Amendments 14, 15, 16 and 17 all cover Section 4. Amendments 14 and 16 are out of order. The same effect can be got by voting and speaking against the sub-section. Amendments 15 and 17 cover the same point. Amendment 17 follows necessarily on amendment 15, so that we can confine our discussion to amendment 15.
SECTION 4.
(1) The subjects prescribed by regulations made by the Incorporated Law Society under Section 8 of the Solicitors (Ireland) Act, 1898, as amended by the Solicitors (Ireland) Act, 1898 (Amendment) Act, 1923 (No. 10 of 1923), for every examination held by them under the said Section 8 as so amended shall include the Irish language as a compulsory subject, and the Incorporated Law Society may by such regulations prescribe the mode of conducting every such examination in the subject of the Irish language.
(2) Every person who becomes a candidate at any examination held by the Incorporated Law Society under Section 8 of the Solicitors (Ireland) Act, 1898, as amended as aforesaid, shall be required to pass in the subject of the Irish language as prescribed by regulations made by the said society under the said Section 8, as so amended and as extended by this section and in the manner so prescribed, and no such person shall, unless he so passes in such subject, be qualified to receive the certificate appropriate to such examination given by the said society to candidates who have been successful thereat.
Deputy WOLFE
I move:—
Section 4 (1), lines 28 and 32, to insert before the word " examination " the word " preliminary."
Section 4 (1) and 4 (2) cannot stand as they are. Before being admitted a person must pass three examinations. I agree that the first and second are not very difficult, but the third is difficult. To suggest that anybody who is going for his final examination in law, and, having passed the examination in Irish in the Preliminary and Intermediate, has again to be examined in his final examination in Irish also, will greatly weaken his legal qualifications. You could confine it to the Preliminary, so that before a man embarks on a legal course he must first conclude his Irish course. At present, a person must take Latin or French, but he has only to take it at his Preliminary. It takes a person fully five years to learn his trade. People who know more about it than I do have reduced the period to four years, but if you add to that the suggestion that those four years are to be interrupted by the study of Irish, or even of Latin or French, you will not turn out lawyers in this country. I think that four years is too short a period. I have taken a great interest in legal education, and my complaint is that legal examinations are not complete or exhaustive. You will make it impossible for the Incorporated Law Society to carry on if you require a person to go through three examinations in Irish, whereas you have only one in Latin and French. Suppose, in the case of a man going to be a doctor, you tell him in the middle of his studies to go and pass an examination in Irish, you will have nice doctors surely.
If a person is for four or five years studying law, and has devoted no attention to the Irish language, he is likely to become rusty. It will require very little study for him to keep up to the standard that he would likely have at the beginning in Irish. He should keep up the spirit of the language while studying law, and he could, for instance, go on his holidays to the Irish-speaking districts, thus helping himself to keep up a proper standard. If the time had arrived when the whole examination could be held through the medium of Irish, we might not discuss this, but until that time comes I think we should require students during their legal studies to keep up, at least, the standard of Irish which they have when they start such studies.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
Does not the phrase " competent knowledge " cover that?
MINISTER for FINANCE
I do not think so, because " competent knowledge " only comes under Section 5. The position here is that if you make Irish a subject for the Preliminary Examination only you have got to make it a very stiff one, if you do not want the students to be held up when they are otherwise qualified. There is a difference between the Bar and the solicitors profession in this respect. There are statutes governing the proceedings of the Incorporated Law Society, and it is easy to amend their regulations. The Benchers, however, do not act under statute, and you might have to make a complete code to cover that, so that they should have Irish at all their examinations. A great many people study for the Bar without any intention of practising, whereas those who enter on the solicitors profession do so with the intention of practising. Therefore, it is not only more easy but more important to legislate in regard to Irish for the solicitors profession. If you depend only on the Chief Justice, in the end you are liable to have people who have got no Irish worth speaking of held up at a point when they are legally qualified. If they have to be held up for two or three years before they are enrolled, a great deal more hardship will be caused to them. It is desirable that they should have a certain knowledge of Irish before they become apprentices. It seems to me that the proper thing to do is to take a reasonably high standard for the Preliminary, something higher for the Intermediate, and still higher for the Final. If a person starts with a fairly good groundwork of Irish, when he enters as an apprentice, a comparatively small amount of study during his years of apprenticeship will bring him up to the standard required. I think it is the best thing in the interests of the candidates themselves that they should pass all these examinations.
