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Select Sub-Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 2015

Harbours Bill 2015: Committee Stage

I wish to advise that this meeting is being carried live on Virgin Media channel 207, eirVision channel 504 and Sky channel 574. Members are requested to switch off their mobile phones. Apologies have been received from Deputy Helen McEntee and Deputy Tom Fleming who has nominated Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett as his substitute for consideration of this Bill. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The meeting has been convened to consider the Harbours Bill 2015. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the transfer of share holdings in certain port companies to local authorities, the transfer of certain port companies to local authority control, the dissolution of certain port companies, to amend and extend the Harbours Acts 1996 to 2015, to repeal the Harbours Acts 1946 and 1947, to amend the Merchant Shipping Act 1992 and the Fishery Harbour Centres Act 1968 and to provide for connected matters.

I welcome the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, and his officials to the meeting.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2

Amendments Nos. 1, 5 to 13 inclusive, 15 to 19, inclusive, and 26 are related and will be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 6, between lines 15 and 16, to insert the following:

“ “Stakeholder and Community Group” means a group comprising elected representatives of all bona fide harbour user groups as well as resident and community groups across the local authority area;”.

I thank Deputy Fleming for tabling these amendments for me. This series of amendments goes to the heart of all the amendments I have proposed. There are 28 or 30 in total and they relate to who we will listen to when it comes to developing and managing our harbours and what their priorities are. I cannot speak about other harbours and I do not intend to do so. That is up to people from those areas and the various stakeholders in other harbours, such as Drogheda, and that is how it should be. From my experience in Dún Laoghaire, there is a big problem. Since I was elected, I have flagged it extensively with the Minister and his predecessor. People believe the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company is a law unto itself and that they have no real input into what goes on there, what plans are developed and what the priorities of the harbour should be.

That has led to great controversy and great conflict, which we have seen manifest itself in the oral hearing that has been taking place for the past four weeks. The oral hearing has been very polarised. It is not my spin; it is a fact that the two sides in the conflict consist of almost every group representing the community, harbour users and the public pitted against the harbour company. It is not just about this development but it is important to say that the development, which is at the centre of the oral hearing, is part of the master plan that was developed. It is a very extensive plan produced by the harbour company in 2011. It sets out a number of plans for the harbour that include private apartments, a floating barge and swimming pool, and parts of the harbour have been put up for sale recently in connection with the master plan. The public did not ask for that. A total of 130 submissions have been made by groups and individuals. The overwhelming majority of them oppose, root and branch, what the harbour company is doing. In a previous non-statutory, so-called public consultation in 2011 on the development of the plan, almost all of the submissions at the time were to the effect that people did not like the plan or key elements of it. The plan was not changed or amended and the harbour company just charged ahead. That gets to the heart of the problem, namely, to whom are those people accountable.

I also raised serious governance issues to do with what I consider to be excessive executive salaries, bonuses, payments for cars, expenses that should not have been paid out and cases where we are not sure if expenses have been paid back. The list just goes on and on. Huge amounts of money have been wasted on various plans that did not come to fruition, such as the plan for the Carlisle Pier. The list literally goes on.

Even by the harbour company’s own admission, it is in a difficult financial position. It has reached a crunch point in terms of what will happen, following the removal of the Stena Line service. When we are at such a crunch point, the question is who will make the decision. The amendment seeks to include a stakeholder and community group as a key pillar in the decision-making process about what should happen in the harbour now and in the future. It tries to radically shift the balance away from an unaccountable executive in a quango that is at arm’s length from everybody and from any accountability to one where the general public has a say. The public is the biggest stakeholder. There is some reference to sailing clubs, boat clubs and other groups but arguably the biggest stakeholder in any harbour, let alone Dún Laoghaire, is the public. Every year, 1 million people walk the piers. More again look at the harbour vistas and enjoy the views and there are thousands of others, including fishermen, people who sell fish, fix boats, travellers and rowing clubs, who use the harbour but none has any input. The reason the oral hearing has been going on for four weeks is because this is the first time their voice has been heard. This is pretty much the first time ever that all of the stakeholders have been in one room and had their voices heard. What everybody was asking is why they were not listened to years ago. They also questioned whether they would be listened to now.

Notwithstanding the conflict and dispute about the particular cruise berth proposal, the one thing that struck me forcibly, having attended the oral hearing in recent weeks, was why all those people were not in a room five or six years ago. A group was set up in 2009 and it is very telling in terms of the purpose of what I am trying to do. It was called the cruise ship stakeholders group. Who appointed this group? It was appointed by the CEO, Owen Keegan. A letter went to the chamber of commerce and it had a nominee. Subsequently, it became a business improvement district, BID. There was also the CEO of the harbour company. I described this as a cabal and I do not think it is an unreasonable description. The CEO hand-picked somebody from the chamber of commerce, in consultation with the CEO of the harbour board. That is the stakeholder. Those people then went on to spend €1.2 million on various activities in the harbour, much of which was related to the cruise berth plan and the master plan and they were accountable to nobody.

The first time the elected council became fully aware of all of that was in 2013, four years after the stakeholders group was set up. The genuine stakeholders of the community and the public did not get an input until 2015 – six years after the group was set up and after €1.2 million was spent. I do not think that is acceptable. I appeal to the Minister in that regard. I genuinely believe I am representing the vast majority of opinion among the stakeholders and the public in Dún Laoghaire when I say that people want the situation to change radically.

I wish to clarify something the Minister said, so that what I propose is absolutely clear. I am not proposing that we usurp the power of the elected councillors in favour of this group. What I am saying, and what is stated consistently in the amendments, is that wherever there are references to the CEO having the authority, that it should be vested precisely in the elected members who are accountable but that also those elected members will be required to consult with a stakeholders' group. That seems to me to be very reasonable. The decision on the future development, operations, management, priorities and so on of the harbour will be in the hands of elected members but they will be required to consult with a genuine, bona fide community and stakeholders group made up of all the user groups and representatives of the public and residents groups. That seems to be an eminently reasonable proposal and it is also in the interests of sustainable development, planning and management of the harbour and seafront, which I remind the Minister is the most precious asset in the county. It is arguably a national treasure. I appeal to the Minister to take on board what we are saying and to accept this series of amendments in the interests of democratic planning, oversight and management of a precious public amenity for the region and, arguably, for the country.

That would be a matter that could be discussed at council level but to be honest, we pretty much saw who most of the groups were at the An Bord Pleanála hearing. Councils get representative groups and community group, for example, involved in SPCs and they engage with them at various levels. They set criteria as to who they consider bona fide. The detail of that could be worked out at council level.

I will come back to the Deputy’s substantive point in a moment. I am present to have a proper discussion on what Deputy Boyd Barrett has proposed and I treat everything he said as a serious matter.

I acknowledge the Deputy’s long-standing interest in this matter but I put it to him that if he wants me to include the phrase “bona fide” in primary legislation, there must be a definition of what that means. What does the Deputy mean by “bona fide” and does he believe there are groups that are not bona fide?

That is a good point. My reference to "bona fide" was partially in anticipation that the Minister might say that any person could call himself of herself a stakeholder.

I put it in in an attempt to smooth the way for the Minister’s agreement. It is a tactical amendment.

It may have been counter-productive.

Fine, but we are midway through the Bill’s passage through the Oireachtas. If the Minister asked me to take out the words "bona fides" to make him happy and then hammer out the finer detail of who would be the genuine stakeholders at council level, I would be very happy. The key point is that stakeholders declared their hand at the hearing. We could draw up the list quickly now.

Is that not a matter for the local authority to determine? I said to the Deputy earlier in the Dáil Chamber that he frequently talked about the need for local authorities to be strengthened, the need for proper local government and governance. With that in mind, why should I, as Minister, prescribe in legislation how the members of a local authority should work with members of the local community?

The view I am about to describe is not ascribed to the Deputy because I have never heard him make this point and do not believe he would. I hear people say they want to strengthen local government and give more power to local members, but when those local members make a decision with which people are not happy, they say they do not want local government to be strengthened; they really want groups that are not elected to local government to have strengthened powers versus elected representatives. I put it back to the Deputy that if he believes so strongly, as I believe he does, in the powers of local authorities and their elected members, it is up to the local authorities to state how they want to structure their engagement with communities which they are elected to represent. I could ascribe that motive to the amendment. I am not suggesting it is one the Deputy has, but somebody could interpret it as stating the Deputy is not confident that elected members in a local authority would be able to engage with communities in the way he or I would want them to do. I am confident that they would be able to do so. Why does the Deputy believe there is a need for this structure, leaving aside my point about bona fides, which is a serious one. If the Deputy believes the panacea for the difficulties he has described is having a role for elected members and he has faith in their ability to rise to that challenge, why does he believe that, on top of local authorities playing a role in a port, there is a need to put in place a group and for me, as Minister, to enforce it through primary legislation, as opposed to saying there is a need for local authorities to have a strengthened role which I hope he understands is my belief? A corollary to that belief is that I am confident they will be able to organise and structure their engagement with the local community in the way they see fit because that is what local government is for.

The Minister asks a reasonable question. I am very much in favour of strengthening the powers of local authorities. Whatever authority they have, however, is limited by the money available to them, but that is a different matter.

I think there was a misunderstanding in our engagement on the parliamentary question this morning and perhaps the Minister has not had much of a chance to review my amendments.

