Select Sub-Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate

Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs (Revised)

Chairman

I remind committee members to turn off mobile telephones. I thank members for their attendance and participation. We are meeting to consider the Revised Estimate, Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs for the year ending December 2015. The format in which the Estimates are considered allows us to consider how moneys are allocated to each programme, how moneys are allocated between services and to focus on many aspects of the Department's work. There will be no division and no officials will speak, only the Minister, for the purposes of the meeting. I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. I welcome and congratulate Mr. Fergal Lynch, the Secretary General of the Department of Children And Youth Affairs and I welcome Mr. Dermot Ryan, assistant secretary, Ms. Mary McLaughlin, assistant secretary, Mr. Paul Fay and Mr. Ger Banville, all from the Department.

This is a select committee of the Dáil and we will discuss only Vote 40. The 2015 Revised Estimates were presented to the Dáil in a new programme-based format. This means the Estimates contain the following information for each programme - how the money allocated to the programme is proposed to be spent alongside how it was spent in previous years, and the outturn in each case, the number of staff assigned to work with programmes and how this compares with the previous year, performance-related information, meaning performance indicators are presented alongside financial data for the current year. Finally, administrative expenditure for the Vote as a whole is summarised in more detail than was the case. The Minister will speak first, followed by Opposition spokespersons and then members of the committee. I ask members to ask questions rather than make Second Stage speeches.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy James Reilly)

I thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss the 2015 Revised Estimates for Vote 40 of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The Revised Estimates for 2015 allocated gross funding to my Department of some €1,026 million, which includes over €991 million in current funding and €35 million in capital funding. When appropriations-in-aid receipts of just over €26.6 million are taken into account, the net current funding allocated to my Department in 2015 is some €1,000 million, an increase of €26 million on the 2014 Estimate of €974 million.

Under the new performance accounting arrangements introduced in 2012, the subhead structure of Vote 40 is based on three programme areas: programme A – children and family support programme; programme B – sectoral programmes for children and young people; and programme C – policy and legislation programme. There are two main elements to my Department’s Vote in 2015. First, the Estimate for next year contains significant resources to fund the services and programmes provided by the Child and Family Agency, or Tusla. This amounts to €643 million, representing 64% of the Vote. The balance of €383 million relates to other programmes funded directly by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

The establishment of the Child and Family Agency, or Tusla, in January 2014, saw the delivery of a key programme for Government commitment. This was a historic development and a significant milestone in the programme of this Government to fundamentally reform the delivery of services to vulnerable children and families. In 2015, the agency will have a budget of €643 million, including over €12 million in capital funding. This is an increase of €34 million, or 5.6% over the 2014 provision. While I understand that this level of funding cannot address all of the challenges the agency faces in doing its work, this additional funding will assist the agency in alleviating service pressures in our child welfare and protection services and to also build on the extensive programme of reform, which is well under way.

I met the board of the agency before Christmas and had a useful exchange of views on challenges and opportunities facing it in 2015. Further, I have issued a performance statement to the agency under the Child and Family Act 2013 setting out overall priorities for 2015. The agency is currently finalising its business plan for 2015, which will set out its plans for the year and how it proposes to deploy its resources. I look forward to working with the agency to deliver the best possible outcomes for children and families in 2015.

The agency is also developing a commissioning strategy that aims to ensure that the services it funds are clearly focussed on specific outcomes for children and families and are demonstrably cost-effective and efficient. We have a responsibility to our citizens to ensure that public funding delivers the best possible outcomes for all our children and families.

The 2015 capital provision for the agency is €12.4 million, an increase of €5.6 million over the 2014 provision. Among the important projects that will be advanced are the next phase of the roll-out of the national child care information system and the related upgrade of the agency’s ICT infrastructure. The 2015 provision will also allow for some upgrading of special care facilities. There will also be resources available to support minor capital development works during the course of 2015, including maintenance of existing facilities. I take this opportunity to acknowledge the good work undertaken in its first year by the board of the agency, led by Ms Norah Gibbons, and all of the staff in the agency led by the chief executive, Mr. Gordon Jeyes.

The 2015 Estimate provision contains a sum of €357 million that will allow my Department to deliver a significant level of public services, as well as a number of new policy measures that I will address over the remainder of my statement. The policy framework Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures is the first national policy framework for all children and young people, from birth to age 24. To maximise resources and achieve the best outcomes, it takes a cross-Government approach to working for children and young people. To bring the commitments in this framework to fruition, my Department is developing an implementation plan across a range of Departments and statutory agencies.

The Children First Bill 2014, which will put elements of the Children First: National Guidance for the Protection and Welfare of Children on a statutory footing, was published in April 2014. The core aim of this programme for Government commitment is to raise awareness of the issues of child abuse and neglect, and to clarify the role we all have to play in addressing these, in order to improve the care and protection of all of our children. The Children First Bill aims to make the best safeguarding practice the cultural norm for anyone and everyone who works with children. It has completed Second Stage in the Dáil and I anticipate Committee Stage will be scheduled in the near future. I wish to reassure Deputies that in recognition of the fact that this legislation will create new statutory obligations, the commencement date will be scheduled to ensure that the range of sectors involved have adequate time to prepare for implementation.

I am pleased to say that there will be no reduction in funding for youth services in 2015. An amount of €50 million is being allocated in 2015 to support youth services throughout the country. My Department administers a range of funding schemes and programmes to support the provision of youth services throughout the country, including young people living in disadvantaged communities. Funding from my Department supports youth work provision to some 380,000 young people, involving approximately 1,400 staff in 477 projects, with the vital support of 40,000 volunteers nationwide. I never let the opportunity pass when I speak of volunteerism in this sector to express my appreciation and gratitude, and that of the Government, to the generosity and enthusiasm of these volunteers who make so much possible for us and young people.

