Special Committee National Board for Science and Technology Bill, 1976 debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 1977

SECTION 1.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 1:

1. In page 2, line 15, after " institute," to insert " college, university ".

There will be a great deal of overlapping of functions of the various institutions and I am seeking to widen the definition of "institution" as much as possible. There is a fair bit of resentment of the proposal to establish this Board among existing semi-State bodies. They feel they are going to be interfered with in some way. The relationship with these semi-State bodies, such as the IIRS and Foras Forbartha, is not defined at all clearly. There is reference in section 4 to the fact that the statutory functions of other institutions will not be interfered with but I could envisage a situation where we will have a lot of semi-State bodies and educational institutions pulling in different directions. I would have thought that the principle the Minister was trying to establish was to have an overall controlling authority. Unfortunately, the Board being established is not being given the means to have a final say. The Board should be able to take and give directions within limitations and supply money to technological and scientific institutions of higher education. I have in mind the institute in Limerick which is one of the premier third level technological institutions in the country.

I would envisage a board such as this working in close harmony with the Institutes, and such harmony would be deepened if the Board were in a position to give money for specific purposes to a particular institute.

The Board also should be able to work with the universities. My purpose in the amendment is to tie the lot together. Unless the Board and the various institutes are prepared to pull together, there is not anything in the Bill to give the Minister or the Board power to lay down the law. There is no guarantee the Board and the institutes will work together and the amendments are designed to achieve that position. There should not be any overlapping.

Mr. Keating

I agree with the contents of and the grounds for what the Deputy has said but I would draw attention to section 4 (4) (b):

The teaching functions of any educational institute, college or school shall be deemed not to be restricted by any provisions of this Act.

Section 4 would be meaningless if universities were not comprehended in the definition of " institute ". I understand universities are so comprehended. It is desirable that the different sections of the Bill should be inter-related in a coherent way, and I suggest that the word "college" alone should be used. "College", with a small " c " might be the word to use. Would that meet with the Committee's approval?

Mr. O'Malley

I agree with that.

Major de Valera

I am reassured by the Minister's statement on the Board's functions. The Board will be a co-ordinating body and should be able to assert themselves through the grants and advice they will give. In regard to research in the universities, the subsection quoted is constrained to the teaching functions of any purely academic institute. The Minister will know that the work in the school very often depends on the speciality of the person appointed to the chair. I would, therefore, like to have some saver for that situation. The putting in of the word " college " is correct but later, right through the Bill, there is the question of balancing the autonomy of a fundamental or pure research institution to follow pure research as against applied research, which is, of course, also of basic importance. As these questions will come up, I do not want to repeat this but, as Deputy O'Malley said, the putting in of the word "college" does avoid another difficulty, namely, the statutory status of universities. For that reason I support what Deputy O'Malley has said.

Mr. Halligan

This is a matter of the importance we attach to the meaning of the word " institute ", whether it is a generic or specific term. I would regard it as a generic term.

Mr. O'Malley

There is a distinction made between the NIHE in Limerick which is specifically referred to as an institute, whereas UCD or Trinity is referred to as a university. I know that this has much to do with the statutory definitions in the 1908 Act, but I can see the danger of "institute" there being defined in the narrow sense.

Mr. Halligan

I must say that while I can see the temptation for somebody who might be geographically adjacent to an institution to fall into that trap, I do not think it is one that would have occurred to me because I saw the meaning of the word there in its generic sense covering a wide range of various types of bodies. Institutes such as An Foras Forbartha, the IIRS or the ESRI are one type; the universities are another type, colleges of technology another and whatever kinds of institution we may devise in the educational system during the next quarter of a century could also fall within the ambit. Any body at third level, whatever would be its statutory basis, engaged in either applied or fundamental research would fall within the context of the definition of "institute". If this is made too specific, there may be a trap and something new may emerge which would not be covered by such a specific definition. For example, if we were to develop something like the MIT and we did not use the word "institute" in the title, it would not be a university or a college or an institute. Would it fall within the meaning of the word " institution " here? In the case of the MIT, the word " institute " is used in the title but we might use the Irish title. I would prefer to have a much wider generic meaning to the word " institute " which would be able to comprehend new forms of development.

Chairman

Apart from Deputy Halligan's remarks, there seems to me to be a consensus here. The Minister in replying to Deputy O'Malley's suggestion said that he was prepared to accept the word "college" and I gather that Deputy O'Malley accepted the Minister's viewpoint, supported by Deputy de Valera. While it is not the function of the Chair to become contentious, it seems to me that there is a difference between an institute and a college within the Irish understanding of the Limerick institute and the universities. Without splitting hairs, we should accept the consensus that exists between the Minister and Deputy O'Malley and proceed to the next section.

Amendment amended by leave, by the deletion of " university ".

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Section 1, as amended, agreed to.