I have reviewed all of them in the way the Deputy would expect me to.

In that case, the Minister will know this because amendments Nos. 5 to 13, inclusive, have the same wording; they seek to replace every single reference to the “local authority chief executive” with the proposal that it be the elected council "in consultation with the Stakeholder and Community Group”. The amendments propose to take the decision-making process out of the hands of the chief executive officer and put it into the hands of the elected members.

Does the Deputy believe the CEO of the local authority should play no role in the running of ports?

Of course, I believe he or she should play a role, but that role should be set out by the elected members in consultation with the local community. We are all familiar with the difference between reserved and executive functions, the reserved functions being those elected councillors have in a local authority, with the executive functions being those of the unelected directors and managers. I am proposing in this instance - it should probably be the case in other instances too - that the power should be vested in the elected members. Contrary to what the Minister suggests, this would involve strengthening the powers of the elected members and, by extension, the influence of the public and creating a greater line of accountability because in a democracy the people in question can be replaced. In respect of the stakeholder group, it should comprise elected representatives, in other words, if a boat club or residents association-----

A business group.

Absolutely. If any of the groups seeks to participate in the stakeholder group, it should have to elect people. That is why I mentioned the earlier stakeholders group, in contrast with the reality, that the former CEO handpicked the stakeholder group.

How would we determine the bona fides of those to be included in this group? The Deputy is asking me to put this into primary legislation. It would be a matter of good practice for a port, or any unit of infrastructure, to have a way to structure its engagement with the community in which it is located. For example, in Grangegorman Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT, with which I am very familiar, has a consultative forum, separate from the board of directors, in which it engages with the local community. I know that while people might feel they are consulted, they might not be happy with the decisions the board of directors or the local authority might make. The primary legislation defines how people are to be elected and who will do what. None of that is contained in the amendment. If, for example, tomorrow, there were local elections and the Deputy’s group, the Anti-Austerity Alliance, People Before Profit, was to win an overall majority on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, would he not have enough confidence in the ability of local members to organise their own work, or does he feel it is necessary for the Government to state they must do this in such a way? Does he believe all of the definitions, including the phrase "bona fide", in not even stating how they would be elected, would open the door to further confusion about who did what? If his party was elected and had a majority in the chamber, does he not believe it would be its right to determine how it should engage with the local community as opposed to it being decided by me in law?

We genuinely seem to be at cross purposes because I cannot underline strongly enough that what I am proposing - it is very clear in the wording - is vesting power in the elected members. The amendment includes the words “in consultation with”. That is what I am proposing. The Bill, largely but not exclusively, gives decision-making power to the manager, not the elected members.

I propose to replace the references to the manager with the words "Elected Council in consultation with Stakeholder and Community Group". It is clear, therefore, what I am proposing. If the Minister wants to argue that this needs to be worded carefully or that he likes the thrust of what I am saying but that we need to think about using words such as "bona fide" and so on, the people in Dún Laoghaire and I are open to this. The thrust of the argument is that we do not want power to be vested largely or exclusively in the hands of the unelected CEO and we do not want power to continue to be vested in the CEO and the board of the harbour company which is unaccountable to anybody.

Let me move on to the model of integration and how-----

I am sorry, but I would like to raise one other issue before the Minister replies. It is the role of primary legislation to set broad parameters. In other words, the finer detail of how the stakeholders would be decided should be agreed to by the elected members, which is what I propose. If the Minister believes from a drafting point of view that we need to slightly amend the wording to achieve this, I am open to that, but it is entirely reasonable for national legislation to state there is requirement on local authorities to consult genuine stakeholders in regional ports which have the characteristic of being central and integral to their towns and hinterlands. That is what I am trying to achieve. That is the overwhelming feeling and it is even the stated objective of the harbour company to be integrated with the town and region, although it has not achieved this, in respect of which I have set out examples.

The Minister referred to People Before Profit, the Anti-Austerity Alliance and so on. I would be happy for legislation to structure an engagement with stakeholders. I learned so much at the oral hearing. I met people from the harbour whom I did not know existed. They had an incredible range of historical, heritage, financial and practical operational knowledge and expertise. It was brilliant in a sense; it was just tragic that it had happened six years too late. That is the thrust of what I am saying.

I will outline how this could work in the future. In primary legislation one does not leave the detail to be worked out somewhere else. When one looks to introduce concepts or prescribe how matters should be dealt it in primary legislation, one has to detail how something such as this could work. I have been clear on the issue of engagement with different ports and their future governance models. This is enabling legislation which lays out the models under which this could work. Some matters are left for decision by the boards of ports if they remain as independent units, while others are left for the decision of the Minister, to which I referred earlier in the Dáil. What I am about to say about how it will work in ports such as Dún Laoghaire applies to all ports of regional significance and does not refer purely to Dún Laoghaire Port because I have a decision to make on it and there is a process that will get me to that point. However, the current structures of companies in ports of regional significance may no longer be appropriate. It is time to acknowledge that some of them need to move into a mode where there will be complete integration with the local authorities within the areas they are located. On the other hand, for ports that have commercial businesses and that must meet particular needs or demands, it may well be the case that the current corporate structure needs to be retained. However, it will need to be retained inside a broader model involving local government within which the port is located.

I refer to the role of elected members and how it could work, depending on the decision made on a port. The legislation outlines three ways in which the CEO of the local authority or the CEO of the port will engage with the members of the local authority. Under section 23, there is a requirement that the chairperson and the CEO of the transferred company appear before them, as is the case in other areas of local government where local authority members through strategic policy committees can extend an invitation to stakeholders to appear before them to give testimony and then be quizzed by them. Section 22 provides that the proposed chairperson of a transferred company must appear before the elected members prior to his or her formal appointment. An Oireachtas committee such as this has the power to summon the chairpersons of independent semi-State bodies and a similar power is being vested in local authority members in the case of chairpersons of transferred companies. Under section 19, the annual audited accounts of these companies will be laid before the elected members. Oireachtas committees have the power to require the attendance of a chairperson or a CEO. I can well imagine a scenario where when the accounts of a port are laid before the local authority, the elected members will invite the port's officeholders to appear before them to answer questions. These changes amount to a significant strengthening of the powers of local authorities vis-à-vis ports located within their jurisdiction.

There is one matter I wish to flag. All of this might require a port company to make information available at that time that could be commercially sensitive. All of their affairs will have to be made public, not only to the local authority but also to members of the general public. In discharging its business a company could, for example, be going through a tendering or procurement process and there might be commercially sensitive matters which it could determine should not be in the public domain. Sections 19, 22 and 23 all deal with how we can strengthen the powers of elected members and seek to give them greater powers of oversight and inquiry to quiz port officeholders about matters of interest to communities that elect local authority members. It is for these reasons that the Bill, as drafted, significantly strengthens the powers of local members compared to where we are now. It is for that reason and others I outlined earlier in our engagement that I am not in a position to accept the Deputy's amendment.

I invite Deputy Ellis to speak first.

By and large the Harbours Bill 2015 is a good Bill. The transfer of control of the five designated ports of regional significance as well as the future transfer of other ports to the local authorities is good. I have an issue, which echoes a point made by Deputy Boyd Barrett on the executive powers of the chief executive. We have experience in the past of the Dublin city manager overriding the views of councillors. I believe the local councillors are best placed to make judgments. I accept there could be inputs from different groups. Groups, such as residents, people in the community and business people should be able to make an input, but the local authority councillors should have the main say. In my view that is the way it should be done.

In general the proposed transfers are reasonable.

Deputy Boyd Barrett will now make his final response.

If at the beginning of Committee Stage, I did not say what I have said in Dáil, let me now say that the broad thrust of the legislation represents progress. Let us not be at odds with one another because it is a welcome development that these harbours will come under the remit of local authorities. That is a step in the right direction. There is no question about that.

However, I think the Minister should be open to listening to genuine contributions in trying to achieve that end so that it really works. Those of us on the Left, are sometimes accused of being the naysayers, the people who are against proposals, but I wish to put a positive proposal to him. It could potentially unleash great creative energy to make these harbours - and I can speak largely for Dún Laoghaire - something great. My remarks are made in a positive spirit. We need to go the whole way in moving from a structure that is no longer appropriate, and in some cases has failed. Whether the structure was appropriate in the past is a matter that we can debate, but in the case of the Dún Laoghaire, the people are not happy with it and everything that happens in that harbour is controversial because the people do not have a say.

I accept the Bill is moving things forward, but we should think about how we could move it fully forward. I understand there are two different options. I fully understand that the Bill sets out the options and at this stage is not prescriptive in terms of which option should be taken up because the Minister is absolutely correct to say that the option which is best applied to Drogheda, Dundalk, Wicklow or other ports may be different and it is up to the people in those areas to make their voices heard and to engage with him and hopefully come to an agreement. What I am arguing is that in the case of Dún Laoghaire, the overwhelming view is that we need the harbour to be an integrated part of the local authority and that we need to further strengthen public involvement in it by involving the stakeholders and the public. I think that is very much in the spirit of the legislation but is elaborating on it in a way that can really make it work. If we get just a nominal change, and I accept that it is more than a nominal change as now these people will have to come in front of the elected councillors, which is a good thing, I think we should go further than that.