This Government recognises the vital importance of investment in the early years of children’s lives. In 2015, my Department will provide over €260 million to support the child care sector to enable children and parents access high quality and affordable child care. To yield these positive outcomes, we know that quality service provision is crucial. In that regard, a range of reforms under the early years quality agenda, aimed at improving the quality of services in the early years sector, is under way and new standard operating procedures have been introduced. Legislation to underpin a number of reforms under the quality agenda has also been introduced. This legislation provides a statutory basis for the registration of early years services, and will introduce a range of new enforcement powers for inspectors at a pre-prosecution level. Regulations to give effect to the legislative changes will be published soon. Under the proposed new system, all early years services will have to be registered in order to operate.

I warmly welcome the fact that budget 2015 has allocated a further €13.6 million in capital investment funding towards the completion of the national children's detention facility project under way in Oberstown, Lusk, County Dublin. In addition to the capital project, the allocation of an additional €1.8 million, in current expenditure in 2015, will provide for the increased operational costs of the extended Oberstown facilities under its expanded role.

The legal framework for detention of children is also being updated to provide for the legal amalgamation of the three existing children detention schools. Also, the repeal of all current legal provisions which permit the detention of children in the adult prison system. I am committed to working with the Oberstown board and campus management to ensure that the current change programme in the children detention school system is completed successfully.

In conclusion, there is no doubt that 2015 will be another busy year for my Department and its agencies. I intend to build on the hard work and effort by all involved in working with children and families – both State and voluntary organisations – in order to deliver on this Government's commitment to fundamentally reform the delivery of child and family services. I hope my statement is of assistance to the committee and I look forward to its input and our discussion on these issues.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and call Deputy Troy.

Deputy Robert Troy

Will each of us make a statement? Will we deal with the Estimates like we did in the past, on a heading by heading basis?

Chairman

Would the Deputy like to make an opening statement?

Deputy Robert Troy

I am happy to deal with the Estimates heading by heading, and every issue under the heading, if my colleagues are.

Chairman

I am in the hands of the committee.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I was going to select a number of areas on which to question the Minister and to make appropriate remarks.

Chairman

Does Deputy Troy wish to deal with each heading or section separately? Does he want to make a brief opening remark first? He is still allowed that facility under the process.

Deputy Robert Troy

I appreciate the Chairman's offer but I do not want to speak just for the sake of doing so. I have listed my questions under each heading that I want the Minister to address. There are two issues he failed to outline in his opening address. One of them relates to legislation and the provision of legislation for the national information and tracing Bill which is critical legislation. My colleague in the Seanad, together with a number of Senators, brought forward a proposal and acknowledged that the Government did not oppose it. When can we see the Government's proposal?

Chairman

Today we are dealing with Estimates more than legislation. I take the point made by the Deputy in terms of the Minister's opening remarks.

Deputy Robert Troy

I shall make the rest of my comments when we deal with each heading.

Chairman

I thank the Deputy. Is Deputy Ó Caoláin happy to proceed?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to make a couple of remarks. I welcome the Minister and his team from the Department.

I wish to refer to the briefing for the select sub-committee that was prepared by the Department. There may be other figures that I have been able to link up in the limited time available to me.

In terms of the Child and Family Agency, the Estimate for 2015 refers to a sum of €631 million and a 4.8% increase. The Minister's commentary mentioned a budget of €643 million and an almost 6% increase. Can he rationalise the discrepancy between the amounts? I refer to page 5 of the 26 pages of the briefing prepared by his Department on Vote 40 under the heading of current expenditure - A.3 Child and Family Agency. The figure shown is €631 million, which represents a 4.8% increase. Perhaps I have missed something. I ask the Minister to refer to the matter.

I am concerned about another matter. I am sure the Minister would support further funding to provide additional support to the Child and Family Agency. I have recently indicated concerns to him, in a series of parliamentary questions, following what I regard as alarming information that there has been a re-classification of some cases where children are determined to be at risk. This has been measured and only those at a particular level of risk then get the focus and address. That situation would cause me considerable concern. There seems to have been a re-determination of the trigger for action within Tusla regarding interventions. Can the Minister comment on the matter? Is he in a position to do so? I have tabled parliamentary questions on the matter but have not had an opportunity to check if responses have been returned. I share that concern with him. That to me, and to those who have spoken to me of this matter, is indicative of the fact that Tusla, by its own admission, could not cope under current budgetary restrictions in terms of the scale of concerns that are presenting. There are two elements to my query - the clarification of the discrepancy in figures and a query about a much more important matter. I ask the Minister to comment on both matters.

Before we discuss the headings I wish to again welcome the establishment of the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes and similar institutions. As the Minister will recall from last Wednesday, the final passage of the Government's resolution had the support of the House, which is important.

Both Deputy Troy and I sought to present amendments on behalf of our parties. I note with hope the spirit of the Minister's remarks, in terms of the commission's potential to expand its address, depending on matters or issues that present in the course of its tenure. I urge the Minister or whoever may be Minister for Children and Youth Affairs on the day, to be mindful of the two days of debate we had around the establishment of the commission of investigation and its terms of reference. They should be mindful of that discussion and of the spirit of the House. I do not refer only to Opposition voices. I acknowledge that these voices also came from the Government side. We do not want to see anybody left behind.

Finally, I seek clarification on a point regarding a reference at the foot of the C8, dealing with total administration but there is no designated letter and number on the entry. It refers to grants to organisations part funded by the national lottery. In the 2014 Estimates-----

Chairman

What section is the Deputy referring to?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is Vote 40 and I am referring to page 5 of the 26-page briefing provided by the Department in advance of today's meeting. I seek clarification as to the organisations and as to why grants part funded by the national lottery to these respective organisations, estimated as €910 million in 2014, are not now to be provided. There is a 100% discounting of these for this year. I will leave it at that for now, but will raise other issues as we come to them.

