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Special Committee on the Companies (No. 2) Bill, 1987 debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 1990

SECTION 103.

I move amendment No. 130:

In page 89, line 18, to delete "£300" and substitute "£1,000".

This amendment is increasing the penalties on indictment under sections 214 and 345 of the principal Act. Section 214 relates to the circumstances in which a company are deemed to be unable to pay their debts and the existing section provides: "if a creditor, by assignment or otherwise, to whom the company is indebted in a sum exceeding £50 then due, has served on the company, by leaving at the registered office of the company, a demand in writing requiring the company to pay the sum so due, and the company has for 3 weeks thereafter neglected to pay the sum or to secure a compound for it to the reasonable satisfaction of the creditor;" the company shall be deemed to be unable to pay their debts.

That will have all sorts of serious legal consequences. A creditor who is owed a small sum, £50 at the moment, can do this. This has a very substantial inconvenience value. The legislation here proposes to increase that sum of £50 to £300. The amendment we are putting forward here would increase that sum further to £1,000. In modern parlance, that is a relatively small sum of money and we would not think a sum less than that ought to be one on which the creditor could take the very serious steps outlined here.

We are also proposing a similar substitution of the figure in section 345 of the legislation which relates to the winding-up of unregistered companies and gives similar rights to creditors to initiate the winding-up of the company. I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about this.

We are talking here about figures and not about principles. If the Minister can convince us that £300 is really the right figure I am not going to die in the ditch over the difference. She might like to look at a larger figure — naturally we hope that inflation will continue at a low level although it seems to be rising at the moment — given that we are passing legislation that is going to last unamended for at least 25 years.

I am pleased to tell Deputy Bruton he will not have to die in the ditch. This amendment was tabled in the Seanad by Senator, now Deputy, Hogan and was one of the amendments not reached. Had it been reached I think it would have been acceptable. As Deputy Bruton said, if a company cannot meet a demand for £50 within three weeks they are deemed to be unable to pay their debts and that, of course, is unrealistic in this day and age. We propose to accept the amendment. I think the figure of £1,000 tabled by the Deputies is far more realistic in the circumstances and I am prepared to accept it. I like to give people a little shock now and again.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 103, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 131:

In page 89, before section 104, to insert the following new section:

"104.—Nothwithstanding the provisions of section 17 of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893 on a sale of goods to a company as between the liquidator or any creditor of such company and the vendor of the goods neither legal or equitable title to the goods shall be deemed to have passed to the company until the entire purchase money for such goods shall have been paid or discharged and if such goods have become intermixed with other goods whether of the same nature or otherwise the company or a liquidator of the company shall hold such mixed goods upon trust to discharge the outstanding balance of the purchase price out of such mixed goods and if the said goods have been sold whether in their original state or mixed with other goods the company or the liquidator shall hold the proceeds of such sale in trust to discharge the outstanding balance of the purchase price.".

I put the amendments down so long ago that I have difficulty remembering some of the reasons for them. This amendment is concerned with the problem of farmers and others who supply cattle, for example, to a factory. This has happened to some members of the Committee here. I would say Deputy Hyland would be particularly conscious of this from the occupation that he and I share.

The problem is that on a few occasions farmers have found that having supplied cattle to the factory the cattle not having been paid for within the normal credit delay, which may be a week or so — there are some factories who are punctilious about paying on the day but there are others who, perfectly legitimately and acceptably, have a practice of not paying immediately — within that period the company may become insolvent for other reasons, in which case the farmer finds himself bereft on his cattle. I am aware of one case where a man had, unfortunately, supplied virtually his entire herd of stock within one week or so to a factory, 40 cattle, and that man was ruined when he could not be paid. I know that would be an exception; the number supplied in any one week that would be subject to this sort of circumstances would not represent such a huge proportion of a farmer's available stock in trade, but it has happened.

The purpose of this amendment is to provide that the title in the goods does not pass until the entire purchase money for the goods has been paid. In other words, the farmer will retain ownership of his stock or an equitable interest in the stock which will continue after the cattle have been slaughtered until he is paid, notwithstanding the fact that such goods have been mixed with other goods.

I am making this case to protect one category of ordinary trade creditor, that is a farmer supplying a factory but, of course, I stress that if this amendment is accepted any supplier to whom the provisions of the proposed section apply will benefit from it. I mention farmers solely because it has arisen more blatantly as a problem in the case of the farming community, but it can arise in other circumstances with other people who are supplying goods to a larger company. It could apply in respect of other forms of food production.

