There is a reference in Section 17 to an occasion where an inspector finds any act of default as is referred to in sub-section (1). It says: "he may take with him into the factory a medical officer of health, a health inspector, or an officer of the sanitary authority," Are these matters prescribable under this Act or under the Public Health Act?
SECTION 17.
Question proposed: " That Section 17 stand part of the Bill."
Mr. Lemass
This sub-section continues the power of the factories inspector to bring to the notice of the sanitary authorities for action any faults he finds in relation to such things as sanitary conveniences, drains, water supplies and so forth.
Mr. Lemass
Would such a default if committed be committed under this Act or under the Public Health Act?
Look at Section 10 which puts the obligation on the factory owner to do certain things.
Mr. Lemass
Yes I see that. That is all right. May I take it now from sub-section (3) of this section that such regulations can be enforced by the sanitary authority and that any such persons as, say, persons working in a factory, can report to the sanitary authority and accordingly have the premises inspected?
That is the position.
Mr. Lemass
It seems to be the position here that the factory inspector can now move in and continue, where necessary, to take proceedings in lieu of the sanitary authority.
We have come up against something new here for the first time. It is in relation to the way proceedings may be taken. Under the existing Act certain powers lie with the factory inspector and with the chief inspector and it is my opinion that this principle is more desirable because we know very well in practice that where the Minister is described as the prosecutor, it is not in fact the Minister we speak of. It is, in effect the Department. In so far as the placing of responsibility on the chief inspector and on factory inspectors goes I should like to say that these people develop a particular interest and concern in these matters and would not be subject to the same pressure shall I say as might be exercised at departmental level. However, I shall raise this point later on in the House when the Bill is being discussed but I think it is worthy of comment at this stage. I think that principle of giving certain powers to the chief inspector should be retained.
Mr. Lemass
I think I was responsible for the policy decision aimed at eliminating the chief factory inspector from all this responsibility and getting away from the principle that the chief inspector had powers which he could exercise ex officio and for bringing into this Act the principles enshrined in all the Statutes in this country. The responsibility rests with the Minister and I think that that system is much preferable because the Minister, I think, should not be able to escape such responsibility by merely saying that the powers had been given to the chief factory inspector. The fact that the responsibilities rest with the Minister involves the right of questioning the Minister in the Dáil.
I think it is more in accordance with modern democratic principles that the responsibility for initiation of proceedings rests with the Minister. He is responsible to public opinion and to parliamentary control. If you want to maintain the present position I think you are maintaining what is nothing more than an illusion because though the factory inspector gets the complaint he has to report it to his superiors and even they do not decide on the matter without first consulting with the Chief State Solicitor. In such a case the initiation of proceedings would take a very long time.
Mr. Lemass
If a Deputy wanted to ask why a factory owner was not prosecuted he would not be satisfied with a reply from the Minister saying that the chief factory inspector decided not to prosecute. I think that in such cases the Minister should not be able to hide behind the inspector.
It is also desirable that he should try to remove the veil of secrecy that surrounds the factory inspector. When, for instance, a trade union makes a complaint they cannot get any information about what is being done to rectify the complaint or whether in fact there has been a prosecution. We should arrive at a situation where in any such case we would be in a position to address questions to the Minister.
Question put and agreed to.