Deputy James Reilly

I will deal with the Deputy's last question first. I cannot find the reference at the moment, but I know the answer to the question. That is national lottery funding and we decided this year that it would provide just a one-off lottery grant to various services. We made the decision together with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to forego that lottery funding in order to maximise the money we could get for the agency, which is providing its services directly. As a consequence, we managed to get the substantial increase in our budget for Tusla of €26 million.

On the commission of investigation, I echo the Deputy's sentiments. We want this investigation to be as inclusive and expansive as it can be. However, we must always bear in mind that it must be conducted in an expeditious manner so that we get the required response for the group of people at the core of the inquiry, the mothers and babies who were in these homes. We want to achieve this in a timely fashion because as has been pointed out, many of these women are moving on in years.

On the issue regarding the threshold for intervention by Tusla, I have significant information on that. The agency has been undertaking a comprehensive data validation and verification exercise. Therefore, by comparison since the establishment of the agency, data is not yet fully reliable. All children in care should have an allocated social worker. This is the case for 92% of children. The Child and Family Agency has advised that it prioritised children according to need, with the aim of ensuring that any gaps in social work provision were minimal and that duty social workers and foster care social workers had oversight of the child's situation. Referrals regarding emergency cases are dealt with immediately, for example, in situations where a child has been abandoned, is in immediate physical danger or is at immediate risk of abuse. Where a child has not been allocated a social worker, the case is reviewed regularly by the principal social worker to see if there has been any change in the child's situation that would change the priority of the case.

The article in The Irish Times reports an increase in child protection and welfare referrals, from 21,000 in 2006 to 44,200 in 2014, but this is not an appropriate comparison. The Measuring the Pressure report warns that data comparisons prior to 2012 must be treated with considerable caution, as referrals are now counted differently. In previous years, a single recorded case may have included several children in the one family whereas now, a case relates only to an individual child. I am sure the Deputy would agree that is only proper. The number of protection and welfare referrals in 2011 was less than 32,000.

At the end of December, Tusla employed 1,396 whole time-equivalent social workers, an increase of 29 since its establishment. Some 164 social workers have been recruited since the agency was established and a further 219 are at various stages of recruitment. At 6.7%, the turnover of social workers in the agency's first year of operation was less than international comparators. I recall that when previously addressing this committee, the comparative figures for the United Kingdom were much higher, those for the US higher again and those for Western Australia as a percentage was in the low 20s. From memory, the Australian figure was 23%, the US figure 20% and that of the UK was 15%. We all acknowledge this is tough work and the turnover of social workers tends to be quite high. It is a great tribute to the social workers working in our service that we have one of the lowest turnovers in this area. I understand that in the past people liked to compare the turnover of social workers with the turnover of nurses, but that is not an appropriate comparison.

The Deputy expressed concern in regard to the disparity between the 5.6% I mentioned and the 4.8%. The 4.8% increase relates to an increase in the revenue available. A further €12 million odd is available to Tusla in capital and when the two amounts are added together, we get the figure of 5.6%. I apologise for any confusion that may have caused.

I did not intend any disrespect to Deputy Troy in not answering his questions first. In regard to the adoption (information and tracing) Bill, this legislation is being worked on assiduously. We are a small Department and have had significant work to do on the commission of investigation and its terms of reference, but we are working assiduously on the Bill and hope to have it ready in weeks. I had a meeting on some of the heads yesterday and I assure the Deputy the Bill will come to the House long before the summer. I think I have dealt with all the questions and we can move on to the various headings.

Chairman

We will now consider the Estimates formally and performance for both current and capital expenditure for 2015, programme by programme. Programme A, the children and family support programme, excluding administration, is listed as subhead A3.

Deputy Robert Troy

This is the main subhead in terms of the financial allocation. I acknowledge there has been an increase, but I am concerned because last year there was an overrun of €25 million in regard to the new agency. At the lead-in to the budget, the CEO of the agency, Gordon Jeyes, said he would require an additional €45 million for the agency to stand still, but a further €60 million would be required if the agency was to fill the vacant posts and finance essential new developments. In light of this, I have a number of questions.

I have raised the issue of the guardians ad litem, GALs, a number of times. I submitted a parliamentary question last summer on the full year of 2013 and up to August 2014. If the trend continued, the GAL bill would be higher in 2014 than in 2013. I acknowledge this is not an issue of Tusla's making. It is a historical problem, but that said it needs to be addressed. What progress has been made on addressing this situation? It is unbelievable that such large sums of money are being spent on legal representatives.

At the same time, there is a report in The Irish Times, to which the Minister just alluded, on an internal report presented to the board of the Child and Family Agency last week which states,"Backlogs are so acute in some areas that hundreds of extra staff are needed t bring numbers to manageable levels". I emphasise that the report is internal. Unpublished figures show that more than 8,000 abuse, neglect and welfare cases of concern about children at risk are waiting to be allocated a social worker.

What is the situation? Through the last question I asked during questions to the Minister in the Dáil, I raised the issue of the serious shortfall in the number of social workers. I gave the example of a social worker I spoke to who did not even give me her name. She said that instead of feeling they were helping families, social workers now felt they were part of a system that was causing further harm and stress. I asked the Minister in particular about the recruitment process for social workers. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the approval of a social worker must go before an internal committee which is a working group headed up by Mr. Gordon Jeyes. Even an agency or temporary social worker has to be approved by this committee. Social workers are predominantly female and at an age where they will be taking maternity benefit. If a person gives notice after they feel it is appropriate to state that she is pregnant, the notice to take maternity leave will not be considered by the working group until she actually leaves on maternity leave. That causes a further delay in the appointment of replacement social workers. If that is happening, it is a major issue which is contributing to the problem of so many cases remaining without social workers.

