Special Committee Legal Practitioners (Qualification) Bill, 1928 debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 1928

SECTION 5.

(1) No person shall be admitted as a solicitor by the Chief Justice under Section 31 of the Solicitors (Ireland) Act, 1898, unless before such admission the Chief Justice is satisfied that such person possesses a competent knowledge of the Irish language.

(2) For the purpose of being satisfied that a person possesses such knowledge of the Irish language as is required by this section, the Chief justice at his discretion may either accept as conclusive the certificate obtained by such person from the Incorporated Law Society of his having passed a final examination or may require such person to give such further or other evidence of his knowledge of the Irish language as the Chief Justice shall prescribe.

Deputy DERRIG

I move amendment 20:—

Section 5, sub-section (1), line 46, to delete the words " is satisfied " and to substitute therefor the word " certifies."

I am not familiar with the procedure by which the Chief Justice admits persons to be solicitors, but the words " is satisfied " could, I think, be improved upon. I notice that Deputy Wolfe also thinks the section could be worded in a different way. I suggest the substitution of the word " certifies," though I do not think it is a great improvement on the present wording.

Deputy WOLFE

Would the Deputy read the next amendment?

CHAIRMAN

The amendment raises another question. I think we had better deal with Deputy Derrig's amendment first.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

How could the Chief Justice certify to himself?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Deputy WOLFE

I move amendment 21:—

Section 5 (1), line 46, to delete the words " the Chief Justice is satisfied " and substitute therefor the words " The Incorporated Law Society certifies to the Chief Justice."

I suggest that the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland have done nothing for which they should be treated as outcasts, and regarded as unfit to conduct legal education in this country, so far as their own profession is concerned. You not merely take that right from them, but you establish a Soviet form of government, by which you hand over to the Chief Justice the sole control of a profession, and give him power that no man ever had in any part of the world. That is what you have done. There was never such a suggestion made before. I suggest that that provision should go and, if you give the Incorporated Law Society the education and instruction in Irish for solicitors' apprentices, they should be trusted to give an honest certificate as a result of the examination.

Deputy LITTLE

If the Chief Justice takes up the examination papers and looks at the results, he might be perfectly satisfied.

Deputy WOLFE

There would be two examinations. The second one is to be a sort of revising-barrister affair.

MINISTER for FINANCE

I think if the Incorporated Law Society set out wholeheartedly to give effect to the intentions of the Act, there would be no need for the Chief Justice to require anything further than the certificate of the Incorporated Law Society. It may be found that the Incorporated Law Society will exact such a standard of proficiency at their examinations that there will be no need to have any further test than theirs. But the fact that the Incorporated Law Society has reacted to this Bill by suggesting that Irish should be a subject at the Preliminary Examination but not at the other examinations indicates to me that the Council of the Incorporated Law Society does not yet understand what is required to meet the position in the future, and does not appreciate the national policy in regard to the language. The Council of the Incorporated Law Society is, after all, a committee, and a committee in which you have not individual responsibility felt to the same extent as it would be felt in the case of a judge, who would would know that he might be subject to very strong criticism, if he could not be actually called to account for any of his actions. If you left it to the Council of the Incorporated Law Society, in the state of mind in which they are at present, or in which they are likely to be for some little time to come, you would find that fairly easy examinations would be held, and that the Society would be extremely easily satisfied on the question of the Irish language. The old-fashioned members of the Council, if I may say so, would, no doubt, feel very strongly that a man must be properly qualified in the legal subjects before being given a certificate, but I think a great many of them would equally feel that the question of Irish was of no real importance, that it was something that had been foisted upon them, and that they need not trouble too much about it. I think the result would be that if there were not somebody, at any rate in the first years of the test, brought in besides the Incorporated Law Society, there would be a grave danger that the examinations would be, to a large extent, farcical. I believe that if the scheme were in operation for, say, ten years, if the standard were set, and if the number of what I might describe as " old-fashioned " members of the Council were smaller than it is at present, you could leave the matter entirely to the Incorporated Law Society, but I would not like to do that now.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

I desire absolutely and completely to disagree with the Minister. The Incorporated Law Society has been charged with the control of legal education and the admission of solicitors for many years. The suggestion of the Minister really is that they will not only act against the spirit of the Act, but against the letter of the Act. I do not believe they will do that or that they would do it. I think it is only fair to give even the Incorporated Law Society a chance. The Incorporated Society has not been known to abuse its powers. Their traditions, like the traditions of the courts, tend to the support of the law. Having tied their hands by the definition of " competent knowledge," which we have incorporated in the Bill, we should not say to them, " We will not allow you to examine," and hand the responsibility over to the Chief Justice. We do not know who the Chief Justice may be next year or, as the Minister said, in ten years' time. It may be that we should endeavour to bring in some person who would be responsible to the House. I do not see how we could bring in the Minister for Education or the Attorney-General. Having incorporated our definition of " competent knowledge " in the Bill. I suggest that in all decency we must continue to accept what has been accepted for years in this country—that the Incorporated Law Society will carry out the law, not only in the spirit, but in the letter.

