Special Committee Defence Bill, 1951 debate -
Thursday, 13 Mar 1952

SECTION 20.

Captain Cowan

I move amendment No. 23 :—

After paragraph (a) to add a new paragraph as follows :—

" (b) officers of the Permanent Defence Forces who have retired therefrom on pension and are under the age of 65 years."

The Chairman and a number of Deputies and myself have advocated in the past few years that officers of the permanent force who retire on pension after long service and who have considerable experience are very valuable persons and that their services should not be lost entirely to the State when they leave on pension. The object of the amendment is to enable such officers until they reach 65 to be eligible for service. That does not necessarily mean that they would be called out annually or even periodically but that the valuable experience they had gained over perhaps 30 years or more would be available if the State needed it. By this provision their services would be available until they reached 65.

Everyone will agree that a lot of the success during the last emergency was due to the experienced officers who were on the old reserve and who came back into the service and whose valuable experience was generously given. I would recommend to the Minister to accept the amendment.

Mr. Traynor

I have very great sympathy with the idea behind the amendment. If the Deputy is prepared to withdraw it, I will put it on record that I will deal with this matter. There would be some administrative difficulties. For instance, if these men go on reserve they would be liable to be called up and they would be entitled to their reserve grant if they were not called up. I have mentioned already that I am rather perturbed to find there is no reservoir from which the first line reserve is being fed and for that reason I would be prepared to suggest to the military authorities that the age in the reserve would be extended. We could not have it 65 years for the more junior officers and would have to graduate the scale to cover ages in between.

Captain Cowan

I am very pleased—and I am sure the Chairman will be also—with the Minister's reaction to the proposals. We have been advocating this for some time and it is good to know that it is under consideration. I know there are administrative difficulties but with goodwill there will be no trouble in smoothing them out. I do not think the Minister will have too much trouble regarding the age. I inserted the words " on pension " since once an officer reaches the stage in the permanent forces when he is entitled to a pension he is a very experienced officer, no matter what his rank may be. It would be valuable to have his services available while he is fit to give them. I am very pleased with the Minister's response.

Chairman

At this stage I should like to put a few points to the Minister. Firstly, it will probably be necessary for him to constitute a special class of reserve. You have two cases where officers retire. One would be where for some reason he might retire from the forces while still active, not being in a pensionable capacity. An officer of that class could be transferred to the ordinary reserve—the First Line. The class of officer we are talking about would be the officer who would be retired. I suggest we should have a retired list, which would be numbered in a class of the reserve.

There are a couple of other points. Firstly, with all respect to Deputy Cowan, I do not think his amendment would meet the case, as you would need to have voluntary service certainly in regard to officers who have gone out already. It would have to be optional as to whether they would go on that basis or not. Secondly, when they do come in on that basis they should not be expected to have any annual commitment. You are regarding them really as an administrative reserve. They would not be an active service reserve, but an experienced administrative reserve. As the Minister is considering the matter, I am taking this opportunity of putting these points to him. With regard to rank, it is immaterial what the rank of the officer is going out, even if he is a junior officer, though I think the Minister should again consider in this connection something I know he was considering when he was Minister before, namely, automatic promotion to the rank of commandant.

Lastly, there is the question of the rate of special pay for being on reserve. I understand that the reserve pays are broken up into categories now—a basic rate and so much for attendance, so much for training, and so on. Is that so now ?

Mr. Traynor

Yes, I think so.

Chairman

In the case of an officer out on pension who would not be expected to be active, a very special provision could easily be made. That is another argument for having this class of reserve ; in other words, to put it in the net, what you want is a retired list, recallable, a Third Line of Reserve.

Another point is that, in accordance with ministerial policy in the past under a number of Governments, and as the legal position is not completely defined, people in certain categories are debarred from being officers of the Defence Forces—for instance, members of either House of the Oireachtas and, I think, civil servants now. If civil servants are not positively debarred, at least the experience during the last emergency was such that it was necessary to be very careful. We had experience of civil servants who had obtained commissions and then were equally vital in their own administrative departments and they had to be exempt, with a certain loss to the State in a number of ways. There will be people in these categories who would not be available for the active elements of the Defence Forces but who, nevertheless, for specific purposes might be useful in a time of emergency. We could expand on that in detail for the Minister at another time and we could consider whether the statutory prohibitions should not be let up in regard to that particular class of Reserve.

Mr. Traynor

You mean in regard to membership of the Oireachtas ?

Chairman

Yes. I am merely making this suggestion to the Minister. I am wholeheartedly in agreement with what the Minister has in the Bill for the classes he has in the Bill, but, leaving out the Oireachtas for a moment, there might be a civil servant with particular experience and qualifications in a particular line and it would be desirable to have him commissioned for some reason or another. I could give the Minister instances of reasons that would operate. That man could be called on in any emergency and even to function in relation to the Army in times of near emergency. I am throwing that out for the Minister's consideration in connection with the proposals which he is obviously going to consider.

