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Select Sub-Committee on Health debate -
Tuesday, 9 Dec 2014

Vote 39 - Health Service Executive (Supplementary)

I remind members, delegates and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting of the proceedings. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I welcome the Minister for Health and his team of officials, Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, Department of Health; Ms Fiona Prendergast, principal officer, Department of Health; and Mr. Stephen Mulvany, chief financial officer, Health Service Executive. I remind committee members that as this is a Supplementary Estimate, the sub-committee will not be dealing with the whole Estimate. The Supplementary Estimate is for Vote 39 - Health Service Executive. There is a supplementary performance and information report on the impacts and outputs of programme expenditure. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

I thank the Chairman and apologise for being late, but I was delayed at a Cabinet meeting. The Cabinet is still meeting to discuss other items, among them the Estimates and the Appropriation Bill for next year.

Before I address the Supplementary Estimate, I will briefly outline the funding position for 2015. Since my appointment as Minister for Health, I have said on more than one occasion that my first priority is to achieve a realistic budget for the health service. I believe we have achieved this in budget 2015, with an increase in the Exchequer allocation of €305 million when compared to the allocation for 2014. We have also identified one-off increased projected revenues of some €330 million and savings and efficiencies of at least €130 million. Taken together, this means that the HSE will have over €750 million more to fund services in 2015 compared to over €300 million less in 2014 versus the allocation for the previous year. This is a significant turnaround.

The total additional funding being sought for the HSE for 2014 is €680 million. However, I intend to allocate savings of €4 million, expected in the Department of Health’s Vote, to meet the HSE's requirements, giving a net cost to the Exchequer of €676 million. While this is a significant amount, it should be viewed in the context of the challenging environment in which health services have operated this year and for several years. Increasing demand owing to demographic pressures, a growing and ageing population, the absolute need to prioritise patient safety, as well as demanding targets for savings and service delivery, has meant that the challenges facing the health service in 2014 were significant from the outset. The service has faced unprecedented challenges for several years as a direct consequence of the great recession. I am pleased that I was able to achieve an increase in the total financial resources available to the health service in 2015, the first increase in funding since 2008.

Daily demands on the health service are enormous and growing. Drivers of demand and cost include our rising and ageing population and the increase in chronic conditions. Advances in medical technology come at a high price. Our progress in the diagnosis of and screening for cancers and chronic diseases means that more people require treatment. Health services around the world are struggling with rising costs and Ireland is no exception. We must recognise the additional resource demands that arise as a result of these new pressures.

In 2015 we will have more control of resources in the health service, with the HSE continuing to develop and strengthen its accountability framework. The management of health spending within available resources next year will require an exceptional management focus, with strict adherence by all services and budget holders to their allocations. At my request, the 2015 service plan reflects a new and enhanced accountability framework which makes explicit the responsibilities of all managers to deliver on the targets set out in the service plan. A balanced score card will be in place against which managers will have their performance managed across the areas of access to services, the safety of these services, finance and the workforce. The new accountability framework describes in detail the means by which the HSE, in particular hospital groups and community health care organisations, will be held to account in 2015.

A key feature of the new accountability framework will be the introduction of formal performance agreements. These agreements will operate at lower levels to underpin and reflect the legislative framework, including the service plan, between the Minister and the HSE directorate. A feature of the accountability framework will be explicit arrangements for escalating actions to address areas of underperformance.

A new service arrangement and grant aid agreement will be put in place for 2015 and will continue to be the principal accountability agreement between the HSE and section 38 and 39 funded agencies.

As I indicated, we have achieved a more realistic budget for 2015. I will insist that, in return, those who hold budget responsibility must plan and deliver services within the resources available. This challenge has been taken up in the 2015 service plan and I welcome the very strong commitment from the director general and his management team to deliver services in line with the resources set out in the national service plan.

The Health Service Executive (Financial Matters) Act 2014 provides for the HSE to be funded through the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Health from January 2015. The return of the Vote will be realised in the context of the 2015 Revised Estimates. This reform requires the establishment and implementation of a new statutory financial governance framework to govern the funding of the HSE and ensure proper controls are in place on expenditure.