We can bring the banks before the finance committee, but we still do not get a lot of light as to what is going on in many cases. The fact that a person has to come before a local authority and answer some questions is better than them not coming in, but it is not the same as the elected members actually having a say over these things. It is not the same as the elected members having a body, a forum or whatever one calls it - I would call it a stakeholders' group - that they consult about the issues so that all the expertise and knowledge and so on of the community, the users and the stakeholders is inputted to allow the elected councillors to make the best decisions. Then obviously they should delegate that power to managers in the local authority. To me that seems the best way.

If we do not do that, we will end up with an informal stakeholders' group that is hand picked by others. Everybody needs to consult. The Minister has to consult others. I do not claim to be an expert on certain things on which I have to take a stance and make decisions. What do I do? If I am dealing with an education Bill I start to ring teachers and others and ask them what they think about these issues. That is what we do. That is the reason for the committee structure. I believe we need that type of forum to assist the councillors in getting the full and rounded view and that the councillors should have more extensive powers to make decisions and then delegate responsibility to the management, rather than the management dictating to them.

I think we have teased it out. Does the Minister wish to respond?

I fully accept the Deputy has had a very constructive attitude to the Bill. He has mentioned, and I have heard him list, the many things in the Bill that he supports. I acknowledge that fully. I hope that those who are watching the proceedings will see we are having a genuine exchange of informed views on the Bill.

I am in a different place from the Deputy on this matter. Let me give an example as to why I believe the Deputy could be underestimating the magnitude of what this Bill could mean for a port of regional significance. I could well imagine a scenario that could evolve where, let us say, a port is devolved fully to the local authority. It is reasonable to assume then that proposals in relation to that port would then become part of the local authority's budgets, which is put to local authority members to vote on. I believe the vote on Dublin City Council happened on Monday night and the members of the local authority could vote on it. That is the way in which people who are democratically elected have a say in relation to things within their area. If a port were to be a fully integrated part of a local authority, it would always be part of the development plans the local authority would have, but it could actually become part of its funding plans which the councillors would have to vote on. Surely that is the ultimate sign regarding this Bill seeking to change significantly the relationships that are in place between a port and the area in which it is located. To go into this wide-eyed, if I were to decide that a form of complete integration could be appropriate for a local port, I would then be making that decision on the basis of the existing power split between elected members and reserve members.

What I would say to the Deputy is to look at the powers of accountability that this Bill is introducing for elected members. The Deputy is correct to say that it is a different matter between bringing somebody in looking for an answer and genuinely getting that answer. I know they are different things, but he knows that the power to ask questions in the first place is a factor in changing behaviour and bringing things out in a more transparent manner.

I refer to my earlier point which was that it is entirely possible that proposals in relation to a port could end up as part of the local authority's budget which Deputy Boyd Barretts's colleagues would have to vote on. Surely that is a really substantial way of responding to the matters which concern Deputy Boyd Barrett.

I know this has gone on for a long time but I would like to respond briefly as we are finishing on the stakeholders' group and will be dealing with other specific matters later. I will refer to one example in the Bill. I welcome the role councillors will have but that is if it is part of an integrated whole rather than a corporate subsidiary. In the case of Dún Laoghaire, of the two options, we urge the Minister, who will ultimately be making the decision, to make it an integrated part of the county council.

I apologise to Deputy Boyd Barrett. I just wanted to check something with my officials.

That is no problem. I will give an example of the effect of my amendment on a specific area where currently the power is in the hands of the CEO. Section 6 deals with the temporary appointment of additional directors. In the Bill, as drafted, the Minister may in respect of the company appoint additional directors and the Minister may consult the chief executive of the local authority. I would propose changing that to "elected members". I believe the elected members should be deciding on the appointment of directors. They should be the voice of the council to the Minister on those issues. The elected members should also, in those instances, consult stakeholders and ask who they want on the board. That seems to me an eminently reasonable proposal and why I am arguing for this amendment.

A fair discussion has been allowed on the issue.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

We can have the vote on Report Stage because I know the Minister is going to take on board what I have said.

Question put and declared carried.
Sections 3 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
Question, "That section 6 stand part of the Bill", put and declared carried.
Section 7 agreed to.
SECTION 8

Amendments Nos. 2, 27 and 28 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:

“(3) This section shall not apply to Dun Laoghaire Harbour.”.

This amendment follows on from our earlier discussion. As set out by the Minister, the Bill has two options for these harbours. This amendment seeks that there would be just one option for Dún Laoghaire. The first of the two options is for the company to be a corporate subsidiary of the local authority with the existing board and company, in some shape or form, remaining in situ. The second option is to dissolve the company and for the harbour to become an integrated part of the local authority. We strongly favour the second option for Dún Laoghaire and do not believe the corporate subsidiary model is appropriate. I do not wish to speak for other ports, but in the specific case of Dún Laoghaire, we do not think it is appropriate. When I say "we", I think every manifestation of public interest in this issue shares the view and there are a number of reasons for the position.

The Government's national ports policy indicates that the traditional operations and priorities of Dún Laoghaire are changing and that it needs to move more in the recreational direction. It still is a working harbour and I would like to see it remain a working harbour. I want to make that clear. It was a tragedy that the Stena Line ferry service went. However, this illustrates why the harbour should be an integrated part of the council rather than a corporate subsidiary. We do not know what happened. I do not know this for sure and I am not sure we will ever know if it remains a corporate subsidiary, but I have heard that Stena Line was willing to stay but wanted to pay less in annual berthing fees and the harbour company would not agree to the proposal. I do not know if that is true but that is what I have heard from a reasonably reliable source. I would at the very least like to know if that is true and I think the public would like to know too. I think they would like to know exactly what happened in those negotiations and whether we should have taken a different stance which might have resulted in Stena Line staying.

More generally, the corporate subsidiary model is one which will push the harbour in the direction of privatisation. The evidence is there. The harbour master plan proposes a hotel and hundreds of apartments within the precincts of Dún Laoghaire harbour. I invite the Minister to look at the master plan if he has not already seen it. In connection with the harbour plan, a piece of land has already been put up for sale. This is land in a public harbour. The privatisation process is under way.

This is what is driving matters such as the cruise berth proposal, under which €18 million was to be borrowed using the assets of the harbour as collateral. Any serious economist examining this issue would be of the view that the cost of building infrastructure such as a cruise berth would be much greater than €18 million. For example, the HSS terminal cost €22 million and this proposed cruise berth is much bigger than that. We do not know how they came up with a figure of €18 million because they did not provide any substantial answer on the projected cost of the cruise berth to the harbour company.

A connected issue - this has been confirmed by the manager of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council - is what is described as the development of a hotel and apartments. In fact, St. Michael's pier, as set out in the Dún Laoghaire harbour company's master plan, is the financial driver of the cruise berth. In other words, if we get the cruise berth, we will get a hotel and hundreds of apartments. This will make a central part of the harbour that is now public, private and will fundamentally change the character of the harbour. Why is the harbour company doing this? It is doing it because it is driven by the requirement or mandate to be a profitable entity, which pushes it in that direction. We say that is not the direction it should be pushed.

If we are going to revitalise Dún Laoghaire town, what we need is a view of the harbour that sees it as part of the town instead of a part at odds with and competing with the town. Currently, there are 85 empty units in Dún Laoghaire town. There has been a serious decline, but the retailers and townspeople are fighting to try to save the town and are being imaginative and energetic on that. However, one of the big problems is this schism between the harbour and the town, which is institutionalised in the model of the corporate subsidiary, a quango currently under the Department but, a little like the Cherrywood development, soon to be moved to the council while remaining a corporate subsidiary. The council's share of Cherrywood is a corporate subsidiary and the elected councillors do not have a clue what is going on there. The managers know what is happening but the elected representatives, although it is formally under their remit, have not got a clue what is going on in Cherrywood. For that reason, we say this corporate subsidiary model is not appropriate to Dún Laoghaire.

Critically, if we take the second option and if that is the only option allowed for Dún Laoghaire, it could unleash positive forces not just for the harbour but also for the entire town. It would at last allow a holistic approach to developing Dún Laoghaire in a way whereby the town, harbour and seafront will mutually complement each other and be seen as an integrated whole. That is the spirit of what is being said here and I hope the Minister will take it on board. Regardless of whether he accepts this amendment, the decision will ultimately be made by him. I would like the decision to be made now, which is why the amendments are proposed. One way or another, however, the Minister will make the decision. I urge him to say the corporate subsidiary model is not the model we want and that we want a model that will be fully under the control of the council.

I will not be accepting this amendment. I am not accepting it for four reasons. The first of these is that the amendment prejudges the decision I am going to make. It is important that I, as Minister, and the Department have the ability to make what we believe to be the appropriate and effective decision for a port. Again, I want to make clear my hope that this Bill will be passed through the Oireachtas in a prompt manner but I do not seek to curtail debate in any way. When that happens, I will make a decision on the matter. While this process will be of assistance to me in making my decision, I want to make the decision and have the legislation, which has been in train for some time, enacted.

In regard to other issues to which the Deputy referred, I wish to make a broad point. I do not address the point to Deputy Boyd Barrett because if I do that, it would appear as if I am making the point about Dún Laoghaire port. That is not the case. I wish to make a broader point in regard to ports of regional significance. The funding and commercial needs of ports and the challenges they face will not go away. The latter will remain even when they are integrated into local authorities. I look forward to those who have been calling for the integration of these ports into the local authorities continuing that constructive, leadership approach when they then have to deal with the funding and commercial needs relating to them. The needs will remain.

