I propose Deputy Barry Desmond as Chairman.
Election of Chairman
Election of Chairman.
I second that proposal.
Question: " That Deputy Barry Desmond be the chairman of the committee ", put and agreed to.
Deputy Barry Desmond took the Chair accordingly.
Notice of Amendments:
Next Meeting of Committee.
Chairman
Thank you for electing me as chairman. The second item on the agenda this morning is the date for receiving amendments; No. 3, is the date of the next meeting.
I propose Tuesday next at 7.30 p.m.
There are very few Members here. If you want to have the thing done properly, I suggest leaving it until 5th March.
Attorney General
If you put it off it would not get through the Dáil and Seanad and would not be through before Easter.
Chairman
What about Tuesday afternoon at 4.15 p.m.?
If it is Tuesday next it would be better at 7.30 rather than 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
I agree.
I am afraid there will not be very many here, because of the by-election.
Chairman
We would not have a lengthy Committee Stage.
You may be wrong there, too, Mr. Chairman. The difficulty is, as Deputy O'Malley says, the problem of the by-election. I did not think we would go into the by-election so soon. Apparently, word is out that we have to go sooner than we thought.
The date is fixed a good deal earlier than we had anticipated.
Attorney General
I would ask if members of the Committee would consider Tuesday. If we do not do that, we can put it off until after the by-elections and there will be delay. In fact, it will be after Easter before we get the legislation through. I raise this point because it seems to me that Tuesday would be early on in the by-election campaign and Deputies might not yet be assigned.
Deputies will be assigned as and from Tuesday.
Chairman
Surely there will be some members of the Committee if we need a quorum.
That is your responsibility.
Chairman
As Fianna Fáil spokesman for Justice, I presume he will be here. Irrespective of the by-elections we should make a major effort to deal with Committee Stage and, if possible, to receive amendments, say, by mid-day on Monday, if this is possible.
What is the hurry? The Attorney General has said that he wants this back into the Dáil as quickly as possible. Naturally, we all want to see legislation coming from this but if you want the thing properly done at this Committee then let us try to meet at times suitable to most members of the Committee. If you want to have it on next Tuesday, it is very likely that you will have one of our team here and maybe three or four of yours. If you want progress, you can make up for any lost time. You can have it back in the Dáil. I do not see what time limits the Easter holidays will put on you. There will be a very long session after Easter. Easter is in March and there is all May, June and July to get it back into the Dáil. So, there is no great haste. We all want to try to help. That is why we are here on the Committee. If this Committee were not working you would have no guarantee that you would get your place in the Dáil queue.
If this Committee had not been set up at our suggestion for this Bill you would not see the Committee Stage in the Dáil for three months. The Capital Gains Tax Bill will take weeks more. The Finance Bill is on this morning. We understand there are two more taxation measures to go through before Easter.
Attorney General
Would Thursday of this week be out of the question? What I have in mind is, would you have time to consider amendments, say, by tomorrow?
No, under no circumstances.
It would be a very short time.
Chairman
Why not Friday?
Our Ard-Fheis is on Friday. A lot of us have to prepare speeches, and so on for the Ard-Fheis. That is the difficulty there. Are we certain that we are going away on the by-election campaigns on Tuesday?
I am certain anyway and I am directing the thing. I am directing our campaign in the constituency. That gives us a bare two weeks for the by-election campaign.
Attorney General
I am anxious, and I think we all are, to try to get this Bill enacted as quickly as possible and this is really the problem. If we put it off now until after the by-election, then we are getting well into March. I personally will have difficulties in March. I will be in Strasbourg in the middle of March. I do see this Bill being delayed a couple of months if we do not take Committee Stage on Tuesday.
I see the problem all right.
You will agree, Attorney General, that if it had not come to this Committee, Committee Stage would not be started before April, at the earliest.
Attorney General
That is as may be. I do not know. It could well have been that Committee Stage would have been taken next week but it is here now and it is just a question of when we take it.
I would put it to Deputy O'Malley that this Committee on this Bill could be the forerunner of similar committees to speed up legislation going through the House so that a greater volume of legislation can be disposed of at greater speed and there would be more thorough investigation of the legislation going through. If this is to be a forerunner of committees on Bills, we should try to get agreement on this Bill. I am sure that committees can be worked well. Deputy Collins is director of elections and I appreciate his position. Your other members may be in a position to come on Tuesday.
It looks as if we are being instructed to leave the precincts of Leinster House as of Tuesday by our commander-in-chief.
In fairness, I can see that this raises no difficulty for you in that one of the constituents of your party is not involved and you will have time on your hands. You must remember that there are two by-elections and a bare two weeks left for the campaign.
Chairman
If the Dáil were meeting what would happen?
It is a by-election. Does the winning of seats govern the running of the House? Of course it does.
So far as a by-election governing the running of this House is concerned, we had the spectacle of the last one, which was in Cork, in November, and for three weeks before this House did absolutely nothing but Estimates.
No business brought on by the Whip.