I will set out the items which make up this year's Supplementary Estimate, the first of which are the costs associated with increased service provision. Several factors have contributed to the total expenditure overrun of €510 million for service provision, primarily expenditure on acute hospital services, arising from factors such as the growth in emergency admissions, the treatment of more elderly and complex patients and an increase in bed days delivered.

Hospitals are projected to be almost €270 million in deficit by the end of the year. This is the biggest single element of the €510 million deficit. Last year's hospital deficit was €180 million and it was only possible to deal with €100 million of this in setting the budgets for 2014, leaving an ongoing underlying incoming problem of approximately €80 million in 2014. Hospital costs have grown by approximately €72 million in 2014; hospital workload has also grown, with the numbers of bed days and day cases up by 3%, emergency admissions up by 3% and very elderly patients, that is, those aged over 85 years, up by 4.5%. These overruns relate in the main to pay and salaries of front-line and clinical staff, medicines, equipment and devices for hospitals.

There is a projected deficit of some €95 million in the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS. This comprises a deficit of €50 million on schemes administered centrally, including the general medical service payments scheme and the long-term illness scheme, and a deficit of €45 million on locally administered schemes. Local schemes are demand driven and the growth year on year represents growth in key areas such as hepatitis C and HIV drugs administered in a hospital setting and aids and appliances to assist elderly and other individuals to stay at home longer or to enable their discharge from hospital.

In finalising the Revised Estimates Volume and national service plan for 2014 a number of variables, including the unspecified pay savings and decision by the Government to amend the probity target for medical cards, resulted in the amount provided in the subhead for the PCRS being understated by approximately €70 million.

Therefore, while the overrun on PCRS is €95 million, the adjustment required in subhead C1 is €165 million, but this is purely a technical issue. Pension costs, including lump sums, will have a deficit in the region of €30 million. The scale and number of retirements in any financial period is difficult to predict with certainty, and in line with some other Departments with large numbers of staff, additional funding is required to meet the pension entitlements of those retiring. Expenditure on social care services arising from the demand for a range of community supports and services gives rise to a net requirement of €40 million additional funding. This includes, for example, home helps, home care packages, disability services and nursing homes.

Payments are made by the HSE to the State Claims Agency for clinical indemnity, public liability and other awards and settlements. An additional requirement of €54 million is estimated. The estimated cost of the clinical indemnity scheme in 2014 was €98 million. That estimate was based on the reasonable assumption that the High Court, as had been its practice since 2010, would continue to rule settlements for catastrophic injuries on a periodic payment order basis, in anticipation of proposed legislation. However, in the absence of this legislation, the High Court, in a number of catastrophic birth injury cases, did not make settlements on a periodic payment basis and converted previous settlements back to traditional lump sum settlements. This has resulted in an additional €52 million being required in 2014. Legislation on the introduction of periodic payment orders is being drafted by the Department of Justice and Equality. I am informed this legislation will be progressed in early 2015.

In addition to this legislation, health service providers are working to minimise risk and to support an open, timely and consistent approach to communicating with service users and their families when things go wrong in health care. This is called open disclosure. The HSE has developed, in conjunction with the State Claims Agency, a national policy and national guidelines on open disclosure, with supporting documents that include a patient information leaflet, a staff support booklet and a staff briefing guide. The HSE and the State Claims Agency launched these documents in November 2013.

The timing of income collection and working capital requirements associated with prior years results in a further €108 million cash requirement in 2014. During the course of 2014, the potential to achieve significantly accelerated payments from health insurers has been pursued, and this is now likely to take place in 2015. In addition, while the UK receipts are short by €9 million in 2014, an increase from this source is expected in 2015. There are accumulated prior year deficits in the voluntary sector which, although they have no effect on the 2014 income and expenditure position, have an impact on overall cash requirements to the extent that they cannot be fully managed through working capital.

The Supplementary Estimate also seeks an additional €5 million for the early access programme that has been put in place for patients with hepatitis C who require immediate access to new direct-acting antiviral drugs. In layman’s terms, these are oral medicines that eliminate hepatitis C in 90% of patients treated. The early access programme will apply to a group of patients identified by medical specialists in hepatology. Currently, it is expected that 108 patients will be approved for inclusion in the early access programme. It is being implemented now and the HSE is communicating directly with the relevant hospitals and clinicians about reimbursement arrangements. Some €30 million has been provided in 2015 for these new medicines, and the funding sought in the Supplementary Estimate will allow us to prioritise the most urgent cases this year. In fact, the first patients were treated last week. A number of powerful new direct-acting antiviral therapies are being licensed in Europe for people with hepatitis C. As with other countries, Ireland must ensure that access to high-quality treatments such as these is managed in order to prioritise access for patients who can benefit most, while ensuring that the financing model is sustainable and affordable. The aim is to provide access for as many patients as possible as soon as possible.