The Deputy made a point in respect of commercial matters. There are matters that will continue to be of commercial sensitivity for ports. This does not mean I have a desire to keep matters secret from elected members of local authorities. If third parties feel they cannot have commercial discussions with ports in a manner that is confidential, they will not have those discussions at all. This will cause great difficulties for ports that are seeking to have discussions with third parties. Therefore, regardless of how ports are integrated into local authorities, it is important to say there will continue to be areas of commercial sensitivity that must be described as such in order to allow ports to have discussions with third parties about matters that are beneficial to the ports themselves.

On the issue of the due diligence process that is under way, I wish to make clear that this will inform the decision I make. Ultimately, I want to make the decision.

I am not a member of the select sub-committee, I am but a tourist. As the Minister has special responsibility for tourism, he may give me a good hearing.

I wish to make a few comments, more to do with section 8 than the amendments. Section 8 relates to the Schedule 1, tier 3 companies, including Galway Harbour Company. Galway Harbour is located in the country's third city. This relates more to the national ports policy, which predates the Minister's appointment. The ports policy states that the Department notes the return of cruise tourism traffic to Galway Harbour in 2012 and supports the company's efforts to develop this business. It also states that new legislation will allow for the potential of private investment. The category Galway Harbour is aligned with includes the ports of Dún Laoghaire, New Ross, Drogheda and Wicklow. If we look at page 23, table 2.1 of the ports policy, we see the reductions and decline in tonnage handled at selected Irish ports within that category. The reduction is 95% in Dún Laoghaire, 65% in New Ross, 49% in Drogheda, 37% in Wicklow and 7% in Galway. There is a much lower decrease in port output in Galway than at the other four ports in the category. Also, based on the 2011 figures, Galway has the highest tonnage, at 554,000.

The issue that concerns me is the categorisation of Galway Port and its inclusion in that group. As the Minister knows, Galway Port has large expansion plans and an oral hearing on these was held at the start of this year. The plans include the sale of some assets but propose the retention and redevelopment of the internal harbour area, which would be a huge boost to tourism in the Galway area because the harbour lies at the heart of the city. For a city of this size and with the potential for its port to serve a vast area of the west, the absence of a modern, national port is to be questioned. As far as I understand, Galway has been excluded - the only commercial port of its size to have been excluded - from TEN-T funding, which would have provided a huge boost. This funding could amount to up to 20% of the cost of capital expenditure for the proposed extension of the port. I am told Galway is the only port in the country within that range which is being denied this opportunity.

Waterford and Rosslare, which have tier 2 status, are eligible for TEN-T funding. The effect of not being a tier 1 or tier 2 port makes it extremely difficult to attract investment funds and potential investors for the port extension. There is no guarantee of planning permission but the soundings from An Bord Pleanála in respect of compensatory measures for the impact on the SAC within Galway Harbour are positive. Will the Minister indicate if there is any possibility that the status of tier 3 ports could be re-examined in the context of the legislation? If planning permission were granted - and where there is a possibility of using own resources and private investment - could the possibility of TEN-T funding be re-examined? That would be crucial to completing the programme. There is huge potential in the west for tourism and trade. However, the port of Galway is not fit for continued expansion in light of the existing facilities there.

I will explain to the Deputy from where TEN-T classification comes. The definition does not come from me, it comes from the European Union. There is a significant amount of legal and policy work done by the EU to define the criteria for a potential TEN-T port. I have sought to align the definitions in Ireland's legislation with the EU's definition of what constitutes a TEN-T port. However, the fundamental definition does not come from my Department or from the Government, it comes from the European Union. This is why Galway Port is not part of the TEN-T network and cannot apply for TEN-T funding. I am aware of the Galway Port board's views on this matter. The board raised the matter with me directly when I visited the port in the past 12 months. The board wants Galway Port to be upgraded because it believes it could then obtain access to TEN-T funding. However, the definition of a TEN-T port comes from the European Union not the Government. The only way a port can be classified as a TEN-T port or access TEN-T funding in the future is if the level of tonnage passing through it increases. If the level of tonnage passing through Galway Port increases, then there will be an opportunity to revisit the matter.

The possibility of more tonnage passing it is predicated on the expansion of the port because the current facilities are not fit for purpose and that is the catch-22 aspect of the matter. The figures from the European Commission are based on tonnage and on percentage for each country. Galway is at the upper level of the tier 3 ports. It handles the highest level of tonnage of such ports and had the lowest reduction in tonnage handled between 1998 and 2011, at just 7%. Other ports experienced reductions of up to 95% in the same period. The board is favourably disposed towards the expansion plans but the refusal of TEN-T funding was predicated on the figures to which I refer. I ask the Minister if a case could be made in any event - perhaps there might be a European precedent in this regard - to reflect the future possibilities for Galway, which is the country's third city and which is a major port in the west? If planning permission were granted, would the Minister be in a position to put a case to the Commission that an exception be made in respect of TEN-T funding for Galway Port?

We need to be very clear here. This has been a long-standing policy framework of which the board of Galway Port is aware. It is not a case of it - or anybody else - being able to apply for TEN-T funding and then having it refused. There are very clear criteria in place regarding what is and is not a TEN-T port. I am not going to comment - as the Deputy has not commented - on the application which is under way, because it is subject to the planning process. I will, therefore, stay well clear of that matter. The position in respect of what constitutes a TEN-T port has always been crystal clear, however, as has that regarding the types of funding that for which ports either can or cannot qualify. I have made this clear to the port authorities and on the public record in the Houses on a number of occasions.

Will the Minister's designation of the ports influence whether a port qualifies for TEN-T? Does the designation as tier 2 or tier 3 have any influence?

No, absolutely not. The criteria are: that passenger traffic volume exceeds 0.10% - that is, 0.10% of the total annual passenger traffic volume of all maritime ports of the EU; that the total annual cargo volume exceeds 0.10% of the corresponding cargo volume; that the port is located on an island; the port provides the sole point of access to the region within the comprehensive network; and that the maritime port is located in an outermost region or a peripheral area outside a radius of 200 km from the nearest other port in the comprehensive network. These criteria do not come from me, they are set for TEN-T funding overall. They are the criteria, created by the European Union, that must be met regardless of the classification of a port under the legislation before the select sub-committee. The same regulations set out a review period during which these matters can be looked at but the criteria have always been very clear and in the public arena. It has always been understood to whom the criteria apply or do not apply.

When is the review period anticipated?

Will the Minister clarify if that review will relate to the legislation or the ports' policy?

It will be a review of the European Union framework and the ability or inability of ports to apply for this funding.

The Minister has said that the amendment I proposed pre-empts his decision and I fully accept this to be the case. It asks him to make the decision by the time the Houses complete their consideration of the Bill. It is in the Minister's power to make the decision but this matter has been debated at length for a long time. We have conducted extensive engagement at some of the biggest public meetings in recent times in Dún Laoghaire, so I believe I speak for a majority of stakeholders and for the public on this matter. There is an unprecedented number of submissions to the planning authorities regarding developments for the harbour. The people of Dún Laoghaire and harbour stakeholders of all shapes and sizes are very engaged with the process and have pretty much definitively expressed their views about where they want this to go. We are asking the Government, by this amendment, to make the decision as part of the Bill because it has gone on for too long. Perhaps the Minister would indicate the schedule for completion of Committee Stage. Will it be next week or the week after and when will it proceed to Report Stage?

I wish to underline the fact that the inspector from An Bord Pleanála, and indeed anybody who has to make any decision about Dún Laoghaire, is in a kind of limbo at present. I would not be surprised if An Bord Pleanála delayed making a decision about the cruise berths until the legislative framework for the harbour is set and the relationship between the town and the harbour is established.

People are operating in a vacuum. They have been aware for some time that a decision is due but it has not been made. Although the legislation has been introduced, it does not make a decision. If the Minister will not accept the amendment or make the decision as part of the Bill, which the amendment seeks to do, could he indicate approximately when the decision will be made, as it has a bearing?

It is my ambition to have the Bill passed before Christmas, within the coming weeks. This depends on how long Report Stage takes in the Dáil and the length of time it takes in the Seanad. If the Bill is passed by Christmas, I will aim to make as many of the decisions as I can on ports of regional significance promptly thereafter.

The phrase "promptly thereafter" is a little vague. It would be helpful for a number of reasons to inform the context in which we will be operating for that decision to be made relatively soon. In a way, I welcome the fact there are several weeks, or maybe a couple of months, to go, given that people will have the opportunity to make their views known to the Minister. The Minister is inviting them to do so, and I urge them to do that. The voice of the stakeholders, including but not limited to the elected representatives, must be heard in making the decision. We need real public consultation on it. I am confident that the public wants the dissolution of the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company.

I will explain why the Minister should choose the option proposed in the amendment. He referred to the finances and said if we get what we want, he will have to take the money issue and operating costs seriously. I accept this. There will be challenges. As part of his decision-making process, the Minister will be examining, if he has not already done so, the profit and loss account for 2013. The company made an operating loss in 2013 of €383,000 and a full loss of €890,000. It also made a loss in 2012. The company has axed the numbers of essential front-line workers, such as the harbour police and maintenance workers. I saw a fantastic table contained in one of the submissions to An Bord Pleanála, which I may submit to the Minister over the coming days. The table shows that the progress from profit to loss, in a consistent pattern over the past six years, coincides with the cutting of the workforce. If the cutting of the workforce was supposed to improve the financial position, it has had the exact opposite effect. There is an exact correlation between the axing of the front-line workforce and the company's move from a position of profit to loss. Although a number of factors have contributed to it, it is interesting.