If I may say so, this approach is consistent with other amendments that Fine Gael have put down to this Bill. We have been seeking, for example, to reduce the extent to which banks can claim guarantees from directors. The purpose of those amendments, among other things, is to protect ordinary trade creditors and their rights under this Act to pursue directors if there is misfeasance and ensuring that those rights are not rendered worthless by claims by guarantees by banks. Later in the Bill we will be proposing to reduce the preference the Revenue Commissioners have as a creditor over all other creditors.

This amendment is consistent with this in seeking to protect a category of ordinary trade creditors against those who have greater economic power and greater inside information about the affairs of the company and greater ability, therefore, to protect themselves by insisting on adequate payment arrangements which reflect their economic power. I do not think that one large company dealing with another large company would need protection such as this because they will, naturally enough, be sufficiently strong to be able to insist on payment on the day but where there is unequal economic power between the creditor on the one hand and the debtor on the other — and the debtor is the party with more economic power — the creditor is likely to have to wait for his or her money. Therefore, an amendment such as this, which provides that the creditor is protected by not giving up his rights to his goods until such time as he is paid will redress some of the economic inequalities in our society in contractual relations.

While I presented the amendment as one of interest to farmers, it would be more accurate to present it as one of interest to weaker economic actors as against stronger economic actors in their contractual relations. I hope on that basis it will have an appeal to all members of the committee as something that they would wish to support.

If I was all sweetness and light in the last amendment that will not be the case with this one. What is being suggested in this amendment is that a reservation of title clause should be implied in every single contract for the sale of goods to a company. Section 17 of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893, which is referred to in the amendment provides that the title to goods should transfer to the buyer when the parties to the goods intend it to be transferred. The wording of section 17 is as follows:

Where there is a contract for the sale of specific or ascertained goods, the property in them is transferred to the buyer at such time as the parties to the contract intend it to be transferred.

This provision reflects both legislative and common law trends in the area of contract law for a very long time; in other words, respect for the freedom of parties to decide the terms of their contract. The Oireachtas, in particular, has traditionally only intervened where the balance between the contracting parties is uneven and possibly unfair. This is particularly evident in the area of consumer protection law where the consumer may very often be in a weaker position than the supplier of goods or services, particularly where standard form contracts are in operation.

The amendment suggests that the Oireachtas should intervene by inserting a provision in companies legislation to the effect that where goods are sold to a company, title to the goods will never pass until the seller of the goods has been paid for them. The intention of the proposed provision seems to be to protect ordinary trade creditors in the event of the insolvency of the company.

However, there seems to be no good reason such a clause should be deemed, by virtue of statute, to be implied in every contract for the sale of goods to a company. Indeed, the amendment is proposing an unwarranted and unnecessary incursion in the area of contract law.

The reason for the proposed amendment is difficult to understand. The law has recognised for some 200 years the right of a seller to stipulate that the property in goods sold passes only on payment in full. This principle was, as I have mentioned, given statutory approval by section 17 of the 1893 Sale of Goods Act.

Furthermore, reservation of title clauses were given specific judicial approval in a number of cases over the last 15 years. The most celebrated case is that which is known as the Romalpa case, a United Kingdom case in 1974. This case showed clearly that it is possible for a supplier to guard against the insolvency of his purchaser, by creating an enforceable claim to recapture goods supplied and to be paid the proceeds of any sub-sale of them. Since this case, reservation of title clauses have commonly become known as "Romalpa clauses". Although the Romalpa case is regarded as the most important case on the question of retention of title clauses, the Irish courts had, two years prior to Romalpa, in 1972, declared a retention of title clause to be enforceable. This was in the case of Interview Limited. It is surprising, therefore, that an amendment is being suggested which would, in fact, introduce a restrictive element in this area of law which, of its nature, requires considerable flexibility.

There is another reason the proposed amendment is undesirable. While the Government have no plans to introduce any restrictions on the use of retention of title clauses, we are not convinced that the proliferation of such clauses is a good thing in itself. The UK Cork Committee on Insolvency noted that such clauses could strike at the roots of the system of credit. When banks lend without security, they look to the assets in the balance sheet or, more frequently, in periodical statements of assets by the customer to the banker. If a large portion of those assets, such as stock, work in progress and book debts, were all effectively earmarked for one section of creditors, being the suppliers, or there was a risk that this was so, they would not be so ready to advance money in the first place.

Equally, when banks lend on the security of floating charges, they look to the cover provided by the assets within their security. If, again, a substantial portion of stocks, work in progress and debtors were the property of supply creditors — or there was the possibility that they were — banks would be less inclined to lend.

There is a further difficulty; those concerned with the rescue or reconstruction of companies in financial difficulties, argued to the Cork Committee that receivers would have difficulty in keeping businesses operating if stocks, work in progress and debtors, in whole or in part, belonged to or were claimed by supply creditors and could be seized by them. The receiver would not have the means to keep a business in action while attempts were made to sell it as a going concern or to reorganise it.

