What would happen in the case of a title where a child was legitimated and there were no other children ? Would the title die out from that branch of the family ?
SECTION 10.
(1) Nothing in this Act shall affect the succession to any dignity or title of honour or render any person capable of succeeding to or transmitting a right to succeed to any such dignity or title.
(2) Nothing in this Act shall affect the operation or construction of any disposition coming into operation before the commencement of this Act, or affect any rights under the intestacy of a person dying before the commencement of this Act.
That would have to be determined by the House of Lords.
Colonel Moore
Is it right that we should touch the question of titles at all ?
I do not think so.
Colonel Moore
We are not particularly interested in titles.
It cannot affect them.
Colonel Moore
Why not leave that out ? Why should we dabble in a matter in which we are not concerned ?
Is it not really a sort of counsel of perfection ? We are not pretending to deal with it. We have no power to deal with it.
Colonel Moore
Why put it in at all then ?
It is a nice thing to say that we are not interfering with other people's business.
It might save a lot of litigation by having it there.
In the event of our establishing titles of honour here, how would this affect them ?
I imagine that they would be established by legislation in this country. In Great Britain, the fount of honour is the Sovereign and it is by a patent from the Sovereign that a title is created. The title may be limited in the patent to the heirs general, the eldest son or in other ways. It is all done through the Sovereign. If we set out to establish titles of honour in this country, I fear we shall not be able to create peerages. I do not know that we want to do that.
Why should we not be able to create them ? If the King acts on the advice of his Ministers in Great Britain, he is bound to act on the advice of the Ministers here.
There is no doubt at all that the King could create a peerage in the case of a citizen of the Free State, but he would have to act, as Senator Hooper says, on the advice of his Free State Ministers.
Colonel Moore
This provision raises another question. The Bill refers to titles. It does not specify titles granted by the King. What about foreign titles—Papal titles and French titles.
We have nothing to do with them.
What would happen in their case ? Would they be recognised as titles under this Bill ? Take the case of a Count of the Holy Roman Empire. Would that be recognised as a title to which this Act would apply ?
We have no right to interfere with that at all. What we say under Section 10 is practically unnecessary because it cannot affect them, but since it is there I do not see why we should knock it out.
Colonel Moore
You have not stated your opinion about those foreign titles.
We cannot interfere with those any more than we can with peerages.
Those are only courtesy titles in this country.
Colonel Moore
Does the word " titles " cover those or not ?
I do not think it covers them at all. It refers to titles which are recognised in this country.
Colonel Moore
The position was, I think—I do not know whether it is the position now or not—that no title was acknowledged in this country or in England unless granted by the King.
That is right.
Colonel Moore
Nevertheless, there are a great many Papal titles.
Yes, and one or two Austrian titles and one or two Belgian titles. Those are purely matters of courtesy in this country and not of right.
Colonel Moore
The title to which you referred as Austrian would probably be an Irish title. The holders only happen to have been living in Austria. It is not an Austrian title ; it is an Irish title.
Any foreign title would be a mere matter of courtesy.
Colonel Moore
That was so up to now, but I am not sure whether it will be so now or not.
What we say in the Bill is that we are not interfering with the succession to any dignity or title of honour. I think that would mean a dignity or title of honour created by the King and would not refer in any way to foreign titles. The section goes on to provide that the Bill shall not affect what has already been done. If an illegitimate died intestate before the Act, then it does not apply at all.
That provision was inserted in Committee in the Dáil.
It is also in the English Act.
Sections 10 and 11 agreed to.