I query the reference in the schedule to the admission of spectators to sporting events. What is going to be caught in there?
SECTION 174.
Question proposed: "That section 174 stand part of the Bill".
Delegates to Ard-Fheiseanna.
We are talking about participation of individuals in commercial sporting events. It does not cover normal football grounds.
I would be surprised if it did.
What does it cover?
It covers commercial squash and golf courses. It covers also complexes for sporting purposes attached to hotels.
It would not cover the Munster Hurling Final.
No. That remains exempt.
Would it cover professional soccer fixtures?
No. Normal golf clubs are exempt but commercial clubs who do not permit membership will be liable.
Participating spectators who pay a fee will be liable. The intention is not well defined here. The Minister might have a look at that definition on Report Stage. Deputy Noonan's question is a legitimate one.
I raised this question earlier on because I cannot draw the distinction between what is a golf club and what is a commercial golf course? For example, there are several golf courses being built in my constituency. They are being developed commercially. Some form of membership of the golf courses is being sold. I suppose a significant number of the fees will be from people such as tourists and the like, so where is the border line being drawn?
When you look at any of these it is very easy to find out where the line is being drawn. Some of the commercial golf clubs do not want the ordinary member. They want people to pay a fee. I will clarify this in the following note:— Because of the decisions of the Appeals Commissioners many leisure orientated businesses operating golf courses, tennis courts, squash courts, ten pin bowling alleys, skating rinks, swimming pools, jacuzzis, saunas, quasar games and the like are treated as being exempt from VAT. Exemption arises because the charges to customers are regarded as being in respect of either lettings of immovable goods or as admissions to sporting events, both of which are exempt activities. This has created an anomalous situation where some commercially organised activities, like snooker halls, are taxed at the standard rate while others are exempt. The section makes two amendments to the first schedule to ensure that this anomaly is removed and that the provision of commercially organised sports facilities is no longer exempt from VAT. They will in future be taxed at 12.5 per cent rate in accordance with the new paragraph of the Sixth Schedule which is inserted by Section 177. Private sports clubs such as golf, tennis, squash and other clubs which operate on a non profit, voluntary or private membership basis are not liable to that.
What about green fees?
No. Green fees are not liable if it is a golf club that is a non profit making one such as the normal golf club that used to exist.
This refers to a specifically dedicated commercial venture?
What about pitch and putt courses? Will a farmer working one be liable for VAT?
Yes. It is a commercial activity.
If, however, the farmer allowed people who used the facility to become members, and they had to pay a green fee on a playing basis, surely there would be a lacuna there?
There are some ways it could be managed.
Chairman
We have reached 5 p.m. As it is now 5 o'clock, I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dail of 12 May —"That the amendment set down by the Minister for Finance to Part III of the Bill and not disposed of is hereby made to the Bill and in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said part, other than section 176, that the section is hereby agreed to".
Question put and agreed to.
Chairman
It is intended that we will have a sos for one hour.
6.30 p.m.-7.30 p.m.
I was going to suggest if we had a sos at 6.30 p.m., that we might actually finish at 7.30 p.m. If we did an hour now it would seem to me that it would be possible to make a lot of progress. We have more or less covered chapter 7.
We would have to come back for voting time, which is set down for 8 p.m. and 9 p.m.
The other issue is that the Labour Party vote on their Private Members' Bill is at 7.30 p.m. There are peculiar arrangements in the House as well. If we finished for the 7.30 p.m. vote, many of us would have to go anyway to vote so we are going to lose a half hour. If we pressed ahead for an hour and broke for half an hour we would probably finish in the last half hour.
Sos 6-6.30 p.m.
On the Question of the breaking times, which I am quite happy about, but with reference to setting precedent and entering a new style of working, I would like if we could stick to a voting time and that if there are votes that we would have the votes at the allocated times.
Chairman
We are tied by the Order.
We are only tied by the Order in relation to voting. As far as I am concerned — and I speak for everyone on this side of the House — we comply with the Order in respect of the voting times. The suggestion is that we will continue on until 6 p.m. We will have a sos from 6-6.30 p.m. We resume at 6.30 p.m., and if a vote has to be taken, then we will take it at 6.30 p.m. It may very well be that there will be no division called at 6.30 p.m.
But we will be back at 6.30 p.m.
We will be back at 6.30 p.m. for such a vote, should such a vote take place.
Are we paired in the other House?
You and I are paired.
I am totally happy. I see no difficulty in facilitating the vote in the other House. Labour have their members' vote but that is at 7.25 p.m., and we have plenty of time. We can break and go across and come back. If we can finish the agenda prior to the 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. votes, so be it, but I would certainly like that we should be here for votes at 6.30 p.m. and 7.30 p.m.
Chairman
Is there a point in having sos from 5 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. and recommencing at 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.?
Are you saying you would prefer if we kept going now until 6.30 p.m.?
Until 6.30 p.m., and we could break for half an hour. We could then pick up the vote in the House as well if we have no work on, and be back for 8 o'clock which is the next vote after that.
I am not looking for a comment. I am only giving an indication.
I think we should work on it until 6.30 p.m. and we could have a look at it at that stage.
Chairman
To work straight through until 6.30 p.m.
It was agreed at the Whip's meeting that the votes would, in fact, be at those specific times, and that was clear.
If there are to be votes, we cannot have the votes at any time other than those specified on the Order. That is not in dispute. What has been suggested is that we work for an hour, have a sos, and then come back at 6.30 p.m. We may or may not have a vote at 6.30 p.m. It will be a nominal one, in a sense. We will then see where we will go.
Chairman
If we were to break and recommence from 5.30 p.m. — 6.30 p.m. and have the vote immediately? It is going to be quite unsatisfactory to come back for a vote at the end of a sos. I think that if we had the vote at the end of the debate——
What Deputy Noonan and Deputy Quinn have been suggesting seems reasonable to me which is that we keep going until 6.00 p.m., have no vote at 6.00 p.m., come back at 6.40 p.m., and have the wrap up vote at 7.30 p.m.
Chairman
Would that be all?
If there is a call for voting at 6 p.m. we have to have it.
Chairman
The next vote is at 6.30 p.m.
If everyone who is here now comes back here at 6.30 p.m., we will have no problem.
Does Deputy Rabbitte know that there is a vote here at 6.30 p.m.? If he knows there is a vote at 6.30 p.m., he will be here.
Our next vote is 6.30 p.m. and everyone will be here at 6.30 p.m.?
Chairman
There are no arrangements beyond that.
It is only a conversation.