While I would not want to enshrine something in the statute that would create difficulties of this kind for receivers, I would be even more worried about the effect it would have on the regime for company rescues being proposed in Part IX of the Bill. The committee will already be aware what that Part of the Bill is trying to do, and indeed our proposals there have been fairly widely welcomed. The amendment would play ducks and drakes with the examiner under Part IX — the examiner would not — indeed could not — know where he stood from one day to the next. I do not think that would be a desirable situation.

The net effect of the proposed amendment would be to take the risk out of commercial transactions. If the provision proposed were translated into law, then everybody who supplied goods and was not paid for them would, in the event of a liquidation — (a) have the automatic right to have them returned, or (b) where this was not possible, to insist on payment in full out of the company's assets. Such a provision would make a total nonsense of the whole business of credit and would take any risk there is out of commercial transactions.

In conclusion, therefore, freedom of contract should not be curtailed by statute more than absolutely necessary. Given the many different trading circumstances that can arise, the problems in this area, if they exist, would be better resolved by ordinary market forces rather than by a modification of the law — a modification which would have universal application. In these circumstances and because of the general effect it would have on companies in receivership and under the protection of the court, by virtue of Part IX of the Bill, I could not accept the amendment.

In response to the Deputy's remarks in relation to farmers as creditors, the same can be said about any other creditors. I accept that the mention of farmers might be somewhat emotive but the amendment does not refer specifically to farmers. It would include everybody and the person who is owed for stationery or whatever would have the same entitlements as farmers. In insolvency all creditors — big and small — suffer and they would all have to be on the same footing.

I do not think the Minister has answered the case. The Minister's party, in another context, expressed great concern about concentration in the beef industry and undue power of individual actors in the processing of beef and the possibility that one could even have a monopoly arising in that situation. It is ridiculous to suggest that faced with that degree of concentration in the beef industry, an individual farmer could go along to a processor and say: "I have cattle that I have to get rid of today, nobody else is prepared to take them except you, but I insist on a reservation of title clause or I will not supply them to you." While freedom of contract may exist in theory in that situation, there is no freedom of contract in practice for that individual faced with the great economic power operating in a highly concentrated beef processing industry and receiving supplies from a highly dispersed range of suppliers who do not act — and cannot act — in concert with one another. Freedom of contract, a fine principle which the Minister advocates, does not and cannot operate in practice and will not operate in practice. If one of these major suppliers were to get into difficulty, farmers are likely to find themselves in trouble and not paid.

The Minister is saying that this would cause difficulty for receivers. If that is the case, a way around those difficulties should be sought. I am not quite sure that I understand them. The difficulties would simply be that if a company has not paid for something that was supplied to it, those are not part of the assets of the company. I would have assumed that a receiver would know on coming into a company and inspecting its books what it had paid for and what it had not paid for, and would be able to make a fairly clear decision as to what he had and what he did not have on that basis. Payments would have been recorded and the items in respect of which they had been made would also have been recorded. A receiver should, quite quickly, within the meaning of this section, know where he stands. I am not quite sure that that is a problem.

The Minister makes the case that it might make it difficult for some of these large processors to raise money from the banks, because the danger is that the banks might not give them as much money as they want because they would feel that not all the stock that they had in the works actually belonged to them at a given time. If that is the case, I must say I am not too worried. Presumably these companies will also have very substantial physical assets. Those should be more than sufficient for the banks to lend them money, without having to insist that they own the stock and trade as well, when it has not been paid for, as a security.

In the beef industry, the processors about whom the Minister is so concerned as to their ability to get money from the banks, because of their large operations probably have a better credit rating almost than the Government. Worry about the credit rating of beef processors is not a very convincing reason for rejecting this amendment.

I am prepared to acknowledge that this amendment drafted by Deputy Barrett and myself is very similar in wording to an amendment put forward in the Seanad by Senator, now Deputy Phil Hogan and Senator, now Deputy, Gerry Reynolds. I am prepared to acknowledge on behalf of all four of us, that we are open to correction on the precise wording. We are open to suggestions as to how the power we are proposing could be modified, perhaps even relating it to not the full value but to a proportion of the value, or something like that, if that will enable the Minister to accept the principle we are trying to get at. I would be prepared to do that, if I saw any glimmer of an indication that the Minister was taking the point we were trying to make. I have not seen that yet, but I am an optimist by nature.

