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Special Committee on the Children (Care And Protection) Bill, 1985 debate -
Wednesday, 24 Sep 1986

Election of Chairman

I propose Deputy Michael Bell as Chairman.

I second that proposal.

Question put and agreed to.
Mr. Bell took the Chair.

Chairman

Mr. Minister, ladies and gentlemen, and colleagues, first of all I should like to thank you for electing me Chairman. It is a pleasure to be elected unanimously and that is a good start. I should like to say that I will work with you to achieve the task given to us, namely, to get this Bill on the Statute Book. Members will agree that legislation is long overdue. I know that Members will have various views to express and I am sure that at times we will have some disagreement. I ask all Members to cooperate with me in endeavouring to have any such disagreements dealt with in a spirit of colleagueship and co-operation so that we can ultimately achieve agreement without any undue hassle. I expect full commitment from all members. Those of us who are members of other committees have had experience of a great start to those committees with a lot of people attending and many things said but as time went on the attendance tended to dwindle. That has been my experience not alone with committees of the House here but elsewhere. I ask members, when we get to the stage of deciding on meetings and procedure to keep that in mind. I ask for as full an attendance as possible at each meeting so that we can avoid repetition and disagreement. If there is any disagreement we should confine it to meetings of the committee and not have it flying about in the national media. That has done a lot of harm to other committees. With those few words I should like to thank members most sincerely and assure them of my co-operation. I am sure I will have their co-operation in return.

As the first item has been disposed of we will move to the second item which is procedure generally. At this meeting we should concentrate our minds on that because we have not got to know each other yet and we are not sure what is in the pipeline. Procedure will be very important. I will open up the meeting for any member who would like to contribute. Perhaps the Minister might like to say a few words?

Before the Minister commences I would just like to convey the apologies of Deputies GeogheganQuinn and Fitzgerald who are unable to attend.

Chairman

For the benefit of members the Minister would like some officials from his Department to be present at our meetings. Perhaps the Minister would introduce the personnel concerned. I am not familiar with some of them.

I should like to congratulate Deputy Bell on his appointment as Chairman of the committee. The fact that it was unanimous augurs well for the working of the committee. I am accompanied by Mr. Liam Flanagan, secretary, Department of Health, Dr. Joe Robins, assistant secretary, Mr.Donal Devitt, principal officer and Mr. Paul Barron, assistant principal officer. They have been intensively involved with this Bill, more particularly in the preparation of material for what will probably prove to be a difficult and complex Committee Stage.

May I make a point about procedure? If the Bill is to be dealt with speedily and got back to the House for Report Stage soon we would need to meet on a weekly basis. That is going to be quite an imposition on members. We have to deal with a large number of very complex and comprehensive amendments which arose out of the Second Stage debate and out of statements made by Deputies and representations received. Therefore, I think we would want to meet weekly, not next Wednesday but in a week or two hence and every Wednesday afterwards. I am aware of the pressures we are all under at present. Some members have to travel to Dublin and I should like to throw out an initial suggestion that we meet on Wednesday afternoon. I know it is going to impose further difficulties on the staff of the Houses because Wednesday afternoon is very popular for all committee meetings. If we met from 2.30 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday it might avoid bringing people up on Tuesday or Thursday. Government meetings take place on Thursday morning and it would be very difficult for me to be present at a committee meeting on that morning and party meetings tend to take place on Wednesday mornings. If Tuesday morning was decided on it would mean some members facing an onerous problem of travel. I will willingly attend, as will the officers of the Department, on the day decided by the committee.

On a procedural basis I should like to make the point that the officers of my Department, while they are precluded from formally contributing at the proceedings here, are available to all members of the committee in relation to any queries or any amendments contemplated by members. They will be readily available to discuss issues with members as they develop. That will be available across the board and outside the formal proceedings of the committee. That should be of some help.

Before we conclude our proceedings today at what is a procedural meeting I should like to make a few general comments about the Bill as it stands going into committee without specifically referring to any individual amendment.

Chairman

May I interject to say that we should get the time of the meetings out of the way first and get consensus on it. There will be difficulties for members no matter what time or day is chosen. The Minister suggested 2.30 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. on Wednesdays. I have a note here from the clerk in relation to the availability of rooms. It appears that room G.24 is available on Tuesday from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m., Room G.2 is available on Tuesday from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., Room G.2 is available on Wednesday from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. and room 114 on Thursday from 10 a.m. There is a note also to say that rooms might be available intermittently but not on a regular basis. I have been informed by the clerk of the committee that the times listed are the only times when rooms are available. Perhaps the superintendent could give some advice on the availability of rooms before we start making arrangements for meetings and discover we have nowhere to meet. The only time apparently available is on Tuesday from 4.00 p.m. to 6.00 p.m. in room G.24. That coincides with the Committee on Public Expenditure and one or two other committees. The room is also available on Tuesday from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. Are there any comments on that? The only room available on Wednesday is G.2 from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. Are there any comments on that?