At the beginning, the apprentice would have a fair knowledge of Irish. As he progresses in his legal studies, he would get a knowledge of the technical phrases in law. He might, for instance, be asked in his examination to draft a deed in Irish in order to show that he has not only an ordinary knowledge of Irish, but also a knowledge of the legal phrases in Irish.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
I agree with Deputy Little that it is desirable that an apprentice should have a knowledge of Irish. The point of the Minister for Finance is that the apprentice has the groundwork and is not asked to have the necessary competent knowledge until he is called. I think it is desirable that the standard should be much higher.
Deputy WOLFE
I may be an extraordinarily stupid person, but I know that it took me all my time to read the bare subjects for examination. It took me up to thirteen hours a day to read for my Final, and it was a question of either going to my grave or getting my Final. If, on top of my legal subjects, Irish was thrown in, I would have chucked the whole thing.
That would be the case only if you started without a knowledge of Irish.
Deputy WOLFE
Are you going to see that a man is qualified in Irish first and afterwards see that he is qualified in law? If a man is to get first place, let him get there because he has a knowledge of law.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
I would be prepared to propose an amendment that would save the Incorporated Law Society and which would make Irish a subject which would count as one of the professional subjects.
MINISTER for FINANCE
I do not think that there is anything in the Bill that suggests that.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
I have in mind a prize such as the Findlater Scholarship.
Deputy WOLFE
In future that will go to the man with the best knowledge of Irish but not of law.
No.
MINISTER for FINANCE
If there are two men equal, the man with the better knowledge of Irish should get it.
I would like to see a student tested in his knowledge of technical legal terms in Irish when he comes to the end of the period.
Deputy WOLFE
If you do not carry this amendment, you will kill legal education in the country. You should separate these tests, but if you are going to intermix examinations in Irish with the Final Examination in Law I am done with it.
Irish is not so difficult a subject as all that.
Deputy WOLFE
Do it separately. My view is to make the Final Examination in law stiffer than it is at present. I had three apprentices whom I educated, and each of them won the Findlater Scholarship, but I could not do that now if Irish is thrown in on top of the legal subjects. It would be merely play-acting with Irish or playacting with law.
I do not agree with play-acting at all.
Deputy Wolfe is speaking about legal knowledge at the finish. Our object is that lawyers should know Irish sufficiently well to conduct their business in it. If a man at his Preliminary Examination knows Irish, but afterwards does not keep it up, he will know no Irish for his Final. Do you want those at the Preliminary Examination to know Irish and afterwards not to know it?
Deputy WOLFE
No.
How will they keep up their knowledge of Irish?
Deputy WOLFE
Section 5.
Our suggestion is that if apprentices know Irish before they become apprentices they will easily get their Preliminary Examination, and they can keep Irish up with very little effort, so that at their Final they will know a sufficient amount. According to Deputy Wolfe, if a man knows Irish at the beginning, but then drops it and gets the Findlater Scholarship, it would be all right. Supposing he is refused the Scholarship because he does not know Irish, we would hear a lot about his grievance.
Deputy WOLFE
No. Do not mix the two. Otherwise it will mean that he will know neither Irish nor Law.
I think that Deputy Wolfe made a fair suggestion, namely, to have an examination in Irish up to the Intermediate Examination. After all, if you develop the study of Irish you generally learn its history and literature. The standard of such examination might be pretty high, but if, when a man is reading for his Final, he has to read Irish History and Literature as well as Law, I think there would be a difficulty.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
It could be said in favour of this amendment that it will keep law students doing something useful in pursuing their knowledge of Irish instead of gallivanting round town.
Deputy WOLFE
If a man wants to do his Final, he will do no gallivanting.
Let him improve his knowledge of Irish as he goes along. It is safer for himself under Section 5.
Deputy WOLFE
A man could be half a noodle and pass the Solicitors' Apprentice Examination.
Without compulsory Irish?