Naturally, I support the amendment. I support everything that Deputy Bruton has said in relation to the principle that we are endeavouring to establish here. As he said, if the wording needs correcting, then so be it. What we have to do is to try to persuade the committee to accept the principle. We have all come across cases, and I know of one case, where a supplier was nearly put out of business as a result of the operations of one of these rogue directors, who got supplies, went into liquidation shortly afterwards and then started up another company while my supplier friend watched what was going on and he could not get his goods back. It is all very well to quote the law, but all of us can quote instances where when somebody goes into liquidation he can bring other small companies down with him. It is a very pleasant task, in financial terms, for all the liquidators who are getting substantial fees as a result of this. It is a principle that if I supply goods to somebody, they are my goods until I am paid for them. If somebody happens to go into liquidation a fortnight later I should be able to get the goods for which I have not been paid. If we accept that principle, then we can look at the technicalities involved in drafting the proper wording here. I certainly believe that should be the case.

I agree with what both my colleagues have said. In the Seanad we made basically the same points but, unfortunately, the Minister at the time would not agree with us. We will have failed miserably as a committee if we do not accept the principle of this amendment. Everybody knows about different companies that go into liquidation and the receiver, the banks and everybody receives payment out of this company except the smaller creditors who are owed money. Until we stand up to these rogue directors we are not going anywhere and the Companies Bill in this section should be trying to establish that principle.

We have all come across instances where suppliers have supplied their goods to a company in good faith under normal contract conditions, and unknown to the supplier the company's liquidation may be imminent. We have also come across instances where certain people have been tipped off as to what was happening and have gone back in to the firm and recovered their goods through various means which may not in all cases be strictly legal; but they have done so and saved themselves quite a considerable amount of money and in many cases have saved their own enterprises. Others who did not take that action have found themselves in difficulty at a later stage perhaps being liable to, for instance, the Revenue Commissioners or somebody else and in turn, a domino effect is activated and there could be a series of "knock-downs" as it were.

One company, not in the beef processing area but in the food processing area, suddenly went into liquidation and a considerable number of suppliers had just supplied their products. Two of the suppliers decided to employ a fleet of trucks in the middle of the night, to recover their goods before security was put on the gates and so on, and the rest of the suppliers received nothing. A considerable amount of hardship was caused and in one case where the unfortunate supplier was depending on a seasonal sale of his goods in order to meet the Revenue Commissioners' bill, he was not able to meet that bill at that stage and had to dispose of further assets in order to do so. The liquidator at a later stage was able to come along and charge a fee. The people who accepted the contract and followed through on the normal credit terms that they were given found themselves at a considerable loss as a result of merely following the natural course of the common contract.

Of course we are concerned about monopoly positions or those who have the dominant position in any market, but there is other legislation to deal with that. It is not appropriate to this Bill. What the Deputies are suggesting is that in every single contract, before title transfers, the goods would have to be paid for in full. That is unrealistic and impractical. It hits at the very root of commercial transactions. It removes the whole concept of risk. I have great sympathy for some of the cases referred to but to deal with farmers by way of putting in a provision that is mandatory on every single contract would be wrong.

In relation to the points made by Deputies Reynolds and Barrett about rogue directors and so on, there are plenty provisions in this Bill to deal with that. Sections 115 and 116 deal with fraud and Part VII of the Bill gives provision for the disqualification of directors and so on. I want to emphasise again the effect this would have on Part IX of the Bill which has been widely welcomed. A new power has been given to receivers to try to rescue companies. If a receiver is going to have the stocks moved from under his feet, how is he ever going to be able to get a rescue package together? For that reason in particular the amendment would have major consequences on this Bill and it would be impractical and undesirable. I cannot be any more helpful than that to the Deputies. There would be also huge implications for job losses if the goods were to be taken from the receiver because there is no way he could put together a rescue package.

The stocks would not disappear from under his feet. As we have been told here in the last few moments, the present law encourages individuals who have inside information to go in, if necessary breaking the law, to retrieve their stocks to the disadvantage of others. The existence of this section would preserve the rights of all such creditors without the necessity to resort to that provision. The receiver would simply have to inspect the books to know how he stands.

I accept that the stocks would not go but the money they represent would and that would make a rescue package impossible.

We are missing the point. The reality is that the company who had supplied the goods can go into liquidation as a result of the company they supply going into liquidation. Therefore, there could be two companies in liquidation as a result of the actions of one. To say that this amendment could cost jobs is quite ridiculous. There is a principle here, that people are entitled to trade and to be paid for the goods they supply. I do not see why somebody who supplies goods to a company who go into liquidation cannot get their goods back if they have not been paid for them. That is not exaggerating the position. We all know that is the case and there has been one instance of it in the very recent past. As my colleagues have said, if you happen to get a tip-off you go and break the law, go in with a group of heavies and get your goods back but the poor unfortunates who do not know what is happening have to suffer the loss of their goods.

The point being made by the Deputy seems to refer almost exclusively, although they said it did not, to farmers.