In contrast, for some time, I have alerted the Minister to the incredible waste in which the harbour company engages. Compiling the cruise berth plan cost the harbour company €625,000, which is almost the same amount as the loss it made. The Minister should read the council's very detailed report from May 2015 on the recent history of developments in the harbour. The council has contributed an extraordinary €1,217,000 to activities in the harbour. While many activities take place in the harbour, the bulk of the money was spent on subsidising the harbour company for the elements of the master plan to which people are opposed. The floating swimming pool received €156,000. The tender berth received €230,000, although given that we have no problem with the small cruise ships coming to the Carlisle Pier, one could argue that it was reasonable to spend this money.

The council paid €250,000 for the planning for the giant cruise ship berth. Approximately €31,000 was spent on trips abroad related to the cruise berth and further money was spent on welcome events for the cruise ships. It adds up to nearly €1 million from the council over recent years, the expenditure of which was dictated by an unaccountable stakeholders' group comprising the CEO of the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company, the director of services in the environment section and a representative of the Dún Laoghaire Business Improvement District, BID. These three people have decided that expenditure and the council has come to know about the detail of much of it late in the day. This is a lot of public money in a situation in which the public are at odds with all the key elements of what the money has been spent on developing.

Before this hundreds of thousands of euro was spent on a plan to build a ten-storey apartment block on the Carlisle Pier. I do not know whether the Minister remembers it. There was a public consultation on four proposals, all of which involved high rise development on the site of the historic Carlisle Pier. The biggest group of people said they did not want any of them. The one the public preferred was not selected. The group selected the second least favourite and then nothing happened, although a huge amount of money was spent on it. This goes on and on.

Another issue for the Minister to consider regarding all that money wasted on things the people did not want is the combined cost of the harbour board and the very high salaries and expenses of the executives. This is where the due diligence comes in. I estimate it to be approximately €600,000 per year. Did the Minister know the salary of the CEO of the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company is approximately twice those of the CEOs of the other harbours of regional significance dealt with in the Bill? It is a waste of money. If one removed all that wastage, the company would break even. The company has been subsidised consistently by public money over the years. We would be in a better financial position if we dissolved the harbour company and brought the harbour under council control. It has revenue streams and property which generate revenue.

People have not just said "No" to the harbour company's activities, but have set out alternatives. For example, there is great enthusiasm for a diaspora museum. People have been calling for it for years, going back to John de Courcy Ireland.

It is an open goal, even as a national priority. Carlisle Pier was the exit point for the vast majority of those who were to form the Irish diaspora. The oldest suburban railway in the world extended to that pier, which was constructed in the 1830s. There is a wealth of heritage associated with the diaspora and emigration. It is an absolutely open goal and we could generate an enormous benefit, certainly locally and regionally but probably nationally, by developing a diaspora museum on the site rather than wasting it on madcap plans, excessive salaries and massive financial gambles. There is considerable enthusiasm for a State-run national maritime and sailing centre. The council has just passed a motion on this.

Why should it be State run?

It should be State run because sailing would not just be something for people with a lot of money who can afford membership of yacht clubs. The facility could be opened to the people in the region and wider area so they could learn how to sail and about boats and the sea. Would it not be fantastic if every school in the Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County Council area had the option of bringing its children to sail in the harbour and learn about boats? Would that not be absolutely wonderful?

First, I genuinely tried to deal with the substance of the Deputy's amendment earlier. Second, I have listened carefully to the Deputy on the need for a category such as the one described in terms of ports of regional significance. We have followed up on our national ports policy by making the arrangement available through law. If ports of regional significance are dissolved into the local authority structure, I will look forward to the Deputy playing his part in detailing how their development needs will be funded by the local authorities, bearing in mind that the latter would need to fund the ports themselves.

Does Deputy Ó Cuív wish to contribute?

I was going to wait until we got to Schedule 1 but I understand the issue of Galway has already been raised under section 8. Two issues arise, the first of which is that nobody in the west, including Galway, wants a change to the status of the port. In fact, the people of Galway have very ambitious plans for the port. Nobody in the region has requested that there be a facility to transfer responsibility either to the CEO or the local authority. What is the thinking behind the inclusion in the Bill? I accept that the word "may" is used but I wish to know the thinking in the Department on including a provision in the legislation when nobody wants in included therein.

The second issue is that there is a habit of what I call "status quoism". In other words, we are perpetuating into the future what occurred in the past, largely for physical reasons, by slamming the door and saying that the future has to be a mirror image of the past. The reason Galway Harbour was not developed is very simple. It is a tidal harbour with a gate on it and the time in which one can get in and out is very constrained. The harbour is very small. It is a bit like going to an airport that can take only very small aeroplanes. Although one might wonder why jumbo jets are not flown into it, one must ask how it could be done. One might wonder why one could not fly Boeing 747 aircraft into it. This was the principle that the late Monsignor Horan understood when he was being offered by the Department the Minister now heads the famous Aer Arann strip in Knock. My colleague, who lives much nearer to it than I do, would understand that the strip offered, an Aer Arann strip, would have taken a seven-seater aeroplane. By God, Monsignor Horan must be up in heaven laughing at the Department. There are nearly 1 million passengers in Knock now and they are not flying there in Aer Arann aeroplanes. Why is the provision included in Schedule 1 to the Bill, which is facilitated by section 8?

I understand the Minister said that, in light of the position on TEN-T funding and tier-2 status, it is laid down by the European authorities that he has no function in the matter and that the decision is based on historic tonnages. That is interesting because there was a proposal at one stage to move the port in Dublin up the coast away from the city. If we were to do that, would it be excluded from TEN-T funding although it would have an historic tonnage of zero? I am sure a way of funding the port would be found. I am sure there would be a way of getting around the issue.

In more recent times the port in Limerick moved to Foynes, the main port in the region. Could the Minister get his officials to send me the links to where it is stated tier-2 status cannot be granted on the basis of a port's future ability as opposed to historic records? If we have allowed the European Union to become so blind as to predicate the future on the past, there is a serious question to be answered by our MEPs collectively and various Ministers over the years, including those in Governments in which I served. Nothing should be allowed to be done on the basis of historic constraints that could be overcome in the future; otherwise the least-developed areas will stay least developed. Does the Minister realise what his Department is doing? There is a policy in the Department to build everything based on the past.

A trend in recent Government decisions is that we are putting everything on the east coast. Being from the city of Dublin and having grown up very near to the port of Dublin, my problem with that trend is that the Minister is destroying Dublin for the people who live there. The policy of putting everything in the city is leaving so many people unable to afford to buy a house. People have to go down the country, to Carlow or elsewhere, to try to get a house in which to live. In fact, we are experiencing what I used to describe as the melting ice cream effect of the so-called greater Dublin area, GDA. All one has to do is check the commuter trains from Athlone, Tullamore, Longford, etc., to discover the effect of the policy. We are forcing people to live in one place and work in another because all the jobs that could be distributed around the country are being created in the city. By putting all the infrastructure in the city, one is doing the same thing. It is not to the benefit of the city. When I used to travel out of town for three miles to school in Mount Merrion, we were nearly in the countryside.

Now, one would want to go down towards Bray or way up to Enniskerry to get to the countryside. Every year that passes, more efforts are made to gobble up more of the land around Dublin, either the scenic land to the south and up towards the hills or the most fertile land in the country to the north of the county. It is important to record it here.

What we are winding up with is State companies in Dublin, Rosslare, Waterford, Cork and Foynes. Foynes is actually nearer to Cork Port than it is to Galway by road. The Minister is saying that from Foynes Port - which is on the southern side of the Shannon and not only in Munster but actually in Limerick, not Clare - all the way around the coast to Derry city, there will be no port. That is notwithstanding the fact that a great deal of the indigenous raw material one might want to export comes from the west coast. Lime is being exported from very near to where I live. It is very high quality and makes very significant money. Timber has been exported and we import oil directly into Galway.

Could the Minister arrange for me to be given the link on the criteria for these tier 2 ports? I suggest that the Minister delete Galway from the Bill in the meantime while we go to our MEPs and get this sorted out. We must get this total injustice that has been done at European level put right. In the meantime, and in anticipation of the matter being put right, however long that takes, everybody in the west wants this company kept as a State company. I hope the Minister will therefore tell us that he will table an amendment on Report Stage deleting Galway Harbour Company from Schedule 1 of the Bill and that he will accept the status quo until we correct this total injustice in European law that the Minister tells us is there and precludes us from getting TEN-Ts.

I know and the Minister knows what is going on in the Department. All the ports transferring to local authorities will wither and die as commercial ports and become recreational ports and minor facilities. They will not be serious ports on a national scale. By the very definition, they will no longer be national ports. We want a national port on the west coast and we will insist on getting it. There is unanimity among all Oireachtas Members who represent or aspire to represent west Galway, including Deputy O'Mahony, who is joining us there, that we do not want the status of Galway Port changed. If there is a block or barrier in EU law to tier 2 status, we want that changed at EU level rather than to have the Minister cement an asinine decision or provision of European law.