Perhaps for the first few meetings we could meet on an ad hocbasis and then when the Dáil reassembles we may be able to reach an understanding each week as to when we would meet. There will be a certain preference for a number of people who are involved in the other committees to meet on Wednesdays. Perhaps if we wait say until the end of October, the clerk may be able to find a time that would suit us.

Chairman

That is a reasonable suggestion. Deputy O'Hanlon has suggested that we would arrange the next meeting say for about two weeks from now, and at that meeting we can arrange the next one, and then when the Dáil resumes we will try to get a consensus when we see what is available and what pressures members may be under. Is that agreed?

Before we reach agreement about meeting on this day two weeks, we should ensure that, before we start processing the Committee Stage of this Bill, all the amendments to the Bill are circularised. We only have a small proportion of those amendments at the moment. Parts of this Bill are interdependent on other parts and sections interact with other sections and we cannot process the Bill in a piecemeal way. I am anxious that we process this Bill quickly and that we produce the substantive legal reforms that are required in this area. I am happy with the arrangement that we meet on this day two weeks, on the understanding that we would do so to review the position as at this day two weeks but that we would not commence processing tabled amendments until we have an opportunity to see all of the amendments so that members of the committee will have an opportunity to consider what other amendments may be necessary to resolve any other difficulties that arise with the Bill. That clarification is necesary because, if we came back on this day two weeks and started processing the amendments that have been tabled to the first few sections in this Bill we could, without knowing what all the other amendments are supposed to be, rule out the possibility of amending later sections because of the interdependent nature of some of the provisions contained in the Bill. I would like clarification as to when we would have all of the amendments proposed by the Minister available to us.

Chairman

I was taking it on the basis that the Minister indicated that in two weeks from now any departmental amendments proposed for the entire Bill will be available to us and circulated before that time. Could I ask the Minister to respond to that please?

I made a general point for today's meeting knowing that we were not going to have a formal discussion on the amendments circulated. We have sent this first list of amendments, and that is the conventional way. This list only encompasses the first nine sections of the Bill. We will meet in two weeks' time and at that meeting I should be in a position to give a comprehensive statement on the progress relating to the amendments as a whole. I hope to prepare an individual brief relating to each amendment for all members of the committee, so that a great deal of discussion can be, not pre-empted, but at least conducted in a formal way, because we have 88 sections here and there will be very many amendments and we will need a lot of cross-reference on a written basis before the committee rather than just going down through it.

Chairman

Are the committee happy with that?.

I am perfectly happy with the procedure on that basis.

With the permission of the Chairman, can I today make an introductory statement about the Bill as a whole?

Chairman

We have agreed to Dr. O'Hanlon's suggestion in relation to arranging meetings that in two weeks from now we will have the next meeting and then at that meeting we will arrange the following series of meetings until the time that the Dáil resumes.

I have a problem in that I will be away between 3 October and 15 October. While I do not want to disrupt business it is important that as many as possible would be here for the initial meetings.

Chairman

Two weeks from now — what date is that?

I will be back on 15 October which is this day three weeks.

Chairman

Would Thursday 16 October present any problems to anybody?

The extra time might be more advantageous taking into consideration Deputy Shatter's request that we should have time to consider all the proposed amendments before we start processing the Bill.

Chairman

It is agreed that we meet on Thursday 16 October from 2.30 p.m. to 4.30 p.m.? We have a problem in relation to the availability of rooms and I have a note here which gives us G24 on Tuesdays, G2 on Tuesdays, G2 on Wednesdays and room 114 on Thursdays at specified times. We have agreed to arrange subsequent meetings at each meeting until the Dáil resumes, so we can check out with the superintendent as to what rooms are available. When the Dáil resumes we will want the Superintendent to give us a list of rooms and times for the next session so that we can fix the meetings on a regular basis.

I am informed that there is a standard schedule already agreed between all the committees. The clerks of all the committees met at the beginning of the administration with the Clerk Administrator and a schedule for all committees has been established for the duration of the administration. If a time the Committee require is not free on the schedule, the only alternative is for the Clerk of this committee to negotiate a swap or a re-adjustment through the Clerk Administrator with some other committee which has the time required.