Deputy MATHEWS

I think the section as it stands is a slur on, and an insult to, the Council of the Incorporated Law Society, who are responsible for the examination of persons seeking admission as solicitors. You tell them that you trust them with the legal education of apprentices and with the judgment of their other qualifications, but you do not trust them to carry out the provisions of this Bill. That is what it comes to.

Deputy LITTLE

I think there is great inconsistency in that, because if you have established the Chief Justice as the authority to decide this question for the barristers, why should you not also establish him as the authority for the solicitors? After all, if this is a slur—it has not really been suggested that it is—on the solicitors, it is also a slur on the Benchers.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

There is a reason for doing that in the case of the Benchers.

Deputy LITTLE

It is not inconsistent. The fact that the Chief Justice is established as the authority for the barristers removes any suggestion of a slur in the case of the solicitors. The arrangement means that you are going to have a uniform standard of Irish for both professions. If it were otherwise, there might be disparity in the standards. I do not see that any slur is cast on the Incorporated Law Society.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

The reason this is done in the case of the Bar is because the Benchers would not hold an examination in Irish. A further argument why we should leave this matter to the Council of the Incorporated Law Society is that they have not refused. They have actually offered to come here in person and say that they will carry out the spirit of the Act. The Benchers of the Honourable Society of King's Inns refused to hold an examination in Irish. They do not examine in Irish.

MINISTER for FINANCE

They have Irish on the programme.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

What I have stated is what is behind the reference to the Chief Justice in the case of the barristers. Probably the Benchers examine in Irish for the Preliminary Examination, but they would not examine in Irish for the Final Examination.

MINISTER for FINANCE

They examine in Irish for the preliminary, and the Law Society does the same for the solicitors.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

Just as they examine in Latin or any other subject.

MINISTER for FINANCE

There is no difference between the two bodies in that respect.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

There is. The Incorporated Law Society is prepared to take responsibility for this examination and the other Society is not. It has absolutely refused to take responsibility. The Incorporated Law Society is prepared to accept responsibility, and I think we should put the responsibility upon them.

CHAIRMAN

I think the whole matter is merely a question of words, because in sub-section (2) you are providing that the Chief Justice may, at his discretion, take the certificate of the Incorporated Law Society.

MINISTER for FINANCE

Without casting any doubt on the Incorporated Law Society's intention to carry out the letter of the Act, everybody knows that on this question of the standard of Irish there is room for great divergence of opinion. Taking a given man with a given knowledge of Irish, there would be room for a great divergence of opinion as to whether he did or did not comply with this particular section. I might admit that this man had a sufficient knowledge of Irish to conduct properly the business of his client in that language, but it might not be admitted by another member of this Committee that he had that knowledge. If you had a definitely lower standard accepted for the solicitors' profession than for the barristers, it would be a very unfortunate thing.

Deputy WOLFE

Nobody suggested that.

MINISTER for FINANCE

No, but you could very well have that.

Deputy WOLFE

I think the Minister said that this Bill should be presented in a spirit of goodwill. If any success is to come of it, it must be presented to the Incorporated Law Society in a spirit of goodwill. If this section is carried now, you present the Bill to the Incorporated Law Society with a gun in your hand and you say: " You are a gang of highwaymen; we cannot trust you; we are going to treat you as highwaymen; we will take from you the education of your own apprentices and your own students, because you are unfit to continue to carry out your statutory duty." If you send me back with that message to the Incorporated Law Society, I will take it to them. I think it is better to talk openly and plainly here. The passing of Section 5 would have no other meaning, and can have no other meaning than I indicated. The Minister referred to some members of the Incorporated Law Society as being " old-fashioned."

MINISTER for FINANCE

In this matter.

Deputy WOLFE

I know the Minister does not intend to be in any way insulting. That would be the last thing that anybody who knows the Minister would expect him to be. I know exactly what the Minister does mean, and I do not take it as in any way insulting. The old-fashioned element of the Incorporated Law Society has disappeared. You would not find 30 per cent. of what the Minister and I would regard as the " old-fashioned element " there at present.

MINISTER for FINANCE

I know some members of the Council who are fairly frequently on platforms denouncing compulsory Irish in the schools and all that sort of thing. There is certainly one member of the Council who is frequently on that platform.

Deputy LITTLE

Is Deputy Wolfe adverting to sub-section (2)?

Deputy WOLFE

If you are going to present the pistol at them, do it.

