Special Committee Factories Bill, 1954 debate -
Thursday, 27 Jan 1955

SECTION 16.

Mr. Larkin

I move amendment No. 19:—

Before sub-section (2) to insert four new sub-sections as follows:—

(2) Where a piped water supply is in the factory all sanitary conveniences shall be individually flushed water closets, except urinals which shall have suitable flushing arrangements.

(3) Sanitary conveniences shall not communicate directly with the work place.

(4) There shall be provided at least one closet for every 25 male workers, and at least one closet for every 15 female workers employed at the same time; and there shall be separately provided at least one urinal for every 15 male workers employed at the same time.

(5) Sanitary conveniences shall be readily and easily accessible and shall not be situated more than one floor above or below the regular workplace of the workers for whom they are provided.

This amendment deals with the provision of sanitary conveniences and it is proposed that where a piped water supply is already available the sanitary conveniences shall be of the individually flushed type and that such sanitary conveniences shall not communicate directly with the workplace. It also provides certain minimum provisions in respect of the number of workers, both male and female. Finally, it is suggested that such sanitary conveniences shall be readily accessible and shall not be situated more than one floor above the place where the workers are working.

So far as the first provision is concerned, it seems to me that if there is a piped water supply there is no conceivably ready argument why there should not be flush water closets. Similarly, I think it is desirable that such conveniences should not directly communicate with workplaces from many points of view and, thirdly, I think it is the general experience of those who know something about existing sanitary conveniences, that it is desirable there should be some relationship between the number of conveniences provided and the number of workers. The situation or location of such conveniences is a matter needing consideration. One would naturally expect that they would be readily and easily accessible. It may be arguable that they should be located more than one floor above the workroom, but that is a minor point. The most important provision is the one relating to a piped water supply because that I regard as the only dependable means by which one can ensure that sanitary conveniences will be kept in a proper and a cleanly state.

Mr. Norton

The difficulty about this amendment is that it seeks to write into the Bill in a rather rigid way detail which might best be left, I think, in relation to the making of regulations under sub-section (2) of the section. I do not think rigidity has any particular attractions from the point of view of the object that the Deputy seeks to achieve. We can do all these things under regulations. We can do even more under regulations. If the Deputy has an assurance that these regulations will be designed to bring the provision of sanitary conveniences up-to-date, he might perhaps be agreeable to leaving the matter over. Existing regulations, in fact, go a long way towards meeting his suggestions. All that is necessary really is a review of the existing regulations in order to bring them up-to date where necessary. Apart from that, the four sub-sections which the Deputy wants to include in relation to the present sub-section (2) seem to me to show conflict of approach because sub-section (2) proceeds on the assumption that in these matters of sanitary conveniences it is desirable to have consultation with the Minister for Health. At the same time the Minister for Industry and Commerce has to go to the Minister for Health, but the sub-sections make certain things obligatory on him although consultation is provided for; what the consultation would be about, therefore, is not quite clear.

Mr. Larkin

The difficulty I always find in a case like this is that one has to advance one's argument against an individual Minister and he gives one certain assurances. Ministers come and go, but civil servants go on for ever and there is a great deal of difference in regard to the conception of a Minister in a problem like this and what finally comes out in regulations. Certain proposals in this amendment appear, to me at any rate, to be basic proposals if it is our intention to have proper sanitary conveniences at all ; I think they should be put in as a minimum and the Minister can, in consultation with the Minister for Health, if he feels that something over and above that minimum is required, make regulations accordingly. From my experience of the sanitary accommodation provided I think the more rigid we are in laying down a minimum the better it will be.

Mr. Lemass

The definition of sanitary conveniences in the definition section is very, very wide. I think it is actually a bit obsolete and needs reconsideration. I agree that where a piped water supply is available flush water closets should be prescribed. There should be freedom to provide the highest possible standard in the circumstances so far as practicable and I still think the proper procedure is to leave it to the Minister by giving him power to make regulations rather than attempt ourselves to define the regulations he should make. It may be possible to alter the phraseology of the section to put on the Minister the obligation of prescribing the highest standards practicable.

Mr. Larkin

The most essential proposal in the amendment is that in relation to the piped water supply and the utilisation of that supply to provide flush water closets. If that were put in as a minimum and the remainder were left to be provided for by way of regulation, I would personally feel a little happier. I can see no good argument whatever for exempting a factory from supplying flush water closets when a piped water supply is already available.

Mr. Norton

I agree that should be the first essential. Would it meet the situation if we accept in principle Nos. 2 and 3?

Mr. Larkin

Yes.

Mr. M. E. Dockrell

I am in complete agreement with much of what Deputy Larkin said and with the point made by Deputy Lemass. Supposing there is a piped water supply in the factory, but there are certain difficulties in relation to drainage, what then? Sanitary conveniences are not just a question of a piped water supply. There is also the question of drainage. It seems to me a piped water supply may not entirely cover the position.

Mr. Larkin

I agree, but I have no doubt the sanitary authorities would find a solution to that. I can think of half a dozen myself.

Mr. M. E. Dockrell

I would like to see such a provision, but I think the Minister would want to be given some power of amendment in connection with it.

Mr. Larkin

If a piped water supply is available and the question of the provision of sanitary conveniences arises, I imagine the local sanitary authorities will very quickly deal with the question of drainage.

Mr. M. E. Dockrell

It is not always just that simple. There are such things as levels and so forth.

Mr. Norton

Supposing we give the Deputy the amendment by accepting (2). Sub-section (3) in fact is the existing legislative position. Would you accept (2) in principle?

Mr. Lemass

Is that provided in the Public Health Acts?

Mr. Norton

Under regulations.

Chairman

May I take it the amendment is withdrawn on the Minister's assurance that he will have an amendment on the next stage?

Mr. Norton

I am accepting (2) and (3).

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section put and agreed to.