That is the case most commonly put forward. I accept there have been particular problems. Rather than making this mandatory in every single contract, which would hit at the whole concept of commercial risk-taking and so on, and would put receivers in an impossible position, perhaps in individual cases where there are difficulties, farming organisations might be able to do some deal with particular companies. To change the whole concept of the sale of goods to deal with one or two examples would be wrong. Every creditor has to be put in the same position. To exclude some group of creditors and put them in a superior position to others would not be appropriate.

It does not apply to farmers alone; it can apply to food processors or to any supplier of goods on a major scale, where the product being supplied is of large monetary value and as such it can have a huge impact on the firm supplying.

On any scale.

I agree with the Deputy. It can apply to any form of business. You just cannot state that it applies to the farming or beef industry. It can apply to any business, any commercial enterprise in the country. We can give millions of examples of people who have supplied goods to larger companies which then go into liquidation, leaving the smaller companies in trouble. To say that job losses would occur if we introduce this amendment is ridiculous.

Would Deputy Bruton envisage the amendment applying, for example, in the case that he chose to illustrate — where cattle are bought by a middle-man or cattle jobber and supplied to a factory? Surely the amendment would have no application if somebody buys cattle, for example, for a particular factory or whatever but is not incorporated himself?

This is an amendment to the Companies Bill and obviously it only applies to companies.

Would the Minister remind us of the section of the Sale of Goods Act, 1893, that transfers title? Would she read again the particular phrase?

I can read it for the Deputy again. It is section 17 and the wording is as follows: "Where there is a contract for the sale of specific or ascertained goods the property in them is transferred to the buyer at such time as the parties to the contract intended it to be transferred". In other words it gives freedom to the persons making the contract to decide when the title transfers.

Obviously the appropriate amendments to protect people dealing with sole traders would be amendments to the bankruptcy legislation but we do not have that legislation before us. The basic point I have been trying to get across, and I hope it is one this committee agree with, is that there is a considerable inequality of contractual relationship between certain large incorporated organisations and small sole suppliers. This probably applies in retailing, for instance, between people supplying large multiple stores and also in the case of farmers who supply beef processors. There is increasing worry that the multiple stores, for example, are able to use their economic power to extract very onerous credit terms from small, struggling food manufacturers. In this case the food manufacturers would retain title to the goods until they are paid for. If the large multiple retailer was to get into trouble they would be protected, which is not the case at the moment. That is another important factor. I am sure Deputy Rabbitte is aware of many small food processers who have never really been able to get going properly because the credit terms demanded of them were beyond their power. Those credit terms are rendered all the more onerous by the fact that in the event of the closure of the company to whom they supply they will not get their money.

I want to be helpful. The amendment is obviously a major one. The four Deputies from the Fine Gael Party have raised issues about which we would all share concern, particularly in relation to farmers. I also accept the point that it spreads to other areas as well. The Minister has made the point that this could interfere with the whole flexibility of the law. It could create new claims and new litigations. The obvious thing to do here, rather than vote on it — because we all share these concerns — would be to ask the Minister to take on board these strong feelings and to try to use the other sections in the Bill. She has referred to other parts of the Bill which deal with involvency, fraud and company rescues. If necessary the legislation in these areas should be tightened. We are not arguing about the need to protect the supplier. There are many examples and we can all give some but I accept the principle the Minister has reiterated, that she does not want to see the basic flexibility that is there interfered with. She did say that it would strike at the root of the whole system of credit. This is a radical change. To be fair, Deputy Bruton has raised a number of very legitimate points but rather than divide on the amendment I suggest that the Minister try to take note of these points. There is always Report Stage when the Minister can report back.

Much of the time we are afraid to make changes. The Sale of Goods Act of 1893 is nearly 100 years old. The way people did business in those days, or even 20 or 30 years ago, was entirely different to the realities of today's world. Simply because a practice is built up for 100 years, when it comes to the crunch of saying it is time we changed, what is thrown at us is that the provision in question has been there for 100 years, and that, therefore, you cannot really change it. There is nothing wrong with saying in law——

They are all Progressive Democrats, you know.

There is nothing wrong with giving someone something to hold in trust until they pay for it and if they do not pay for it, one is entitled to get it back. In modern business, there is nothing wrong with that principle. We are not all going to go in after a week and ask for goods to be returned if they have not been paid for. We all know the way business is done. There is a principle here. If somebody goes into liquidation and I have supplied them with a lot of goods — and I might be a small businessman — I am up to my ears in debt because I have borrowed to supply that person. I cannot get my goods back. The liquidator is going to be paid his fees. Everybody else will be paid, but I will not be paid. There is a principle here. It is about time we forgot about the past and started living in today's world. Unfortunately the way business is done today in some instances is not as honourable as it used to be. We have to change our laws to bring us up to date with today's business. That is all we are saying. If the Minister says there is something technically wrong with the wording of our amendment, that is okay. We can discuss that but this committee have to face up to accepting a modern principle in today's world. That, I would suggest, is what we are discussing here this morning.