Deputy LITTLE

I would like to ask Deputy Wolfe whether he has adverted to the words in sub-section (2). The Chief Justice, at his discretion, may either accept as conclusive the certificate obtained from the Incorporated Law Society or he may not. He has the option of doing that.

Deputy WOLFE

There is the suggestion of suspicion there again. We say " Here is the gun."

Deputy LITTLE

I think that is straining the section.

Deputy CONLON

There may be guns on both sides. There may be the suggestion that this will not be met in the proper spirit.

Deputy WOLFE

They are going to meet you in the proper spirit.

Deputy CONLON

The Council is elected once a year, but only a small proportion of the solicitors of Ireland are members of the Incorporated Law Society. We are passing a Bill which will refer to the whole profession. Under the Solicitors Act, I understand the Chief Justice has certain powers. Therefore, we are not introducing any new principle. The Chief Justice has certain powers already with regard to the admission of solicitors. As well as I remember, there is a section in that Act which gives the Chief Justice power to refuse to admit under certain conditions—I do not know whether he has to show cause or not. This is really carrying out the same principle. I think it is absolutely essential that we should allow this section to stand, and I do not see why the Incorporated Law Society should take offence at the clause. The Chief Justice may eventually be satisfied with the certificate from the Incorporated Law Society, but he has got to be satisfied. If the Incorporated Law Society meets this Bill in the spirit in which we hope they will meet it, there is no doubt that the certificate of the Incorporated Law Society will be accepted by the Chief Justice. But I am not altogether satisfied that the Bill will be met in the vigorous spirit that is suggested. If they really intend to be genuine with regard to the terms of the Bill, I do not think they will be in any way dissatisfied with that particular section. I do not see what offence can be offered by putting that clause in stating that the Chief Justice is to be satisfied. I do not see any reason why it should not be put in. I am, in fact, more convinced than ever that it is necessary it should remain in.

Deputy MATHEWS

The solicitors profession is a very large profession. The solicitors throughout Ireland have elected the Council of the Incorporated Law Society and they should express in a fair way the feeling of the people on this question. If the people are in earnest on this question, their feeling will penetrate to the Committee of the Incorporated Law Society. When they are entrusted with the examination as to legal knowledge, they should not be insulted by doubting them on this question.

Deputy CONLON

I did not mean any insult.

Deputy MATHEWS

I do not think you could describe it in any other way.

Deputy LITTLE

I think the solicitors as a body are much more commonsense than we are assuming. I do not think they are quite so sensitive to insults.

Deputy MATHEWS

Have not the solicitors as a body the selection of the Council?

Deputy LITTLE

You are asking me a very difficult question.

Deputy WOLFE

I am afraid the average member of the Incorporated Law Society will take this as an insult.

Deputy MATHEWS

I regard the matter as an outsider.

Deputy WOLFE

All I want to do is to create a spirit of goodwill, which the Minister suggested should be done. I said I would do that, and when I promise a thing I do my best to carry it out.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

I think we should look upon the matter in this way—that the Council of the Incorporated Law Society will carry out an Act of the Oireachtas. That is why I support the proposal that they should be the certifying body. If at any time it is suggested that they are not carrying out the Act, the Oireachtas is still there to deal with the matter.

MINISTER for FINANCE

The five years will have gone by.

CHAIRMAN

Looking at this matter from an altogether unprejudiced point of view, I think what will happen in actual fact will be that the Incorporated Law Society will certify, and that their certificate will be accepted by the Chief Justice in the ordinary way. In actual practice, there will not be any insult to the Incorporated Law Society.

MINISTER for FINANCE

And this arrangement ensures that you will have the barristers' standard.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

I would like to know from the Chairman of this Committee what he would think if we were to introduce a definition section in a Bill saying what we thought a competent knowledge of classics was. I would like to know what the Universities would think of it.

CHAIRMAN

I do not see where the analogy comes in.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

I am talking of the Bill itself. Deputy Hennessy's opposition was not founded upon objection to the Irish language, but upon the interference of the legislature with independent bodies—with the bodies responsible for professional education.

MINISTER for FINANCE

The exceptional circumstances make it necessary, and also the lack of responsiveness on the part of these bodies to changed conditions.

CHAIRMAN

I should like to point out that the Incorporated Law Society and bodies like that occupy in this country a peculiarly privileged position which they do not occupy in any other country.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

So do the Universities.

CHAIRMAN

No. Many of us think that instead of leaving these examinations to the Incorporated Law Society and the Benchers of King's Inns, they should be State examinations. A good many people, including lawyers, hold that opinion.

Deputy LITTLE

Deputy O'Sullivan in his defence of the solicitors profession, is, I think, casting a slur on his own profession, because he is placing it in a very invidious position.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

I gave you the reason.