There has been a continuing upward trend in delayed discharges since the beginning of the year, with approximately 850 delayed discharges reported nationally - the equivalent of a large hospital. There are people, mainly elderly, who have been medically discharged but remain in hospital while they wait placement in a nursing home, or appropriate supports to get home. Clearly this is having a knock-on effect on both hospital emergency department overcrowding and levels of elective admissions, and, by extension, waiting lists. In response to these concerns, the 2015 service plan includes an additional €25 million to help address this.

It includes €10 million to support an additional 300 long-stay care places under the nursing home support-fair deal scheme, which will reduce waiting times under this scheme to 11 weeks. Some €8 million is being provided for 115 short-stay beds, including the opening in the Spring of Mount Carmel as a community hospital for Dublin. An additional €5 million is being provided to support an additional 400 home care packages and €2 million is being provided for expansion of the community intervention teams to deal with 2,000 referrals each year. This involves reducing the need to admit patients to hospital from nursing homes and enabling them to get home sooner by sending nurses to their homes to administer intravenous medicines and carry out check-ups, etc.

Addressing delayed discharges is not a matter that can wait until the new year given, as I speak, the level of overcrowding in our emergency departments. For this reason, I am seeking an additional €3 million for the early commencement of this initiative from December 2014. With the approval of the sub-committee and a little luck we will start to see pressures ease as early as next week.

Given the extent of changes faced by our health services in 2014 the additional funding being requested through this Supplementary Estimate is necessary. Our health service has been through a challenging year. My intention in bringing this Supplementary Estimate is to eliminate the incoming deficit for the HSE as it faces into 2015. This combined with the 2015 budget provision will provide us with a realistic basis on which to deliver existing levels of service next year and to introduce enhancements in some priority areas.

I seek the sub-committee's approval for this Supplementary Estimate for Vote 39.

In the absence of a Fianna Fáil representative, I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

I was somewhat surprised at the level of Supplementary Estimate being sought as announced towards the end of last week in that it is only €680 million rather than the amount speculated. I have no issue in agreeing to the Supplementary Estimate but I do have some specific questions for the Minister.

First, the Minister in his concluding remarks accepted that this Supplementary Estimate will enable the HSE to go forward into 2015 without the baggage of significant so-called overspend in 2014. He also referred in his contribution to the passage earlier this year of legislation under the stewardship of his predecessor which provides that so-called overruns or overspends in 2015 by each of the component parts of the health service will be carried forward to 2016. While this is laudable and acceptable in the context of what is proposed today, given the great difficulty of properly projecting footfall, throughput, usage, patient presentation, etc., how realistic is it to categorically state that there will be no Supplementary Estimate required in 2015 and that the overspends will become the first charge on the new provision for the subsequent year?

I would like to address a number of other points made in the Minister's presentation. In regard to the service arrangements and grant aid agreement for the coming year vis-à-vis the HSE and section 38 and 39 funded agencies, perhaps the Minister will expand on the status of the service arrangements and grant aid agreement, including whether they have been finalised and are already in place.

What is the position vis-à-vis the sections 38 and 39 funded agencies? It is an issue the sub-committee has not had a substantive opportunity to address in a timely way. It was taken from us by another committee of this institution. In the next paragraph a very strong assertion is made vis-à-vis the very first point I raised where it states: "I will be insisting that in return those who hold budget responsibility must plan and deliver services within the resources available."