No, there is nothing at all wrong with the amendment. The drafting, I am advised, is perfect. It is the principle we are opposing. Deputies have to be realistic. This Bill is about adjusting company law to modern circumstances. Nobody is arguing that because legislation dates back to the 1893, as the Sale of Goods Act does, it should be retained. As it happens, we believe the Sale of Goods Act in relation to this matter is adequate although it does date back that long ago. Many of the issues raised to deal with fraud and with directors who behave in a fraudulent manner are dealt with extensively in this Bill. Sections 115 and 116 give extensive powers in relation to dealing with persons involved in fraud. Part VII of the Bill deals with the disqualification of directors. It is not just in relation to the big man-small man concept that Deputy Bruton referred to that there are problems in regard to access to legal representation or medical attention; it goes right across the spectrum. The Fair Trade Commission and the Director of Consumer Affairs and Fair Trade have powers to deal with many of the problems in relation to the grocery trade and so on.

They do not have the necessary staff.

I do not accept that and neither do I believe that this Companies Bill is an appropriate mechanism of meddling with contract law. I believe it is adequate. We know difficulties have arisen; but putting one group of creditors above everybody else is not appropriate. Lastly, and I want to make the point again, we are dealing with situations where companies are in difficulty. In Part IX of the Bill we are giving new powers to receivers to try to rescue companies. Those provisions which have been widely applauded would very much be put in jeopardy if this amendment were accepted because while the stocks may not go from under the feet of the receiver, as it were, the money value they represent would so that it would be virtually impossible for any receiver to get a rescue package together that would have major consequences, not least in terms of employment in the company.

To clarify this, in the case the Minister referred to — the Romalpa case in the United Kingdom — the creditor was successful in getting recompense. Is that correct?

Is there any reason to believe that that would not be imported into Irish law if similar circumstances were postulated?

It is already respected in Irish law, Deputy. As I said, even prior to the Romalpa case, in 1972, two years earlier, a case in Ireland known as the Interview case, established the same principle although the Romalpa case is the more widely known and recognised case. That has been established for a substantial number of years in Irish courts.

The point is — and I am sure Deputy Rabbitte is well aware of this — that the Romalpa case and the Interview case as I understand it allow retention of title clauses to be inserted and upheld if the parties agree to them. Where there is no equality of contractual relationship between the two parties, the weak supplier, be he a food manufacturer or a farmer, is not able to insist on the clause in the first place so the Interview case or the Romalpa case do not come into play.

Chairman

On the question of the wording of the amendment, it seems to me on a literary reading of it, that somebody who can no longer recover the price of the goods because the requisite time period has elapsed, which is six years, will again become entitled to property in the goods if the company to which they supplied the goods go into liquidation. To me that seems to be a fundamental technical difficulty with the amendment. Whatever about the principle of the amendment, I do not think we could realistically incorporate a section into Irish law that would give rise to that unreasonable result. To add to what the Minister has said on the Romalpa case, I would point out to Deputy Rabbitte that in an unreported Supreme Court decision in the last three weeks that case was referred to with approval by three members of the Supreme Court. I think we can take it from that, that that case would be followed in Ireland. It would be followed by the superior courts in this country.

That is not the point.

Chairman

Is Deputy Bruton pressing the amendment?

Chairman

Whatever about the principle as it stands, it would import an illogicality into Irish law. Basically what I am asking Deputy Bruton is if he wishes to reconsider. Is he pressing his amendment?

The point made by you can be sorted out on Report Stage. We want to decide the principle of the issue at this point.

Chairman

In view of Deputy Bruton's insistence in pressing his amendment we will have to vote on the matter.

Question put: "That the new section be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Tá, 4; Níl, 6.

  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.

Níl

  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
Amendment declared lost.

Chairman

We move to amendment No. 132 which again proposes that a new section be inserted in the Bill.

I move amendment No. 132:

In page 89, before section 104, to insert the following new section:

"104.—Section 215 of the Principal Act is amended by the addition in paragraph (d), after the words ‘section 170', of the words ‘or where in the opinion of the Minister there are circumstances suggesting—

(a) that its affairs are being or have been conducted with intent to defraud its creditors or the creditors of any other person or otherwise for a fraudulent or unlawful purpose or in a manner which is unfairly prejudicial to some part of its members, or that any actual or proposed act or omission of the company (including an act or omission on its behalf) is or would be so prejudicial, or that it was formed for any fraudulent or unlawful purpose; or

(b) that persons connected with its formation or the management of its affairs have in connection there-with been guilty of fraud, misfeasance or other misconduct towards it or towards its members.'.".