Chairman
Let us concentrate our minds on fixing the date of the next meeting. To suggest that we should do nothing because there are a couple of by-elections being decided is creating a situation. May I suggest, for example, next Monday afternoon? Is that too early?
There are places in Ireland, Mr. Chairman, outside of Dublin and that may be news to you and a few others. Ireland does not end in Clondalkin.
Chairman
Would it be possible to be back in Galway on Friday afternoon? You are paid expenses to come back to this Committee. Let us fix a date quickly.
The question of expenses does not enter into it one way or the other. The simple reason is that time is very limited. It is difficult. We want to get this Committee going, naturally. We want to get progress made but we want to do it in the fairest possible way. I see no difference whatsoever as to whether or not this will be legislation before Easter or after Easter. The important thing is that we have the will and the way to get it through as legislation as quickly as possible. If the Attorney General had a problem this morning on behalf of the Fine Gael Party or the Labour Party, we, too, naturally, will say that we are not going to have votes over little things like that; we will go along with you in the hope that co-operation would develop and exist.
Chairman
We are faced with the situation that the by-election is on March 4th, the counting of the votes will be on the 5th. Deputy Collins presumably and the other members of the Fianna Fáil Party will be down in Galway on that day. That leaves Thursday, 6th, and we are running into the end of another parliamentary week.
If it helps you, I would forego the count and come back for Thursday, 6th.
Attorney General
We are in this difficulty, if I could just explain it: if we put it back until after the by-election it would be Thursday, 6th, perhaps, that the Committee should meet. Supposing it finished its work on that date, then it would be reporting to the Dáil on the following week and the following week is the week that I am going to have to go to Strasbourg and I would like to be here for Report Stage.
Naturally.
Attorney General
It may well be that I would not be back until the following week—it is the final session of the Strasbourg case. So that it looks then that if this happens, we cannot get it back on Report in the Dáil until after Easter. I just raise the point that by postponing it until after the by-election I think you are postponing the implementation of the Bill for a couple of months. I would ask Deputies if they would consider seeing their way to sitting next Tuesday.
Chairman
Tuesday morning, and go off to Galway on Tuesday afternoon if you wish. Tuesday morning at 11 a.m.?
There is another point there. Your Government meeting will be on Tuesday morning. In addition, the front bench meeting of Fianna Fáil will also be on. There is a difficulty there. Our leader likes all members to be present at his front bench meeting. That is the difficulty we would have.
I take it you would all be in the House. Deputy Brosnan and the rest of you would be in the House at your front bench meeting.
Chairman
Two o'clock on Tuesday?
I have to go to Galway. I am expecting to go down tomorrow evening.
Chairman
Could we not agree to meeting at 2 o'clock sharp on Tuesday? I am quite certain that Committee Stage would not take too long.
As to your certainty about the speed, success or expedition of Committee Stage, you seem to think it will only take an hour. It might take considerably more. In fairness to the spokesman on Justice in the Fianna Fáil Party, he did not, probably, have an opportunity of considering amendments. I do not think Committee Stage will be dealt with in the space of an hour—two hours, possibly. I do not know.
Maybe a day. We do not know.
Chairman
We are at an impasse.
Attorney General
As I say, I am anxious if we could possibly take it on Tuesday. Could I suggest that we fix Tuesday evening at 7.30 p.m. and that when you have had an opportunity of seeing what amendments you want to put in you would then be in a position to see whether or not all your spokesmen will have to be present for the purpose of these amendments and if, in fact, we met on Tuesday and it is put by whoever spokesmen are here that you would wish it to be adjourned until a further date, we could consider adjourning it until a further date? It may be possible that when you examine the Bill you might decide that you could work it on Tuesday.
Could we meet in Galway on Wednesday or Thursday?
We will meet on Tuesday at 2 o'clock and see how we get on provided that we are allowed to put in late amendments. There would have to be an undertaking to that effect.
Chairman
I would be quite prepared to accept anything up to 12 o'clock on Tuesday.
No. After Committee Stage has started, provided we are still allowed to put in amendments.
Attorney General
That is fair enough because it may well be that we might be in a position to deal with the amendments. If we are not in a position, then we would have to adjourn.
Chairman
We do appreciate that according to Standing Orders we take the Bill section by section. If you hand in the amendments half an hour before the section is taken, that is enough. We will meet on Tuesday at 2 o'clock.
Attorney General
Could we fix a normal time for amendments?
Chairman
Could we fix the normal time for the first batch of amendments? Could we fix some kind of normal time for amendments on the clear understanding that we can take late amendments?
What do you suggest?
Chairman
Give the Attorney General an opportunity to respond to possible amendments. Would it be possible for the Attorney General to deal with amendments say up to 5 o'clock on Friday?
What week?
Attorney General
If you could have them in by Monday mid-day.
The following Monday.
Attorney General
Yes. This is on the understanding that if you have further ones they could be taken.
We will have enough to provide discussion for the first meeting.
Attorney General
That is fair enough.
The Committee adjourned at 11.22 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 18th February, 1975.