The hospital element is projected to be €270 million of the total by the end of this month and is the largest single element of the projected deficit of €510 million. The percentage increases which have already been recorded in 2014 could not have been so accurately envisaged 12 months ago. The numbers of bed days and day cases have increased by 3%, emergency admissions by 3% and elderly patients aged over 85 years by 4.5%. What certainty can the delegation have that we will not see a repetition in the course of the year, given the current demographics, an increasingly ageing population, greater demands and the fact that people are living longer and presenting with a variety of challenges in terms of their health needs? Will the delegation accept that significant overspends in 2015 and 2016 will not only have a crippling effect on the budgets of these hospital sites but will also have a serious impact on the quality of services and the general morale of those involved in management and front-line provision and that holding to this template will ultimately have a significant negative impact on the quality of the service being provided?

State Claims Agency payments have increased by €54 million on what was projected. I note the explanation for this. Will the delegation advise us as to at what point is the preparation of the legislation on periodic payment orders? It was indicated that it would be progressed in early 2015. To what does this translate? When does the delegation expect to see publication of the legislation? Does it expect it to be enacted in 2015?

On the additional €5 million for antiviral drugs for people with hepatitis C, it is very important that we provide for the advances made in medicine which can have a very positive impact on the lives of individual sufferers across a range of areas. We should respond to, accept and warmly adopt these advances in the interests of our fellow citizens. Will the delegation indicate where it stands on the drug Fampyra for sufferers of multiple sclerosis? I make the case that after the trial involving some 1,500 MS sufferers, there is undoubtedly a sustained case to provide for access to this very important drug that clearly makes a difference for a significant number of them.

I acknowledge that the drug is not effective for all who suffer the challenges imposed by multiple sclerosis.

If I could just conclude with this point, money follows the patient. We have an increasing and aging population and I have never opposed a Supplementary Estimate for health services. I believe that health services must be demand-led and we must be prepared and willing to respond. In this spirit, I conclude by saying that the signalled intent of the legislation I opposed and referred to earlier will spell dark and difficult days for our health service after 2015 if it is not revisited in the intervening period. I appeal to the Minister to use his position to re-evaluate this issue. I do not believe in wastefulness, inefficiency and unconditional bail-outs but, when it comes to quality support and care for people, I believe we must be able to respond appropriately. I will support the Minister's request for an additional €680 million.

I will not delay the meeting unduly but I want to say that I will certainly support the Supplementary Estimate. The figure of €680 million is significant and there is an overrun of €510 million in the HSE but we in this committee predicted as much last year. To some extent it is a case of here we go again. Many of us feel we were almost ridiculed when we raised issues that the Minister now highlights and it is no surprise to us that a Supplementary Estimate of this magnitude is before us today in December 2014.

I hope the Minister understands that the huge cutbacks in the health service, of around €3.5 billion and 12,000 members of staff in recent years, have put the system under huge pressure. The Irish health service is close to crisis on a daily basis with significant difficulties across the board. I have read the Minister's statement but my own experience tells me that much of this relates to the general hospital system, of which I know a little. In layman's terms, the scenario painted by the Minister in his statement relates closely to the experience at South Tipperary General Hospital, my local hospital. I managed that hospital for 21 years and it is a progressive institution, as it has always been, as there is good co-operation throughout the various categories of staff. Staff members at consultant level are good and everyone puts their shoulders to the wheel but they are all under huge pressure. The picture painted by the Minister is what happens on a daily basis at South Tipperary General Hospital because activity levels have been growing for some years.

The hospital is now to all intents and purposes a type of regional hospital with significant admissions from north Tipperary and parts of counties Waterford, Kilkenny, Cork and Limerick. It is running at approximately 120% capacity on a daily basis. That creates huge pressures, one of which is on the accident and emergency department. In 2013, a total of 3,100 patients had to be placed on trolleys in the department, which was up from 750 in 2011. Delayed discharges are also a problem. The hospital put forward various plans to tackle this, including the provision of additional consultant staff in the accident and emergency department. Thankfully, that has been approved and temporary appointments will be made shortly. However, additional nursing and support staff and beds are also required.

The HSE, locally and regionally, made a recommendation to the Minister to open 12 step down beds in Our Lady's Hospital, Cashel. Nothing has happened in this regard over the past 12 months. I welcome the initiative relating to additional community intervention teams because that was another proposal put forward by hospital management and I hope they will be put in place in south Tipperary.

We have been here previously and we predicted this would happen last year. This is a significant Supplementary Estimate and I will support the Minister but next year's Estimate is unlikely to be much different from this year's. Budgets for general hospitals have overrun by €270 million this year. Next year's allocation will not be adequate either and a further Supplementary Estimate will be required.