I am a bit surprised at the outcome of that vote. Corporate power had support from an unexpected source.

I was trying to support the free enterprise system.

There was an element of self-preservation and perpetuation involved here.

You cannot interfere with private enterprise; contractual law must obtain here.

We will definitely put that one in "The Phoenix". This amendment concerns those who may petition for a winding up. Under section 215 of the Principal Act there is a list of those who may petition which at present includes the contributory. It states: "An application to the court for a winding-up of a company shall be by petition presented. . .either by the company or by any creditor or creditors, by any contributor or contributories or by any or all of those parties together or separately." There are some conditions laid down as to how these may act.

Deputy Barrett and I are proposing in the reference to a case falling within subsection (3) of section 170 of the Act a Minister may petition as it is but we are also proposing the Minister may also be allowed to petition for the winding-up of a company in additional circumstances to those contained in section 170 of the existing Act; these are new circumstances which we are proposing in this amendment. These are where it is the opinion of the Minister that there are circumstances suggesting that the affairs of the company are being or have been conducted with intent to defraud its creditors or creditors of any other person or otherwise for a fraudulent or unlawful purpose or where the persons connected with the formation or management of a company have been guilty of fraud, misfeasance or other misconduct towards the company.

I acknowledge that the existing provisions of section 215 contain a sufficiently long list of potential petitioners for the winding-up of a company to cover most likely eventualities. It must be recognised, at the same time, that petitioning to wind-up a company can be a costly process, and possibly even a risky process for a creditor. If a large number of creditors are owed a lot of money but individually none of them is owed a lot they may not be able to get together to petition for the winding-up of a company. As a protection to prevent the continuance in operation of companies that meet the criterion of being conducted fraudulently, we are proposing that the Minister be given an additional power of petitioning for the winding-up of a company. I think this is a sensible addition to the armoury of the Minister and will assist the administration of this legislation.

I realise that the general principle pursued by this and other Ministers is that as far as possible company law should be self-regulating and that creditors etc. should be the ones to bring abuse to light and that the Minister should not be involved on a daily basis invigilating individual companies. I fully accept that and I am not proposing in any way to depart from that general principle but we are simply providing — to use a cricketing metaphor — a long stop, a fail-safe mechanism. I hope I will get support for this amendment because it is a sensible one.

I cannot accept the amendment. Section 215 of the Principal Act contains the provisions applicable to applications for the winding-up by the court and provides that an application to the court can be made by the company or creditors or other specified parties either together or separately. Among the parties who can currently present the winding-up petition is the Minister in a situation covered by section 170 (3) of the principal Act. That section deals with the proceedings on the basis of inspectors' reports and includes, in particular, the Minister's power to initiate actions of various kinds.

By virtue of section 6 of the Bill, however, section 170 of the Principal Act is among the provisions of that Act to be repealed. Moreover, Part II of the present Bill provides that the principal powers relating to investigations are being transferred from the Minister to the courts. I think it is appropriate that Ministers would be distanced from company affairs in so far as possible and that the power would rest with the court.

The Minister is not, however, being totally removed from the scene in that under section 8 he will be entitled to petition the courts to appoint inspectors to investigate the affairs of a company. Subsection (1) of section 8 specifies the grounds on which the court can initiate an investigation on an application from the Minister and these are more or less identical to the terms of the amendment being proposed by Deputies Bruton and Barrett. If inspectors are appointed by the court on the application of the Minister and submit a report under section 2 of the Bill, section 12 goes on to enable the Minister to petition the courts for the winding-up of a company on the basis of such a report. I think this is the correct way to approach the matter and in the circumstances I would be opposed to giving the Minister the power to petition the courts directly for the winding-up of a company as envisaged by the Deputy's amendment without first receiving a full report of the investigation. It is for that reason we are opposed to the amendment.

The fact of the matter is, as the Minister well knows, that these investigation powers are not going to be used at all. We demonstrated this pretty well when we were debating this in the House on the last occasion. The investigation process is so cumbersome, costly and lengthy that it would be rarely, if ever, used and that was the experience of previous investigation procedures which had a less costly and cumbersome process in that they could be initiated by the Minister. Now they will have to be administered by the courts and as we all know courts are the most expensive places to do anything. In order to short circuit this situation I think it is sensible that the Minister should have the residual power to initiate the winding-up of a company. Obviously if the company is not satisfied they can contest that proposal and make their case in court at that point. I do not see any need to have, first of all, a court-supervised investigation and then the whole ground over again when you have an initiation of the winding-up on foot of that investigation.