We will do that but in the meantime we will arrange the meetings as we go along until we get the clerk to negotiate a date and a room suitable to everybody. The Minister wants to make an introductory statement, I understand.

Will somebody clarify a point for me? What do Members of the Oireachtas who are not members of the committee, have in regard to attendance at meetings of the committee?

Chairman

That is one of the matters we will be discussing and I hope that before the meeting concludes, having got some guidelines and some advice, we will be able to formally advise you, and other Members of the House, and the general public, as to what the procedure will be in regard to making representations to the committee. If you will bear with us we will be able to give you an answer to that.

As distinct from a select committee this committee, as I understand it, is a committee of the House and the Bill is purely seized to the members of the committee. All discussion, on that basis, is confined and the passing of amendments is confined to the members of the committee set up by the House. These functions are devolved to the committee. That is my understanding of it. Subject to the clerk of the committee having any other clarification on it, under Standing Orders of the House — I am going from memory because I was on two special committees of the House dealing with the misuse of drugs and the family home protection Bill — are obliged to follow that procedure. I am informed that the rules as to procedure here are the same as the rules as to procedure in committee of the whole Dáil.

Chairman

Since the procedure in the Dáil applies to special committees it is clear that only members of a committee are entitled to speak and be recorded during its proceedings. I have a copy here of a ruling to this effect, in regard to a special committee set up in 1951. Is there anything further that any member wishes to say on that subject?

On a point of information, what might be the procedural structure, if any, that would allow submissions to be made either by individual Oireachtas Members or outside bodies? Is there any structure for that?

As I understand it there is nothing to preclude any Member of the Oireachtas from making direct representation to the committee but, under the Standing Orders of the committees that are set up to deal with Committee Stages of Bills, such members are precluded formally from participating in the affairs of the committee. That is my understanding of it.

For the benefit of members who have not been members of special committees before, it is well to point out that the procedure is that amendments are submitted in the normal way, are debated here and a decision is taken here. The Bill then goes back for a Report Stage debate in the House. The Committee Stage does not have to be adopted by the House.

That is correct. Any matter arising out of Committee Stage here can be raised on Report Stage by any member. I hope that any member who felt that the setting up of the committee was in any way inhibiting him or her from making a contribution — the House decided to set up the committee and devolve responsibility for Committee Stage to the members of the committee — will make recommendations or proposals in writing to the Chairman, to me or to the spokesperson on the Opposition side. That is the limitation. The prospect of proposing, speaking to or voting on amendments has been passed from the Members of the Dáil to the committee.

Chairman

I take it that we are bound by that procedure and that it is not open to us to change it. Amendments must be tabled by members of the committee, but any Member of the House can make his views known to a member of the committee on any section of the Bill or on any proposed amendment. Any Member of the House, or any member of the general public who would wish to make a suggestion, submission or proposal on any section of the Bill or on any proposed amendment to it, can do so through the members of the committee.

I do not know if I am in order in being at the meeting today.

Chairman

For today I will allow it until we clear this point of procedure.

Thank you. Do I take it that on the basis of what has been said so far, I can no longer attend these meetings and if I can attend I am not permitted to speak? Secondly, will Members of the Oireachtas be notified of the dates and times of meetings and the amendments to be dealt with? In what way will members be kept informed of the proceedings of the committee? When the committee was being set up in the House and another Bill was being referred to the Committee on Legislation I raised this question of attendance and participation and I was informed categorically by the Taoiseach that I would be allowed to attend meetings, that I could speak and that the only restriction on my participation, or that of any Member would be that I could not vote. It appears that the decision to refer this matter to the special committee was on the basis, as far as I am concerned, of this information.

Chairman

The Deputy raised two points. I should like to tell him, and for the information of members, that notice of meetings will be on the Order Paper and posted on the notice board. If the committee wish to have any further means of communication in relation to the procedure I will be happy to go along with it provided we stay within the rules of procedure. Is that agreed?

The other two points about attendance and speaking?

Chairman

I will deal with those. Only Members of the Committee have got a right to speak at the meetings.

Chairman

But I do not see any reason why Members of the House should not be allowed to attend. We would welcome them.

I am sorry, Deputy De Rossa, that I cannot be any more helpful. I will undertake to check and double check the rules of procedure. The Deputy will appreciate that this is a new ball game to me. I will check out the points made very carefully and I will ask the clerk of the committee to communicate with you on that.

Minister, we have cleared those few procedural points. Could we proceed with your opening comments?

