Special Committee on the Judicial Separation And Family Law Reform Bill,1987 debate -
Wednesday, 29 Jun 1988

SECTION 26.

Amendment No. 60 not moved.

Mr. Calleary

I move amendment No. 61:

In page 13, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following subsection:

"(2) The rules of court, and any established form or course of pleading, practice or procedure, for the purposes of any enactment or jurisdiction affected by this Act shall, pending the due making of rules of court, apply for such purposes with such adaptations as may be necessary.".

The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that pending the making of the rules of court for the purpose of this legislation by the rules committees, proceedings may validly be taken under the existing rules, and any established form or course of pleading in practice or procedure affected by this legislation may be used subject to any adaptations that may be necessary.

Mr. Shatter

Could I say just one thing about this amendment as it might be relevant to amendment No. 60. The one thing that is essential in the context of this Bill is that the rules of court that provide for the commencement of proceedings when separation proceedings are brought should, of course, by virtue of the other provisions in the Bill, allow you to bring the proceedings by way of one application. This is what Deputy Harney's amendment stated. However, by virtue of the fact that you initiated proceedings by way of a judicial separation action and all the rest is ancillary relief, the rules of court that are made should be rules which provide for one set of court proceedings. Could I draw to the Minister's attention a concern I have with his amendment? The Bill provided a period of six months from commencement date for the relevant rules to be made. I think it is quite reasonable if there is a six month period that those rules be made to provide within that six month period for the commencement of proceedings. Our experience with the Status of Children Act has been that rules have not been made.

Chairperson

Deputy Harney, could you please stay a little longer we have to arrange dates for meetings and I would like, if possible, that all parties be represented.

Mr. Shatter

I have one concern about the Minister's amendment which I am going to agree to now, but I would like him to come back on Report Stage. It would seem to me that if we have the same hiccup problem with the rules committee with this Bill as we now have with the Status of Children Act, following the passage of this Bill people could be left in a position whereby if they wished to seek relief under this Bill they could be left for some months in a position, if the rules committee has not done its job, where they would have to initiate proceedings under a number of different forms. You could still have multiple court proceedings flying around. Could I suggest to the Minister that, an amendment be made on Report Stage — and I do not know whether I would be procedurally in order in bringing forward such an amendment but the Minister would be, because of this amendment — that there should be an interim provision which would read that "pending the making of rules of court, the proceedings can be initiated under this Bill under the existing rules as they apply to divorce a mensa et thoro proceedings”. It means that in the Circuit Court you simply issue a matrimonial civil bill in which you would seek all the ancillary relief, including the Partition Act relief, and in the High Court you bring a petition pending new rules. Otherwise, you come back to the situation, for some months after the Bill became law, whereby two or three different sets of court proceedings would have to be brought. I am concerned the Minister’s amendment could have that effect. I am merely asking him to look at that for Report Stage.

Mr. Calleary

This is what the intention has been, but we will have a look at the specific points Deputy Shatter has made.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 26, as amended, agreed to.

Chairperson

There is a matter arising which is basically the arranging of meetings during the recess period. The Minister has already indicated that he wishes to have everything ready for Report Stage in October.

Mr. Calleary

The Minister has asked me to say that in so far as he can possibly manage it he will guarantee that Committee Stage will be finished before the Dáil resumes. With that in mind, he hopes that the committee might agree to two full day sessions during the third week in September and, if necessary, two other sessions in the first week in October. I understand we are talking about maybe 21 and 22 September and 4 and 5 October, if that is agreeable to the committee.

Mr. McCartan

I would be a little concerned that we are putting it so far back in the recess. If my records and recollections are correct it took six meetings to get through a portion of the Bill. If we get bogged down in deliberations in late September I would be worried that we are leaving ourselves too short a time to try to catch up and get the business cleared so that the decks are cleared for the October session. I thought perhaps to keep the matter fresh and before us we should get this work done in July. I would be anxious to address the remainder of the Bill earlier in the recess rather than later so that we will not run out of time.

Mr. Calleary

I can appreciate Deputy McCartan's concern. However, the reality is that under certain amendments which are to Part II, the Attorney General will not have them until the beginning of September. Therefore, what the Minister has suggested is that the Committee Stage of the Bill, and he is guaranteeing this to the committee here, will be finished before October and before we will resume and that there can be the four days full sitting if necessary.

Mr. Shatter

I think the Minister originally indicated that when we got through this section and the previous section he would want approximately four to six weeks to facilitate the Attorney General's office. I appreciate that the month of August is not a desirable month for all of us to be coming in here on committee. I am anxious to bring deliberations of the committee to an end. I took the view two weeks ago, the Minister agreeing, that we would complete Committee Stage before the Dáil resumed in October. That was a very considerable step forward. I am also assuming that the amendments which the Attorney General's office are preparing may be of such detailed nature that we would want a few days to consider them before we have the next committee meeting. On the basis that we will have two full days in September as opposed to a couple of hours in an afternoon, which is what we have been having to date — two full days, I assume would be 10.30 a.m. to 5 p.m. with a break for lunch on the Wednesday and Thursday of the third week of September and, if necessary, the same on the first Wednesday and Thursday in October — that would be four full days.