On the Children First legislation, to which the Minister alluded, I welcome the fact that it will come before the committee for debate on Committee and Final Stages. I hope the Minister will take some of our amendments on board. The Minister said he will not sign the commencement order for the legislation until there is a proper lead-in time, which is appropriate. My fear relates to the national vetting legislation about which I asked a question during the Order of Business in the Dáil earlier. The legislation was approved by the Oireachtas 18 months ago but the commencement order has not been signed because, perhaps, of the financial implications of doing so. Are we going to be in a situation where we will not be able to put into effect the Children First legislation which will make the reporting of child abuse mandatory? Is the Minister sure that sufficient resources are being allocated under this head to permit the legislation to be passed and commenced this year?

I have raised the school completion programme with the Minister on a number of occasions, most recently before Christmas as a Topical Issue matter. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong but it appears the programme does not have its own head in the Estimates. It falls under the Child and Family Agency. There is a worry that this means it does not have the same priority and may be diluted into the future. If this is a mere perception, the Minister might say so. Preschool inspection services fall under this head also. A further inspection is being approved by the Department of Education and Skills and I wonder if there is a duplication of work at a time when resources are very limited. We should not be duplicating what we should be streamlining. We should ensure that one inspector can do the two jobs rather than to hire an additional one.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I thank the Minster for the clarification on the €12 million capital allocation in his stated allocation for Tusla for 2015. I do not expect the Minister will know but I ask in case he might. Does he have any idea as to how that money might be expended in the course of 2015? Are there any particular projects for which it might be earmarked?

I refer again to an issue I have mentioned to the Minister. It is not to cause him any discomfort, but to say to him that it merits further examination within the Child and Family Agency. When the Minister read out the criteria for intervention, he talked about immediate risk. Those were the words he used in his reply to me. The word "immediate" could constitute something very much in the current. It is very important to bear in mind that we have had over the past 12 months a number of cases that have come to public attention where the word "immediate" as I as a layperson understand it did not or might not have suggested itself, yet there were very serious and tragic outcomes. Substantial risk had been established by social workers in relation to some of those cases. I acknowledge that within the budget here this is not going to be physically possible. This is a problem. We need more investment in Tusla, but I believe and there is a belief outside these walls that because of the constraints of the allocation, Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, has newly determined what the activation quotient must be in terms of immediate risk.

There is a need to accept the following in regard to substantial risk and immediate risk; use whatever marker one will. If a child is established to be at risk, the employment of the word "immediate" is less relevant than it might be in other instances. This is very important and needs to be looked at in the context of the alarming and tragic situations highlighted in the course of the last 12 months. I raise the matter because I fear that those tragic situations will continue to present until we are better provided and better prepared to intervene where a real and substantial risk exists. I ask the Minister to give me whatever response he feels is appropriate, but the reason I raise it is to urge the greatest possible exercise of his and the Department's influence within Government to ensure that no child is left in an unsatisfactory position of risk because we are not able to fund the necessary supports and interventions.

The Minister mentioned, in his response on this area to questions I have posed previously, the numbers in respect of recruitment.

Approximately 100 additional social workers have been recruited while more than 200 "are in the process of...". "In the process of" has been cited to the committee on many occasions previously. It must be a long process. I acknowledge it is important that we have the right people to do this most important work. Can the Minister give a breakdown of the recruitment process and how it applies to the number in process at this point in time? When will they get across the line and be properly engaged in the work that they, and we, hope they will undertake?

The Minister also failed to point out that there is a greater turnover of social workers. Statistics have shown that to be the case over a number of years. A considerable number leave not only at the end of their natural life service. Prior to the Minister taking up this portfolio, a comparison of previous recruitment data and the exodus of social workers highlighted a net loss. Will the Minister focus on that to give us a sense of where we are at? What is the total number in service? By "in service", I do not include those who are on sick leave, maternity leave, career breaks through whatever special arrangement may apply, and so on. How speedily does he expect the number in process to move forward into their intended roles as social workers under the Child and Family Agency?

Deputy James Reilly

Deputy Troy mentioned the issue of the GALs. This has also concerned Tusla, the Department and me. We have examined different systems in Europe, the UK and Northern Ireland, in particular. We have put proposals to Tusla, which are being examined currently. The agency's officials are exercised about this issue. There is no doubt that much greater regulation is needed in this area. For instance, regulation of who can be a GAL is needed. Currently, anyone can be a GAL. We are examining this and proposals are in train. As is only right, given the agency will implement them, Tusla will examine the practicalities around that. The Deputy is correct that this is an important issue and we are acting on it.

Social workers were mentioned. Deputy Troy said the chief executive officer is involved. The chief operations officer, Mr. Fred McBride, is involved in the social worker issue. We have an obligation to ensure resources are apportioned appropriately across the system by the agency and, therefore, it has a process in place to review vacancies as they arise and to determine, for example, where and when these should be filled. Reallocation of posts may be required. The Deputies are correct about turnover and about staff on maternity leave. At the end of 2013, Tusla employed 1,396 whole-time equivalent social workers, an increase of 29 or 2.1% since its establishment. A total of 164 social workers have been recruited since the agency was established and a further 219 are at various stages of recruitment. At 6.7%, the turnover of social workers in the agency's first year of operation is less than international comparators. A total of 112 left the agency in 2014 - 20 retirements and 92 for other reasons such as career breaks. Turnover in this area is partly a reflection of the challenging nature of the work because it involves working closely with extremely vulnerable and marginalised children.