There are two broad points in relation to what Deputy Ó Cuív has said. First, he is absolutely wrong to describe this as a Bill of the status quo. He would only have to have been privy to some of the earlier debates between Deputy Boyd Barrett and me to say that this is anything but a Bill of the status quo. This is looking to take a serious view of the governance structures in place for all of our ports. It seeks to make decisions about them to give them all the best opportunity to be sustainable and successful in the future. Deputy Ó Cuív may well disagree, as he is entirely entitled to do, with the decisions that have been made, but to describe this as a Bill of the status quo is plain wrong.

Second, the Deputy forecast the prospect of no port for the part of the country that he seeks to represent. I find that unbelievably pessimistic and, frankly, not a credible forecast. To forecast no port and then to seek to champion the cause of the same port is at best inconsistent. I, on the other hand, am confident that the ports we have will grow and find different ways to do so. In fact, Galway Port grew last year, notwithstanding which the Deputy is coming in here and forecasting that it will not exist in the future.

On the level of discussion that is under way and where the need has emerged, it is my understanding that discussions with Galway City Council are progressing in a very positive way. Due diligence is under way and I have met the port and Galway City Council to discuss this matter. The rationale for the change is coming from the fact that the integration of this port offers the prospect for it to be better integrated into the area in which it is located and to grow both as a port and as part of the city itself. That is why the change is being made.

On the TEN-T funding criteria, the Deputy is correct to say that the definition for TEN-T funding is not set by me but by bodies of the European Union which outline what a TEN-T port is and how such ports engage with each other. However, I suggest respectfully that it is at least reasonable to say that the past will be a factor in how things perform in the future. That is at least a reasonable stance to take. If we are looking to access funding or support for any port or part of national infrastructure, it is only reasonable that other parties will ask how it has performed in the past. It is a reasonable stance for people to take.

On the Deputy's request on the overall Bill, I will answer in writing any needs or requests for information that the Deputy has. It will not be from the Department. I will answer them before Report Stage so that we can perhaps outline to the Deputy in more depth the rationale for all of this. The decision that is being made in the Bill is being introduced by me as Minister and I am taking responsibility for it, as the Deputy would suggest. I have demonstrated and the Government has demonstrated our efforts to support different ports in different ways. On the point the Deputy made about Dublin Port, I find it as incredible as the claim that a port like Galway might not exist in the future. I find that quite a claim to make.

This is not fair. The Minister is twisting what I said.

I am going to respond to the points the Deputy made. He put them to me and I am responding. Similarly, for him to say the growth of Dublin Port is bad for the city of Dublin-----

Deputy Donohoe is the most incredible Minister. I have never come across the like of it.

That kind of growth has been to the benefit of Dublin and the region around it. We now have an overall ports policy that seeks to support different ports in different ways. That is what this policy is about.

The Minister's contribution has been the most extraordinary twisting of what I said that I have heard in a long time. It shows the arrogance that the Minister has built up during his period. What I said in relation to the status of Galway Port was that to build it based on what it was in the past, when it was physically constrained by the harbour, would be to retain the status quo. I did not say the whole Bill retained the status quo. I repeat that making decisions on the future by using past performance as a major criterion is to preserve the past rather than to see the possibilities of the future.

The second point I want to correct is simply this. I stated that the Government has generally had a policy of centralisation into Dublin, which, in my view, as a Dubliner, is not to the benefit of this city. It is certainly not to the benefit of the country and it is not to the benefit of anybody living on the island of Ireland. One ends up with the farcical situation of overcrowded schools, health facilities and community facilities and no available houses in one part of the country, and schools screaming out and begging for pupils, health centres that could take twice the number of attendees, and community facilities and sports clubs that are begging for players in the other part. It is totally wasteful economics. I did not say that I wanted to hold back the development of the port of Dublin, and the Minister will not find that anywhere in my contribution if he reads the transcript. Let us be absolutely clear about that. Let us try not to play the usual game of the east coast versus west coast. As somebody who has a major stake in both coasts, I have always believed passionately that by developing the whole country at an equal pace and not dislocating people unnecessarily from one side of the country to the other, we would build a better quality of life for our people, because dislocating people and communities is most destructive. We could agree to differ on that, but I do not want my words twisted.

The Minister intimated, if I understand him correctly, that his understanding is that Galway City Council is favourably disposed to a change in the status of the company from a port company to a company under either the CEO or the local authority. If we organise for a resolution to be passed by Galway City Council stating that it unequivocally wants this deleted from the Bill and if we get a similar resolution passed by the port company between now and Report Stage, will the Minister be willing to withdraw the reference in the Schedule to Galway Port on the basis that the people of Galway do not want this? My understanding is that neither the city council nor the port company, whose representatives contacted their local Deputies about the matter, as the Chairman will be aware, is in favour of what is in this Bill.

I am glad about the clarification on the TEN-T funding. The Minister has now said it is only one of the criteria taken into account. I am sure, therefore, that when a person is making a case for a port, the Minister will be able to go in and say that what constrained the development of Galway Port in the past was not just the lack of growth in the region, although, thankfully, Galway is now growing very fast. It was a lack of business, if one likes, but primarily the thing that constrained the growth of Galway Port was the geography of the port, which the harbour company overcame. If one could put a strong business case, as the port company has, that if the physical constraint of the port was overcome it would be one of the fastest growing ports in the country, no doubt the custodians of the TEN-T funding criteria would say that if there is a will in the Department to promote the case it would pose no problem, and the funding would be granted. The case is made and it is a very good explanation as to why the past and the future will be totally different.

One of the great aspects of Galway Port is that if one had the facility we are looking for there, it would be the only major city port, as far as I know, from which one could walk to the city centre in less than ten minutes. One certainly cannot walk from Alexandra Basin to O'Connell Street in ten minutes, one cannot walk from where the ships berth in Cobh to Cork city centre in ten minutes, one cannot walk from Foynes to Limerick in ten minutes, and my understanding is that cruise liner passengers would not be able to walk from Belview to Waterford city in ten minutes. In Galway, one would literally be landing in the heart of the city.

In addition, cruise liners want to visit interesting places. Of course, a lot of tourists want to visit Dublin, but it is also well recognised by the cruise companies that they have a particular interest in visiting the west of Ireland, including the heart of a medieval city and the beautiful countryside that includes such iconic tourism features as the Aran Island, the Cliffs of Moher and Connemara, as well as the city itself. It is a no-brainer that if one develops the port, the cruise ships will come. Cruise ship sailing is a relatively recent phenomenon with the massive growth that has taken place, and, therefore, to a certain extent, the past is irrelevant because it is only the recent past.

I am glad to hear we are not excluded from this TEN-T funding and that it is merely a question of making the case. Could the Minister confirm, first, whether he will withdraw the provision in the Bill if Galway City Council and Galway Harbour Company pass resolutions between now and Report Stage requesting that this not be done? Second, can he confirm that the designation as a tier 2 port is a matter for the national, not the European, authorities? Third, will he confirm that past performance is only one criterion for TEN-T funding and, as a criterion rather than an overriding prohibition, it could be overcome by explaining why the future will be different from the past?

I thank Deputy Ó Cuív. I want to pick up on two broad points he made before I go on to answer his detailed question. He correctly stated that there is a high level of proximity between the port and Galway city. They are close to each other. He makes the fair point that the walk from Alexandra Basin to the city centre of Dublin is a hell of a lot longer than the walk from the port to the city of Galway, but that is the very reason why the best way to handle the development of the port is in an integrated manner.

If it suits Galway, why does the Minister not do it in Dublin?

That is the reason I believe the development is better done in an integrated manner. Precisely because there is an adjacency between the port and the city, if both bodies were working together in the integrated manner that this Bill allows, it would better allow the port and the city and county to realise the goals that each of them has.

Deputy Ó Cuív made a point regarding the Dublin focus of the Bill. I would point to the support that I have given.

I made no reference to a Dublin focus in the Bill at any stage.

Deputy Ó Cuív made some points in that regard. He did, indeed. He made the point in relation to his view regarding the disproportionate development of Dublin.

Not Dublin Port.

I want to correct-----

This Bill deals with Dublin.

On a point of order-----

I will let Deputy Ó Cuív respond.

-----I am being gratuitously and purposefully misrepresented.

This Bill deals with ports.

It is important.

I will continue my point and I will respond to what Deputy Ó Cuív said.

When somebody sets about misrepresenting what one said-----

This Bill refers to ports.

-----it shows this arrogance of the Minister.

I will continue and answer the questions that the Deputy has put to me. If Deputy Ó Cuív wants to keep on talking rather than hearing my answers to the questions, that is his choice.

The Minister should address the points I made, not some imaginary point.

I will allow Deputy Ó Cuív to contribute again when the Minister has concluded.

The Deputy came to the meeting to make points and I did not respond or interrupt him in any way when he did so. He makes claims about me but does not allow me to respond.

I did not make any claims.

He is seeking to have me answer questions regarding claims that he has made and I will answer each of them in turn.

The Minister is an extraordinary man.

However, it appears he does not want to afford me an opportunity to do so.

I have given the Minister plenty of opportunities to do so.

On the Deputy's point concerning the local authority, members of the local authority may vote in any way they wish but this Bill offers the best possible way to meet the needs of the port. We are proposing to increase the power and role of a local authority vis-à-vis the port. Why would a local authority decline to accept that proposal? I hope it will at least consider the issue before voting on the issue.