I disagree with that. I think it would be very hard for a noodle to pass the Final Examination.
Deputy WOLFE
It is my opinion that, if a man wants to pass it properly and do the complete course as it should be done, so that he would not be a danger to the public when qualified, he has to read very hard. He would be an absolute danger if he barely wants to scrape through.
I think it is reasonable that, if the Final Examination requires so much time and study, a man should not be asked to pass in Irish at the same time, especially if he has passed in it at the Preliminary and Intermediate Examinations.
MINISTER for FINANCE
I cannot follow Deputy Wolfe at all. I cannot see how legal education will suffer or how the legal standards will be lowered in the slightest. If the first examinations are reasonably stiff, a man would have to do only a comparatively small amount of work in Irish afterwards.
Deputy WOLFE
The human brain has only a certain capacity. If a man wants to make a complete study of Law for his Final, with the time at his disposal, even with first-class brains, he can hardly do his examination at present. I do not oppose Section 5. Let a man do Irish at the Preliminary and Intermediate. I know that I read for the Preliminary in one night. It is a comparatively trivial examination. As regards the Final, however, the man who does it honestly has got a solid year's work in front of him, and, if you add to that honest Irish, you are giving him the impossible to do. As I say, I have no objection to letting Section 5 stand, but if you do not introduce this amendment you ruin the legal profession.
We are hoping that not only will they carry out their studies in Irish, but that they will mix their knowledge of Irish and Law more. I do not think that this will interfere with students. It will put them all on the same footing, and I think that that will be much better. At present Irish is an optional subject. I do not see why there should not be Irish at every examination, so as to ensure that every student shall keep up his knowledge of the language and be competent to do his business in it, having passed his Final.
Deputy WOLFE
The result will be that you will not improve Irish and you will disimprove Law.
Deputy O'SULLIVAN
I do not see how you will do that.
Deputy WOLFE
If you do not get time to do them separately, both one and the other must suffer.
I think we have discussed the matter at sufficient length. I will now put the question.
Amendment 15 put and declared lost.
I suppose that the same argument applies to amendment 17, so there is no necessity to go over the same procedure again. It necessarily falls as a result of amendment 15 being defeated.
Amendment 17 not moved.
Amendment 18. Section 4, sub-section (2), to insert after sub-section (2) a new sub-section as follows:—
" (3) Where any such regulations as aforesaid exempt any person from any of the examinations to which such regulations relate, such regulations shall require such person, notwithstanding such exemption, either to attend and pass so much of such examination as consists of a test of knowledge of the subject of the Irish language or to satisfy the Incorporated Law Society that he has passed an examination in the subject of the Irish language requiring a standard of proficiency of knowledge of that subject which is equal to that required to pass such test as aforesaid."—(An tAire Airgid).
Amendment 19. To add a new section after section 4 as follows:—
" Every person who is exempted from the necessity of passing a preliminary, intermediate or final examination shall, notwithstanding such exemption, be required to attend at and obtain a certificate of passing such portion of the preliminary, intermediate or final examination as the case may be as relates to the Irish language, unless he satisfies the Incorporated Law Society in the manner prescribed by that Society that he has already passed an examination in the Irish language of equal difficulty with that portion of the examination from which he is exempted relating to the Irish language as a condition precedent to proceeding with his apprenticeship to a solicitor or to obtaining his admission as a solicitor as the case may be."—(Deputy Little.)
These two amendments are pretty much on the same footing. I wonder could we get agreement upon them.
MINISTER for FINANCE
There is only a drafting difference between them.
The advantage of amendment 18 is that it means only the addition of a new sub-section, whereas amendment 19 means the addition of a new section, and it might upset the Bill.
MINISTER for FINANCE
I will consult the draughtsman.
Deputy WOLFE
In amendment No. 19 something has been discovered that was never discovered before. However, I do not care how ridiculous you make it. It is obvious that whoever drafted amendment 19 knows nothing about the examinations of the Incorporated Law Society. I support amendment 19.
I think the Minister's amendment carries out the same idea as mine.
MINISTER for FINANCE
I think it does.
Amendment 18 put and declared carried.
Amendment 19 (Deputy Little) not moved.
Section 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.