Subject to agreement of the Chairman I propose to make a very brief statement by way of introduction to the Bill before formal proceedings are terminated. Before we start work on the Bill and its amendments I feel I should make some general introductory comments to the committee about why I propose to amend the Bill substantially.

The Bill has proved to be a most complex Bill, certainly the most complicated dealt with by my Department during their 40 years of existence. Important sections in it touch on the status of the family and more specifically on the rights of the child and the rights of parents. These areas are, of course, covered by the Constitution and by court judgments which have from time to time interpreted, not very consistently, the implications of the Constitution in instances where there have been disputes over children. Since the Bill was published some new interpretations have been put forward to which I have had to give considerable weight. Deputy Shatter, during the Second Stage debate, raised a number of issues in that regard and other members of the legal profession have, outside the House, also made valuable comments and recommendations on the Constitutional aspects.

Other amendments arise from reconsideration of the original provisions of the Bill. I made it clear when I was concluding the second stage that I would welcome a critical appraisal of these provisions particularly by persons involved in the child care area so that the Bill could be improved wherever it was thought necessary. Subsequently I received a substantial volume of representations, some contradictory, but all of them helpful, and I have accepted a considerable number of the ideas put forward. As we work through the Bill I shall be explaining each of the amendments, but at this stage I would draw attention to the fact that the Bill's general structure has been reorganised and important areas made more specific so that its basic philosophy and its aims will be clearer. I will be circulating to the individual Members of the committee a specific brief as to how this proposal develops so that it can be of benefit to Members and they will have some time to reflect on it between now and 16 October.

Some of the representations received by me complained that the present version of the Bill lacked a clear expression of policy. We have a tradition here of not drafting statements of policy into legislation but of confining ourselves strictly to the legal provisions necessary to implement it. However, in reframing the Bill the draftsmen have brought together in a new Part II certain provisions which may be said to form its basic principles. This new Part II relating to the promotion of welfare of children, which has already been circulated, sets out the duties of the health boards in promoting the welfare of children in their areas. It also lays down fundamental principles which shall inform the actions of the health boards in discharging their functions under the Bill. It also includes enabling powers in relation to the provision of services either directly by the boards or by voluntary agencies. A further section defines the functions of the CEOs of the health boards in relation to various sections of the Bill.

Before we start our deliberations on 16 October I would emphasise what I regard as the most fundamental of the principles underpinning the whole Bill, namely, that it is in the best interests of a child that he be brought up in his own family. The general aim of the Bill is to support the family which requires assistance in doing that. Intervention to have a child cared for in another setting will only be undertaken in exceptional circumstances and where the child's situation clearly requires it. I must emphasise that point in advance in view of some recent public comment which appeared to suggest that this legislation might be a threat to the family.

I hope, in the more detailed brief to be presented to the members of the committee on an individual basis, to elaborate on those points so that we will have plenty of opportunity to reflect on them.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister. Does any member want to make a comment on that?

I will make an equally brief comment. It is not traditional to make speeches on Committee Stage. I simply welcome the fact that this committee are now sitting and I hope that the amendments to be circulated will deal with many of the difficulties that have arisen in the original draft of this Bill. This Bill is about ensuring full and proper protection for the welfare of children and it should be the primary aim of this commitee to ensure that the best interest of children are fully and properly protected and that the legislation that has been inadequate for almost 80 years is replaced by legislation that can deal with the complex problems of Irish society today.

I urge that the various amendments that have yet to be circulated should fully take into account the various representaions that have been made in the context of fulfilling the aspirations that the Minister expressed for the Bill and should be mirrored by the substantive provisions that it is proposed be contained in it. I look forward to this committee undertaking this task. We should not get sidetracked by totally spurious and inaccurate comments made by persons who are either Members of this House or outside this House who are not members of this committee and who have very little understanding of the areas on which they have tended to make public comment.

The job we must do is to ensure that when this committee's work is complete and the Bill goes to Report Stage in the Dáil all amendments required to ensure that all children who are at risk are provided for and afforded full and adequate protection in the context of both legislation and a reorganisation of our social services are made, so that the Bill holds out that prospect on its completing the legislative process. The input that this committee will make in these areas will be of major significance in determining the ultimate success of this legislation.

While I fully support the need for the Bill and, indeed, it is important to ensure that we give protection to children who are at risk, we have got to keep an eye on the rights of parents, particularly the constitutional and natural rights of parents, so that these are not denied in the pursuit of ensuring that there is proper protection for children. In that context it is a difficult and complex Bill. It is important that we try to get the balance right in our deliberations. While I see a need for the Bill to ensure that children at risk will be protected, at the same time we must keep sight of the fact that parents have got very fundamental rights and we must ensure that they are also protected.