Mr. Traynor

That is the value of putting these views on record. These records are examined carefully—examined even more carefully than the discussion here is listened to, and it is on these that most of our actions are subsequently based. From what the Chairman said it appears to me—I suppose Deputy Cowan had it at the back of his mind—that, in the main, the officers he is thinking of will be acting more in an administrative capacity than otherwise and, as a result, will release younger officers for the more active work. There is, however, the point that we could have an over-plus of administrative men.

Chairman

It is unlikely to happen in times of emergency as our Forces are at the moment. During the last emergency it was the competent officers in the Reserve who largely took over companies but they were officers who had left the Forces and who were on Reserve but who had a good deal of experience of Army routine who immediately went into positions such as adjutants, and so forth. The whole records of Eastern Command were carried by a Reserve officer at the time. The colonel commanding the depot, his adjutant, the officer in charge of records and a few more were all Reserve officers, and from my own experience of mobilising as an adjutant under emergency conditions I can testify that it is very desirable to have people with previous experiences in these posts, and in base quartermaster jobs, too. It does release active Regular officers for work for which they are needed. I am very happy that the Minister has agreed to consider it. I realise that there are certain difficulties and I throw out the specific suggestion which could be approached on the basis of something like a Third Line Reserve and retired list in no way meant to be an active component of the Reserve in peace time.

Captain Cowan

The suggestion is put forward by the Chairman and myself and by other people interested for the purpose of ensuring that there is available to the Government in time of emergency the best and most experienced men in the country. I know that these people would consider it an honour to be asked to be on that reserve force and to be always available when the necessary necessity arose. As the Chairman and the Minister have said, they do release the young and active combatant officers from administrative positions, and these experienced men, in fact, do the administrative work much better. They are not like the young fellows who want to get out to a dance or who want to go here, there and everywhere. They can settle down and do a long day's work without any trouble and do it well. They are not concerned with wanting to be on active service here and there, but they want to do their job well, realising that it is an important job. Young people often think that administrative positions are not important, but the older experienced person knows the importance and the value of this work and does it perfectly well all the day.

Mr. Carter

I have every respect for old age and experience, but when an officer comes to 65 I think that, in times of emergency or on active service, even in an administrative capacity, he is not of much value to the Defence Force.

Chairman

That is the limit Captain Cowan has suggested—under 65. There is another idea which is allied to this and which might be tied into this class the Minister is talking about. One of the difficulties of a defence force in a country such as this is to have experts of sufficient experience and standing available for, say, engineering and kindred matters. There is the chemical and physical research end in respect of which information would be needed and for which an organisation might have to be built up quickly as in the case of the emergency ; there is the medical end, involving senior surgeons ; and there are transport experts—people who are every day running complex transport organisations—and possibly certain personnel in the Post Office. You will not, in the ordinary run of things, get such personnel to be active officers of the Reserve. Some of them may have been interested enough to join when relatively young and to be Reserve officers, but they will not have the time to be active First Line Reserve officers. The Minister in the past has found a difficulty in that regard, and he will continue to find it. The suggestion I make is that there should be provision for people in that category who would be willing to go into the Third Line Reserve and get certain instruction so as to be ready to be called on for co-ordination. A move was made in that direction and the Minister might consider integrating all these things into one body.

Mr. Traynor

That could be done even in present circumstances.

Chairman

Within the present framework, the Minister could create a category, but I am suggesting that, as he is doing the other thing, the whole lot might be tied up in one category.

Mr. Traynor

We will keep that mind.

Chairman

I know that the question will sometimes be asked: " Why do you want to do that ? Will you not get them in time of emergency and cannot you get their advice now ? " My only answer to that is that there is a certain glamour, if you like, and compliment in having a commission which will matter more than the financial remuneration, which would be a very secondary thing with these people. They would, in fact, be quite pleased to accept it on an honorary basis in most cases. The Minister, by having a commission granted to them, first secures a hold and, secondly, regularises communications. It is awkward for the Army, and especially for Army personnel, if, in dealing with military matters, they have to deal with people who have no official connection on the civil or military side. The granting of a commission makes it very simple to have a regularising of communications and the settling of responsibility on the person concerned.

Captain Cowan

It has the further value that if at any stage the Government decide that they must have a rapid recruiting campaign it is very necessary to have the old experienced retired officer to come in, because otherwise all the active young officers in the Defence Forces would be engaged in that particular job and would be taken away from their other work. Once the Minister has indicated to the Committee that he is going to consider this favourably there is no necessity to press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sections 20, 21 and 22 agreed to.