Many a Finance Bill has completed Committee Stage in that period of time and we would be uninterrupted by other matters. I am quite happy to agree to that. I am assuming that we will see the Attorney General's amendments at least seven days before we hold that meeting and I am equally assuming the Minister might confirm this. If we do not manage to complete our business in the first week in October having had the four full days, I hope I am correct in assuming that we can have a similar full day session in the following week for as many days as are necessary to ensure that we complete it before the Dáil resumes in October.

Miss Harney

I agree with what Deputy Shatter has just said if it is not practical to have the meetings in July. Could I ask the Minister for the October dates, please?

Chairperson

I am a bit concerned about meetings going on as late as 21 and 22 September followed by others on 4 and 5 October. I was wondering if it would be possible to have agreement on the first two days meetings on 14 and 15 September rather than 21 and 22 September, and maybe the second meetings two weeks later on 28 and 29 September, leaving more leeway. In case difficulties arise they could be catered for. There is a real danger there because members are given to being rather verbose. They have extensive and particular knowledge of the various sections.

Mr. Calleary

I am somewhat at a loss. This is my first experience and the dates I got were ones I had agreed with the Minister taking into account the answers he had got from the Attorney General's office. I would be very reluctant to give a commitment to the committee about an earlier date and then have the Minister explain to the committee later on that, sorry, he could not meet that commitment because he had not got sufficient information.

Mr. Shatter

I am anxious to ensure that if we do come back in September we will be in a position to do business and get on with it. The worst of all worlds would be to come back for a full day's meeting in the second week in September to discover that we did not have the amendments.

Mr. Calleary

That would be my reading of it also.

Chairperson

If I may suggest Tuesday 6 September as a closing date for the submission of amendments to Parts II and IV of the Bill.

Mr. Shatter

In fairness, none of us knows what the Minister's amendments will be. I would hope that we might get the Minister's amendments by around 7 September and that everyone will be perhaps foreclosed from tabling amendments after, say, 14 September. I certainly want to have a look at what the Minister intends to table and I am sure other Deputies would have a similar view. I think we should not foreclose on amendments almost two and a half weeks before the meeting. I think it would be reasonable to foreclose a week beforehand.

Chairperson

I am concerned about having a meeting as late as 21 and 22 in view of what we are trying to achieve. Would the committee allow me to discuss with the Minister the possibility of having a meeting on 14 and 15 September, if that is possible?

Mr. Cowen

There is no problem.

Mr. Calleary

I am never one to disagree with the Chair, particularly when the Chair is a lady. However, I can only tell you what the Minister said to me.

Chairperson

I appreciate the Minister's position.

Mr. Calleary

He is also in a bind in relation to his amendments coming from the Attorney General. I certainly would have no objections.

Miss Harney

Can I clarify the last date for receipt of amendments?

Chairperson

I have suggested Tuesday 6 September.

Mr. McCartan

For the Minister's amendments, a week later for us.

Chairperson

Why should one person be discriminated against over the other?

Mr. Shatter

I think we would be anxious to receive the amendments by 7 September. If we had all of them in by 14 September we could have the meeting on 21 September. I accept we cannot stop the Minister tabling additional ones between 7 and 14 September. Perhaps the ideal would be that we could get his amendments by 7 September. We generally know what he has in mind. Then everyone would have another few days thereafter to consider what amendments they may table.

Mr. Calleary

I will put that to the Minister and the Chairperson might like to talk to him as well.

Chairperson

As of now we will agree to 21 September and give me leeway to try to get 14 and 15 September. Is that not agreed? I am just saying that there will have to be three or four days sitting before the Dáil resumes — I hope the committee is in agreement with that — so as to be ready for Report Stage in October. The closing date for amendments is Wednesday, 14 September.

Mr. Shatter

What time will we meet at — 10.30 a.m.?

Mr. Calleary

In fairness, there are a number of people from rural areas and 10.30 a.m. is very early. John O'Donoghue is from Kerry which is a three hour journey.

Mr. Shatter

I suggest we meet from 11 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. but we will have a break for an hour or hour and a half for lunch.

Chairperson

5.30 p.m. is a problem for rural Deputies.

Mr. Shatter

I suggest from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. with an hour for lunch from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. we will take the first day from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. and the second day from 10.30 a.m. to 5 p.m. That should be a great incentive to bring it to a conclusion.

Chairperson

Thank you very much for your co-operation. We look forward to seeing you on 21 September.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Special Committee adjourned at 6.30 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 September 1988.