It is the first time I have met the Minister at the committee or in the House since his appointment. I congratulate him and wish him well. If he would like to see the picture he has painted in practice, I would invite him to South Tipperary General Hospital because it is a microcosm of what he has outlined-----

It took until 12.47 p.m. to get my first invitation, which is a record.

The Minister would do well to witness what is happening on the ground and he would be welcome. I hope he will take up that invitation.

The Minister will respond as we go through the subheads. I remind members that we will consider-----

Will the Minister not respond?

The Minister normally replies as we go through the subheads. If he wants, he can reply to the opening remarks.

I am happy to reply. I thank Deputy Healy very much for the kind invitation to visit South Tipperary General Hospital. I have a fair idea of what happens on the ground to the extent that is possible in such a wide and varied health service. I spent a good chunk of yesterday in Beaumont Hospital.

Beaumont Hospital is very different from South Tipperary General Hospital

It is, but today is unusual because I have only received one request for a day trip and it is not even lunchtime. There will be at least four before the end of the day. It is important that I spend as much time as possible in the Dáil and Seanad and in my Department. I would love to spend two days a week on day trips and trips overseas but looking at trolleys and overcrowded clinics will not solve any problems. If it did, they would have been solved a long time ago.

The real work is to be done here and in the Department. I shall set aside as much time as I can to travel around the place. Even if I took one day a week it would still take me a year just to visit all the hospitals in the country.

Surely the Minister could visit south Tipperary.

The invitation is noted.

Yes, it is noted.

In response to a few of the questions raised, certainly by Deputy Ó Caoláin, no overspends will be carried into 2015. The HSE will start with a clean slate in 2015. There are some deficits in the voluntary hospitals that they carry forward from year to year but that is a somewhat different matter.

It is acknowledged that the matter is not going to go away and has been worked into the base for next year. The areas above the €510 million figure relate to State claims, the timing of income coming in and so on and were not readily predictable.

Any budget, particularly one this big, has upside and downside risks. On the upside, we might do better in terms of income from health insurers. We might do better in terms of drug savings. The economic recovery may mean that fewer people are dependent on State schemes. Also, with the number of people with private health insurance starting to increase again, we might see the demands increasing by less than they did in previous years.

On the other hand, there are downside risks. Potentially, demand will continue to rise. With an inward migration, a rising population and an aging population we may see demand rise again next year. State claims are very unpredictable. It comes down to when court cases are heard and what awards are made by the courts. Therefore, it is hard to predict how much will arise in State claims.

Have we changed policy about State claims? Deputy Ó Caoláin made a point about State claims, in terms of litigation, taking an inordinate amount of time to reach a settlement and leaving it until the steps of the courthouse. Is there hope of changing the culture of this situation?

On the specific issue of periodic payment orders, the Minister for Justice and Equality is due to publish legislation early next year. I expect it to go through the House next year.

There is the bigger issue. I think tort reform is required in this country. In terms of payments for medical negligence, in many cases these are not cases of medical negligence at all and can be biological events in some cases. Health care, by its very nature, is risky and there will always be a certain level of claims even against good physicians and good surgeons. A lot needs to be done when it comes to tort reform. Our legal costs and awards are very high. I intend to engage directly with the Minister for Justice and Equality on the matter in 2015. However, law reform is slow and I doubt it will produce savings in 2015.

Separately, the HSE is moving very firmly towards a change in culture - in hospitals and health care settings - to one of open disclosure. The evidence is very strong that people are less likely to sue, and are less likely to be awarded big damages, if health care professionals are upfront and honest about what happens when things go wrong. Unfortunately, that has not been the culture across our health service in recent years. We have seen a number of very distressing examples where staff have not been willing to tell patients and their families the truth about what happened. I think if they had done so not only would the outcomes have been better for the families and patients concerned, the cost to the taxpayer would have been lower. That is a big change that can happen without legislative reform.

On the issue of service level agreements for section 38 and section 39 organisations, they are nearing finalisation. The target is to have them ready for the early new year. Thereafter, the target is to have them signed in January or February with the vast bulk of them being signed before the end of quarter 1 of 2015. That means the end of March 2015 is the target.

