six months, or in 12 months in particular, and a resolution to this issue can be found that can be reached as quickly as possible, notwithstanding the fact planning is in process? A decision is before Fingal County Council. How can we aid that local authority to expedite the decision, which will ultimately have an overall impact on the operations at Dublin Airport?

Deputy James Lawless

There is a lot there. I will probably not respond to all of it in detail but I noted what the Chair said and hear exactly the points he is making.

I will make a couple of comments. I have visited the communities around the airport. I have sat in houses in St. Margaret's and areas that are very much affected. I am not sure I was in the exact school mentioned but I certainly was in, or passed, a school very close to it, when I was in St. Margaret's. I have heard for myself the aircraft overhead. It is a complex issue. I welcome and agree with the comments that oversimplification of it by some actors has been unhelpful to the process. There are a lot of moving parts in terms of the systems and the different decisions. We have a noise quota system monitored by ANCA, which is a subagency of Fingal County Council. A decision on night flights was made recently, which is now under consideration by An Bord Pleanála. These are before we even get near the cap. These are separate decisions that have serious implications for all of those.

A strategic infrastructure concept is outlined in legislation. When they were drafted in the early noughties, the planning and development Acts included a number of different types of projects designated as strategic infrastructure, which meant they could bypass the normal local authority planning process. Dublin Airport was one of those until 2019, when the then Minister, Shane Ross, moved it back to Fingal County Council. That was done for a variety of reasons. It was primarily to allow for a noise agency to consider noise applications and have a court of appeal, going back to An Bord Pleanála as a second-level appeals body. One could debate whether that was the right call at the time. People make decisions at the time for various reasons and with various advices. It strikes me, and has often struck me, that perhaps it would have been better remaining within strategic infrastructure or some new version of that.

Having said that, it is important to put on the record that Fingal County Council, in my experience, has not delayed or contributed to delays at all. It has moved very rapidly when it has been put to it.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely.

Deputy James Lawless

I know the Cathaoirleach is not saying that it has delayed matters. The issue is more that Fingal County Council has not had things put to it until very recently. For example, the DAA only made a planning application in December 2023.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand it took seven months for the DAA to come back with some additional information.

Deputy James Lawless

With some further information, yes. I am not sure whether that has been submitted yet. It may about to be. There have also been discussions about an application for a simplified form of application that would be what is called the operational application, which has not been made yet.

That would be beneficial. The sooner it is made, the sooner it will be processed. A planning authority is only as good as the material it is supplied with and the applications that come into it. If it has not got applications, it cannot-----

An Cathaoirleach

How would the Minister of State characterise something like that, when we are faced with a series of events and the airport operator is telling us we have impediments that should not be in place, even though the operator itself is causing the delays?

Deputy James Lawless

It is probably not helpful to apportion blame around the table today. I am mindful of ongoing litigation.

An Cathaoirleach

To be fair, Minister of State, you did it. You did it in a very indirect way, but you did it.

Deputy James Lawless

The DAA itself has said in recent interviews it should have acted sooner. I welcome that acknowledgement and think it is correct. I have said it on a number of occasions. There are live planning applications and a live judicial process, even though an interim decision has been made. As I said at the outset and in my statement last night, it is important all players in the system are aware and the public is aware that yesterday's decision is by no means an end in itself. It is very much an interim stay. There is much work to be done. Regardless of the ultimate determination in the courts, which is listed for December, and regardless of any interaction of EU treaties, open skies, EU-US treaties, other international laws and the Irish planning system, the simplest way to address this is for the planning application to be lodged correctly, coherently and comprehensively and for the planning authority to have the opportunity to study it, process it and arrive at a decision. If necessary, an appeal process will take place - that is part of the system at the moment - but ultimately it is that the planning authority would arrive at a decision under planning rules. That is the system we have. It works in most instances. It works best when it is supplied with the information it needs when it needs it. An early application gets an early decision and a late application gets a late decision. I think these are all fair statements to make.

All involved should take maximum advantage of the short leeway provided by the court decision to move forward expeditiously. Resources have been provided to the different agencies, including An Bord Pleanála. I have taken advice on various other options. There are limited options available to Government, if any. I have been exploring that with the Attorney General recently, but the options are limited. I can say that much for sure. The preferred way for everybody through this is that the planning process does its work. It needs everyone to co-operate and move quickly. I will leave it at that because there are other processes ongoing with this.

There is another point I will make and have made a number of times. While I have been clear that I would like to see the passenger cap lifted, and while the ultimate outcome I desire, although the planning process must do its work, is that the cap be lifted because I think the airport can go to 40 million, and I have been clear in saying that and it is consistent with the national aviation policy of the Department and previous Ministers, that said, we have additional capacity in Shannon and Cork airports. Five million extra seats are available right now in those two airports. We also have smaller airports around the country. No good reason not to use that capacity has been advanced in more than 20 meetings with stakeholders. They were helpful, informative and constructive meetings, by and large. A total of 86% of our air traffic goes through Dublin Airport. Dublin has a significant percentage of the population but it is not 86%. If we did this proportionately, we would not have 86% of people flying out of Dublin and we would have a much greater percentage flying out of Shannon and Cork. I encourage people to explore the alternatives that exist. Regardless of what happens with the cap and with Dublin, there are perfectly good airports up and running around the country.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. We have gone slightly off topic in this Estimates meeting but it is a very worthwhile conversation to have on Dublin Airport and aviation in the country. The Minister of State is quite right about regional airports. I would interlink the all-island strategic rail review with the future capacity of some airports, particularly Shannon.

Deputy James Lawless

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their attendance and engagement.