The age and gender of the profession is also a factor, as the Deputy said, with some teams under pressure due to maternity leave. A total of 92 social workers are currently on maternity leave. We have a pilot maternity leave scheme whereby temporary workers can be offered a 12 month contact to cover maternity leave and, in addition to ongoing recruitment, the Child and Family Agency is progressing a number of initiatives to address staff shortages. These include the pilot maternity leave scheme, where temporary staff can be offered a 12 month contract to cover maternity leave. In recognition of the challenging nature of the work, new entrants and graduates have a reduced workload for their first year with opportunities for regular supervision with experienced practitioners. In addition, Tusla works with agencies providing family supports to ensure the agency's social work teams can focus on the children and families in greatest need of their specific skills. The agency is preparing a workforce development plan for completion by the end of the summer and further measures to support staff retention will be considered.

The agency employs 3,452.54 whole-time equivalent staff, which is an increase of 1.2%. The increase in the number of social workers, therefore, has been greater than the overall staff increase. More than 83% of all staff are in the health and social care professional stream, which includes 1,396 social workers, 1,161 social care staff, 176 family support workers and 72 education and welfare officers. I have no reason to believe that any replacement has to be approved by the chief executive officer of the organisation but I will double check that I am not giving the Deputy incorrect information.

Deputy Troy is concerned that the lead-in time for the Children First legislation will be overly long. That will not be the case. At the end of December I wrote to the agency through the Department in my performance statement seeking a business plan for 2015, which is expected later this week. I then have 30 days to respond and the process specifically included at my request a stipulation that Children First be addressed in terms of preparation and planning. We, therefore, do not anticipate there will be the same problem to which the Deputy alluded under another Act.

The Deputy also raised the issue of inspections. I have been at pains to reassure the sector in this regard. I do not want additional red tape and people to be tied up with unnecessary administration. I have spoken to the Minister for Education and Skills about this. There will not be a duplication of skills. The inspectors of the Department of Education and Skills will focus on education and learning in the preschool year, which is not part of the current regulations. Tusla and the Department's inspectorate will work together to make sure the process works well and in collaboration. It is the intention that the inspectors will be semi-contemporaneous in order that there will not be loads of different inspections with different personnel visiting schools. I understand that the Department will consult the sector and will provide information between February and June.

The Deputy specifically mentioned the concern around the risk to the child. These are the experts at assessing risk and I made inquiries regarding all those tragic scenarios that pertained last year to ascertain whether social workers had been allocated and each case had one. I am sorry that tragic scenarios will continue to occur because that is the reality of life. It is not possible to prevent them, any more than we can prevent all instances of illness and unfortunate outcomes. The open high priority cases are a mixture of cases where the initial referral determines a child protection concern and they need further assessment. Those who are further along the process of assessment where the early work was done by a duty social worker now need an allocated social worker.

They also include children in care where a social worker has left or been moved. This is a difficulty. I have spoken to children's groups about this and they mention this in terms of what they do not like about care. They do not like moving place and having their social worker changed. However, as we all know, staff move around and there is very little we can do about that. People make career choices. The agency is very exercised about trying to maintain continuity of care for young people. It is very important.

There are cases awaiting allocation to an assigned social worker, and these are reviewed regularly by the responsible team leader and principal social worker pending allocation. They are managed through a duty system which will respond, as appropriate, within the available resources. Some long-term child protection teams will operate this system, where cases transfer from duty and there is not the capacity to allocate immediately due to existing caseload levels or staff vacancies. Each area has internal protocols for managing these cases, with team leaders holding responsibility for cases until they are allocated.

We have been informed separately that managing cases on duty involves telephone calls to referrers or teachers who see the child regularly to check on the situation. In some cases the duty social work team, which changes periodically, will call directly to the child or family to determine the current situation.

Cases which are high priority are defined as follows: initial assessment of child protection concern; further assessment of child protection concern; awaiting child protection case conference; a child subject to a child protection plan or a child subject to court proceedings; a child in care with non-approved carers; a child in care less than six months; a child in care in an unstable placement; and a child at high risk due to mental health or anti-social problems. The majority of the cases in this category are awaiting further assessment of a child protection concern. This is a dynamic process. Cases are not left without any further assessment taking place or without anybody watching over the situation. None the less, we are challenged in terms of trying to attract new social workers. The issues of recruitment and the time it takes to recruit staff were mentioned, which we need to address.

The school completion programme was mentioned. It is an area of considerable importance and one which can bring children back into mainstream education. We are determined to see it protected. As with any service, there are areas where things can be improved and we can get more value for money. The ESRI is compiling a report on this and comes with a clean pair of hands. We will await the outcome of its findings and consider them in detail. I have already covered ECCE inspections.

Deputy Robert Troy

I thank the Minister. On his point on the ESRI review of the school completion programme, is there a date for publication of the review? To be fair, the participants in the scheme are quite anxious, as he knows, in terms of their vulnerability and sustainability into the future. Any organisation that has a review hanging over its head always thinks of the worst outcomes. It is important that we know when the ESRI will provide feedback to the Minister and how long it will take for him to mull over the review and bring clarity to the issue.

In regard to educational outcomes, the Minister mentioned the new inspectors. It is a duplication of work. If it was the only thing the new inspectors were required to do, why not put a new section in the regulations and ensure that existing inspectors carry out the work?

I go back to the point I have continuously raised about the people who currently carry out inspections in early childhood settings. As there is a requirement that public health nurses are involved, why, as promised by a predecessor of the Minister, would the Department not consider opening up the process to allow for applications from people with relevant early childhood care and education experience for inspector roles? Those roles have been advertised and filled, but unfortunately the process has been restricted to public health nurses. A change would help to target the problem.

I know, but it is not in some cases.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I refer to the provision of social workers, on which Tusla is critically dependent in the carrying out of its function, and the allocation for 2015. In real terms, leaving the capital allocation aside, there is a 4.8% increase, but that is not enough.

On departures, of the 1,396 whole-time equivalent social work positions, leaving aside the 164 recruited during the course of the year - because Tusla has been in existence for only a year - some 1,232 are still in place. The 112 who left represent about 9%. It is a very high figure and one can make all sorts of international comparisons, but at the end of the day it is a very high departure rate. Deputy Troy made the point that only 20 were retirees. The other 92 left for other reasons, including burnout. I understand that; it is a very difficult job.