The Deputy is correct that the designation of a port as a port of national or regional significance is a matter of policy for the Government. Their participation in the trans-European transport networks, TEN-T, categories is not a matter of policy but independent of the designation of port on which the Government decides.

I am pleased the Deputy is giving me an opportunity to answer his questions. To participate in TEN-T a port must meet at least one of a number of criteria. The full set of criteria is as follows: the port exceeds 0.1% of total passenger volume for all ports in the European Union; it exceeds 0.1% of total cargo volume for all ports in the Union; it is located on an island and provides the sole point of access to a NUTS III region in the comprehensive network; and it is located in an outermost region or a peripheral area outside a radius of 200 km from the nearest other port in the comprehensive network.

These refer to the position in the past.

What I am saying is-----

I guess some of them refer to the past.

I will read the document carefully and take up the matter with our European colleagues.

I assure the Deputy that I will supply him with any information he seeks.

I will get it myself.

He is welcome to do so but I am only too happy to comply with the various requests he has made. The geography element of the criteria will be a current matter. Meeting the other criteria requires the submission of information which the EU authorities will then evaluate.

I am amazed by the Minister's statement that it is much better for integrated development if Galway Port comes under the remit of the local authority. To follow that logic, if it is good for Galway Port, why is it not good for the ports of Dublin, Waterford, Cork and Limerick? Why is Galway the only former gateway city for which integration of the port in the local authority is a good idea? It seems it is good for the other gateway cities to take a different approach. Why was Galway the only city that did secure tier 2 status based on its potential?

It is arrogant of the Minister to inform us that, even if Galway City Council and the Galway Port Company indicate that his initial statement on this matter was a misrepresentation of their position, he will ram through his proposal. That is what he told us. I am sorry for my colleagues who represent Galway West. This seems to be similar to the type of attitude that was taken about providing a helicopter service to Carnmore.

We are discussing the harbours Bill.

I am referring to an attitude that does not respect the wishes of people in the region. Is it the Minister's position that even if Galway City Council and Galway Port Company adopt a resolution asking him to delete the reference to Galway Port, he will decline to do so? Will he give a straight answer to that question? Is that his position?

Before answering, I ask the Deputy if he would like to make any further points.

I have just asked the Minister a straight question. If Galway City Council and Galway Port Company pass a resolution asking the Minister to maintain the status quo in order that a future Minister could declare the port a tier 2 port, as a State company, will he delete the reference to Galway Port in Schedule 1?

I will not change the national ports policy that has been clearly set out by the Government. The legislation before us is entirely consistent with that policy.

The Deputy asked the reason Galway Port has a specific designation. Ports of national significance, tier 2 ports, had to meet three criteria. First, they had to be responsible for at least 2.5% of the overall tonnage handled nationally. Second, they had to have the clear, demonstrable potential to handle higher volumes of unitised traffic. Third, they had to have in place transport links to serve a wider national marketplace, beyond the immediate region. The key criterion is the first one relating to the share of business of a port. Since the corporatisation of the harbour company in 1997, the highest market share Galway Port has achieved in any year has been 2%. Its average market share in the past 16 years has been 1.5%. That is the performance of the port and it is for this reason that the designation I have proposed is appropriate. I emphasise again, however, that independent of that, I do not set the criteria laid down for TEN-T funding.

The Minister should not worry as we will deal with that matter in Europe. He should park the issue as it will not be dealt with today. The extraordinary thing about what he said is that when I put to him the point that this national policy is based on the status quo in respect of Galway Port, which was restricted by a physical constraint in the harbour, he went all over the shop and started talking rubbish. He is clearly stating that it has been decided to maintain the status quo for Galway Harbour in respect of a physical feature that makes it impossible to accommodate a sizeable vessel in the harbour. This is a classic chicken and egg scenario. The Minister is not providing the port with a specific designation because it does not have sufficient traffic and he is not affording it an opportunity to attain the required level of traffic because it is restricted by a physical constraint.

Ministers must always be alert to the tendency, when State policy is being written, to conveniently arrive at the right answer by concentrating everything on the south and south east and leaving the west and north west coast denuded. This has been a continuous policy which, in fairness to brave people in the west, has been overcome. I referred previously, for instance, to Knock Airport, which was built despite rather than with the assistance of the Department the Minister heads. I remember in my previous role in Corr na Móna being told that there was not 30,000 tonnes of timber available for the timber mill in the village. The mill now handles more than 400,000 tonnes of timber per annum. Again, the status quo prevailed at the time. It was believed that a small mill would do no harm but, by God, nothing that far west would be allowed to grow. The community defeated the established thinking in State Departments.

I am intrigued with the Minister's clear declaration to the people of Galway that they are going to get this whether they want it or not and that he is not going to heed anybody west of the Shannon. I look forward to seeing his colleagues defend that thesis on the doorsteps of Galway in the forthcoming election. I can tell him that it is going to be a hard sell in Galway. Nobody in the west is going to accept this as a reasonable policy. They are not going to accept the kind of arrogance that is coming from the Minister's side of the table. If the Minister persists, he will find that the people will give their answer.

On a point of order, are we speaking to the amendment or to the section?

The amendment.

I have no problem with what is being said, by the way. I think people should have a chance to ventilate their stuff. I am just curious.

I am giving a lot of latitude here.

I would like to reply to the previous rant, which is all I would describe it as. The policy that the Deputy from Galway has such a difficulty with was broadly welcomed in parts of the west of Ireland, including counties Clare, Limerick and Kerry. It was welcomed at this committee. Nobody from the Deputy's party spoke in this way at the pre-legislative stage of this Bill or when the ports policy was being discussed here.

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I know the Deputy has a difficulty in showing some respect to people in here. He will not interrupt me in the manner in which he has just spoken to the Minister. He referred to his previous occupation as a Minister. He should know from his time in that office that respect is a two-way street. It does him a great disservice to refer to the Minister as "arrogant" and to say he is coming out with "rubbish"

Okay. I ask the Deputy to speak on the amendment.

It is a pity the previous Deputy did not do so. The point I am making is that there is a port in the west of Ireland that has tier 1 status. I refer to the Shannon Foynes Port Company. The former Minister and current Deputy from Galway might have a difficulty with compass bearings, but I can tell him that the Shannon Estuary flows into the Atlantic Ocean. The last time I checked, the Atlantic Ocean was the western seaboard of Ireland. When the joint committee previously discussed this matter with representatives of a number of port companies, it became very clear and very apparent-----

(Interruptions).

I will wait until a bit of respect is shown.

Okay, could we-----

I ask the Deputy to continue.

I am leaving now.

That is probably the most constructive thing the Deputy could do.

Good luck and have a nice day.

Does Deputy Ó Cuív not want to hear my response to his points?

No, because he has to go on Galway Bay FM.

Hold it, we will get a little bit of order back here.

It is a sign of how little interest Deputy Ó Cuív has in my answer that he is going to walk out the door.

I thought the Minister had responded.

I asked Deputy O'Donovan to come in and I was going to ask the Minister to respond to both Deputies in a moment.

I thank the Chair.

I ask Deputy O'Donovan to conclude.

I have a number of things to say.

Okay. The Deputy should say them.

The Government's ports policy was attacked with an astounding level of ignorance a while ago. It is obvious to me that the Deputy in question has not read the ports policy. If he has read it, he certainly does not know about the levels of tonnage that are being transferred through most of the ports he mentioned. I remind him that the Shannon Foynes Port Company conveys in excess of 10 million tonnes of cargo into and out of the State on an annual basis. It is justifiably in a position where it can be rated as a tier 1 port of national importance. That is why its designation as such has been broadly welcomed by chambers of commerce and representative groups and by all political representatives in the mid-west region, as far as Galway, with whom I have dealt. That is why I find the Deputy's position astounding. Maybe his party might like to clarify its position. I note the absence from this debate of its spokesman on transport. The party in question is all over the place in regard to what it wants for the development of ports. That is certainly true in the case of the Shannon Foynes Port Company. If the Deputy is going to play politics with this matter, I will make a political charge as well by saying it is time for his party in the Limerick, Clare and north Tipperary area to decide, for once and for all, whether it is in favour of running down the Shannon Foynes Port Company.

Has it been run down?

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I listened to his rant for long enough. I think everybody in here has had to listen to it as well. To be quite honest, if the person who is now making the charge against the policy had engaged with the ports companies and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport at this committee in any kind of constructive way, if he had spoken to the people who are actually using the ports in question or if he had looked at the depths of water that are available, he might be aware that - to put it very simply - when one is bringing a big ship into a port, one needs to be able to berth it without hundreds of millions of euro having to be spent on unnecessary dredging. When one has berthed the ship, one needs to be able to unload it. When one has unloaded it, one needs to be able to convey the cargo by road or rail. That infrastructure is already in place on the western seaboard. I find it absolutely astounding that anybody from the Fianna Fáil Party would attack Shannon Foynes Port, and counties Clare and Limerick, in the manner that has been done at this meeting. It is not the first time it has been done. The absence of Fianna Fáil's spokesperson on transport, Deputy Dooley from County Clare, speaks volumes in this regard. I would imagine that he is mortified by what is being done in the name of Fianna Fáil in here today.

We are not-----

This policy and the Bill in question are about recognising-----

I ask the Deputy to conclude his remarks.