In terms of financial control, there is a stronger incentive than ever for the HSE and hospitals to stay within budget. In recent years savings had to be delivered in order to reduce the central Government deficit. Now, more and more, savings above a certain level can go back into the health service and into services.

I hope that is an incentive to drive savings more in the future.

If the economy is growing by 3% or 4% a year, we should seek an increase of that amount in the health budget. There is little point in having economic recovery if it does not mean more money in people's pockets and more money to provide better services. The problem we have had so often in the health service is that increases in health spending do not result in better services. We saw this particularly during the boom years when increases in spending went largely towards having more staff and increased pay for staff but not better services. There were improvements in some specialties, but the intractables such as overcrowding in emergency units and waiting lists were the same or even worse at a time when the budget was much higher. There is a major challenge to ensure additional spending benefits patients and service users.

There was a debate on fampridine, which is marketed as Fampyra, in the Seanad a week or two ago. Decisions on what medicines are reimbursed are not made by me. They are not political or ministerial decisions and there are no patient charts on my desk. That is not how it works in my job. A decision is made on objective grounds by the HSE's national drugs committee on the advice of the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics. Fampyra is not being reimbursed in many countries and it is not reimbursed by the NHS because the evidence produced by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE, in the United Kingdom, Dutch researchers and the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics shows that it is not particularly effective as a medicine. It is costly and the evidence suggests it does not work for most patients. In the case of those for whom it does work, it works less well than physical therapy and only marginally better, by a few seconds, than a placebo. That is not a very good evidence base on which to reimburse any medicine.

Having said that, the door is never closed and no medicine is refused absolutely by the HSE which is always open to a manufacturer coming back with a more acceptable cost and new evidence showing that it is effective. This happens from time to time. Alternatively, the manufacturer can come back with risk sharing proposals such as allowing the medicine to be reimbursed in the case of those who do respond to it. Sometimes, a medicine may not be generally effective, but a small cohort of patients may find it to be so. Rather than reimbursing it for many, for whom it does not work, we can make risk sharing arrangements to allow the HSE to reimburse the medicine for the small group for whom it does work. These options are open to the company concerned, but, more and more, the message that should come from this Parliament is that we need to put more pressure on the drug companies and the pharmaceutical industry to come up with fair prices. It is often the case that Ireland is asked to pay more than other jurisdictions for the same medicine. We would do better for patients and taxpayers if we were all united in putting pressure on the industry, not the HSE or the Government to overpay for certain medicines.

We will move to subhead A3 which deals with corporate administrative arrangements. Does the 28% increase relate to retirements, unanticipated expenditure or a combination of both?

It is for lump sum payments as more staff retired than had been anticipated.

We will move to subheads B1 to B4, inclusive. I notice that there is a figure of 5% for the Dublin region compared to 3% for the south and the west. Is there a particular reason for this? Is it related to population or demographics?

I do not know exactly, but it is somewhat different when broken down by hospital group.

Wearing my southern hat, I am just curious. I hope it is not the case that we are being treated unfairly, given that Dublin is supposedly the capital city.

We will deal with grants to other bodies, including voluntary and joint board hospitals, which are dealt with underhead subhead B5.

The next subhead under Other Services is B11.

That relates to payments to the State Claims Agency.

We will move on to the care programme. Subhead C1 relates to primary care reimbursement services and community demand-led schemes. Are there any comments or questions?

I have a question on the primary care reimbursement service and the position in respect of medical cards. I have been addressing some of the fallout of what I regard as a system that is not really running as it should in terms of tight performance. I have further evidence of wholly unacceptable and contradictory emissions coming from the PCRS in respect of a case I recently brought to the attention of senior management in the service. The application was approved, affirmed and confirmed but then there was a problem with the issuance. The case involved an elderly person in a confused state. A letter issued a fortnight later advising that the previous decision to withdraw the card had been upheld upon review. The letter was most upsetting for the individual concerned. Yet the attached assessment of income on which the decision was based showed that the individual qualified for a full medical card and a GP visit card. It was quite bizarre. I have yet to present the matter to the personnel concerned but I will do so. Anyway, these things are happening. I am anything but satisfied that the system is on top of its game, as it must and should be. I say as much because I believe it is appropriate to say so. I will bring the particular case to which I referred to the attention of Mr. Burke.