I refer to my question on the 219 posts which are at various stages of recruitment.

I understand if the Minister does not have the information with him. I was asking how soon any of these posts - preferably all of them - will be filled, adding to the number that are currently in service. That is the crucial thing. I am less concerned about whether he can answer in detail today, but I am anxious to try to impress on him and his colleagues that there is a huge job to be done in pressing for an increased allocation for his Department in order to properly address these issues.

I accept the point made by the Minister that we will not be able to avoid all of the tragic outcomes that have taken place. I accept that, but please, let us not have a situation in which it is at all arguable, by whomever would want to take that course, that such a tragedy was caused by a failure of the system to respond. That is what it comes down to. In my view, we have got to be able to respond in all cases where at all possible. My only concern is that we have sufficient properly trained social workers and a Child and Family Agency that is properly provided and resourced to carry out its function, so that we can minimise, if not eliminate, these terrible, tragic situations that create such anguish, pain and great upset across the whole community.

Deputy James Reilly

In regard to Deputy Troy's question on the ESRI report, I am not in a position to tell him precisely when that will be. When the ESRI is finished its work - I do not have an indication when that will be - we will take a number of weeks to examine the report. It would be unwise to do otherwise. I fully accept the Deputy's point that those involved in the school completion programme will be anxious until that process is finished, which is understandable.

In regard to the issue of inspectors, public health nurses are trained and have experience of child development, so they are suited to work in areas of inspection. Around a quarter of the existing inspectors are from other professions. Recent recruitments of principal inspectors were open to a wide range of professions. The issue of recruiting others at the basic grade will be considered by Tusla and the Department. It is an area that we need to examine, because public health nurses are also in short supply. If we could take them off this work then they could get back to their other work. It would be to everyone's advantage if we could train inspectors, in a different way, to look after this work. However, inspectors that come from the Department of Education and Skills look at a different element - the education element.

In regard to the issue raised about social workers, I will repeat that the turnover rate for social workers is 6.7%, which is lower than many of the equivalent figures internationally. It is lower than that of the UK, much lower than that of the USA and lower again than that of Western Australia. Social work is challenging. It is a tribute to social workers here that the staff turnover is much lower than among our international comparators. It is not true to say there is no career development, because there is; they can progress to senior social work, etc.

I wish to make a general point about Tusla. At what point is one ever able to say that one could not do with more money and more things? We have done particularly well in 2015, given the fact that we have come through six years of a very severe economic contraction, which is putting it mildly. I shall not turn this into a political football. We have managed to protect a lot of the funding in the area of youth and children, plus the ECCE programme, through the worst years of recession that this country has endured. We have to keep our minds open in this matter and we will seek to improve.

I wish to state two things. First, we would like to get more funding for more initiatives. Second, there is a huge duty on all of us here to ensure that taxpayers get value for money and that the things we are doing achieve the outcomes we seek. That is one of the things I am very strong on. There is continuous evaluation of the programmes we have in place to ensure they deliver on what we want, which is better outcomes for children, and are not just there to make us feel good or because we feel it is the right thing to do. I do not have much more to say on this.

Chairman

Is it agreed to move on from subhead A3? Agreed. The next subhead is A4, which deals with youth justice and child detention schools.

Deputy Robert Troy

I want to acknowledge the Government's commitment to the construction of the centre at Oberstown. It is a welcome development. When the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, secured the funding for it, I acknowledged that fact. It is only right and proper that when something is being done correctly it is acknowledged, and I have no problem in doing so.

Sometimes there is a difference in the words used. With regard to the phrase "formally handed over", sometimes a project is handed over to the operators when the facility is not yet in operation. Is Oberstown in operation at the moment? Is the building being used to house detainees? If not, when will it do so? Is the Minister confident that sufficient funding has been put by? There has been a reduction in the capital spend, which I accept, and there has been an increase of 11% in current expenditure. Will the increase be sufficient to ensure the facility is adequately resourced and staffed? We know of situations in which people have children and teenagers with psychological issues but, unfortunately, because certain areas are inadequately staffed, these young people have had to be placed in adult facilities. That is something we cannot see happen again.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will approach the same issue in a slightly different way and ask the Minister the following questions. Do we still have pre-adult detainees in St. Patrick's Institution at Mountjoy Prison? How soon does he expect that to end?

Chairman

Does Deputy Catherine Byrne wish to comment?

We will first discuss subhead B3, the general child care programme.

Deputy Robert Troy

I presume the slight reduction in the allocation for current expenditure is due to the decline in the number of children participating in the child care programme.

Chairman

That is correct.

Deputy Robert Troy

Given the level of additional requirements being imposed on preschool education providers, for example, new inspections and regulations, and the reduction in the number of service users, would this not be an appropriate time to restore the previous level of capitation? Some preschool services have been put to the pin of their collar and may not survive. A rally on this issue will take place in mid-February. Will the Minister restore the capitation rate in place three years ago?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will address the same point. The allocation for 2015 has been reduced by €2.6 million and the Minister indicated that 68,000 children will benefit from the scheme this year. Some people make a substantial case for the introduction of a second free preschool year, while another strong lobby argues instead for having the highest possible standards apply across the board in the existing service. Time and again, when lobbied on this issue, I am told there is a significant variation in the standards that apply. The highest standards must be attained but this will not be achieved while the Minister holds the capitation payment at the reduced level that has applied in recent years. The €2.6 million saving in the current year could have been employed to help bring the level of supports and provision to the highest attainable standards. It is my understanding that this is what many service providers and parents would appreciate.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

The free preschool year is one of the best programmes ever introduced in this sector. It provides excellent opportunities to parents of young children who are trying to survive on a budget. I visit many preschool facilities and have listened to many parents speak on the issue. While it is clear that the services are brilliant, service providers appear to be losing out financially on the preschool year and are experiencing serious difficulties as a result.