Deputy Bruton may feel that this power will not be used but I think he may be alone in that. It will be used where necessary and I understand that that debate took place on another aspect of this Bill. The purpose of this is to try to distance the Minister somewhat. If the Minister retains the powers proposed by Deputy Bruton he will be inundated with requests to wind-up companies. What we are doing here is giving the Minister the power to ask the court to appoint people to investigate and following the investigation to seek a wind-up of the company. I think that is reasonable in the circumstances.

Chairman

Is Deputy Bruton pressing his amendment.

Question put: "That the new section be there inserted".
The Committee divided: Tá, 4; Níl, 6.

  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.

Níl

  • Harney, Mary.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
Question declared lost.

On a point of order, what is the procedure for the introduction of substitutes? Is notice required to be given for the appointment of a substitute?

Chairman

Standing Order No. 74, subsection (2) deals with that. It states that: in the absence of a member nominated by the committee of selection to serve on a special committee, a Member of the Dáil nominated by the party to which the absent member belongs may take part in the proceedings and vote in his stead.

Let me ask if the substitutes who voted on this occasion have been nominated by their party and if any evidence has been produced that that is the case. Otherwise I suggest that they should not be entitled to vote.

Chairman

To my knowledge they have been nominated by their party.

May I ask the Chairman the basis for his knowledge of that? Have you, Mr. Chairman, any documentary evidence to suggest that these nominations have been made by the party or is it possible for Deputies to simply walk in here off the street if they happen to belong to a particular party, vote at will and say they are substituting for somebody whose name they may not even know until they come into the room?

Chairman

I think Deputy Bruton is very unfair to question the bona fides of people who come in here on the nomination of their party to substitute for people who happen to be absent. There is nothing in the subsection which requires the Chairman to have any physical evidence of substitutes present with him during the course of a meeting. Deputy Bruton is being mischievous now because his amendment is obviously going to be defeated and he does not want that to arise.

The attendance of the Fianna Fáil Deputies of this committee has been a disgrace. We have a situation in which Deputies who have no connection with the work of the committee are coming in here simply and solely to vote whereas other members who are committed to the work of the committee are finding that their proposals are being outvoted by people who perhaps have not been listening to the full debate. That is not satisfactory.

Chairman

I have been here since this committee was initiated and so far as my experience goes Fianna Fáil are not the only party who have substituted members for people who could not make it on the day. It is not confined to one particular party. It is most unfair of Deputy Bruton to suggest that it is.

I move amendment No. 133:

In page 89, before section 104, to insert the following new section:

"104.—Section 231 (2) (a) of the Principal Act is amended by the addition of the following words at the end of the subsection:

‘save that he shall not have power, without the consent of the court, to sell any real or personal property, or other interest belonging to the company, to a former director of the company or to any person connected with a former director of the company within the terms of section 25 of the Companies Act, 1989’.”.

This is an amendment to section 231 of the Principal Act. Section 231 relates to the powers of the liquidator. The amendment we propose relates to the particular powers of a liquidator to sell the real and personal property of the company by public auction or public contract.

Obviously there could be a situation where a company goes into liquidation and a former director who has not had any continuing involvement with the company will find that property that belongs to him may still be on company premises. Under the existing legislation there is a fear that a liquidator could sell that property in a fashion that would be unfair to the former director in that it was his property and he was in no way liable for the company's debts. While we are not suggesting in this amendment that a former director's property shall in no circumstances be unprotected, we are simply saying that the court should be required to give its consent to such a procedure.

I have misrepresented my amendment. The purpose of this amendment is somewhat different. I am sorry for wasting the committee's time. My explanation was inaccurate. The amendment in fact is the direct opposite in its intention. Where a company has been liquidated and the former director has been involved, there could be goods belonging to the company which the former director can get at a knock down price because he has a privileged relationship with the company or because of his particular knowledge. Our intention is to prevent a situation in which the ordinary creditors of the company do not get a fair deal because the liquidator can only sell to a former director who may perform a phoenix-type operation on the company by setting up a new company with the assets in the same place. To that end, the permission of the courts should be required for the sale to a former director of a company who have gone into liquidation. In certain circumstances, if there is fair open competition for the goods and the former director happens to be the highest bidder, there is no reason he or she should not buy. On the other hand it would be undesireable if, in the case of a closed market, the former director has excessive strength over the liquidator. That is the purpose of the amendment. I am sorry for the former explanation being at variance with the facts but, I corrected it just in time.

Chairman

This is a good time to adjourn until next week. Is it agreed to meet again on Tuesday week, 6 February, 1990 at 4 p.m., subject to agreement with the Minister? Agreed.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Committee adjourned at 12.45 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday, 6 February, 1990.
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