Chairman

I am sure no one will disagree with that.

I know the chair does not want us all to make opening statements but I would like to welcome the fact that deliberations have started and reiterate what Deputy Shatter has said. The Minister is very aware of some inaccurate remarks that have been made about the Bill. I take completely what Deputy O'Hanlon has said with regard to the rights of parents and I welcome very much what the Minister has said, that the general aim is to support the family and that assistance is required in doing that. However, my bottom line is that the child and the rights of the child come first. For too long, and very tragically at times, they have been sacrificed on the altar of certain sacred aspects of family that I do not think have held up for the rights of the child.

Chairman

I do not think there is anything inconsistent in the three points that have been made. I assume from the Minister's remarks in his opening statement that every effort will be made by us collectively to try to facilitate all the points that will be made by members and incorporate them, as far as is possible, in the Bill. That will be the function of this allparty special committee.

Is the clerk of the committee in a position to say if it is possible to have a green print of the first list of amendments circulated. It would be very helpful for us in preparing the briefs for members to have them in a printed form.

Chairman

I do not think there is any real disagreement on that. The Minister has said the officials will be available to members and I should like to know if he means the members of the committee or the Members of the House.

The members of the committee and, indeed, as a matter of courtesy every Member of the House who puts the normal inquiry to the officials will receive a reply.

Chairman

If a Member of the House needs clarification on a particular aspect — obviously the Minister does not want a queue outside the door every day — that member may consult with the officials.

I have not the slightest inhibition about members being free to ask why an amendment is being proposed on an informal basis.

Chairman

We have got off to a good start. My intention when I sat in here was that our first session would be brief and to the point and that we would make a number of decisions. We have not had any disagreement.

There is one point which occurs to me in regard to today's meeting which I presume will be relevant to future meetings. I assume that while Members of the House will be made aware that these meetings are being held, the press will also be made aware that these meetings are being held. We may or may not want it reported but the general public are entitled to know what we are up to. I do not think any member of the press is present today. This is a major committee and one would expect some interest to be generated in it. Perhaps we should ensure that the press is notified.

We should ask the clerk to issue a statement to the effect that the committee has commenced business.

Chairman

I should like to ask the clerk to circulate all information as widely as possible and, in particular, that members of the committee be given adequate notice of meetings and all necessary documentation in time for consideration before a meeting. I detest, unless it is absolutely necessary, having documentation placed on the table before one when one walks into a meeting. One has to try to gobble up the whole thing and sometimes is expected to make a decision or come to a conclusion after only a few minutes consideration. I ask for co-operation on that. Notifications should go out as early as possible. Any documentation from the Department should be circulated in good time for consideration by members. I would be annoyed if we were asked to consider a lot of documentation which was tabled on the day of a meeting or if we got it in the post before leaving for a meeting. I ask for co-operation in that respect.

I will convey the views of the Chairman to the parliamentary draftsman and the others concerned.

Chairman

We must fix the latest date for receipt of amendments. Will the Minister explain what is meant by that?

It is a convention we have been made aware of. I do not think we should fix a date at this meeting.

Chairman

I think it would be dangerous to try to come to a conclusion on that so early on.

That does not preclude any member of the committee from submitting amendments.

Chairman

We can deal with that at a later stage. With regard to the admission of the press and visitors, including visitors mentioned by Deputy Shatter, I take it that we will leave the arranging of that to the clerk to be dealt with on a meeting to meeting basis? I have a note to the effect that when considering Bills section by section in this committee there must be a verbatim report of the proceedings. We have made arrangements for that. We will ascertain when the report of each meeting will be available.

Have we set a quorum for the committee meetings?

Chairman

I was about to deal with that. It would be very useful to have a verbatim report of the proceedings soon after the meeting. With regard to Deputy Doyle's point about a quorum, normally it is about one-third of the total membership. The quorum for this Special Committee has been set by the Dáil and is four? I am a stickler for time, and if the meeting is to be at 2.30 p.m. or at 6.30 p.m. I will start the meeting as soon as four members of the committee are present irrespective of what is on the agenda. I ask for the committee's co-operation in that please. There are not any other points. Do members wish to raise anything else? If not, I thank the committee once again for electing me Chairman. I look forward to working with the committee. Go raibh maith agaibh.

The Committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m.

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