Deputy LITTLE

The " slur " remains on the barristers profession, if it is a " slur." I think it is better to deal out the law impartially to both branches of the profession.

Deputy WOLFE

The Incorporated Law Society is kept under this cloud of suspicion. We adopt an impossible attitude and say to them " Yes, go on with your examinations if you like, but we do not trust you." Why not take the right away from them and let the Chief Justice or somebody else carry out the examination in Irish? It would be better to get somebody else to do it than to say to the Incorporated Law Society, " We do not believe a word you say."

MINISTER for FINANCE

This is the one authority that decides, with the help of experts, a standard for both branches of the legal profession. If the candidates under the Incorporated Law Society passed examinations up to this standard, then I presume there would be no other examinations, the certificate of the Incorporated Law Society would be accepted and the position would be exactly as at present. If, on the other hand, the Council of the Incorporated Law Society thought that its own legal subjects were too numerous at the Final, and that the final examination in Irish should on that account be very easy, then this would mean that the students would be expected to do a year or eighteen months in the study of Irish, and there would have to be another examination.

Deputy WOLFE

That would be better for Irish?

MINISTER for FINANCE

That is if the Council of the Incorporated Law Society decided that the mass of subjects was so great that they would have to make their examination in Irish very easy.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

You are saying that the Incorporated Law Society will not carry out an Act of the Oireachtas.

Deputy CONLON

We have heard Deputy Wolfe state the subjects are so numerous.

MINISTER for FINANCE

I was arguing that the Bill being as it is there is no obligation on the Incorporated Law Society to require this competent knowledge of Irish.

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

There is.

MINISTER for FINANCE

Where?

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

" No person shall be admitted as a solicitor," etc.

MINISTER for FINANCE

There is no obligation in the Bill to require any competent standard. Section 4 deals with the Incorporated Law Society. There is nothing about a competent knowledge there.

Deputy CONLON

There is nothing about a competent knowledge except so far as the Chief Justice is concerned.

Deputy WOLFE

There is. " No person shall be admitted by the Chief Justice."

Deputy O'SULLIVAN

" Unless the Chief Justice is satisfied that such person possesses a competent knowledge of the Irish language."

MINISTER for FINANCE

This has nothing to do with competent knowledge. I was arguing on the position of insult and so forth. The Bill, as it stands, only requires that the Incorporated Law Society shall hold examinations in the Irish language. The amount of Irish the Incorporated Law Society will require is really a matter for themselves. If it makes the standard low it means that after passing examinations students will spend another year getting a sufficient knowledge of Irish to satisfy the Chief Justice. If the Incorporated Law Society says it will have a standard of what the Chief Justice considers necessary both for a solicitor and a barrister, it can do so. In those circumstances its certificate would be accepted by the Chief Justice. I cannot see that there is really any insult.

Deputy MATHEWS

If the Incorporated Law Society certifies to the Chief Justice that such persons possess a competent knowledge of Irish, are they to give a false certificate?

Deputy FAHY

Who is to be the judge, and what is the standard?

MINISTER for FINANCE

You cannot have a common standard in that case.

Deputy FAHY

You want a uniform standard.

Deputy WOLFE

Your examiner may be a man who knows nothing about the Irish language. Who is the judge of their knowledge of law.

Deputy FAHY

They are examined.

Deputy WOLFE

The examiners will in future be the judges. You suggest that they are going to do things corruptly.

Deputy FAHY

I want a uniform standard for both branches of the legal profession. Deputy Wolfe asked for plain speaking. I like a little plain speaking, though perhaps not too much of it. It was with some misgivings some of us went from 18 down to 15 in order to meet in a friendly spirit the Incorporated Law Society. When we come to another clause, a pistol is held up. We must meet you in a friendly spirit. We have gone from 18 to 15. I fail to see any insult in letting the same authority judge the standard in order to secure uniformity.

CHAIRMAN

I think we have debated the subject long enough, and I do not think there is anything to be gained by any further debate or that there is any likelihood of any accommodation. I will put amendment 21 in Deputy Wolfe's name.

Amendment put, and declared lost.

Amendment 22 withdrawn.

CHAIRMAN

Amendment 23 is consequential on 21.

Question—" That Section 5 stand part of the Bill "—put, and declared carried.

Deputy LITTLE

You would have to change the date in the Short Title.

MINISTER for FINANCE

There is some power in the Standing Orders to alter that.

Question—" That the Title stand part of the Bill "—put, and agreed to.

CHAIRMAN

The Committee must agree to the report to be presented to the Dáil. The report will take this form: " Special Committee on the Legal Practitioners (Qualification) Bill, 1928. The Special Committee has gone through the Bill and has made amendments therein. The Bill, as amended, is reported to the Dáil."

Agreed.

The Committee adjourned at 8.40 p.m.