SECTION 15.

(1) The Minister shall, before registering any premises in the register of creameries, or the register of cream-separating stations, or the register of manufacturing exporters, or the register of butter factories, be satisfied that the conditions of cleanliness and order are complied with by such premises and that such premises comply with such other conditions for the registration of such premises as are specified in this Act or in any regulations made thereunder.
(2) Before registering any premises in the register of creameries the Minister shall be satisfied—
(a) that such premises are equipped with efficient plant and machinery of the description specified in the First Schedule to this Act, with such additions and variations (if any) as may be prescribed or as may in any particular case be required or approved of by the Minister, and
(b) if any regulation under this Act is for the time being in force requiring premises registered in the register of creameries to be equipped with plant for pasteurising milk or cream or both milk and cream, that the premises are duly equipped with such pasteurising plant as is required by such regulation, and
(c) that the creamery business carried on thereon is such that in the ordinary course of such business the quantity of butter produced on each day on which the business is so carried on exceeds fifty-six pounds in weight.
(3) Before registering any premises in the register of cream-separating stations the Minister shall be satisfied—
(a) that such premises are equipped with efficient plant and machinery of the description specified in the First Schedule to this Act, with such additions and variations (if any) as may be prescribed or as may in any particular case be required or approved of by the Minister, and
(b) if any regulation under this Act is for the time being in force requiring premises registered in the register of cream-separating stations to be equipped with plant for pasteurising milk or cream or both milk and cream, that the premises are duly equipped with such pasteurising plant as is required by such regulation, and
(c) that the cream-separating business carried on thereon is such that in the ordinary course of such business the quantity of cream separated from milk on each day on which the business is so carried on is sufficient for the manufacture of not less than twenty-eight pounds of butter.
(4) Before registering any premises in the register of manufacturing exporters the Minister shall be satisfied—
(a) that such premises are equipped with such plant machinery as may be prescribed or as may be prescribed or as may in any particular case be required or approved by the Minister, and
(b) if any regulation under this Act is for the time being in force requiring premises registered in the register of manufacturing exporters to be equipped with plant for pasteurising milk or cream or both milk and cream or both milk and cream, that the premises are duly equipped with such pasteurising plant as it required by such regulation, and
(c) that the manufacturing business carried on thereon is such that in the ordinary course of business the quantity of butter produced on each day on which the business is carried on exceeds fifty-six pounds in weight.
(5) Before registering any premises in the register of butter factories the Minister shall be satisfied—
(a) that such premises are equipped with efficient plant and machinery of the description specified in the Second Schedule to this Act, with such additions and variations (if any) as may be prescribed or as may in any particular case be required or approved of by the Minister, and
(b) that the manufacturing business carried on thereon is such that in the ordinary course of such business the quantity of butter produced on each day on which the business is so carried on exceeds fifty-six pounds in weight.
(6) The Minister shall before registering any premises in the register of non-manufacturing exporters be satisfied that—
(a) the premises are structurally suited for carrying on the business of examining and classifying butter for export and are sufficiently provided with equipment, fittings, and appliances suitable for that business, and
(b) the premises and the equipment, fittings, and appliances thereof are in a state of cleanliness and good repair, and
(c) the premises contain adequate and suitable accommodation for the carrying on, in accordance with the requirements of this Act and any regulations made there-under, of the business of examining and classifying butter for export, and
(d) the premises are properly equipped with the prescribed appliances and requisites for examining and classifying butter for export and for marking butter and the packages and wrappers (if any) in which it is packed for export, and
(e) the premises comply with such other conditions as shall be prescribed.

I beg to move Amendment 25:—In Section 15, sub-section (2), to delete all after the word " Act " in line 29 up to and including the word " Minister " in line 32, and to substitute therefor the words " together with a pasteurising plant if so prescribed under Section 30."

I submit that the powers prescribed in this sub-section are far too wide and general.

In one sense these additional powers are by way of conferring a benefit on the owner of a particular creamery. A man may not have the particular class of machinery provided for here in the Schedule and which was suggested in the Report of the Agricultural Commission. He may have something different. The Department may see, as a result of inspection, that he is turning out good butter, and may say to him that he can carry on. From that point of view it is useful to have the power to agree to additions and variations.

There is nothing, I suppose, to prevent the man from putting in improved machinery?

There is certain machinery set out in the First Schedule that he must have. He might have some alternative machinery that in certain circumstances we could ratify. Supposing a man were turning out good butter and that his equipment did not include everything prescribed, still after examination we might agree to register him. We hope that this Bill will be in operation for thirty or forty years. The machinery specified here may be out of date at the end of some years, and I suggest it would be absurd that the Legislature should be asked to pass a new Bill for the new inventions that come along in the meantime. For instance, a centrifugal separator is the one generally in use to-day, but it may not be in use in ten years' time. You cannot regulate trade by rigid regulations and you must have a certain amount of elasticity.

I am not at all satisfied. This sub-section, if passed in its present form, gives the Ministercarte blanche to order any machine that he pleases. The Minister might have some faddy expert in his Department who would recommend the introduction of some particular type of machine. The Minister will naturally be guided by the expert and down will come the edict imposing this additional expense on every private individual.

Supposing the Minister were to act as Senator Sir John Keane suggests on the advice of, as he says, a faddy expert the matter would certainly have to come before the consultative council. The council would certainly ask the reason for the installation of such machinery. There is that safeguard against anything like that happening.

I might as well speak very frankly on this subject. In my opinion there is the danger of undue influence being used to boost a particular machine, and you might quite easily get a strong body of opinion through manufacturers to influence a body like the consultative council, many of whom may be interested in the personal management of creameries. We should make perfectly certain to shut out influences of that kind.

If you had a majority on the consultative council such as Senator Sir John Keane suggests, I agree that this is no safeguard. But I suggest, if you can have any possible safeguards against influences of that sort it is in the consultative council which will be picked not from the machine-makers but from people like dairy farmers, breeders, creamery managers, etc. If, for instance, the consultative council decided that this machine should not go in and that the Minister over-ruled them, the matter could be raised in the Dáil and he would have to make his reasons abundantly clear for the action he had taken. If he over-ruled the council in such a matter as that, he would be putting himself in an extraordinarily difficult position.

I do not press the matter now, but I will raise it again on the Report Stage.

Amendment withdrawn.
Amendments 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and 31 withdrawn.

As regards amendment 32, which stands in my name, to Section 15, sub-section (6) which proposes to delete in line 30 the words " structurally suited " and to substitute therefor the words " constructed as prescribed," this is a matter which I propose to bring up on the Report Stage and I am withdrawing it for the moment.

Amendment withdrawn.

I beg to move Amendment 33 in Section 15, sub-section (6) to delete " all " after the word " and " in line 32 to the end of sub-paragraph (a).

This seems to me to be a most confusing sub-section. Sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) seem to cover the same ground. I think everything that is required could be done under sub-paragraph (e).

Sub-paragraph (e) is a realisation of the fact that we are not absolutely infallible.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment 34 not moved.