I hear what Deputy Ó Caoláin is saying. My constituency office hears about similar issues from time to time. Approximately 2 million people have either a medical card or a GP visit card. Hundreds of thousands of applications are processed and reviews are carried out every year. Even in the best system, if 2% or 3% of applications go wrong, this means 4,000 to 6,000 cases are going wrong.

The ten actions announced by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, and I two weeks ago have the potential to improve the situation a good deal, as well as the implementation of the Deloitte/Prospectus report. We can definitely improve the situation and reduce the number of errors and problems such as the problem Deputy Ó Caoláin has outlined. However, it will always be the case that mistakes will be made where an organisation is dealing with so many applications. Certainly, I encourage Deputies to bring these cases to the attention of the HSE and the PCRS in order that they can be rectified.

I wish to make a brief comment. I have no wish to delay the meeting, but anyone who thinks that the PCRS system is now a good system or is giving a good return is simply not living in the real world. Significant problems remain with the medical card system. I do not intend to go through all of them today, but they include situations in which people have applied for discretionary cards on medical grounds.

In many cases those people are waiting for three to five months for a decision from the medical side of the system. That is absolutely unacceptable and I ask the Minister to address it. In addition, there are people who were told earlier this year that they would have their discretionary medical card returned who still have not received those cards, and there is still no system whereby public representatives can speak to somebody with authority in the system. That is a significant problem for anybody dealing with the system. One is speaking to people who are simply agents and who know nothing about the system apart from what is on the screen in front of them.

Deputy Healy is correct. It is very frustrating, annoying and upsetting, particularly for the families and patients who are dealing with the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS. There is an ongoing difficulty there, despite the fact that there are many committed staff who are doing tremendous work. One of the biggest problems is that there is inconsistency among whom one deals with on the telephone. I realise the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, announced a new streamlined process but that process is not helping the families concerned. There is inordinate delay, which is unacceptable. If cancer patients apply for a medical card, in some cases they must wait months to get it. The committee might take that up further with the HSE, rather than just the Minister doing so. This committee and public representatives working on behalf of constituents have found that there is inordinate delay in many cases. Good work is being done and it would be unfair to paint all of the staff in the PCRS in a bad light, but I hope the process will be improved. It has been frustrating for many of us, so one can imagine how it must feel for a patient or a person seeking a medical card.

I appreciate Deputy Healy raising this issue. The committee was of one voice on the last occasion it engaged with the PCRS team in Finglas. That was the key appeal we made. It is not a case of us always being against it. We are here to try to be a practical bridge to a resolution or at least to get an answer, so we can explain to those who see us as a buffer in this situation. We have a role to play. It is a complementary role, not always adversarial. The one thing we do not have is somebody to talk to. It is absolutely bizarre. It was accepted on the day, but it has never been implemented.

The other matter causing angst is the GPs saying they do not have the power of renewal. Has that been clarified?

To take the second point first, a circular is being prepared to be sent to GPs explaining the changes in the system, what is happening and what their powers are. The power to extend the medical card and to reinstate it in certain circumstances has been in place for some time, and it is used. The fact that it has been used in hundreds of cases indicates that some GPs know it exists and have been using it. It is also evident that some may not have known that it existed. Perhaps they did not get the circular or they do not know exactly under what circumstances they can use it, but we are trying to agree a joint circular with the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO, on that and to have it done sooner rather than later.

We had a meeting with the IMO on this issue. The chairman, Dr. Ray Walley, said at the time that the IMO had not received a communication. I know of instances where GPs have made the various adjustments at their terminals in their practices, but Dr. Walley said categorically that they were unable to do it and that there was a miscommunication. The committee wrote to the HSE seeking further clarification, but we did not receive a response. The sooner we get clarification on this, the better.

I thank the Deputy.

Are there any comments or questions on capital services - subhead E, appropriations-in-aid? In that case I thank the Minister and his officials, Mr. Breslin, Ms Prendergast and Mr. Mulvany for attending. I thank also the members of the media for attending. As the Minister will not be here before the holidays I wish him, the Department and the Health Service Executive officials, and all those who work in our health service a very happy and peaceful Christmas and a prosperous and better 2015. I am sure the Minister will be here for our quarterly meeting in February.

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