The Revised Estimate notes that services may charge parents for additional services provided, including additional hours and activities. Many parents tell me that the preschool year now costs more than previously because the services are introducing fees for additional services. No one wants to tell a child he or she cannot participate in certain activities as the child could be left in a corner while the activity takes place. I am relaying to the Minister concerns parents have raised with me.

The issue is one of funding. Service providers argue that the funding available limits their ability to provide the programmes they wish to offer. When they introduce additional activities, the costs must be met from parents' pockets. Parents do not want to tell their children they cannot participate in a grow and stretch programme. I agree with Deputies Troy and Ó Caoláin that the matter must be reviewed. I also agree with Deputy Ó Caoláin's point that while a second preschool year would be very welcome, we should first ensure the current free year is done right. Young parents cannot afford to dig deep.

Deputy James Reilly

To respond to the first concern expressed by Deputies, the small reduction in the funding available reflects the smaller number of children who are using the service. This is the result of a small decline in the population.

On a more general point, Pobal estimates that 24,000 people are employed in the child care sector. It is important to remember that these services are provided by private, commercial and community child care services and the level of remuneration provided to child care workers and their conditions of employment are matters for the management of the relevant services.

I am keeping a record of who spoke. We will now deal with subhead B5.

Deputy Robert Troy

This initiative was rolled out at the time to address a change in the eligibility for the one-parent family allowance. I refer to a reply to a parliamentary question I asked last June. The scheme was originally formed with 6,000 places and an allocation of €10 million. In June 2014, after its first year in operation, 154 places had been availed of. It is clear that the scheme is not working. How many places are being utilised now? If such a small percentage of places were taken up originally, how was the balance of the money spent? Why is a significant sum of money being allocated to the scheme this year if it is not being utilised and availed of to the extent originally anticipated?

Deputy James Reilly

As the Deputy has pointed out, the scheme was piloted from April 2013 but the take-up was extremely low. As a result, the number of places under the scheme was reduced to 500 in 2014, from the original figure of 6,000. The funding allocation in 2014 was €2.205 million and this has been reduced to €1.323 million because of the decrease in the number of places from 500 to 300. The number of places actually available is likely to be higher than this, as some parents will not require a pick-up service and some may require child care places for fewer than five days per week.

The community employment child care programme is administered by this Department on behalf of the Department of Social Protection. When it was realised that the take-up on the after-school scheme was low, discussions with the Department of Social Protection led to the creation of a scheme targeted specifically at Department of Social Protection clients participating in the community employment schemes operated by that Department. The programmes provide part-time care for children up to the age of five and from July 2014, after-school care for primary school children up to the age of 13, of persons participating in community employment schemes. A total of 1,200 preschool and 800 after-school places are available on this programme. The Department of Social Protection determines eligibility for the child care places. It is a popular scheme and the take-up is good. The cost of the programme in 2014 amounted to €6.72 million and this is being maintained in 2015. In addition, administration costs associated with the programme are expected to be approximately €320,000.

Deputy Robert Troy

The balance of the money which was not utilised for the after-school programme went into the establishment of this programme.

Deputy James Reilly

Yes.

Chairman

We will now deal with subhead B6 or subhead B7. Is Deputy Ó Caoláin indicating he wishes to speak on subhead B6 or subhead B7?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On the question of youth organisations and services, I put a question to the Minister at the outset when I was attempting to establish the factual position with regard to the grants to organisations part-funded by the national lottery. The Minister indicated that €910,000 had been moved on to Tusla and the Child and Family Agency, if I remember correctly from his earlier reply.

Deputy James Reilly

To be technically correct, we handed that money back to the Exchequer because the national lottery does not directly give us money; it gives money to the Exchequer which in turn hands it to us. We hand it back to the Exchequer when we do not take it. We got a reasonably good deal, in so far as for that €900,000 plus we got €26 million extra for the agency.

That is not an Estimates matter per se.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I apologise, as I must leave shortly to be somewhere else.

It is welcome that the funding is being maintained at the current level, but I agree with Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. I work on the ground locally and know the benefits of working with young people, particularly children in poorer areas. Without some of the community organisations, the volunteers in particular, many children would slip into a wider space from which they would not be able to be taken out. I acknowledge that the Minister cannot make any commitment in respect of the 2015 budget, but I ask that allocations be increased in this sector because of the great work being done on the ground by many organisations but particularly the volunteers who are not paid and who volunteer week in, week out. Without them, many communities would not be able to survive.

Deputy James Reilly

I echo the Deputy's comments, but I would go further by saying we could not deliver as a Government in the way we do without the phenomenal volunteers in this sector. Again, I thank them for their work.

On Deputy Robert Troy's point, I can confirm that the education and training boards, formerly the VECs, do disburse the funds. On the question of when they will know their budgets, they know already. They were told in December that their budgets were set.

Chairman

We shall proceed to subhead B7.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to refer to the area-based childhood programme. The Minister referred during the last exchange to grants to organisations that were partly funded. The grants covered a single year. The area-based childhood programme covers four years, from 2013 to 2016, inclusive. We know that Atlantic Philanthropies is closing down its support structures next year. While I acknowledge that there is an increase this year which I hope will be maintained into 2016, we must think ahead. I understand there are 13 dependent sites benefiting. Will the Minister indicate whether he and his Department are looking beyond 2016 in this area? One should make no mistake that all of the funds are focused on children and families in disadvantaged circumstances. How do we fill the vacuum that will be created by the departure of Atlantic Philanthropies' support after 2016 and perhaps with the cessation of the programme at the time? Is the Minister giving any consideration to this issue?