The amendments before the committee are about recognising for the first time that a level or tier of ports in this country has a more local emphasis than a national one. People have said over the years that we cannot have cancer services and accident and emergency departments at every crossroads. In the same way, we cannot expect to berth Panamax ships at every port in the country. It is simply not feasible or-----

Okay. The Deputy has made his point.

I would like to make a final point in conclusion.

Quickly, please.

I have waited a long time for this Bill to come in. The stakeholders in the companies around the country, who have also waited a long time, are looking for certainty. They now have the policy. The Minister knows that I am consistent on this issue. Every time he has been here, I have asked for this Bill to be brought forward so that this policy can be legislated for as soon as possible. Investment in these ports is being held up by the uncertainty that exists at present. No legislation pertaining to the Shannon Foynes Port Company was introduced over a 14-year period. That port and all the ports were left to wither on the vine by the previous Government, which was more concerned about how it would look locally than about how it would deliver nationally. Finally, somebody has taken the bull by the horns, for want of a better word, and decided that there cannot be a tier 1 port of national importance in every county in the country. It is amazing that we are not being asked to locate one in County Longford.

Okay. The Deputy should conclude.

I have a serious point of order. I accept that the Deputies have the right to make these points. It is important that they get an opportunity to debate this issue fully. I do not mind how long they debate it for because it is obviously important to them. However, I would like to say as a point of order that this debate has absolutely nothing to do with the amendments we are dealing with at the moment, two of which relate specifically to Dún Laoghaire Harbour. Amendment No. 4 proposes to delete references-----

We are still on amendment No. 2.

Okay. That amendment relates to Dún Laoghaire.

Does the Minister want to come back in?

I am just pointing out that this has nothing to do with Dún Laoghaire. We are sort of jumping ahead of ourselves here.

No, I am asking the Minister to come back now. Then we will dispose of the amendment that is before the committee.

There is no limit on Committee Stage. I want to make an important point.

I have given the Deputy an opportunity, just as I gave to Deputy O'Donovan. Now I am going to give the Minister an opportunity.

There is an important point I want to make.

The Deputy can make-----

First, I had intended to raise this under Schedule 1.

I will have to ask the Deputy to leave if he does not-----

Sorry, I have the right-----

I am asking-----

I do not mean any disrespect to the Chair.

-----the Minister to reply to the points that have been made.

I have the right to come in again.

We will let the Deputy in afterwards.

There is no limit to a Committee Stage debate.

Yes. The Deputy is not-----

That is fine, as long as the Chair says that I can get in again.

I genuinely do not want to disrupt this meeting, but I need to point out that the Chair has not responded to the point of order I raised. This discussion is relevant to the section. We have not come to the discussion on the section. We are dealing with an amendment.

Could the Chair respond to that point of order?

The Chair should put the amendment and then move onto the section.

Indeed. That is what should happen. I am not trying to cut across anyone. I am keen to help the discussion.

I have taken a very liberal stance with the Deputies.

I will allow the Minister to respond briefly before putting the amendment.

Chairman, I have outlined the rationale for this policy. If the best that Deputy Ó Cuív can do is come in and accuse me of being arrogant and speaking rubbish, then I would encourage him to engage with the substance of the argument I am putting forward as opposed to attempting to ridicule it.

I have outlined the policy rationale for this Bill and the reasons I believe it is the right approach. I have answered every question the Deputy has put to me. He may not have liked the answer, and if he had not been so eager to speak over me, he might have heard the answer I was outlining. If the best that Deputy Ó Cuív can do is to speak while I am speaking and describe the answer I have given as rubbish, I look forward to engaging with him when he has listened to what I have to say.

On his claim regarding the lack of support for the Bill, of course it is open to a local authority to pass a resolution on this matter, but let us bear in mind the local authority that will be making these decisions will be the same local authority that I am saying should have the ability to integrate the port or harbour into its own structures and powers.

The people in Galway elect the members of the local authority which should then be the structure within which the port is run. If a charge were to be made against me that I am attempting to override the views of local people or local communities, let me counter it by saying that I am seeking to entrust the administration and the running of the port into the broad community in which the port is located.

We will take the amendment.

We agreed that the amendment was being taken.

I did not agree.

Deputy Ó Cuív is not a substitute for Deputy Dooley. I have allowed the Deputy to speak and to make his contribution. I am now taking the amendment.

On a point of information, when we come to deal with Schedule 1, what actually happened?

We will not reach Schedule 1 at this meeting.

I had intended to have this debate on the schedule because I am seeking the deletion only of the reference to Galway. What happened, which will be a major surprise to my colleague to my right, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, is that I was listening to the television and I suddenly noticed that Deputy Kyne, my good colleague from Galway who I understand agrees with my position and does not agree with the Minister's position on this, had come in and raised this issue.

I allowed him to speak, as I have allowed Deputy Ó Cuív to speak.

I came down to the committee room at that stage. I had intended to contribute on the schedule.

The Deputy has explained that.

When Deputy Kyne contributed, I realised the committee would debate this issue and I wanted to contribute.

The Deputy wanted to mark him.

I wanted to back him up. It will come as a big surprise to my colleague from Limerick to find that his own colleague from Galway shares my view on this and that everything he said about me, presumably he will say about his colleague.

Through the Chair, I have no difficulty with Deputy Kyne's position, but what I have a difficulty with is people coming in and throwing around glib remarks and insulting others in a manner which does not do the Deputy or his party any good. He might reflect on his remarks and use the opportunity to apologise before he leaves, because he promised us he was leaving.

Further, may I put on record that I am fully in support of the development of the harbour in Foynes? As I pointed out earlier, it is further in distance from Galway Port than it is from Cork Harbour.

The Deputy has made that point already.

Nobody is saying that one should get rid of Cork Harbour.

We should return to the amendment. On amendment No. 2, the question is-----

We have not finished the discussion on the amendment. We had an intervention on a completely different matter. That is fine, but it should have been dealt with in the schedule.

Can the Deputy be brief?

The Minister rightly spoke of certain cases - I do not want to make a comment about the discussion about Foynes and Galway, except they are both best fitted to represent themselves.

By those in the west.

I am in favour of an integrated approach to the whole country. The Minister stated the purpose of the Bill is for integrated approaches and his hope is this is what the Bill will achieve. I absolutely agree with him, and this is why we welcomed the broad thrust of the Bill. For Dún Laoghaire, at least, we need that kind of integration. What has been missing in Dún Laoghaire is the integration between the activities and operations of the port company and the town and the wider hinterland and arguably the region. This is a step in the right direction but, it is the big but and is the reason we are saying that if we are going in this direction, the logical follow-on is to dissolve the harbour company and in the case of Dún Laoghaire go for the second option.

The harbour company has been in competition effectively with the town and is propelled by a competitive impulse, which is not helpful in achieving the integration that one wants. It is also being propelled by a competitive impulse to compete with Dublin Port, which is not helpful either. The two ports are now competing. If the Dún Laoghaire harbour company's proposal for this cruise berth succeeds, which I hope it does not, it will be competing with another public port for the same business. I have spoken to prominent economists, I will not mention their names but they are people we all know and are not left-wing economists-----

Go on, name them.

I will not. They think it is bananas that two ports within 5 km of each other are competing for the same businesses and are borrowing, very importantly in the case of Dún Laoghaire, using the assets of the harbour as collateral in a speculative venture where Dún Laoghaire will compete with Dublin. If one is talking about integration and an integrated policy, this is barmy beyond belief. It is a serious risk that could actually put the harbour under threat and could be a massive white elephant. Ultimately that decision will be in the hands of the Minister.

Will the Deputy draw his remarks to a conclusion?

I am urging the Minister to recognise that in this case, integration and having a holistic approach to the development of Dún Laoghaire is essential, both in terms of the port's relationship to the town and in the whole raison d'être of the harbour in the national ports policy of tier 1, tier 2 and so on which the Minister is setting out. The logical conclusion of that is option B, that we dissolve Dún Laoghaire harbour company.

Chairman, it is precisely because of the need for integration that I believe the appropriate location for Dún Laoghaire Harbour is in the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

In regard to the urging of Deputy Boyd Barrett on how that integration happens, I am well aware of his view on it. As I have said, it is a decision I will make and the due diligence process which will be a very important input is under way.

It is happening at present. It is my aim, assuming the Bill will be passed before Christmas, in the short aftermath to make decisions on how integration would happen for the ports of regional significance.

On a point of information, in the latest answer to a question in the council about the due diligence, the county manager has told us that the due diligence, which I agree badly needs to be done and I know was under way, has now stalled. There are apparently legal or commercial sensitivity obstacles to it continuing. I wish to alert the Minister to that. In a way that speaks of the problem we have. That problem has to be resolved both in the short term and in the long term. This business where we cannot really know what is going on in the harbour company has been a persistent issue. It is now even blocking the due diligence process.

The question to be put is whether amendment No. 2 be made. Is the amendment being pressed?

I will put it to a vote on Report Stage.

Is the Deputy withdrawing the amendment, then?

Do I need to withdraw it in order to reintroduce it on Report Stage?

The question is that the amendment be made.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 8 agreed to.

It is after 1.30 p.m. so we must adjourn. I thank the Minister for attending and I thank the members for their contributions.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The select sub-committee adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Thursday, 19 November 2015.
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