I move amendment No. 63:
In page 14, between lines 43 and 44, to insert the following:
" (4) Where a country requests the surrender of a person who is being proceeded against in that country for an offence punishable under a corresponding law in force in that country or who is wanted in that country for the carrying out of a sentence, that person shall in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act, 1965 be surrendered to that country."
It may be an unnecessary amendment.
It is not an amendment that could be or would be peculiar to this particular Bill because it would come under the Extradition Act of 1965. I must confess I am not too au fait with that Act.
I want to tell you that I passed that Act. Res ipsa loquitur, I am afraid.
Deputy Dr. Byrne's idea is that anybody who is suspected of an offence or committed an offence in another country should be extradited back to the country where he was alleged to have committed the offence. This could be done under the Extradition Act.
I make the point that subsection (2) of section 20 does elaborate as to what is meant by corresponding law.
It is with that in mind that I tabled the amendment. The section deals with offences committed outside the country and I am told it might be pertinent to have in the subsection provision whereby offenders could be extradited under the Extradition Act, 1965, and I thought some reference could be made to it.
He can be. As far as I am informed, the foreign court could apply to the Minister for Justice for an extradition order.
Everybody is extraditable except a person who commits an offence which is excluded from extradition.
This is not one of them.
This is not one of them unless a claim that he was in possession of drugs was brought against him.
It is only for misuse as a result of offences that necessitate or include imprisonment. It may be done anyhow. But whether the Minister for Justice or the courts would have it done is another matter.
I do not think it is a matter that relates particularly to this.
The Minister is satisfied.
Yes.
I move amendment No. 64:
In page 14, before section 21, to insert a new section as follows:
"Where an alien is convicted of any offence under this Act, or of attempting to commit any such offence, the Court shall by order provide for the deportation and exclusion of such alien from the State."
I would like to prolong that for life.
Would he serve a sentence?
If he is convicted, no. The amendment says "where an alien is convicted ".
That he go immediately; he is sent back to the country he came from.
Supposing there is a big gang organising the ring, they send one guy in. If he gets caught that is all right, he will be deported out of the country; there will have been no offence, he will not have to go to jail over there; they just deport him. That might be the attitude taken.
I am afraid it is making life too easy for these people; making it a drug haven for them. They can come in, have a good weekend and be deported.
It would be a most dangerous thing to pass this, not for that reason. I think he should get a sentence. I do not agree at all with deporting him. That would be very wrong.
I am talking about an alien?
An alien, of course.
If Deputy Byrne's proposal is accepted, you would simply deport the person and he would not be punished in any way.
A rather chauvinistic licence.
A person who might have come might even be able to cash the foreign portion of his ticket.
And he would be sent out at the taxpayers' expense.
Take the simple case of a fellow who is caught on a cannabis charge. If that were accepted in its present given form it would mean that he would be deported automatically for a minor offence. But, if a fellow came over here for the specific purpose of pushing and peddling—again I do not think it should be included in our legislation—but, under the Aliens Act, the Minister for Justice has the power not to renew his visa. I do not know how a Minister for Justice would behave in those circumstances. But, if I was Minister for Justice and saw this being done deliberately by somebody who was an alien I think I might look for a deportation order.
He might be a student who might be pursuing a career here, studying here and is involved in a small offence under this Bill.
Is it not possible that some student might not be totally conversant with the law and would have in his possession some drug? He would be innocent.
The general principle of this is—and we need not go into too great a detail on the wording of it—that what we want to see is a person who is a threat to one no longer kept in our society. Let them serve their sentence, whatever it might be and, as soon as the sentence is finished, get rid of them compulsorily out of the country.
The Minister has these powers and, where an alien comes to this country and has a visa, where he is in breach of the regulaions here, he is deported.
But I say it should be in this Bill. This is a specific Bill. Take it this way—anyone who is convicted under section 15 let them serve out their sentence and then be deported back to their country of origin. That is quite simple. That is very sensible and fair.
I can tell you that Aer Lingus might find themselves sending a substantial bill to the Irish Government for Irish people who would be sent back to Ireland from all over the world if that was the case.
It would be wiser to leave this out.
Deputy Dr. Byrne's proposition is contrary to natural justice. An alien is convicted, serves his sentence and then is deported following the serving of the sentence when, in fact, he is a free agent.
I think the Minister for Justice decides whether or not a person is a responsible or a desirable person for the renewal of a visa.
That covers all sections of justice. I want it specifically written into this Bill that where a person who is caught pushing drugs, or attempting to push drugs, where he is trying to import drugs he should serve his sentence here and then be deported.
One way or the other Deputy Dr. Byrne would have to withdraw his amendment and rephrase it for Report Stage.
Has the Minister considered the principle of the pusher?
That would not be my function. That would be the function of the Minister for Justice. As Deputy Byrne's amendment appears here, it means that any offence whatsoever carries automatic deportation. There could be innocent students ignorant of the law who, according to Deputy Byrne's amendment, would go automatically. But an alien who commits an offence and who is convicted, is automatically reported to the Minister for Justice. Then the Minister for Justice decides whether or not he will be deported.
He would have to take a lot of factors into consideration.
Whether or not he would be deported immediately and whether or not he would serve a sentence and then be deported is a matter for the Minister for Justice.
He does not do it lightly either.
That is correct but here we are asking that this be done automatically and it could not be if one does not discriminate between the innocent and others. We should leave that to the Minister for Justice.
Could anybody lighten me, does it stop with the Minister for Justice or has the convicted person the right to appeal to our courts?
He always has the right.
There is too much liberty in this.
That liberty is a very dangerous thing.
A very dangerous word.
Equality is worse.
Would the Minister be prepared to accept something in principle along those lines?
I will be quite honest with you. It is something which is dealt with by the Minister for Justice. If anybody is convicted under this Bill the conviction is reported to the Minister for Justice and he decides whether or not he is to be deported.
The Minister can deport him without him serving a sentence?
Yes.
That is the problem solved.
Or, on the other hand, he might decide that the alien must serve his sentence and then be deported.
Once he is sentenced he would be under the jurisdiction of the courts. I do not think the Minister can then deport him.
He could serve a portion of his sentence.
Is the amendment withdrawn?
Is the Minister satisfied now?
Subsection (5) of Section 5 of the Aliens Act, 1935 says:
An alien who has been ordinarily resident in Saorstat Éireann and has been so resident for a period (whether partly before and partly after the passing of this Act or wholly after such passing) of not less than five years and is for the time being employed in Saorstát Éireann or engaged in business or the practice of a profession in Saorstát Éireann shall not be deported from Saorsát Éireann under an alien's order or an order made under an aliens order unless:
(a) such alien has served or is serving a term of penal servitude or of imprisonment inflicted on him by a Court in Saorsát Éireann, or
(b) the deportation of such alien has been recommended by a Court in Saorsát Éireann before which such alien was indicted for or charged with any crime or offence,
(c) three months' notice in writing of such deportation has been given by the Minister to such alien.