Deputy James Reilly

The Deputy is correct that there are 13 programmes and that they are co-funded by the Department and Atlantic Philanthropies. Much has been learned in this regard. The total amount of committed funding available in the period 2013 to 2016, inclusive, will be €29.7 million. As I stated, there are 13 sites involved in the area-based childhood programme and ten are now operationalising innovative programmes in their respective areas. The other three are expected to be operational early in 2015 as certain local issues have required increased engagement with Pobal prior to the finalisation of contracts.

Ongoing implementation and governance support is being provided by the Centre for Effective Services and Pobal for the area-based childhood services throughout the life cycle of the programme. Through providing this support, high fidelity and sustainable implementation of evidence informed services will be optimised. It is the intention of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to seek to mainstream the learning under the area-based childhood programme. The Department is in the process of considering how best this learning can be disseminated and replicated in mainstream services after 2016.

Chairman

Are there comments on subhead B8?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We all have had exposure to the various initiatives supported under the dormant accounts funding provision. I acknowledge the great work being done in this regard, not least the Big Brother Big Sister initiative, in which I know people who are directly involved. It is a fine initiative. I am not singling it out but referring to it because I am knowledgeable about it and because it operates in my area. I acknowledge each of the initiatives.

Chairman

Are there comments on subheads C3, C4 or C5?

Deputy Robert Troy

On subhead C5, I note that there is a reduction of 25% in the allocation. I would have imagined that it was under this subhead we would have been dealing with the allocation of funding for the early years strategy, a strategy which the Government promised a number of years ago would deal comprehensively with our vision for the development of this crucial sector. What is the position on the strategy and when will it be published? Will the cross-departmental group about which the Minister spoke regarding the affordability of child care feed into the strategy?

I am glad the Deputy has raised this because this group is looking at more than just affordability and accessibility. It is looking at future investment in child care and the early years are but one section of child care years. We have zero to six, six to 12 and 12 to 18. People often forget about the 12 to 18 year olds and the latchkey kids, as they are called. Many parents are very uncomfortable about the fact their children are under no supervision between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. and would like to see some way of having this addressed. It is part of this work.

I do not mind what way one feeds into the other as they will both inform each other. I will not stand up and jump about it, but to me it makes more sense that the early years group would feed into the interdepartmental group. They will both inform each other. In my view one cannot operate in silos. It is a terrible mistake we made in the past in other areas of the public services we deliver. We need to ensure we have a seamless coherent service for children as they pass through various stages of development. We all know the transition phase for children is the most difficult time, going from little school to big school and from school to university. These are very difficult and challenging times for younger people. The idea is to have an overarching policy that looks at how we invest in our child care through different age groupings, and how to get the best outcomes for the children. We need to look at how we spend money now, as it is not always about vast volumes of new money but better bang for the buck we spend at present, and we need to assure and reassure ourselves, through continual evaluation, that we are getting the results we want for our children, which are better outcomes for them.

Chairman

We will now move onto C6.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I note the 11.2% increase to €191,000 on the 2014 provision. Will the Minister indicate exactly what was the case for the additional money for the Adoption Authority of Ireland, AAI? There has not been a significant increase in adoptions per se. In fact the throughput has been very slow. The committee had a particular focus on matters relating to the Adoption Authority of Ireland regarding overseas adoptions 12 months ago and before. I am anxious to know how the AAI will employ this additional money. What is expected of it? Is there an increase in staff? It is not about proposers of adoption, it is about children in the first instance, be they here in Ireland or overseas. I echo the concerns of some that some young children have missed out on opportunities for adoption here in Ireland in recent years, and that certainly concerns me.

Deputy James Reilly

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I referred to this programme at the outset. Again, I wish the commission of investigation a fair wind in the big and important undertaking that lies ahead of it. I commend to it not only the letter but the spirit of the contributions of Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas over the course of the debate on the resolution presented by Government on its establishment and terms of reference.

Chairman

During my Second Stage speech on the Bill I appealed to the Minister to ensure ease of access for the women concerned to the process. Since the passage of the Bill last week, I have received a couple of e-mails from people in my constituency requesting that I impress upon the Minister and the commission the need for extensive advertising of how women who wish to participate in the investigation can do so and that the process be as easy as possible for them.

We now move on to subhead D, which deals with subheads under appropriations-in-aid. Are there any questions arising?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. However, I would like to take this opportunity to wish Mary McLaughlin every blessing, health and happiness on her upcoming retirement. I think today's meeting has been one of easiest for her in recent times. I do not believe she was over-stretched in that regard. I thank her for her service, advice and support to the committee in its work. On behalf of us all, I wish her the very best.

Deputy Robert Troy

I would like to be associated with those remarks.

Chairman

I, too, thank Ms McLaughlin for her courtesy and assistance to all members of the committee. She has been a pleasure to work with and a great source of information to the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and his predecessor, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. I thank her most sincerely and wish her every success in whatever she intends to do on her retirement.

Deputy James Reilly

I, too, wish Ms McLaughlin well and thank her for all her help and work during the short time I have been Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. In regard to Deputy Ó Caoláin's remark that she was not over-stretched today, I do not believe she is over-stretched in that she is more than capable of dealing with all that comes her way.

I also thank the committee for its time and courtesy today. I look forward to working with it during the next 12 months to ensure we get the best we can out of the services in place for the children of our country.

Chairman

That concludes our consideration of the Revised Estimate. I thank Deputies Troy and Ó Caoláin, the Minister, Deputy Reilly, Mr. Lynch, Mr. Ryan, Ms McLaughlin and all the staff for their assistance in dealing with the Revised Estimate. I also thank the committee secretariat for its work in this matter.

Select Sub-Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate - Tuesday, 3 Feb 2015

Vote 40 - Children and Youth Affairs (Revised)

Select Sub-Committee on Children and Youth Affairs debate -
Tuesday, 3 Feb 2015